Iraqis say they took our soldiers as revenge for the rape and killing of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.currentargus.com/ci_5897420

Militants say hunt for 3 GIs is futile

A terror group that claims to be holding the soldiers suggests the attack was revenge for the rape-killing of an Iraqi girl.

By Sudarsan Raghavan
The Washington Post

Baghdad, Iraq - As a massive hunt for three missing U.S. soldiers continued into its third day Monday, a front group for al-Qaeda in Iraq that claims to have captured them warned the U.S. military to stop searching, calling it "a venture in vain."

The group suggested the abductions were to avenge the rape and killing of a 14-year-old girl in the same area and abuses committed by U.S. troops at Abu Ghraib and other prisons.

"We say to you that what search for your soldiers you may do will not lead you to anything except fatigue, and setbacks for you. Your soldiers are firmly in our hands," the Islamic State of Iraq said in a statement posted on insurgent websites.

"Remember what you had done in this area, when you violated our sister Abeer," the statement added, referring to Abeer Qassim al-Janabi. Five soldiers were charged in the March 2006 murders of Abeer, her parents and her younger sister. Three soldiers have pleaded guilty in the case.

[MrSlayer]

1. This could go very ugly.

Very ugly indeed. It would be nice if they decided to rub Chimp's nose in it by being civil to the captured soldiers but I find that to be a highly unlikely scenario.

[Javaman]

4. exactly, yet another chapter in this horrible war that won't end well. nt

[zbdent]

2. Someone should have reminded the rapists what they do to criminals

in the Middle East ... caught lying, they cut out your tongue ... caught stealing, they cut off your hand ... caught raping, well ...

[BlooInBloo]

3. I assume it's just a PR thing. Too bad our guys give them such excuses.

[progressoid]

5. Not to diminish these soldiers' situation...

But everytime I read "rape and killing of a 14-year-old girl" I feel sick.

[Bandit]

6. Collateral damage

As the right wing is so quick to say or else just a shrug and a "War is Hell"

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

11. At that time they also said the revenge was not complete.

Who could ever has guessed they meant it? :sarcasm:

"feeding their pet Allah blood"? wtf?

[Judi Lynn]

17. Odd! It's their country, or did you forget? We should NOT be there.

They are not the agressors here. They are trying to defend their homeland from invaders.

What is "their pet Allah?"

[Kelly Rupert]

18. And explain how bombing

Shi'a marketplaces accomplishes this goal, please.

[wtmusic]

21. Deal - if you explain how the two have anything

whatsoever in common. :silly:

[Kelly Rupert]

23. Okay. Here's my half.

I was responding to the comment They are not the agressors here. They are trying to defend their homeland from invaders.

Al-Qaida in Iraq is notorious for bombing Shi'a marketplaces and mosques. This is not "trying to defend their homeland from invaders." Rather, that is bombing their homeland in hopes of encouraging a civil war.

[wtmusic]

25. There are two purposes at work

the kidnaping and killing of American soldiers is in direct retaliation for our occupation of their homeland, and has little to do with the Sunni/Shia power struggle occurring simultaneously.

[Kelly Rupert]

27. There is one purpose at work.

There is one purpose at work with al-Qaida in Iraq: the transformation of Iraq into a Sunni fundamentalist state. There are two stumbling blocks in the way:

1. The Shi'ites, who want Iraq for themselves.
2. The Americans, who insist on a secular, pro-US government.

To al-Qaida, both parties are equally illegitimate pretenders to the throne of Baghdad. Both parties must be fought however possible.

You are sort of correct, in that there are many insurgency groups that exist solely to boot the Americans out. However, al-Qaida in Iraq does not consist of these. It is a single-purpose operation. They repeatedly declare their purpose. This type of "We're doing it for Abeer" bullshit is just PR, designed to entice a few fence-sitting Sunnis into supporting them.

[wtmusic]

29. Assuming al-Qaeda has anything to do with this

and IMO it's doubtful that it does. al-Qaeda gladly latches on to publicity like this just as the DOD does -- it's a call to arms.

[Kelly Rupert]

30. From the first graf:

Baghdad, Iraq - As a massive hunt for three missing U.S. soldiers continued into its third day Monday, a front group for al-Qaeda in Iraq that claims to have captured them warned the U.S. military to stop searching, calling it "a venture in vain."

