"When I am sitting in a cell, *then* I will call it fascism...

[Cerridwen]

but, not before and not until." It can be fascism without each and everyone of us, or even any of us, sitting in a cell.

I've seen several posters who are of the opinion (based on their posts) that if "XYZ!!!!!! happens, it's fascism!!!!!"

Then, as frequently happens "XYZ!!!!!!" happens and "fascism" doesn't appear to happen and "we're" all relieved until the next time.

Then I see posters ask, "What will it take, what will be the final straw that causes the U.S. citizens to fight back?"

My assertion is...there is not nor will there be a final straw. The mechanisms needed to create fascism are here, in place and operating as designed.

From "Fascist America, in 10 easy steps" (checks are mine):

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy (check)

2. Create a gulag (check)

3. Develop a thug caste (check)

4. Set up an internal surveillance system (check)

5. Harass citizens' groups (check)

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release (check)

7. Target key individuals (check)

8. Control the press (check)

9. Dissent equals treason (check)

10. Suspend the rule of law (check)

(read the article for details)

Can we, please, now, stop waiting for martial law, death camps and concentration camps or some declaration of dictatorship to recognize that we have a "kindler, gentler fascism" on our hands? Can we, please, stop waiting for some huge, single event in which the fascists take over? They have.

We may never actually wind up in a cell or at a camp. Does that make it less than fascism? Not quite fascism? Is veering "rightward" toward fascism a justification to proceed carefully? Is it only fascism if there are dead bodies involved? Let's call it what it is. Then...now, we can proceed accordingly. Get the word out...it's fascism...already!

[Brigid]

1. By the time we're sitting in cells, it's too late.

But many people still don't get that. Yes, we are headed well down the road to fascism if we don't stop it now. At least people around here can wrap their heads around that idea. On other boards, they think I'm being an alarmist. These are dangerous times we live in.

[Cerridwen]

3. Well, I guess it's time for "We, the Alarmists"

to amp up the volume.

I hope we can wake "them" before it's too late; if it's not already too late.

[ananda]

100. It's fascism with a capital C.

The Corporate kind of fascism is what we are facing now.
There's so much money and organization that they cut off
any protest movements or noises of change right away.
The corporate and money interests own the press and
don't mind if people talk.

Talk is cheap and pretty worthless right now.

The jails are for the poor and minorities.. to keep them
powerless and disenfranchised... right now.

[seemslikeadream]

2. It's not here yet, so what's it got to do with you?

Song of Choice

Early every year, seeds are growing
Unseen, unheard, they lie beneath the ground
Would you know before the leaves are showing
That with weeds all your garden will abound?

If you close your eyes, stop your ears
Hold your mouth, how can you know?
The seeds you cannot see may not be there
The seeds you cannot hear may never grow

In January you've still got the choice
You can cut the weeds before they start to bud
If you leave them to grow higher, they'll silence your voice
And in December you may pay with your blood

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth and take it slow
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Everyday another vulture takes flight
There's another danger born every morning
In the darkness of your blindness the beast will learn to bite
How can you fight if you can't recognize a warning?

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth and then you know
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Today you may earn a living wage
Tomorrow you may be on the dole
Though there's millions going hungry, you needn't disengage
For it's them, not you, that's fallen in the hole

It's alright for you if you run with the pack
It's alright if you agree with all they do
If the fascist's party slowly climbing back
It's not here yet, so what's it got to do with you?

The weeds are all around us and they're growing
It will soon be too late for the knife
If you leave them on the wind that around the world is blowing
You may pay for your silence with your life

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth, they're never there
And if it happens here, they'll never come for you
Because they'll know you really didn't care

Peggy Seeger

[Cerridwen]

6. So, true...so very true...

Thank you.

Many here understand this. I hope we can enlighten the ones who don't...yet, understand.

[Democrats_win]

4. surveillance system includes cameras on every corner & facial recognition technology.

Every intersection with new stoplights has 4 cameras.

[Cerridwen]

7. And at your local ATM - I think those cameras were some of

the first put in place to protect from the "constant" threat (well reported in the media) we face when we go to an ATM.

[Ghost in the Machine]

5. The suspension of Habeus Corpus & Possee Commitatus sent us down

the slippery slope into fascism, IMHO. We are no longer a Democracy, we are now a fascist dictatorship. All that's waiting is for Bush/Cheney Cabal to announce it, in not so subtle terms as they do now.

This is why impeachment is imperative NOW. We can't afford to wait until the neocons declare martial law and shut down government. It'll be too late then, and it's almost too late now.

[Cerridwen]

12. See, the thing is, I don't think they'd ever be so stupid as to

actually declare martial law or admit to running a dictatorship complete with a shadow government.

I think that what we have now is a 21st century version of fascism; much the same outcome as the 20th century fascism without all the dead bodies to disgust "the masses". (Please, note: I am not in any way dismissing the horror of the Holocaust or massive murders of humans.) What I am saying is that it's possible to have a fascist government and society without declaring it one.

Surveillance, traffic stops, drug testing for employment, credit checks for employment, credit checks for obtaining insurance and subsequent health care, static wages while costs increase, obscene profits by corporations, "elected" offices occupied by those who represent corporate interests, a shrinking middle class, increases in the number of people in poverty, increases in the number of people imprisoned for specious reasons in corporate controlled prisons, businesses who exist solely to feed off the misfortune of people, and I could go on and on.

We're there. It's not around the corner. It's here.

[loudsue]

28. I believe you're absolutely right, Cerridwen.

It's here.

:kick:

[Cerridwen]

54. As much as I don't like being wrong, I'd love it if I were wrong

this time.

Thanks, loudsue.

[Virginia Dare]

59. James Madison told us as much...

see post #53..

[Ghost in the Machine]

79. I agree that we are there now. But I don't think it's too late to stop this

train before it completely derails. We need to light a fire (figuratively) under the asses of our elected officials and MAKE them represent us.

They'll have to get to the point where they either have to
get impeached, resign or openly declare a dictatorship and suspend government to stay in power. The last option WILL get real ugly, real quick.

We, the People, have got to stand together on this issue and get it in the mainstream talking points. Our very way of life depends on it.

[Cerridwen]

80. I agree. It's not too late, at all.

Though we have a lot of ground to cover to get back to what we once thought we had.

[krispos42]

107. By the time they declare martial law...

we don't notice any effective change.

Already in Pittsburg the police have decided to rove around in an armored car in response to six unrelated homicides in 24 hours.

And the same people screaming 'fascism is coming to America!' seem to be, most of them, the same people trying to disarm the general populace to one degree or another.

SOLDIERS AND POLICE are supposed to be different. Soldiers are aimed at enemies from outside the country. They are trained to kill those enemies, and their supporters. In fact, “killing people and breaking things” are their main reasons for existence.

Police look inward. They’re supposed to protect their fellow citizens from criminals, and to maintain order with a minimum of force.

It’s the difference between Audie Murphy and Andy Griffith. But nowadays, police are looking, and acting, more like soldiers than cops, with bad consequences. And those who suffer the consequences are usually innocent civilians. The trend toward militarizing police began in the ’60s and ’70s when standoffs with the Black Panthers, the Symbionese Liberation Army, and the University of Texas bell tower gunman Charles Whitman convinced many police departments that they needed more than .38 specials to deal with unusual, high-intensity threats. In 1965 Los Angeles inspector Daryl Gates, who later became police chief, signed off on the formation of a specially trained and equipped unit that he wanted to call the Special Weapons Attack Team. (The name was changed to the more palatable Special Weapons and Tactics). SWAT programs soon expanded beyond big cities with gang problems.

