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They want the flag in every classroom I want a copy of The Constitution in every classroom

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noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 12:06 AM
Original message
They want the flag in every classroom I want a copy of The Constitution in every classroom
I really think we can make a point with this. When you think about it the flat earthers demand we all pay homage to the labors of some guy in Taiwan whilst I believe this country's primary principles and way of life is rooted in this document-THIS is what you fought for Sir Veteran* not for some piece of cloth that looks cool flying from the window of some beat up truck.


*I'm aware that not every war especially the current one in Iraq was actually fought to defend this document, however I do not wish to run the risk of offending those vets from those wars by making a statement that would seem to downplay their service to the nation.
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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. One of my favorite Molly Ivins quotes goes something like this:
"I'd rather have a politican who burns the flag and wraps himself in the Constitution than one who burns the Constitution and wraps himself in the flag."
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Good point. I almost thought the GOP would add a flag room to
the new part of the Capital. I will say this to you. I do recall the flag in the class room when I grew up and we stood every morning but did not say 'under God' and I do not recall the constitution around but govt and how it ran was sure talked about. We also had something read from the Bible every day. It was a small school, 4 rooms for up to seventh grade, and in the state of Maine. Paid for by the local tax payers and some federal money, odd for those days, as it was near a navy base. In fact one has to know a little about the Bible if you are to understand Western writing and history so I am sure that was a good point it being read every day. Most of us turned up in Sundays school each week and that school room, at a church, also had a flag. Almost every boy I knew went into the service after high school or college. They had to. Maybe it was why every one was so interested in just what their govt. was up to. I was glad to see draft gone but I now see why our 'founders' did not want a standing army and the House to control an army through their vote on money. In England the nobles had to produce a part of the army for the use of the King. One can see now where they were coming from when the wrote the Constitution
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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. That's brilliant.
I'll have to remember that one. :)
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. *Every US soldier makes a pledge to support and defend the Constitution. . .
and their faith and allegiance is pledged to that document -- that's the oath of enlistment each soldier makes on induction. No one goes to war with an oath registered in defense of a flag, and they certainly don't go in support of any specific individual or even for the nation -- it is for defense of the Constitution that each soldier serves and for no other reason.

Oath of Enlistment…

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I have had fights over that one. Many people do not know.
West Point even has a special place that this is put up to make it very clear. I was even e-mailed by a lady to tell me I was wrong. There have been a few different oaths done but all to the Constitution and not to the Pres. who ever he is. I sent her a site to read it her self but I am not sure she even then thought I was right. But then the President also takes an oath to the Constitution and we now seem to have a guy that makes that up as he goes along.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Just tell lady to google up a copy of the DD Form 4.
Or Article VI of the USC. All US public officials are "bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution..."
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. but she said she knew what it said her husband was an officer.
and I guess she would not read the first part or some thing. Some I talked to said they had never read it and thought it was to the President only before they read it which did give me hope. Some of the men had even been in the service. I think it was on a blog and I got interesting in it so off I went. Ollie North almost drove me nuts as he did not learn what he did at any service school as they do not teach that stuff. Oaths to a man is a German thing or Russian or some place but not under our constitutions. When you hear the call ins on c-span you know that in the South they most have never taught this in school. Or I hear it and the call ins sounds like they are from the South. They swear we must do any thing Bush wants. Really wild if you grew up in a small town in Maine and we all were taught the govt. was not to be trusted if we did not watch it all the time.
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Uh huh. My husband was a munition maint tech; I don't claim
to know the inner workings of a Mk82. But then, Kool Aid isn't my favorite drink.

I love the NH Constitution that tells Graniteheads that rebellion against a tyrannical government is not a right or responsibility; it's an obligation.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. I believe John Adams set up the Mass one pre feds and it
is about the same. Well they were pretty sure King George was the devil and all persons that were that type rulers. The early papers when you came into the country said some thing about giving up the King and all other such rulers. I am trying to think of the word but it has left me. I will think of it and add it later.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The word is POTENTATE
I am sure I have see it on these early papers of people coming into the USA.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
3. a flag in every classroom would offend some people...
There are people who might not like that therefore not focusing on school and not getting the education they deserve. Especially, if that student had to sit right next to the flag.

I'm not trying to stir things up just letting you know.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. When I went to school, we had a copy of the Constitution,
The Bo0R's and the Declaration of Independence on the wall. I like many others found it difficult to read the script, but it prompted us to look for it in a plainer text. This was an excellent way to get us to read the documents, and by the age of 10, I was pretty well versed in them.

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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
5. Amen to that
Instead of fetishizing a piece of cloth, or paying obeisance to a charlatan, we should honor the amazing document that provides America's foundation: the Constitution. I love America's diversity and its breathtaking scenery, but above all, it was the Constitution that made me proud to be an American.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kick and recommend #4!
You are so right!
The Constitution!
More than just a goddamned piece of paper Mr. Bush! It is our constitution! Our foundation! And you are sworn to uphold and defend it!
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Instead of the pledge every morning, read the Preamble of the USC.
This vet isn't offended. We took our oath to preserve, protect and defend the USC, not the flag.
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Matsubara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
12. K&R. Great Idea.
If they are going to insist on Flags, Bibles and Golden Rules, we should DEFINITELY insist on the Constitution.
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. One nice thing about copies of the Constitution
They don't have those little "Made in China" tags like the flag does.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. I wish the "pledge" was to the Constitution rather than the flag...
Why should the Military, Congress & the White House get to pledge to the actual founding document and the rest of us to just the cloth standard?