They're al-Qaida. al-Qaida is almost totally decentralized. It's now more a movement than an organization. And you're right that they're milking this for all the publicity they can, just like America does.

It's a brutal war fought mostly between heartless bastards all around, with good people caught in the crossfire. We ought to just get the fuck out.

[Dark]

34. Silly.

The media doesn't report on anything worthwile. They just cover Anna Nicole Smith and the latest celebrity pregnant out of wedlock (and/or divorce).

It's in random blogs whose authors whom we've never met or even verified the credintials of that we should place our trust.

If it's on the internet, it must be true!

[Clark2008]

38. Now you know as well as I do that the media reports EVERY

act of this nature as coming from some sort of sub-set group, front group, affliated group for or with al-Qaeda, whether it is or not.

The media tries always to blame them, whether they're involved or not, because most in the media don't know Shi'ite from shinola about Islam, the culture there, terrorism, revenge or the mindset behind the Civil War there.

That said, I do agree we should get the fuck out - but we can't on a whim. We have to pull out in the best possible way so as not to further harm our troops or their civilians. The Geneva Conventions would require it. However, Congress hasn't really gotten on the stick about it much, have they?

[Kelly Rupert]

46. So wait, are you claiming that

the Islamic State of Iraq is not al-Qaida-affiliated? What evidence would you base this on? I mean, it isn't just the US media that says so.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/73E79071-D844-40E2-94CE-3706FD62DEA7.htm

[leftchick]

54. man you bought that one

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

67. "a front group for al-Qaeda" can claim anything, and media is happy to report it

As I just posted above, I can see at least 3 possibilities for who got these guys.

Revenge for Abeer and her family, extended relatives, friends of family, local
al Qaeda using this as an excuse to capture USA troops
People seeking revenge (as in example #1) and al Qaeda claiming responsibility

Then there is the why.
Revenge
Stir up more shit


It gets really complicated and lots of possibilities. we need to get the fuck out indeed.

[Oilwellian]

71. According to Juan Cole, they aren't al Qaeda

The Islamic State of Iraq, a Salafi Jihadi organization mainly made up of Iraqi Sunni religious nationalists, said they had captured the 3 missing US soldiers and that the current US sweep in the Mahmudiya area would endanger their lives.


The deployment of 4,000 US troops to search for 3 captured GIs, however honorable and necessary, underscores the increasing futility of the US military presence in Iraq. If they were truly doing essential counter-insurgency, then there shouldn't be a spare 4,000 troops for a search mission. The guerrillas are not resting on their mortar shells, after all. And, that the main mission of the 4,000 should be to find their captured colleagues is tragic. The guerrillas can tie down an entire brigade or two any time they like by grabbing some exposed GIs? What kind of a military mission does that imply?

http://www.juancole.com/

[leftchick]

53. al-q in Iraq is another military marketing tool

like calling all Iraqis trying to oust the occupiers "terrorists". They always need a bad guy for their wars.

[uppityperson]

66. al Qaeda is in Iraq BECAUSE of the invaders.

And I think those doing revenge stuff for Abeer and her family are just that. I don't know enough to post a stridently worded opinion if al Qaeda has jumped on their bandwagon here or not. This incident could be either (locals and extended family seeing revenge or another group hogging in and using this as an excuse)

[Clark2008]

37. Gee, Rush - or is it Hannity? Maybe Pat Robertson?

Nice of you to visit.

It's the only thing they really believe is a pillar of Islam - that and feeding their pet Allah blood.

:wtf:

Do you even know the first thing about Islam? About war? About anything?

[countryjake]

39. Remember

Berkeley Vigil For Abeer Qassim Hamza - Aug 19th, 2006
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/08/19/18298816.php

"Abeer Qassim Hamza was a 14 year old Iraqi girl who lived in the village of Al-Mahmoudiyah, southeast of Baghdad. On March 12th Abeer was raped and then burnt and killed in her home. Her mother, father, and younger sister were also shot to death, leaving her two younger brothers parentless. In early July, four US soldiers, and one ex-soldier, were charged with these crimes. Previous to the charges, the ex-soldier, Steven Green, was discharged from the Army for a personality disorder. With the exception of Steven Green, all those involved with the crime will be tried in a military court. The proceedings will be kept confidential, rising doubt as to whether or not a thorough independent investigation will take place. We want to make sure that Abeer, her family, and the tens of thousands of victims of violence in Iraq are not forgotten. On August 19th, Abeer Hamza would have been 15 years old. In rememberance, candle light vigils were held in Los Angeles, Berkeley, and New York."