Abetting this trend was the federal government’s willingness to make surplus military equipment available to police and sheriffs’ departments. All sorts of hardware is available, from M-16s to body armor to armored personnel carriers and even helicopters. Lots of police departments grabbed the gear and started SWAT teams, even if they had no real need for them. The materiel was free, and it was fun. I don’t blame the police. Heck, if somebody gave me a Bradley Fighting Vehicle to play with, I’d probably start a SWAT team, too—so long as I didn’t have to foot the maintenance bill.

more

[pitohui]

8. well for some people it's all about "them"

what do you do? i don't doubt that plenty of people are already sitting in a cell, no one will be honored by being called a political prisoner, they will be called a drug dealer or a child molestor and tossed in with the rest

we have all the evidence we need (dna) that random victims can be thrown into jail and convicted of serious crimes at whim of prosecutors, it would be naive to think this ability to convict the innocent is never used to get rid of a "nuisance" -- prosecutors seem to use this routinely on a local/county level all the time to get rid of unpopular folks, so why wouldn't the feds use it?

anyway i think it's fascism enough to suit me when people are being swept off to secret prisons in foreign lands, well, not so secret actually, they make sure we know enough to understand that we'd better stay in line

[Cerridwen]

20. My OP is dedicated to "them"

:evilgrin:

I want to get people to think about what we define as fascism and how it is possible for fascism to exist, right in our face, while we keep looking for "the signs" which may never come.

Since you asked "what do you do?" I'll give my short answer. For starters, I started telling everyone I know that, yes, it is fascism - see it, know it - it did happen here. Show them. Tell them. Let the horror start to creep in on them. "Awaken the sleeping giant"

Let's see how long our "representatives" keep their powder dry as their constituents begin to demand an end to fascistic laws...one voice at a time...one dollar at a time...one marcher at a time...one boycott at a time...one ltte at a time. It may take a while. I may not ever benefit from it. Hell, it might not even work. But I'm sure as hell gonna give it my best effort and my loudest voice.

[pitohui]

51. well i'm a little more pessimistic than that

we can't even get our fine federal gov't to drop water on people who are dying of dehydration in an american city on international teevee, we're going to get them to answer for their fascism?

look, they didn't overthrow the legitimately elected gov't in 2000 in order to play nice and listen to our side of the ball game, sure, speak out, protest, talk to your neighbor, sure i do all that, but it doesn't seem to do any good, in whispers "everybody" agrees that we have a serious problem here w. the war, w. disaster response, w. the economy collapsing, w. the destruction of almost every industry in favor of obscene hyper profits for the oil industry -- but "everybody" knowing this and saying this doesn't seem to be doing v. much

i don't know what to suggest at this point, conventional protest is ignored and not reported, the media is under "their" control, a million people are in prison already and they always seem to have room for one more, i just don't know, we really have to watch what we say or we could lose our jobs, which means losing our health insurance, which means losing everything once we get sick...it's just so endless and just such a mountain, all of us aren't behind literal bars but most of us except the v. rich such as gates and soros pretty much ARE behind bars that keep us silent if we want to have any security at all

maybe the most useful thing i can do at the moment is stop spreading my discouragement! we do need to keep going, it's just so hard sometimes

[Cerridwen]

61. If I could nominate your post,..

You completed, and beautifully I might add, my thoughts on why so many of us know what's going on, why so many deny what's going on and why we see so (apparently) little in response.

I don't think you're spreading discouragement at all - I think you've outlined exactly why so few of us feel we can do anything about what's happening in the U.S. Revolutionaries are rarely those within a society who have families to feed and a mortgage or rent and/or are "gainfully" employed.

As you noted, we may not "literally" be behind bars, but we are prisoners just the same.

[Jackpine Radical]

9. They don't have to put us in cells at all to be fascists.

Cells are a crude and expensive control technique when you have hypnotically programmed mass media total information control (or nearly so; they will have to nail down the net), efficient automated electronic surveillance, and a whole bunch of science-fiction-inspred crowd-control devices (e.g. microwave pain projectors). Fascism has evolved very far in the last 70 years.

[Virginia Dare]

50. Exactly right..

they are controlling us everywhere we go now, the bank, the airports, the Drs. office, we are constantly being programmed.

[Greyhound]

10. Yep, we're there all right, and have been for quite some time. Putting an exact date on it

is the only debate, and boy, do we love to debate it.

I suppose arguing over when it happened and whether or not it really is because this fascism isn't exactly the same as some other fascism, is much easier than looking at what is and deciding what each of us is willing to do about it. Contemplating the idea that 'I' will have to lose some of whatever it is 'I' believe is so much more important than liberty, is just too distressing to trouble 'my beautiful mind' with.

[shadowknows69]

11. There are already plenty of dead bodies involved n/t

[Cerridwen]

15. I take your point and I agree.

I didn't address that part because it appears that some people have to actually see dead bodies up close and personal before it becomes personal for them.

And, as sad as it is, some dead bodies are seen as more tragic than others. "Ours" versus "theirs"; "soldiers" versus "civilians"; during "war" versus "natural disaster".

Thanks for adding this point.

[seemslikeadream]

13. fascism will come to America in the name of national security

A Different Kind Of Fascism (1967)


Huey Long once said, "Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism." I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security."


Jim Garrison, Playboy Interview, October, 1967
"What worries me deeply, and I have seen it exemplified in this case, is that we in America are in great danger of slowly evolving into a proto-fascist state. It will be a different kind of fascist state from the one of the Germans evolved; theirs grew out of depression and promised bread and work, while ours, curiously enough, seems to be emerging from prosperity. But in the final analysis, it's based on power and on the inability to put human goals and human conscience above the dictates of the state. Its origins can be traced in the tremendous war machine we've built since 1945, the "military-industrial complex" that Eisenhower vainly warned us about, which now dominates every aspect of our life. The power of the states and Congress has gradually been abandoned to the Executive Department, because of war conditions; and we've seen the creation of an arrogant, swollen bureaucratic complex totally unfettered by the checks and balances of the Constitution.

In a very real and terrifying sense, our Government is the CIA and the Pentagon, with Congress reduced to a debating society. Of course, you can't spot this trend to fascism by casually looking around. You can't look for such familiar signs as the swastika, because they won't be there. We won't build Dachaus and Auschwitzes; the clever manipulation of the mass media is creating a concentration camp of the mind that promises to be far more effective in keeping the populace in line. We're not going to wake up one morning and suddenly find ourselves in gray uniforms goose-stepping off to work. But this isn't the test. The test is: What happens to the individual who dissents? In Nazi Germany, he was physically destroyed; here, the process is more subtle, but the end results can be the same.

I've learned enough about the machinations of the CIA in the past year to know that this is no longer the dreamworld America I once believed in. The imperatives of the population explosion, which almost inevitably will lessen our belief in the sanctity of the individual human life, combined with the awesome power of the CIA and the defense establishment, seem destined to seal the fate of the America I knew as a child and bring us into a new Orwellian world where the citizen exists for the state and where raw power justifies any and every immoral act. I've always had a kind of knee-jerk trust in my Government's basic integrity, whatever political blunders it may make. But I've come to realize that in Washington, deceiving and manipulating the public are viewed by some as the natural prerogatives of office. Huey Long once said, "Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism." I'm afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security."
http://bloggn.petercase.com/index.cfm?mode=entry&entry=EDD5A9E8-B5E7-3F32-9B66DC5F74C7AE1F

[Cerridwen]

17. Thank you so much for posting more information.

I'll add to your Huey Long quote with one by Sinclair Lewis:

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

It would appear, that the fascists are using every weapon in their arsenal to calm our fears of what we're so sure fascism is.

