Are politicians hypocrites if they vote for or support a war if their kids aren't in the military?

[Freddie Stubbs]

Please keep in mind that Mitt Romney, John Edwards, Rudy Guiliani, Hillary Clinton, and Dennis Kucinich all have adult children, none of which to my knowledge are serving in the military. All of them have voted for, or supported war.

[shenmue]

1. Sorry...

"Is" should be "if" in your thread title. It's a bit of a run-on too.

[Freddie Stubbs]

3. Thanks

[ORDagnabbit]

2. randomly assign a congresscritters family member once a week to a front line unit.

how fast would the war end?

[me b zola]

30. I agree

I believe that Congresspeople would have an entirely different concept of how necessary a war is if they have skin in the game. As it stands now, the only vested interest that most congress critters have in our wars is their stock holdings in companies with defense contracts.

[RedStateShame]

4. As much as I object to the architectures of this debacle, nobody deserves to go through what our...

...troops are going through right now. In TV analogy, it's like if Frank Burns ran the Army.

[leftwing9]

5. When did Kucinich vote for war?

Afghanistan, I'm thinking?

It just seems very unlike him.

[Swamp Rat]

6. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Catherine Vincent]

25. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. September 14, 2001

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll342.xml

[leftwing9]

63. Thanks...

...while the war against Afghanistan was certainly fought badly, I think I would have voted for it.

[mudesi]

8. Yes

Anyone who votes to put people to death ought to put their money where their mouths are.

I can't believe the number of people who voted no.

[NotGivingUp]

13. i can't either! nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

52. So, you beleive that Romney, Clinton, Guiliani, Edwards and Clinton are hypocrites?

:shrug:

[Madspirit]

9. Ummm...NO!

It's not up to them. It's up to their kids.

...and I don't WANT anyone's children to die.
Lee

[mudesi]

11. It's up to them to start the war, though

The politicians are the ones starting the wars. They're hypocrites if they know they're sending other people's kids to die, but not their own.

[Madspirit]

15. You missed my point

They can't send their own kids. It's up to the kids. You can't make someone else join up. Their kids have free will....

...and actually we have no draft. Everyone who is there, joined.
Lee

[mudesi]

22. The point of the OP, though

I think the point of the OP is that these politicians would not support a war if their kids were already in the military, or if they think that their kids would ever join afterwords. I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that these politicians know full well that they'll never have to sacrifice anything when they sentence other people's children to death.

[Madspirit]

27. I agree

I just don't want to sacrifice any kids. I've always thought it's kind of shameful the way we pretend to adore our children, as a species and yet they are the ones we sacrifice. So I've always thought it would be really fair if the only people even ALLOWED to fight in wars had to be over 45. Then we could just send the folks who start the wars to fight them. I don't consider kids disposable.
Lee

[Freddie Stubbs]

34. There are members of Congress with kids in the military who both support and oppose

the war in Iraq. Senators McCain and Webb each have sons in the Marines. McCain supports the war and Webb opposes it.

The point of my post is that it is silly argue that a politician needs to have a son or daughter in the military to have an opinion about whether or not going to war. Especially if we are only willing to consider this for unpopular wars (Iraq) and disregard it for wars like Afghanistan.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. The point of the OP is to call DUers on their own hypocrisy

re: Mitt Romney (who the OP probably supports) by pointing out that the very people who have supported the war in the past are in the "same situation," but are never called on it by DUers, who the OP thinks are hypocrites.

That is the point of the OP.

[Freddie Stubbs]

54. What leads you to believe that I 'proabably support' Mitt Romeny?

:shrug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

58. Gut feeling

Posting history, general impression, past experience?

:shrug:

No issues with the rest of the post, I see...

[Freddie Stubbs]

64. I am trying to improve the critical thinking and debating skills of the folks here

If DUers start using this arguement on other websites or when engaged in debate they will look foolish when their hypocracy is pointed out. Who benefits from that?

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. Riiiiight

That's what you're doing...

Concern, concern, concern...

:rofl:

[Freddie Stubbs]

68. You seem to be pretty concerned yourself

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. No, I'm amused

You're amusing.

[spoony]

61. Well there's one thing we agree on.

:)

[Kali]

10. Maybe

It gives pause for thought, but it would not be the defining act to prove hypocrisy to me.

[Bluebear]

12. Why are you so concerned about Mitt Romney's reputation?

Just curious.

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. I'm not concerned at all

I am, however, concerned about Democrats using an arguement which can be easily turned around and used against Demcoratic candidates.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Pretty much.

Unless they're estranged from their kids or something.

[Madspirit]

18. How does that work?

Since their kids have free will do they drag them down to the enlisters?

We have no draft. ALL the kids who are there joined.
Lee

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. The kids are certainly free to do as they please.

Which is why I made the estranged caveat.

That said, any politician who started the war sure as hell better be pushing their kid to enlist.

[Beaverhausen]

16. Those dems don't support the war

they voted to go to war as a last resort if WMD were found...Bush went in without real permission.

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. They all supported the war in Afghanistan, and as far as I am aware, none of them

have done anything to try to end that war.

[MadBadger]

17. What about the kids that don't agree with their parents?

And I'd say no anyway.

[RB TexLa]

19. I guess those of us who don't raise children shouldn't even bother running, huh?

Let alone voting on such.