[uppityperson]

68. Oh that is good. thank you.

Appalling, but very good.

[Iris]

75. I can't breathe.

This is so horrifying.


"Everyday these soldiers harassed Abeer Hamza as she walked through a checkpoint manned by them."

A nightmare.

[Balbus]

8. Will they let us trade them?

Give us back those soldiers we'll give them the right ones? The murderous, degenerate, despicable soldiers that actually did the crime they're avenging?

[file83]

9. You know, I'm not sure if I'm going to buy the "rape" claim.

Maybe I'm wrong, Lord knows I have been wrong in the past but....

Those hard-core Islamic misogynist freaks wouldn't blame the soldiers if they raped the girl.

They would blame the girl. That's how sick these fundamentalists are.

So, if these guys were "honest", they wouldn't be seeking revenge for the rape of a girl.

I think they are just putting that out there so the US media picks up on it.

That isn't to say soldiers aren't capable of raping and killing a local girl, I just don't think that with all the death that has been going on over in Iraq that the insurgents would make a special point of a rape and killing of a girl.

In their culture, if a girl gets raped, she is killed to "protect" the family's "honor". At least, that's what I've read stories about.

[wtmusic]

12. I get your point -- a rape/murder isn't really that big of a deal

in the context of it all. And the "insurgents" are dishonest, sick misogynistic freaks for making it a big deal. Unlike the soldiers who raped a young girl then honorably killed her.

You are out of your mind.

[file83]

81. Congratulations!

I don't think anyone could have misunderstood my post more if they tried!

:woohoo:

[uppityperson]

13. That is a really nasty disgusting bigotted post.

[Kelly Rupert]

15. With a kernel of truth.

Such misogynistic fundamentalism indeed exists in the Middle East. However, it is not ubiquitous, and he recklessly overgeneralizes. Still, the poster is right to question the dedication to upholding the honor of an innocent civilian displayed by people affiliated with al-Qaida in Iraq, a group notorious for wanton slaughter of innocent civilians for political purposes.

[wtmusic]

19. All told, your "group" is far more notorious for wanton slaughter

of innocent civilians for political purposes, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[Kelly Rupert]

20. My group?

What group would that be?
:shrug:

[wtmusic]

22. Are you an American? nt

[Kelly Rupert]

24. Yes.

This means that I cannot question the purity of the motives of al-Qaida in Iraq?

[wtmusic]

26. You can question anything you want

I would first question the purity of American soldiers, three of whom have already confessed, in brutally raping and killing a young girl and her family. In light of circumstances and possible motives I don't see much to question on the part of Iraqis.

[Kelly Rupert]

28. These three have confessed?

Link?

Regardless, if you see no reason to question the motives of al-Qaida in Iraq I can't very well help you. If you want to believe that asymmetrical warfare is fought between Good Guys and Bad Guys, well, keep your coloring books.

Our military engages in brutal acts and lies about it to curry favor with the populace. al-Qaida in Iraq engages in brutal acts and lies about it to curry favor with the populace. The Shi'a militas engage in brutal acts and lie about it to curry favor with the populace. The Kurdish peshmerga engage in brutal acts and lie about it to curry favor with the populace. The Sunni insurgency engages in brutal acts and lies about it to curry favor with the populace.

If you want to arbitrarily pick one side and believe its PR, go ahead.

[wtmusic]

31. Who's picking one side?

If it was my relative who was raped and murdered I'd be out there gunning for Americans too. That, it seems to me, would be a powerful motive.

You're the one who's naively believing that when al-Qaeda says they're responsible for something, they actually are. :eyes:

[Zywiec]

44. So if it were your relative you'd be gunning for the guilty?

Would you be cheering as they were beheaded?

[wtmusic]

56. I don't cheer any suffering

but I do believe in justice, and the American military apparatus is providing little.

[Zywiec]

57. So you think the gunning down and beheading is justice,

but you wouldn't be cheering. Ok, now I think I understand your position.

I'm guessing you don't believe in the court system?

