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I never read this one before: Lawyer in Prop 8 case said, ""You don't have to have evidence of this"

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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 09:01 PM
Original message
I never read this one before: Lawyer in Prop 8 case said, ""You don't have to have evidence of this"
Prop 8 trial: Judge troubled by lack of evidence from defense

By Howard Mintz


SAN FRANCISCO — In five hours of legal arguments Wednesday, the federal judge now considering the legality of California's ban on same-sex marriage did not tip his hand on how he will ultimately rule in a case that appears destined for the U.S. Supreme Court.

But after a three-week trial in January, thick cartons of legal briefs filed by both sides and transcripts filled with every imaginable view of gay marriage, it was clear that Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker is perhaps troubled most by what he has not heard — concrete evidence from backers of Proposition 8 that the law is a constitutional way to protect traditional marriage.

That was the unmistakable theme of much of Wednesday's
arguments, which were filled with tough questions for both sides from Walker but distinguished by his open amazement at the lack of evidence from Proposition 8 defenders, who presented just one witness to counter almost two solid weeks of testimony from the plaintiffs. The closing arguments marked another crucial moment in the unprecedented trial, the first federal court test in the nation of a state's right to forbid same-sex marriage.

"Why," Walker asked Proposition 8 lead attorney Charles Cooper, "did you present but one witness on this subject?"

The question came as Cooper tried repeatedly to argue that voters backed the gay-marriage ban in 2008 to preserve the traditional definition of marriage and limit the institution to
heterosexual couples. Proposition 8 defenders have always relied on the procreation argument, that the purpose of marriage is for couples to bear children — and so it is legitimate to outlaw same-sex marriages that cannot serve that purpose. But Cooper stressed it more than ever Wednesday, saying it was "fundamental to the survival of the human race."

For defenders of the same-sex marriage ban, the argument is critical. Plaintiffs in the case maintain that Proposition 8 was fueled by discrimination and animus against gays and lesbians, and has no legitimate state purpose. Cooper was trying to rebut that argument.

But in the trial's first phase, Cooper put on one witness whom the judge is considering disregarding altogether because his credentials as an expert are in question. And that one witness did not testify on the procreation argument.

"What testimony in this case supports the proposition?" Walker asked.

"You don't have to have evidence of this," Cooper replied.

Walker asked why it is OK for the state to allow infertile couples to marry, but not gays and lesbians. "It's not quite the same," Cooper said, insisting that even heterosexual couples who can't bear children further the traditions of marriage.

Walker may still rule that the state can restrict the definition of marriage, even with the scarcity of evidence from the Proposition 8 side. But former Republican U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson, who represents two same-sex couples seeking the right to marry, pounced on Cooper's position in his later arguments.

"You have to have a reason," Olson said of denying same-sex couples marriage rights. "I don't know, and I don't have any evidence, doesn't cut it."
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. The RW only knows "no". They think that's a defense. nt
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 09:15 PM
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2. My wife and I never wanted kids and we have been married for over 17 years...
would they have voided our marriage too just because they didn't like it? Or because they didn't like US?

Amazing how much time and effort went and will still go into this pointless hate filled argument by the "religious".

mark
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Exactly. That is the fatal flaw of that argument...
...By their logic those incapable of bearing children, or unwilling to, have no right to marriage.
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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Marriage itself ain't req'd for survival of the species!
>"the purpose of marriage is for couples to bear children 'fundamental to the survival of the human race.'"

I was unaware that sperm and ova did not exist outside of marriage. Fascinating!

---------------------------------
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:02 PM
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4. The Bible says so. I need no further evidence!
:grr:
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. We could argue that gay couples
are the balance needed for population over growth and that there are many orphans that need parents as well as foster kids...
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Trekologer Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Should the marriages of childless couples be dissolved then?
Give them a year or so as a grace period...
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. Because fundamentalists think "We hold these truths to be self-evident" applies to their mythology.
These fundy lawyers can't reason, they can only fall back on the "goddidit" version of the universe.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. By their reasoning it shouldn't be possible for anyone to procreate outside marriage.
By that I mean it would be impossible for a woman to become pregnant while unmarried. Yet, there have been many women that have throughout history. Some became impregnated by priests, monks, kings, etc.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Some even by gods............or so I have heard
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david13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
11. I can't believe they got an attorney that stupid. "You don't have to
have evidence?" Not even an idiot would say that. What did he think? That jezzuz or gawd or the bible was going to strike the judge in the head with lightening, and convince him?
Or did he intentionally want to lose the case, so he could soak the wacko clients for a large fortune for an appeal?
dc
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ThomasQED Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-04-10 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. How can anyone say they are concerned about the survival of our species
with a straight face??

If we disappear from the face of the Earth, it will not be because there weren't enough of us.
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