A cross, a video camera, patriotism...

[Virginia Dare]

53. Who needs Nostradamus, when you have Mr. Madison..

I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.

James Madison

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

James Madison

[supernova]

14. I argue that the Bush misadmin

are not fascists proper, with all the goose-stepping imagery that implies.

I argue that, for the purposes of learning from history, the "loyal Bushies" are a kind of test run for American fascism. They are now exploring, experimenting, seeing how far to the extreme right they can go and not get a reaction out of the American people. And not suffer legal or personal consequences for their immoral and illegal behavior.

How many scandals now have we here at DU been outraged about and the general public says "Eh." Meanwhile, they have learned that about 29% of the American public would be happy to live with party-loyalty-above all fascism.

The Bush admin doesn't worry me so much in the end, because they will be out of power at the end of next year. A few will be caught and penalized (more than a few will go to prison I hope). Mostly I hope it's everyone connected with the DoJ and election stealing.

What does worry me, is there is some one(s) right now, in that 28%, who is looking at all this and thinking "I can do this! The American people don't care about human rights; they don't care about due process; they don't care about the rule of law as it is presently understood. I can change the American political system to what I want so that it specifically benefits me... and only me."

It isn't George W Bush who concerns me. But who comes after him certainly does. That's the real reason why we must catch and prosecute these foul people to the fullest extent of the law.

[Cerridwen]

16. Yes, they are. And...they are NOT the only ones.

That was the point of my OP. Look beyond the "traditional" definition of fascism at what is happening in the U.S. today.

"The Bush admin doesn't worry me so much in the end, because they will be out of power at the end of next year." Do you honestly think this limited to "the bush admin"? Or even to just those "who come after him"?

This encompasses far more people than "the bush admin" and the mechanisms have been being put in place long before the (s)election of 2000.

This has been a long time in the works by more people than we have names or faces for. That some are just now seeing what's happening doesn't mean it just now happened.

That, is what my OP is about.

[supernova]

19. I don't think we're

disagreeing here, Cerridwen.

Do you honestly think this limited to "the bush admin"? Or even to just those "who come after him"?


No of course not. My post is about who is still out there and how much of a green light they are getting from the current admin.

[Cerridwen]

23. Thank you. Sorry, I misread your post.

I think I see your point. This administration may make it acceptable for people to act in certain ways much the same way that reagan and his anti-people policies gave permission to certain segments of our society to "relish" their own prejudices and such or the way hitler's policies made it safe for the "general populace" to commit such atrocities.

I hope I got that right.

[Hubert Flottz]

18. I've said it before but I'll say it again...

THE NAZIS ARE HERE!

[matcom]

21. Tell you what: "When YOU are sitting in a cell, *then* I will call it fascism...

i'll sure as hell fight them before *I* find myself in *YOUR* place.

[Cerridwen]

26. If your response is directed at me, I think you might like to read

the entirety of my OP.

[Cleita]

22. If they keep blindfolded about this issue, they may get their wish.

They might want to look at the saga of Rev. Neimoller in Nazi Germany, who although an enthusiastic supporter of the Nazis and Hitler in the beginning ended up in a concentration camp and was freed by the allies after WWII. He was the one who wrote the famous essay about not speaking up when they came for the Jews, then the communists, the Catholics, etc., then eventually they came for him but there was no one left to speak for him.

Also, these criminals are more and more beginning to resemble the Nazis more than just fascist ideologues. The means that Hitler used to invade Poland are almost identical to how we invaded Iraq. They lied about everything.

But first they insisted that Germans living in Poland where being mistreated and in danger. Saddam gassed his own people. Then there was an alarm sounded about the Polish army amassing on the German border. We don't want the next incident to be a mushroom cloud. Then there were faux diplomatic efforts that the Germans claimed the Poles were uncooperative about. Saddam refuses to admit he has WMD's. A fake incident was staged where prisoners were dressed in polish soldier uniform and shot. The Nazis claimed that they had tried to attack a German radio station on the border. 9/11, 9/11 ad nauseam

And there are many, many more if you read all the details but these are for starters. You decide.

[Cerridwen]

25. Thanks, Cleita. Yet more valuable information.

Another quote that runs through my head a lot is by Harriet Tubman:

"I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

edit: punctuation

[Neoma]

24. K & R

[Kelly Rupert]

27. It isn't fascism, if for only one reason

Orderly, voluntary transfer of power upon loss of legitimate election.

[Cleita]

29. Hitler did things legally on the surface just like BushCo does.

And like BushCo, Hitler changed the laws gradually to consolidate his power and still give the appearance of legitimacy. Also, neither governments were elected. Hitler was appointed by Weimar Republic President Von Hindenberg under duress actually after he had sold the Germany down the river with their version of the Patriot Act (name escapes me right now) after the Reichstag fire. We all know *w was appointed by the Supreme Court after stealing the 2000 election.

[Kelly Rupert]

34. There's no comparison.

Hitler steadily stripped power from the Reichstag. For all his bending of the Constitution, Bush has never actually broken it. It would have been both impossible and useless for an anti-Nazi party to take effective control of the German government in 1940.

[Cleita]

37. Oh yeah and BushCo wasn't doing that.

:sarcasm: We were able to barely get a majority in Congress because something happened that they hadn't counted on, overwhelming participation at the polls in 2006, that even their trickery to compromise elections couldn't fix the outcome. Also, Hitler had something they don't yet, a private army, the SS, that intimidated the population. They are getting there though with their newly minted and very successful privatized, mercenary armies under the aegis of Blackwater, Kellog, Brown and Root. Welcome to a jackbooted future if we don't recognize what is going on and stop it.

[Kelly Rupert]

38. dupe delete

[Kelly Rupert]

39. Oh, come on

2006 voter turnout: 40.4%%
2004 voter turnout: 42.5%

While turnout was higher in 2006 than in 2002, it was nowhere as high as in 2004. And turnout was expected to be that high, too, so don't say they didn't expect it.

Also, Blackwater and KBR are nothing new. Private security firms have been contracting with the military since time immemorial. There's a wide, wide gulf between "guarding oil wells in Iraq" and "terrorizing Baltimore."

[Cleita]

40. I believe that there was a bigger voter turnout, that a) didn't get

to vote because of long lines and other reasons, b)Didn't get their votes counted and these were liberal votes because Republican precincts always seem to have nice, airy voting places with plenty of booths, etc.. Minority and liberal neighborhoods have cramped voting precincts, fewer booths and longer lines. There is plenty of documented proof that this happened in 2006, that voters were purged from lists as felons who weren't, that voters were sent to the wrong precincts, that absentee ballots weren't counted and other denials of voting rights. It was only because the liberals that were able to vote showed up in record numbers that we took both houses, barely.

Blackwater, et al has grown into a corporate behemouth since this administration. It was once just a minor player but today it's huge and growing only since we went to war. Also, why did they show up in New Orleans after Katrina where only the National Guard and regular military once went? They are being used domestically more and more and it's scary.

[Cerridwen]

43. "a wide, wide gulf between "guarding oil wells in Iraq" and "terrorizing Baltimore."

Uh, yeah, I'd say the distance between Baltimore and New Orleans.

[Virginia Dare]

55. Lincoln had Pinkerton...

which was the precursor to the secret service. Pinkerton went on to a very lucrative career in union busting. Something about those Republicans, eh?

[Cerridwen]

44. Very true. The German people didn't have the examples left

by hitler and his policies that we have today.

So, which part of the Constitution should we wait to be broken before we call it fascism? Would it be the right of free speech? At which point we don't dare speak out. Would it be the right to peaceably assemble at which point we don't dare come together to fight the bastards. Would it be the right of suffrage? At which point we won't have to worry about whether or not elections are valid as there just won't be any. Would it be the right to trial?