[wtmusic]

58. What court system are you referring to? nt

[Zywiec]

60. The US court system, of course.

Soldier gets 90 years in Iraqi rape case
Spc. James Barker pleads guilty to rape of girl, killing of her and her family
Nov 17, 2006
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15733192 /

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. - A soldier who was sentenced to 90 years in prison for conspiring to rape a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and kill her and her family said he knew his actions would harm support for the U.S. military’s mission in Iraq.

---------


What court do you think will hand out the "justice" to the Soldiers being held in Iraq? Of course you approve of gunning these people down, just so long as there is no cheering during the suffering.

[wtmusic]

61. Eligible for parole in 20 years? That's not justice

Put it this way: if that were my daughter and I knew who did it, that man is fucking DEAD.

And I say that without one ounce of celebration in my heart.

[Zywiec]

62. Well apparently you support the death penalty

as handed out by vigilantes (yourself included). How very progressive of you. Of course, even if the kidnapped Americans had nothing to do with the rape of that 14 year old girl, it will make them feel much better torturing and beheading our Soldiers.

I guess after reading all the Falwell posts, I'm surprised by the amount of hate some people on this board must live with everyday.

[wtmusic]

63. Well we don't behead, but we torture and murder theirs

while occupying their country. Then again, they don't use white phosphorus, so I'll call it a draw. Would you raise a rifle to defend the US from a foreign invasion? Just curious.

onedit: Apparently the Iraqis have some work to do before they're as "progressive" as you are.

[Zywiec]

65. We have hundreds of thousands of troops rotating in and out

of Iraq. I try not to use such a broad brush to say "WE", as in all troops. The ones I know are very honorable. I'm sure even if you looked around DU you would find family members who are serving, yet not torturing and murdering innocent Iraqis.

Of course I would raise a rifle to defend the US from a foreign invasion. I took an oath to do that. I also understand the law of war, and the conventions that cover it. Most Soldiers know these, but as always, some break the law. People breaking laws is no different in the military than in the civilian world. There are rules to follow: some will and others won't.

If there were a foreign invasion, would you blow up stores, cafeterias, schools, places of worship, and other Americans to defend it from the foreign invasion?

[wtmusic]

72. Man of straw

You're assuming al Qaeda is actually behind this--far more likely these are people who are defending their homeland and have little choice but to use a "broad brush". They see Americans raping and murdering their own, then they see American authorities slap offenders' wrists after pleading guilty to the crime (for the same crime in the US they would have either gotten death or multiple life sentences without parole). They see "honorable" soldiers who are nonetheless dishonorably and illegally occupying their country, telling them what they can and can't do. My impression would be that Americans don't give a crap about justice outside their own borders, and it wouldn't be far off the mark.

But since you believe in the American court system, here's one for you: say one of these soldiers was sentenced to death, and you were called upon to pull the switch. Would you uphold American law--or take the law into your own hands, aka become a vigilante?

[uppityperson]

70. Cortez got 100 yrs, parole in 10 (vs Barker's 90/20)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17247852
A U.S. soldier was sentenced to 100 years in prison Thursday for the gang rape and murder of an Iraqi girl and the killing of her family last year.

Sgt. Paul E. Cortez, 24, also was given a dishonorable discharge. He will be eligible for parole in 10 years under the terms of his plea agreement.

Cortez, of Barstow, Calif., pleaded guilty this week to four counts of felony murder, rape and conspiracy to rape in a case considered among the worst atrocities by U.S. military personnel in Iraq. In his plea agreement, he said he conspired with three other soldiers from the Fort Campbell-based 101st Airborne Division to rape 14-year-old Abeer Qassim al-Janabi.

[Kelly Rupert]

45. That's just bull.

Seriously. I'm believing aQ? I've claimed that they are probably lying about kidnapping soldiers to avenge a civilian casualty. You tell me that you see no motive for al-Qaida to lie. And now you tell me that I'm naively believing al-Qaida? Ridiculous.

What have I attributed to al-Qaida that you would deny?

[countryjake]

36. Mahmoudiya is where the fourteen yr old girl was raped, murdered, & burned

and her mother, father, and little sister shot and killed. All of it planned and carried out by American soldiers.

What's to wonder about why any of our soldiers operating in that same area, now, might be at great risk, just driving thru the place?


GIs probed in 'premeditated' Iraq rape, killings
Investigators say soldiers plotted attack that left 4 dead for nearly a week
July 1, 2006
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13630952

~snip~

Investigators believe a group of U.S. soldiers suspected of raping an Iraqi woman, then killing her and three members of her family plotted the attack for nearly a week, a U.S. military official said Saturday.