(see my sig)
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sarge43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Neither should be pledged. They should be taught
with understanding as the goal.
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personman Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Burn em both...
See post #22. :P
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
18. A flag is a military symbol
We swear allegiance to the Constitution, not the flag.
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personman Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. I swear allegiance to neither.
Nor should any of us. (see post #22)
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
19. I use to work at a MEPS and swore in hundreds of enlisted men
going to boot-camp. I know the oath by memory and it is not an oath to a flag. They raise their right hand and solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. It is an oath to a document. A copy of the Constitution in each class makes much more sense than a flag.

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Danascot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
20. You'd get no argument from the RW
if you proposed putting the constitution in toilet stalls instead of the classroom.
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jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
21. US Constitution lapel pins, anyone???
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personman Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
22. Neither, thanks...
Edited on Mon May-14-07 09:40 AM by personman
The constitution and our political system are designed to prevent democracy, which although far from perfect, is better then what we have now.

"Furthermore, the leading Framer of the constitutional system was an astute and lucid political thinker, James Madison, whose views largely prevailed. In the debates on the Constitution, Madison pointed out that in England, if elections "were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place," giving land to the landless. The system that he and his associates were designing must prevent such injustice, he urged, and "secure the permanent interests of the country," which are property rights. It is the responsibility of government, Madison declared, "to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority." To achieve this goal, political power must rest in the hands of "the wealth of the nation," men who would "sympathize sufficiently" with property rights and "be safe depositories of power over them," while the rest are marginalized and fragmented, offered only limited public participation in the political arena. Among Madisonian scholars, there is a consensus that "The Constitution was intrinsically an aristocratic document designed to check the democratic tendencies of the period," delivering power to a "better sort" of people and excluding "those who were not rich, well born, or prominent from exercising political power." These conclusions are often qualified by the observation that Madison, and the constitutional system generally, sought to balance the rights of persons against the rights of property. But the formulation is misleading. Property has no rights. In both principle and practice, the phrase "rights of property" means the right to property, typically material property, a personal right which must be privileged above all others, and is crucially different from others in that one person's possession of such rights deprives another of them. When the facts are stated clearly, we can appreciate the force of the doctrine that "the people who own the country ought to govern it," "one of favorite maxims" of Madison's influential colleague John Jay, his biographer observes.
One may argue, as some historians do, that these principles lost their force as the national territory was conquered and settled, the native population driven out or exterminated. Whatever one's assessment of those years, by the late 19th century the founding doctrines took on a new and much more oppressive form. When Madison spoke of "rights of persons," he meant humans. But the growth of the industrial economy, and the rise of corporate forms of economic enterprise, led to a completely new meaning of the term. In a current official document, "`Person' is broadly defined to include any individual, branch, partnership, associated group, association, estate, trust, corporation or other organization (whether or not organized under the laws of any State), or any government entity," a concept that doubtless would have shocked Madison and others with intellectual roots in the Enlightenment and classical liberalism -- pre-capitalist, and anti-capitalist in spirit.
These radical changes in the conception of human rights and democracy were not introduced primarily by legislation, but by judicial decisions and intellectual commentary. Corporations, which previously had been considered artificial entities with no rights, were accorded all the rights of persons, and far more, since they are "immortal persons," and "persons" of extraordinary wealth and power. Furthermore, they were no longer bound to the specific purposes designated by State charter, but could act as they chose, with few constraints. The intellectual backgrounds for granting such extraordinary rights to "collectivist legal entities" lie in neo-Hegelian doctrines that also underlie Bolshevism and fascism: the idea that organic entities have rights over and above those of persons. Conservative legal scholars bitterly opposed these innovations, recognizing that they undermine the traditional idea that rights inhere in individuals, and undermine market principles as as well. But the new forms of authoritarian rule were institutionalized, and along with them, the legitimation of wage labor, which was considered hardly better than slavery in mainstream American thought through much of the 19th century, not only by the rising labor movement but also by such figures as Abraham Lincoln, the Republican Party, and the establishment media."

-Noam Chomsky
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/MarketDemo_Chom.html">More...

The right-wing are really winning the framing war when we hold up such a document on a pedestal.
That said, the government could AT LEAST respect the bad deal we DO have.

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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Better Deal Than You Think
I think the Constitution may be a better deal than you think. I realize Madison some bad ideas, but I think the Constitution can and has been used in a good way. There are some people who still want to keep power in the hands of the wealthy, but there are other who can fight against the ones who are fighting for the wealthy. I contend the Constitution can be used to help both the wealthy and the poor.
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personman Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. It can only be used in a good way because...
the government doesn't even honor that minimum crappy deal. We should expect more, not just what the constitution "gives" us.

"Gives" is sort of a joke on several levels, but it seems lately the constitution is being used to TAKE. The fascists decide any rights not written in crayon (and some that are) don't exist.

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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-14-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
27. When I hear someone say, "9/11 changed everything"
I say, "No, 9/17/1787 changed everything." They never get it. ;)
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