Which right do you have which you hold in such small regard that you would watch it "bent" rather than take an unpopular stand to prevent its being broken?

[krispos42]

108. Didn't Martin Luther King Jr. say that...

Nothing Hitler did was illegal?

Those that hide "it's wrong" with "it's legal" deserve what they get.

[Cerridwen]

31. I disagree. But, you knew I would, right?

:evilgrin:

First, your definition presumes old school revolution and change versus what I referred to as "kindler, gentler fascism" which would, by it's new nature, require a less violent image in order to be accepted.

Secondly, you presume a "transfer of power" based solely on a new occupant in the White House. While that definitely can give a group access to expanded powers, I don't know that it means one group gave up power and that another group took over. Corporations still give billions of dollars to politicians; the politicians may change but the corporations stay the same.

And thirdly, I'm still not convinced there was a "legitimate" election.

[Kelly Rupert]

36. I'm referring, as in the picture, to 2006,

in which the Democrats won convincingly, despite the wishes of the ruling administration. Not exactly evidence of fascism.

Moreover, what substantive rights have you yet lost? You may criticize the government to your heart's content. None of your daily freedoms have been stripped from you; save your "right" to pass airline security 10 minutes more quickly. Our government indeed is closely tied to business, yes. However, that is hardly new or shocking; that has been the case since the late 1800s at least. America is not substantively more or less a corporate state than it was in 1940.

Calling it fascism is politically naive, to say the least.

But what of the list? All subjective.


1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy (check)
We've been at near-constant war or hostility since the Spanish-American. Interestingly, it's the times between war that we've seen socialism and class warfare break out--a prime motive for both WWI and the S/A war, IMO.

2. Create a gulag (check)
What? No. Political dissidents are not rounded up and sent to work camps. Sorry.

3. Develop a thug caste (check)
Also no. There are no brownshirts or anything comparable.

4. Set up an internal surveillance system (check)
Sort of. No strong evidence it's been used politically--certainly not to any substantive end, such as arrests of Democrats.

5. Harass citizens' groups (check)
Sort of, but not really. Citizen's groups are "harassed," but in the same way they've been harassed forever. Certainly not as bad as the labor/union clashes of the early 1900s, or even the civil-rights marches of the 1960s. Until the National Guard starts gunning down protesters or strikers, I think we've lost perspective.

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release (check)
Again, no. Bad arrests occur frequently but are expected. There is no targeted, fear-inducing campaign designed to stifle dissent.

7. Target key individuals (check)
Certainly no. In fact, the most-dangerous key individuals to the administration have just taken over the most powerful branch of government, and did so peaceably.

8. Control the press (check)
Sort of. The press was lazy and went along for the ride in 2002-2005. Now they seem more on our side. Ever since Katrina, they've stopped giving Bush a free pass on everything. They don't have the spine I wish they did, but they're not as bought-and-paid-for.

9. Dissent equals treason (check)
Back in '02, '03 maybe. Now the dissenters are in Congress.

10. Suspend the rule of law (check)
Not to any meaningful extent. They've expanded executive powers, but not at all to the same levels of any actual fascist government.

[Cerridwen]

So, if I understand you correctly, you're willing to wait for

the type of atrocities historically associated with fascism to occur before calling it fascism? Because, as I've noted and as others here have noted, by that time - it's too late.

"I'm referring, as in the picture, to 2006, in which the Democrats won convincingly, despite the wishes of the ruling administration. Not exactly evidence of fascism."

Nor evidence of democracy. Nor even proof that there isn't fascism. You're talking elections, I'm talking mechanisms of power of which the electoral process is only one - and a questionable one these days. You're talking Democrats taking over from republicans; I'm talking about mechanisms for fascist power which are in place for use by either party.

"Moreover, what substantive rights have you yet lost?"

My house isn't burning down but I'm sure glad there's a fire department. I'm not ill or injured but I'm glad to know there are hospitals and doctors out there. I'd prefer to *not* wait until I need those things to insure they are available. Same thing with my civil rights. Just because I don't need them right this second, I sure am glad they're there for my use as I need - well, unless I were of middle-eastern appearance in which case I might be sitting in Guantanamo wondering about what the hell happened to the American ideals of speedy trial, jury of one's peers, innocent until proven guilty. Wait! Those are rights aren't they? So, as long as it's not me being denied rights I can ignore what's happening? I don't think I'm capable of being so self-absorbed I can ignore what's being done to others. Or maybe I just have a practical streak which reminds me that if they can get away with doing it to someone else, they might be able to justify doing it to me.

"Our government indeed is closely tied to business, yes. However, that is hardly new or shocking; that has been the case since the late 1800s at least. America is not substantively more or less a corporate state than it was in 1940."

Yes, that point was buried in my OP. The mechanisms that are in place are not new and did not just suddenly come about because the Supreme Court selected our president for us. Nor are the mechanisms the results of just a few in this administration. I did not pin it to a particular time or date in history nor even to a particular party. My bad. Maybe I should have spelled it out.

"Calling it fascism is politically naive, to say the least."

Not calling it fascism shows an ignorance of history and the ways in which power can be obtained by "peaceful" and insidious means. It is possible to get the peoples' permission to control them; in fact, it's the most effective way in which to do so.

"But what of the list?"

Yes, what of that list? Did you read the article from which it was taken? I'll leave you to do that and see if your disagreements with the author's premise still holds. I'm quite sure they will still hold. But, please, consider reading it anyway.

edit: left out a word

[Greyhound]

66. There hasn't been a transfer of power in this country for over 50 years.

The names and faces and parties have changed, but the power remains where it has been since FDR.

[rug]

30. Wait a minute, Bush doesn't have a mustache.

[Cerridwen]

32. No? But I've heard he has a beard.

Ewwww, that was ugly. I should go wash my hands after typing that.

[Virginia Dare]

57. No, he IS a beard for Pickles, of course..

or maybe Condi? :shrug:

[Cerridwen]

62. LOL - I got it backwards?!

I guess my viewpoint was skewed.

:rofl:

[many a good man]

33. My definitions of fascism and communism

Communism is when government takes control of business corporations. Fascism occurs when corporations take control of government.

In our democratic tradition the Golden Rule has always prevailed: he who has the gold, rules. However it was never quite fascism until recently because the rule of law and individual rights enshrined in the Constitution had been respected to a large enough degree.

Now we are witnessing a systematic destruction of the rule of law, domestic and international, and the trampling of our individual rights. It seems the American people are less aware of the rights that are the cornerstone of our democratic tradition. The "Creation myth" of our founding was once always hailed and drilled into the heads of all our citizens. It now seems to have been replaced by a sense of entitlement to consumerism and global military domination.

The powers that be are now taking advantage of this lapse on the part of We the People. The authoritarian right wing have legitimized themselves in the eyes of almost half the voters, a large enough minority to allow them to bulldoze their ways into the halls of power. Only an awakened and emboldened citizenry can repel this tide.

Are we up to it?


Note: go this web site to see a visual representation of how our language and our perception of ourselves has changed since our founding: http://stateoftheunion.onetwothree.net/index.shtml

[Cleita]

35. Yes, they are 380 degrees opposite of each other, yet they

end up meeting in the same place on the circle with demagoguery and totalitarianism running the government and complete loss of liberty and freedom for the ordinary citizen.