Up to five soldiers are being investigated in the March killings, the fifth pending case involving alleged slayings of Iraqi civilians by U.S. troops.

The Americans entered the Sunni Arab’s family home, separated three males from the woman, raped her and burned her body using a flammable liquid in a cover-up attempt, a military official close to the investigation said. The three males were also slain.

The soldiers had studied their victims for about a week and the attack was “totally premeditated,” the official said on condition of anonymity because the investigation was ongoing. The family had just moved into the home in the insurgent-riddled area around Mahmoudiya, 20 miles south of Baghdad.


Soldier gets 90 years in Iraqi rape case
Spc. James Barker pleads guilty to rape of girl, killing of her and her family
Nov 17, 2006
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15733192/

~snip~

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. - A soldier who was sentenced to 90 years in prison for conspiring to rape a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and kill her and her family said he knew his actions would harm support for the U.S. military’s mission in Iraq.

“I do not ask anyone to forgive me today,” he tearfully told the judge. “I don’t know how that would be possible after what I have done. I do ask the Iraqi people not to blame my brothers still fighting in Iraq.”

Barker pleaded guilty Wednesday and agreed to testify against the others to avoid the death penalty.

The killings in Mahmoudiya, a village about 20 miles south of Baghdad, were among the worst in a series of alleged attacks on civilians and other abuses by military personnel in Iraq.


GI gets 100 years for raping Iraqi girl, murders
Army sergeant admitted partaking in gang rape of Iraqi girl, family’s killing
Feb 23, 2007
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17247852/

~snips~

Sgt. Paul E. Cortez, 24, also was given a dishonorable discharge. He will be eligible for parole in 10 years under the terms of his plea agreement...

In the plea agreement, read in court Tuesday, Cortez said he conspired with three other soldiers — Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman, Spc. James P. Barker and Steven D. Green, who has been discharged — to rape 14-year-old Abeer Qassim al-Janabi.

According to the plea deal, Cortez, Spielman and Barker illegally went into the home of the girl’s family in Mahmoudiya, and Cortez held her while Barker raped her. While Cortez raped her, Green shot and killed the girl’s parents and younger sister, the agreement said.

Cortez then acted as a lookout while Green raped the girl and then shot her, the document said. Cortez helped burn the girl’s body and the home, then burned his clothes. Spielman threw the AK-47 used to kill the family in a canal, the deal said. Cortez also admitted drinking whiskey before going to the home, which broke the Army’s rules against drinking alcohol.

The March 2006 killing of the family was originally reported to be the work of insurgents.


The ambushed & missing soldiers were in the same town that Abeer & her family were murdered by GIs - Sat May-12-07
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=873681&mesg_id=873681

[dogday]

47. *crickets*

come on let's hear the defense of what these soldiers did... I can't believe I am hearing someone defend the actions of these guys who planned this attack.....

[Kelly Rupert]

49. Good, because you're not.

I haven't seen one person here defend rape or murder. The reason nobody's replied is that nobody's denying it. The closest anyone's came was denying that the soldiers kidnapped were the soldiers responsible for the rape/murder, which is correct.

[dogday]

51. Are you sure about that? nt

[uppityperson]

69. Here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abeer_Qassim_Hamza

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13686528/

The affidavit is based on FBI and military investigators’ interviews with three unidentified soldiers assigned to Green’s platoon. Two of the soldiers said they witnessed another soldier and Green rape the woman.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/iraq.familyslain/index.html

One of the U.S. soldiers accused of raping and killing an Iraqi and slaying her family told investigators that after the killings he poured kerosene on the girl's bullet-ridden body, according to testimony Monday in a military hearing.

In an interview with the U.S. Army's Criminal Investigative Division in June, Spec. James P. Barker, 23, said that he held the girl down while she was raped by another soldier, Sgt. Paul Cortez, during an incident in March in Mahmoudiya, according to testimony from CID Special Agent Benjamin Bierce

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/22/iraq/main2506877.shtml

A U.S. soldier was sentenced to 100 years in prison for the gang rape and murder of an Iraqi girl and the killing of her family last year.

Sgt. Paul E. Cortez, 24, also was given a dishonorable discharge on Thursday. He will be eligible for parole in 10 years under the terms of his plea agreement.