[mudesi]

24. How about not supporting preemptive unnecessary unjustified illegal war? (nm)

[Madspirit]

20. We Have No Draft, People

All the kids who are there are there because THEY joined. Are these right-wing politicians supposed to drag their kids down to the enlistment office? I would imagine their kids have free will...JUST LIKE THE KIDS WHO JOINED AND JUST LIKE THE KIDS WHO HAVE NOT.
Lee

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Of Course Not. The Premise Itself Is Amazingly Silly.

It's one of the most narrow minded and illogical premises that can be seen popping up here repeatedly in my opinion. Sure, we have our list of topics that are rehashed time after time that are always good for this side that side debate, but they generally at least have some room for real argument and viewpoints. I just consider this one to be monumentally silly in premise.

[mudesi]

26. Why?

What is it about politicians who support unnecessary war when they know full well that their children are not enlisted and will not enlist in the future that does not make them hypocrites?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. Unless They Are Forcing Other Parents' Kids To Join The Military, Then They Aren't Hypocrites.

Since there is currently no forced draft going on, the premise is absurd on its face. It is really simple logic when it comes down to it.

I know some want to tout the concept as some great powerful logical 'gotcha' about the war, but to everyday folk they all do just consider the premise to be monumentally silly... Trust me.

[Catherine Vincent]

28. If your father is the president or vice president, yes at least one of

your eligible kids should enlist. Set an example.

[MadBadger]

33. That is ridiculous.

[Catherine Vincent]

37. I hear Romney has five eligible young men.

You would think at least one of them could have joined.

[Thothmes]

40. President

Do you mean that Chelse should have enlisted because her dad was President, Margrite should have joined the WAC's because Harry Truman was president.

[Catherine Vincent]

43. Not, not really. That was their only child.

Besides, Clinton didn't start any war.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Politicians make wars for others to fight. It's their calling in life.

"War is a quarrel between two thieves too cowardly to fight their own battle; therefore they take boys from one village and another village, stick them into uniforms, equip them with guns, and let them loose like wild beasts against each other." Thomas Carlyle

[Bronyraurus]

35. What?!

No parents can force their adult children to join the military. What the hell are the people who voted "yes" thinking?

[ulysses]

36. easy out.

No parents can force their adult children to join the military.

No, but economic necessity can. And there are some parents who can force other parents' adult children to fight stupid wars.

[Bronyraurus]

38. What?

What's that have to do with a parents' thoughts on war? It seems that they are totally independent of their adult childrens' actions.

[ulysses]

41. for starters, most young adults I know

aren't completely independent of their parent's ideology/thoughts/influence. If a politician thinks the war in Iraq is important enough to send other parents' children to fight and die in it, why isn't it important enough for him or her to insist that his or her own children take the same risks?

[Bronyraurus]

49. That's absurd

You're in favor of people "insisting" that their children join the military. What happened to adults making their own decisions? Not to mention the fact that if any parent "insisted" that his son join the military, the son would likely "insist" that his dad fuck off.

[MadBadger]

42. Who are you people who are voting yes? Bunch of crazies?

[Kingofalldems]

44. Man, you just love to defend those republicans don't you?

Freakin day after day after day. BTW, thanks for your concern.

[Freddie Stubbs]

50. It would seem that this issue applies to both Democrats and Republicans

Politicians of both parties supported the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[JI7]

45. the Democrats aren't accusing those who are critical of the war of aiding the enemy

and other crap that Republicans do.

it's not just the war itself but the way they respond to criticism of it which leads many of us to ask if they are going that far in attacking the critics why don't they or their family serve.

[Left Is Write]

46. Maybe not, but if those children support the war - why haven't any enlisted?

In the case of Mitt Romney's kids, which is what I presume sparked this thread, he's got several adult children who purportedly support the war and claim to want to "sacrifice" for their country at some point. Why haven't they enlisted? Why don't they serve?

[Selatius]

47. Yes, but with a caveat

If they vote to support a war and don't make an honest effort to encourage their children to enlist, they should not have voted to support any military campaign at all. Whether or not their children enlist is up to the children to decide individually, not the parent.

[gravity]

48. Only if they discourage their kids from joining the military

The parents can't force their kids to do what they want, so the whole premise is absurd.

[Kingofalldems]

53. I think all Concern Trolls should enlist

What do you think?

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. Who are they?

:shrug:

[treestar]

55. I have to say no, because ultimately, the offspring is an adult and

free agent, and theoretically might be smart enough to oppose this goddam war.

But it does say something about how you don't have total control over what your grown children's opinions are that you'd think fundies would notice - they and other right wingers seem to believe that you can mold another person if you have them from childhood. Doesn't it bother them to realize that they are wrong? And that their children still have their own opinions?

[devilgrrl]

57. Anyone that supports a war and won't serve is a hypocrite...

period!

[LSK]

59. Kucinich never supported it, so why include him in your example?

:shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. He voted to support the war in Afghanistan:

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2001/roll342.xml

Is he a hypocrite for voting for that war while his adult daughter is not in uniform?

[LSK]

60. so was Michael Moore wrong in F9/11 ???

When he went around Capital Hill asking Congressmen if their sons would enlist??

Is Michael Moore a bloodthirsty vampire too now?

[EdwardM]

65. No the kid is their own person.

In this country, kids are not property.

[baldguy]

66. Adult children of politicians are still adults. They need to make their own decisions.

Even Bush can't force the twins to put on a uniform.