[Cerridwen]

45. Hey, great site at that link.

I bookmarked it for more in-depth reading later. What caught my attention at my first quick glance was the grade level of Washington's SOTU versus the grade level of subsequent SOTUs. 22.4 grade level with Washington down to a low 9.1 for Johnson's; bush's latest was 10.something. There may have been higher and lower, those were the ones I noticed. Wow, we've made such progress. /sarcasm

[ismnotwasm]

41. Remember that interview with Kurt Vonnegut?

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/44/

"I myself feel that our country, for whose Constitution I fought in a just war, might as well have been invaded by Martians and body snatchers. Sometimes I wish it had been. What has happened, though, is that it has been taken over by means of the sleaziest, low-comedy, Keystone Cops-style coup d’etat imaginable. And those now in charge of the federal government are upper-crust C-students who know no history or geography, plus not-so-closeted white supremacists, aka “Christians,” and plus, most frighteningly, psychopathic personalities, or “PPs.”

To say somebody is a PP is to make a perfectly respectable medical diagnosis, like saying he or she has appendicitis or athlete’s foot. The classic medical text on PPs is The Mask of Sanity by Dr. Hervey Cleckley. Read it! PPs are presentable, they know full well the suffering their actions may cause others, but they do not care. They cannot care because they are nuts. They have a screw loose!

And then there is this:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0412-32.htm

"Fascism in America won’t come with jackboots, book burnings, mass rallies, and fevered harangues, nor will it come with black helicopters or tanks on the street. It won’t come like a storm—but as a break in the weather, that sudden change of season you might feel when the wind shifts on an October evening: Everything is the same, but everything has changed. Something has gone, departed from the world, and a new reality will have taken its place. All the old forms will still be there: legislatures, elections, campaigns—plenty of bread and circuses. But “consent of the governed” will no longer apply; actual control of the state will have passed to a small and privileged group who rule for the benefit of their wealthy peers and corporate patrons.
To be sure, there will be factional conflicts among the elite, and a degree of debate will be permitted; but no one outside the privileged circle will be allowed to influence state policy. Dissidents will be marginalized—usually by “the people” themselves. Deprived of historical knowledge by a thoroughly impoverished educational system designed to produce complacent consumers, left ignorant of current events by a corporate media devoted solely to profit, many will internalize the force-fed values of the ruling elite, and act accordingly. There will be little need for overt methods of control.

The rulers will act in secret, for reasons of “national security,” and the people will not be permitted to know what goes on in their name. Actions once unthinkable will be accepted as routine: government by executive fiat, state murder of “enemies” selected by the leader, undeclared wars, torture, mass detentions without charge, the looting of the national treasury, the creation of huge new “security structures” targeted at the populace. In time, this will be seen as “normal,” as the chill of autumn feels normal when summer is gone. It will all seem normal."

--Chris Floyd, November 10, 2001 Moscow Times (English edition)

[Cerridwen]

42. "There will be little need for overt methods of control."

That's it! We will enforce control over ourselves in the "interests" of safety and security for ourselves and our own. And we will justify said control as keeping "ourselves" safe from the "unruly masses" of which "we" would never be a part. /sarcasm

Thank you. Those articles are dead on. :(

[baldguy]

46. If you wait untill you're sitting in a cell, then it'll be too late.

[Cerridwen]

48. I'm glad to see you agree with my point.

Thanks.

[Swamp Rat]

47. check

;)

[Cerridwen]

49. Of all your art, I think I like this one the best...

and it makes me the saddest.

:(

Thanks, Swamp Rat - looks like it's check and mate.

[Swamp Rat]

52. Thanks for the Eisenhower pic.

I hadn't seen that one before. :hi:

[porphyrian]

56. Who cares what we call it, what do we do about it?

I don't want to get shot, so my actions are pretty much limited to things that don't seem to work. What now? Do I have to get shot to change things?

[Virginia Dare]

58. I don't think it necessarily entails getting shot..

but we do need to release ourselves from the shackles of corporate control.

[porphyrian]

60. I'm all for that in theory, but how?

If they've bought our government and own everything we need, what can we do?

[Virginia Dare]

63. Go back to living off the land?

give up all the toys and the starbucks coffee? Our hand will probably be forced eventually anyway when the resources start to run out, and global warming starts kicking our asses for real, if not in our generation, in the next one.

It's really hard to imagine at this point, but we might just get kicked back to the horse and buggy one day.

[porphyrian]

67. I'm growing a first-generation batch of bell peppers right now.

I planted a bunch of seeds from some I got for a salad one day, just to see what would happen, and a bunch of them sprouted. About twenty or twenty-five plants survived the winter, and now they're flowering. I've got one pepper about the size of a half-dollar I'm keeping my eye on, too. I want to see how big it gets, or what critters will or won't get it, and the flowers should become more peppers later on. I plan on planting the seeds from whatever I harvest as well. But this isn't a real solution to corporate control of everything.

I want to know how we can get our country back, how we can make corporations once again serve us rather than us serving them, and you seem to be saying there's nothing we can do but figure out how to live without.

[Cerridwen]

71. deleted "stutter" post n/t

[Cerridwen]

deleted second "stutter" post n/t

[Cerridwen]

72. It's a start.

"I plan on planting the seeds from whatever I harvest as well. But this isn't a real solution to corporate control of everything."

It's a start.

We've let it get too far. We've become too entangled - as you noted upthread. We don't need to live without - but, we do need to learn to live differently.

See my post #68.

[EnviroBat]

123. I planted a garden Sunday for the first time in my life.

I gotta tell ya kids, it's a religious experience. I was very relaxing, and meditative, and peaceful. In fact I haven't experienced such a feeling of peace in a loooong time now. While I don't think that I could grown enough on my own to sustain me and girlfriend year round, it certainly lit a fire under my ass about buying from the local farming community. We have a wonderful local ecological farm near us that sells meat, poultry, veggies, and eggs. I plan to do most of my "shopping" there from here on out. I takes time, effort, and love, but I think it is possible to cut the corporations out of most of our lives. Hell, they've proven to us all that they would just as soon kill us anyway. Just look at the great job the fucking FDA has been doing to protect our food supply lately...

[porphyrian]

127. I've been gardening as therapy since my divorce. It's great.

Just wait until you get something you can eat from it.

[Cerridwen]

68. We move from identifying the problem to addressing

the characteristics and systems of the defined problem. Do all, some, or even none of the list below. These are just some recommendations.

1. Recognize that there's going to be a long road in front of us. It's taken us decades to get here; it doesn't "fix" overnight. Understand that it won't seem as though much is happening; perhaps not for a long time.

2. Help craft laws which gradually erode corporate power - some areas to address: interest rates (usury), corporations "right" to buy out consumer credit contracts and change the contract, universal default clauses, corporate welfare, corporate involvement in the electoral process, corporate accountability to "We, the People", corporate personhood, and whatever others you can think of. It may be one step forward for every five back for a while - but we have to continue on.

3. Help craft laws which empower "We, the People". That means finding and electing representatives who truly represent us. Hold those already elected accountable. Decide if it's more important to "win" or to "stay true to our values" or, perhaps, we can find a way to do both? Workers' rights, a living-well wage, excess profits, socialized health care, use of credit scores to categorize us and deny us health care or insurance or jobs, drug testing to work for a living is way out of line; in short, we have to begin to roll back the anti-people laws and policies which we've allowed for the past several decades.

4. Join a good union. Support a good union. Help them to advocate for workers' rights. Hold them accountable.

5. Buy very little. Even if you can afford to buy more. Then convince your friends and neighbors to do the same. Learn to pay cash. Are credit cards really a necessity; or are they a trap? Buy used. Repair "stuff" rather than throw it out and buy new.