Cortez, of Barstow, California, pleaded guilty this week to four counts of felony murder, rape and conspiracy to rape in a case considered among the worst atrocities by U.S. military personnel in Iraq. (more

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17247852/

A U.S. soldier was sentenced to 100 years in prison Thursday for the gang rape and murder of an Iraqi girl and the killing of her family last year.

Sgt. Paul E. Cortez, 24, also was given a dishonorable discharge. He will be eligible for parole in 10 years under the terms of his plea agreement.

Cortez, of Barstow, Calif., pleaded guilty this week to four counts of felony murder, rape and conspiracy to rape in a case considered among the worst atrocities by U.S. military personnel in Iraq. In his plea agreement, he said he conspired with three other soldiers from the Fort Campbell-based 101st Airborne Division to rape 14-year-old Abeer Qassim al-Janabi. (more)

[lefty66]

74. Exactly

No sympathy for any US soldiers.

[uppityperson]

76. "No sympathy for any US soldiers"?

[Marrah_G]

86. Welcome to ignore asshole

[uppityperson]

89. don't bother, it is gone, pict here

[Marrah_G]

90. Yay !!!!!

[tabasco]

78. Really? Are the captive soldiers the ones who raped the girl?

You're fucked up in the head for suggesting they have a reasonable motive for punishing three soldiers that had nothing to do with the rape & murder.

[AnnieBW]

94. Look at it from a different perspective

Okay, you have to look at it from the perspective of a Middle Eastern tribal Moslem man. If a woman is raped, you have dishonored her. Her family won't be able get a good husband for her, because she is no longer a virgin. (Of course, it wasn't her fault, but that doesn't matter.) You have also dishonored her family. Not only was the girl raped, she was murdered. So were her mother and father. (I forget if she had brothers or not.) Normally, it would fall to the father or the brothers of the raped woman to "take care of" the attackers - in the Tony Soprano sense of the phrase. However, since her father was also murdered, it would fall to their tribe to administer justice.

Now, the Americans have caught these guys, put them on trial, and they're in a nice, cushy American prison - where the tribe members won't be able to touch them. Or maybe they don't know that they've been sentenced to long prison terms. Either way, they've been denied justice. To the average Iraqi, all they see is an American, and probably the unit identification. They don't know that the guys that are in Iraq aren't the same perpetrators. All they know is that "Americans from this unit raped a girl and killed her and her family." So, they decide to take care of justice in the "old school" way.

Yes, it sounds bigoted and barbaric. But it's the kind of mindset that we're dealing with over there. Sorry if I offended anyone.

[wtmusic]

102. I'll avoid the ad hominems

but point out:
1) That Iraqis have every right to defend their country from a foreign invasion.
2) This is likely al Qaeda taking credit for something they had nothing to do with
3) The soldiers who perpetrated this tragedy got a wrist slap from their authorities
4) Without accountability the organization itself thus bears the brunt of any retribution

[file83]

84. You seemed to have understood my point.

The part I don't get is why you claim I "recklessly overgeneralize", yet you turn around and say that the "people affiliated with al-Qaida in Iraq" are "a group notorious for wanton slaughter of innocent civilians for policital purposes."

These al-Qaida are the very misogynistic fundamentalists I speak of. Is that generalization okay for you to make, but when I make it it's "reckless"? Come on. It's okay to agree with me without cutting me down first.

[file83]

80. Explain the basis for your vitriolic opinion.

Do you actually have an argument, explanation, or are you only good for a sound bites?

[uppityperson]

85. OK, since you asked so nicely

Those hard-core Islamic misogynist freaks wouldn't blame the soldiers if they raped the girl.

They would blame the girl. That's how sick these fundamentalists are.

So, if these guys were "honest", they wouldn't be seeking revenge for the rape of a girl.

I think they are just putting that out there so the US media picks up on it.

That isn't to say soldiers aren't capable of raping and killing a local girl, I just don't think that with all the death that has been going on over in Iraq that the insurgents would make a special point of a rape and killing of a girl.

In their culture, if a girl gets raped, she is killed to "protect" the family's "honor". At least, that's what I've read stories about.
---------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know what you state, what are you basing your extreme knowledge of people in another country on? Misogynism is present most places, including the middle-east, but it is not ubiquitous, and you overgeneralize.