6. Educate yourself and others. Advocate for yourself and others. Question everything. Ask "who benefits?"

7. Teach the next generation so they are less fettered with "stuff" than we are and can progress more easily away from fascism.

Not very glamorous, huh? Just the same ol' stuff which takes more patience, effort and time than most of us have and isn't nearly sexy enough to hold our attention.

8. Add your own ideas here. I've just skimmed the top.

[porphyrian]

89. You're offering solutions, and I appreciate that, so don't take this as an attack...

...but I don't agree with all of that. I'll take them by your numbers.

1. Change is slow except when it isn't. I'm not just saying this because I'm an immediate-gratification junkie, but not all change happens at a glacial pace. Some really does happen over night, even if it took decades or centuries to get there. Just as I believe we shouldn't expect things to change immediately, we shouldn't limit our possibilities to a long term adjustment. The best way may be fast.

2. I completely agree with what you point out needs changing, but if our voice is already second to corporate influence in government, how in the hell are we supposed to get any of that passed? They control the ball, we don't. We can't even get a Democratic Congress to impeach a blatantly criminal and Constitution-disregarding administration. Hell, they haven't done much more than politely offer non-binding legislation. How likely is it that they'll pass campaign finance reform with any real substance?

3. If people don't run who will actually represent We, The People, how can we elect them? The political system is now such that good people get slaughtered by the primary in most cases, with a token "radical" or two making it to the finals for triangulation purposes. And those who do make it end up beholden to those who write the biggest checks every time. Shit in, shit out, on us.

4. There are no good unions in the South with very few exceptions. Our "right to work" laws (read "right for businesses to fuck labor over") see to that. Hell, half the barely-paid working grunts down here have been brainwashed to hate unions, whatever sense that makes, and trying to change their minds about it is like talking a fundie out of believing in God.

5, 6 and 7 I agree with completely.

[Cerridwen]

90. I will take it in the manner given - and I'll return it in like manner.

1. Even if change occurs in some dramatic "big bang" fashion, we'll still take a long time de-tangling many threads which have tied our hands as "We, the People" - or - we'll have many years of putting something else in place which can support us as we "recover" from whatever "big bang". I'm "happy" with either; my main concern is that some people appear to be looking for the quick fix - there may not be one. I'd love to have an immediate change - but, I'll continue to work toward the gradual. "Plan for the worst; hope for the best"

2. My best response to you about how we do that is to refer you to the long journey of women's suffrage and civil rights. It can be done; it takes persistence.

3. We find them, we recruit them, then we stick around and support them. Easier said than done. But do-able. First, we may have to get past our tendency to be fickle and gullible. I get whiplash from reading posts lauding the efforts of a candidate which are, almost instantaneously, followed by derision because the same candidate proved to have human traits. One example - "Edwards is my candidate!! Rah, rah, Edwards!!!" followed by "OMG!!!! Edwards bought a multi-gazzilion dollar house?! I can never vote for him!!!" We'll have to learn to examine coldly and carefully what is spoon fed us by the corporate media.

4. At the risk of sounding flip - start one. Call it a guild instead of a union. Teach about the power of collective organization and bargaining and how it can improve ones "lot" in life. I know, it sounds simple on "paper". I'm not in any way denying what you're saying is real and is a real pain-in-the-backside. In the meantime, join forces with like-minded people with whom you can define what the job-place should look and be like. Here's one alternative Working America. It's affiliated with the AFL-CIO. Maybe there are other members in your area? Maybe there are people in your area who just don't know yet, that they want to be members?

Again, I'm not saying go do all these things, but I do hope to give you ideas and alternatives.

I think my point is - try - keep at it. Or, as Yoda said "Do, or do not. There is no 'try.'" I use the "death bed scenario" as one of my guides. Will I be lying on my death bed wondering what would have happened if only I had done something - or regretting that I had given up and done nothing? But that's me. You'll do, or not do as works for you.

In the meantime - we're two voices among how many? who advocate for change.

:toast:

[porphyrian]

93. Cool. I think we're pretty much on the same page.

I've said it a couple of times before, but when I run out of hope, I've got plenty of spite to get by on until it returns. Gives me the shits in the meantime, though.

I haven't always done the right thing, and some of it has sucked pretty hard, but I don't really have any regrets. I intend to keep it that way. And I don't want to be the guy who was standing right next to the button that saves the world and didn't push it. My sister's little girl made me think of that.

At least it's not boring, huh?

:toast:

[KitSileya]

94. Another piece of advice - stop taking opium.

Turn of the tv, don't watch those pacifying programs at all. Encourage others to do the same, either directly or indirectly by getting them out of the house when American Idol is on, or trying to change the subject when it pops up in conversation.

[Cerridwen]

99. Yes! Thank you for pointing that out.

I can't believe I forgot that. Oof!

I'll even add a suggestion; to make up for my previous oversight - read Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business to understand the insidious nature of the "entertainment" industry and how we can protect ourselves from it.

[conspirator]

64. NECESSITY is mother of invention. As long as people are materially well no one will do anything

As long there is food, shelter and no one has to work like a slave, then there is no reason to fight.

[Greyhound]

69. Food and shelter are already denied many and what is the definition

of working like a slave? Does 12 - 14 hours a day, 6 and 7 days a week count, or does one have to actually be beaten?

[conspirator]

109. Working like a slave is:

actually it may vary from individual to individual. I have never worked more than 40 hours per week, and whenever any employer tried to "convince" me otherwise I have given him the finger.
But I think I can give an universal definition of working like a slave:
when its Sunday and you dont feel like going back to work on Monday, then you are working like a slave.
Life in US is more than bearable for the majority of people, otherwise there wouldnt me any immigrants trying to get in.

[Greyhound]

110. Not certain what "more than bearable" means, but if I'm guessing correctly,

you are saying that it sucks less here. No argument that there are many worse places, but is that a justification? I'd also point out that there are many places better as well, and we are more than capable of duplicating, if improving on, that situation.

"We suck less" is hardly a ringing endorsement.

[Cerridwen]

113. Okay, so the way you put that made me

LOL

Maybe we could put it up on the Statue of Liberty. Replace Emma Lazarus' famous:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Now we can just say - "We suck less"

[Greyhound]

116. Glad I could provide a chuckle, some of the replies in this thread could depress a hyena, n/t

[conspirator]

115. I am with you. This pyramid scam society sucks. But the machine is too strong for us to fight it

face to face. We need to fight the system from the inside, inflitrate and sabotate it. I have been doing my own share of sabotage and trying to open peoples eyes. But only someone high in the pyramid can make significant damages.

[camero]

65. Americans probably won't do anything

It'll probably be like the Germans and they'll make sure the trains run on time. After all this I don't have much faith in American values anymore.

[Cerridwen]

70. Are you an American?

Will you do "anything"? Will you be happy the "trains run on time"?

I'm pointing out something which you've shown. I'm speaking in generalities not to you, camero, specifically. I don't want you to think I'm raggin' on ya. :D

Many of us talk about how "Americans" are not aware or engaged in the political process. And then move on as though "that's just the way it is" and therefore, why bother to make an attempt because "they" won't do anything anyway. If you're willing to do something about a problem, why don't you think that there are "others" out there who would, too? Isn't it possible that rather than accept that awfully, defeatist attitude that there might be others out there who are willing and able to do at least as much as we do ourselves?

How about this - some Americans probably won't do anything - some others, however might do something. Why give up before beginning?

Just a thought I'm toying with.

[camero]

118. Yes, I'm an American

But I think our society and gov't are at the point where merely protesting is just an exercise in futility. And that both parties are only interested in the further aquisition of more wealth by any means necessary though they both put on a good show to hide this fact. The problem is that most americans are really ok with the supposed defending of american "interests" as opposed to defending american terrritory which was the sole purpose outlined in the constitution of a common defense while some are not but not enough.

Obama's sabre-rattling toward Iran is a case in point. Could they be a threat to us in the future? Yes, possibly. Though I doubt that they will ever likely be a threat to american territory. Are we at the point where diplomacy won't work? No, not by any stretch of the imagination.

When it happens I'll have two options. Hide the Anne Franks and endure the torture from the gov't which will more than likely happen or leave the coutry, which with the beauracratic situiation, it may already be too late. Only a vast overhaul of the political system will change this.

[sproutster]

92. Jeezus, we found contaminated meat -- USDA said it's good - no outrage

[JohnnyRingo]

73. If you don't know your rights....

Then you've already lost them.

Good article
Stark and to the point

If you aren't concerned for our way of life, you haven't been paying attention, which is the goal of the current admin, with scandal overload.

Each outrageous violation on our freedom is quickly followed by another, more serious infringement, until the masses become numb and begin skipping straight to the sports section.

[Cerridwen]

77. Or the latest about Paris, or Anna or criminey, who are the others?

Wait, don't tell me. I don't care.

[Solly Mack]

74. !!!!!

The constantly shifting line to cross that's drawn over and over again as people march backward off the cliff is denial.


Sad, init?


Current wanna-be tyrants and future wanna-be tyrants now know just how much Americans will take and still not do anything about it...they know how far they can push and still get away with it....instead of fighting back, people are, sadly but truly, adapting...making excuses..drawing the line in the sand over and over again...SPLAT

K/R

[Cerridwen]

76. Hey, Solly! Good to see you.

I, sometimes, feel like the lone frog hollering about the water getting too hot. I like your imagery better, I think.

This thread, however, has shown me I'm not alone. Hmm, I wonder if I should let stand the frog image?

Oh well, I've been equated with worse. ;)

[Solly Mack]

81. I actually like frogs :)

Whenever anyone says anything my sister thinks reflects on their denial of the current state of affairs, she always says, "Pass the bath salts, please" (frogs in pot)

[Cerridwen]

83. :)

I love your sister's sense of humor. Thank her for me, please.

One of the things I miss most during this awful time, is my sense of humor. It's more and more difficult for me to hang onto it.

And now, is the time I need it the most. Thanks, Solly. You made me smile!

:D

[PassingFair]

105. Here's a snap of some of my neighbors....

[mmonk]

75. Yep, not everybody can be in jail in a fascist state.

Some have to do their bidding and be their support.

[BrainGlutton]

78. Look, let's keep the actual history of fascism in mind here.

It is what happens when a certain kind of right-wing populist movement comes to power -- a movement with both authoritarian and socialist, class-war tendencies. The post-Goldwater American conservative movement is notably lacking in the latter. Part of the fascist dream is to restructure society from top to bottom, and you'll find nothing like that in W's actions or rhetoric. Nor are the capitalists reduced to de facto salaried managers of state-controlled industries, as in Hitler's Germany. Nor is there any corporatism as there was in Mussolini's Italy. ("Corporatism" means, not putting the business corporations' interests above all else, but giving power to civic assemblies representing industry, labor, etc. -- see this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) The only things our present state of affairs has in common with fascism are authoritarianism, radical nationalism and aggressive militarism.

[Cerridwen]

82. See posts 41, 22, 25 and 74

for starters.

[immoderate]

95. Are you of the impression that corporations don't write the laws?

That's kind of naive.

--IMM

[iamthebandfanman]

84. amen

AMEN!

i try and explain that very situation to at least 1 person every day.
fascism is here and it is thriving.

i dont under how people can be so naive to it to be honest.
i mean, where do people think all the nazi's went exactly?
I guess ww2 put an end to all fascism ? ha!
heck, the united states had a large nazi party leading into the war...
think all those people just disappeared?
most of the awful things in the world are being done by fascists under the identity of something else. they are all working together. dont be fooled by their many names and many so called 'organizations' or 'cells'. they are all one. working together on a plan of fear, disruption, and corruption.
they are the cause and the effect.

they know we are onto them, hence the use of 'islamo fascist'. they want us to see only one sect. one group of radicals. the distraction while they do their work of running the global market and economic domination worldwide.

its all about the money.
them dollar dollar bills ya'll.

[meldroc]

85. To quote Claire Wolfe, "America is at that awkward stage...

"It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."

Granted, Claire Wolfe's a libertarian, so I doubt anyone here is going to agree with her much, except for the above sentiment.

Let's just say, without violating the DU rules, that I am fiercely asserting my Second Amendment rights at this point...

[Cerridwen]

86. "Classic libertarian" or an "I like to smoke pot" republican?

:evilgrin:

We get so caught up in labels (yeah, fascist is a label - paradox and irony all in one sentence) and stereotypes that we forget how once those ideologies were defined and how they came about before being appropriated by those who would pervert their original intent.

I grew up in a "live and let live" family. I think that was once considered "classic" libertarianism. There are plenty here to correct me if I'm wrong. ;)

Regardless, cool quote. It reminds me of a question I had while watching "Bobby"; why is it that the more populist leaning politicians have been assassinated, yet the corporate leaning ones are rarely shot, much less killed? At the risk of much censure here, the deletion of this post and the loss of many karma points, "our side" needs more target practice. It's a joke; a very sick joke, but it's just a joke. I don't advocate violence nor murder, but I do have a twisted sense of humor.

[Evergreen Emerald]

87. The coop has already happened--USA has been taken over by the neo-cons

And that is why Bush, Wolfowitz, Gonzales, Cheney are all still in power. We have lost. We just don't know it yet. And because we don't know it yet, we are treading too lightly: no impeachment, no cutting off funding, no legal protests for signing statements, patriot act.

If we don't get those voting machines un-"fixed" before the next election, we are in even deeper trouble. At least we discovered the plan to replace the federal attorneys with drones. That may help. But, seriously, what other plots are we overlooking? It is a total coop. Every aspect of government is being replaced with "Goodlings." (Dang that's a great name for a drone!).

[Cerridwen]

88. "what other plots are we overlooking?"

Please, look farther back in history. Many "plots" have already come to fruition. Many goals have already been obtained. This isn't about a coup in 2000. This has been a long process. This goes beyond the bush family; beyond, even, the republican party and the neo-cons.

There is some great information throughout this thread. There is a long history which brings us to this moment in time. The voting machines and the attorney purge are just the latest - and most blatant - tools in subjugating the will of the People.

[Evergreen Emerald]

97. I agree with you

As I stated--this is a total take over. The plots go deep and beyond what we can even imagine. And, likely you are correct, that it has been going on lots longer than we imagine as well. They are becoming more blatant, likely because they have more power and less chance of overthrow.

It is terrifying really when you think about it. I think we will have to impeach.

[Cerridwen]

101. I sometimes wonder

if bush is in fact, mucking up "their" plans? Things were proceeding nicely for them, with many of us unaware of what was being done to us or in our name. shrub comes along and makes it apparent for all who care to look; there was some subtlety about how reagan went about it. he targeted those easiest to villify; "corrupt" unions, "welfare queens" and welfare "cheats", to name just a few. shrub's actions have all the subtlety of a 2"x4" upside the head; it may knock you unconscious for a while, but the pain when waking is gonna piss off a whole lotta people.

[sproutster]

91. Might as well be in a jail cell with the economic pressure I feel.

It crushes me each and every day. Why would they jail me when I can work for them and not have time to do anything else but worry about the bills and go to work?

[Cerridwen]

96. You bring up a very good point.

I started to include the idea that many of us are so "imprisoned" by our daily needs that actual physical imprisonment is redundant. It is an insidious form of control that requires no additional prisons, no violent coup with which to wake and unite the masses and has the added advantage of being completely legal and can be blamed on the person who finds themselves in such straits. And as you noted, "they" enjoy the benefits of your production. Quite a monstrously, efficient "means of control". Oh, and btw, you're not alone; I and others I know are in the boat with you. Ahoy, matey! :hi:

[lonestarnot]

98. Calling it fascism is easy, now what you gona do about it?

[Cerridwen]

102. See posts 68, 89, 90, 94, 99 for some ideas...

Reading through this thread might prompt additional ideas.

Calling it fascism is easy; getting others to agree it is fascism, not so much. Try stopping someone on the street or telling a co-worker that we're living in a fascist society and see what kind of reaction you get. Hell, even here at DU there are posters who aren't ready to call it fascism yet. I posted my OP to get some agreement amongst allies and those of a "like" mind so we can move to discussing what we can do about it; then doing it.

My questions for you are; do you agree it's fascism? what are you doing/going to do about it?

edit to add: that last didn't come out as I intended - let's say it this way - what are you doing/going to do about it? Please, share your ideas.

[conspirator]

112. Those are all good ideas. But boycotting the wage slave lifestyle only works if everybody does it

not just a few of us anarchists who have always followed those basic independence from employers and money principles.

[Cerridwen]

114. So, while a whole bunch of people are talking about how

ineffective boycotts are when only "we" few are doing it - there may be "a few" others out there who'd participate as well, if they knew they had company. Or if they thought it was effective. But, "boycotts aren't effective unless masses of people suddenly up and decide to participate - all at once." Nice catch-22. It doesn't work unless "everyone" participates and "everyone" won't participate unless it works.

Sounds like we need to work on that message and recruit "a few" more of us "anarchists" while we're at it. Maybe we could even start to craft it as a "mainstream" lifestyle choice rather than "limited" to just "anarchists."

My post above had a list of about 7 options; including a couple of ideas about changing the "wage slave lifestyle"; and a request for additional ideas. What about the other 6 options you didn't address? Do you have any other ideas?

[conspirator]

119. I think the core of the problem is the wage system.

That's the control system and it needs to be attacked first.
Enforced reduction of working hours would solve a lot of problems (would a whole thread to elaborate), and most important people would have time to educate themselves and have a more active participation in how the country is ruled.
Nobody (company managers especially) likes to talk about it, and you are labelled a lazy bum if you say that you would like to see less working hours. This is the core of the all cabal I think.
So if we have to march for any laws for me this would be the first.
Just look at France, as soon as the fascist Sarkozy rose to power he has shown a carrot to the french people saying we can have an economy like the UK, but for that I have to beat you my stick and make you work longer than 35 hours.

[sojourner]

103. yep.......nt

[bobbie]

104. Wouldn't it be better to just learn the meaning of "fascist"

While you're out of jail?

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7260.htm

If a good man becomes president he gets killed. Our elections are rigged. Our news is propaganda.
And you're in denial.

[Cerridwen]

106. It would also be better to learn to read beyond the subject line.

And since you were "kind" enough to provide a link for me, I have one for you:

http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm

After reading the link, I suggest you read through the thread - even you might learn something.

[bobbie]

125. My apologies

The dangers of drive by posting.
:)

[KG]

111. it's here. it happened while america was watching TV.

[CJCRANE]

117. The Counter-Revolution Was Televised

on 9/11/2001.

[Marie26]

120. Proto-fascist, maybe

But as long as we're still posting on DU about how this is a fascist country, it isn't.

[Cerridwen]

121. Do you think the people sitting in Guantanamo think it's only

proto-fascist? No charges filed, no evidence presented, no access to lawyers or the legal system, military tribunals. What about the people spirited out of the country so they can be tortured in a country in which it's legal? (see the article)

Is it only fascism when it effects me and you directly? Do there have to be "white" people rounded up in the middle of the night in large numbers for it to be fascism? Is it only fascism if we see the reports on TV? Is it only fascism when we're all wondering each and every day if we've said something to piss off a neighbor who might report us and have "the authorities" show up on our doorstep? How restricted should our lives be before we say, "oh, yeah, this is fascism." My point in the OP is that by then, it's too late. Or maybe, it'll be a kinder, gentler, less "violent" form of fascism. (There are some great quotes in this thread which describe how fascism will come to our shores)

I've read that Nazi Germany was quite comfortable for some of its citizens in the early days. Oh sure, a few people were denied jobs (see the article) and were relegated to doing business with their "own kind" and some were denied teaching jobs or access to university (see the article), but it didn't effect a the non-Jewish population so it was "okay".

At what point does it go from being "proto-fascist" to fascism? Where do you draw the line? What major outrage must occur?

The use of the Patriot Act against non-terrorists (see the article)? Prisoner "rendering" (see the article)? Suspension of habeas corpus? "Free speech" zones? Private "military" forces on the streets of New Orleans? Election tampering? Government functionaries put in place due to their party loyalty rather than due to their experience (pick a name)? Exposing a covert operative and destroying an intelligence gathering network intended to protect our national security (Valerie Plame)? Government influence over and/or control of the media (scooter libby, armstrong williams) which then is used to "destroy" dissent (Joe Wilson)? Making government policy to fit the needs of a political party and benefit corporations rather than to run our government? A pResident "appointed" rather than elected?

Does history have to repeat itself exactly the same way with exactly the same tools each and every time or we don't see it? Nope. It's here.


edit: forgot the end of a whole sentence! Need more coffee!

[Marie26]

128. It isn't.

I've spoken out strongly about Gitmo & the systematic stripping of rights for non-citizens, so don't even bother with that line. It's not a fascist country because there is still freedom of speech, assembly, and MOST importantly, there is still a democratic process. The Republicans gave up Congress w/o a military coup, w/o dissolving the legislative branch. There was an orderly, democratic transfer of power. Personally, I think that the people who compare what's happening now to Nazi Germany are almost minimizing what the Nazis did. The Nazis worked very very quickly to create a dictatorship, as soon as they were elected in 1933. They began interning dissidents & Jews that same year. They banned all opposition parties that same year. They disbanded Parliament one year later. There's really not much comparison. As long as there's still democratic elections, as long as there's freedom of speech, they have not created a fascist country. That's why I say, that as long as people can post on DU that this is a fascist country, it isn't.

[Beausoleil]

122. Henry Wallace's take on fascism in 1944

The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power.

...

American fascism will not be really dangerous until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information, and those who stand for the K.K.K. type of demagoguery.

(Mr. Wallace's statement describes today's republic party; corporations, MSM, fundienuts.)

...

The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism. They use every opportunity to impugn democracy. They use isolationism as a slogan to conceal their own selfish imperialism. ... They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection.

(This is the whole point of fascism, swastikas and jail cells have nothing to do with it.)


http://newdeal.feri.org/wallace/haw23.htm

edit to add link

[Cerridwen]

124. Thank you so much, for adding more valuable information

"We, the People" have been warned for years this would come. Yet, for some reason, if anyone points out that it's happened, it's here, the "crackpot" or "conspiracy theorist" labeled is applied to shut them up and to scare others away from listening; guilt by association, and all that. (Why aren't we ever "innocent by association"?)

Do you have a link for where you took that? I'd like to read more of it.

Thank you, again.

:hi:

[Beausoleil]

126. You are welcome

Link added.

I cringe when I hear that it's not fascism yet simply because Bush isn't Hitler. American fascism is just "kinder, gentler", as Poppy told us. Those who Wallace warned us about are the ones in charge now.