The locals where Abeer and her family lived already have said they would take revenge for her stalking, rape, mutilation, and the mass murder of this 14 yr old girl, her little sister, and their parents. Calling Iraqis who have been caught up in this atrocity "hard-core Islamic misognyist freaks" rates as an extrememly judgemental piece of writing. The soldiers involved (except for Steven Green) have confessed, 2 have been tried and sentenced to 90 or 100 yrs in prison. "in their culture" also broadbrushes a big country, and a culture in which no, they don't kill the girl to protect the family's honor. Yes, it happens, but this happens more in Afghanistan, Pakistan areas.

If they were honest, they wouldn't be seeking revenge for this rape, mass murder, mutiliation? What would they be doing? You seem to be saying that even though people in this area said they would seek revenge, and have done so, that they weren't honest about it? Or is it that you do not believe Iraqis capable of being so angry over a mass murder and rape and mutilation of a child that they would not seek revenge?

I call this nasty and bigoted. And I call it really nasty and bigoted.

When you ask for clarification, 19 hours later, it is also a good idea to be a bit patient, since the person you are asking for clarification may not be online and checking right at that moment. You lucked out with me.

[file83]

87. Ummm....you did read the OP, right?

Did you miss this part: "a front group for al-Qaeda in Iraq"

You seem to be confusing two distinct groups of people here.

On one hand, there are the friends/family of the girl that got raped and murdered. Those people are NOT the people I'm labeling misogynist freaks. By all means, I expect them to be outraged at the U.S. Soldiers for what they did, as we all are.

Problem with your argument is, I'm not talking about them.

I'm talking about the "front group for al-Qaeda in Iraq" which claims they took the soldiers BECAUSE of the rape and murder of that girl. They are they misogynist freaks I speak of.

The point I was making is that those freaks couldn't give two shits about women, so the reason they give for kidnapping the U.S. soldiers is bullshit. It's just a PR ploy.

In-other-words, they are using the misfortune of one family in Iraq to create the illusion that they actually care about women by "seeking revenge". The goal is to transfer the obvious sympathy WE ALL HAVE for the family of that girl over to Al-Qaida's agenda.

Seems many people are buying into their bullshit scam.

And I am very glad you were able to respond so quickly to my post. It only took you a few minutes by my count.

[uppityperson]

88. OK, got that, apology offered.. more...

I see your point. I was reacting to assuming the categorization was of Iraqis. Pissed off Iraqis. There are lots of pissed off Iraqis who are retaliating to atrocities they have been sucked up into. The cycle goes on. They I do not see at all being what you posted and that is what I objected to. I understand now that that was not who you meant and I apologize for my vitriol.

I don't believe much of what any group claims, as who the hell knows if they did, and claiming responsibility for things like this is way wrong. I am not saying that these soldiers deserved what happened, but can understand why people would want revenge. I agree, claiming sympathy for this family's desecration is very wrong. The family and community deserve our sympathy, not a group of anyone wanting to hijack it for their own uses.

So, I see your point, very much misunderstood, apologize for the misundertanding and vitriol.

Why the hell are there even groups in Iraq claiming shit like this, why claim al Qaeda when 6 yrs ago they weren't there? General rant on wtf is the administration trying to pull followed by outrage and strong desire to end the occupation now. (having a hard time posting specifics after reading that big by-mistake-never-meant-that-to-happen "strident" topic)

[file83]

96. After rereading my orignal post, I could have worded it better...

...it was a bit confusing. That's why I was glad you explained your argument because it forced me to see where the confusion was coming from (me!) and that allowed me to word my point with more clarity.

Thanks for trying to understand me but I must also apologize for being a smart ass. Anyways...

What those U.S. soldiers did to that girl ranks with the lowest form of human behavior. If it can even be called "human". Obviously some of our "boys" over there have lost their minds and souls and have become monsters. While a human is always responsbile for their own behavior, Bush and all the war mongers state side who insist on keeping them in hell also are responsible.

That's why this war must end. We must break the cycle. Until then, the downward spiral will just continue.

[countryjake]

41. Have you read this story?

Soldier breaks down during graphic account of girl's rape
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles - 22 February 2007
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2293485.ece

~snip~

A US soldier being court-martialled for raping a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and killing her family last March broke down in tears yesterday as he gave a graphic account of the unprovoked attack.

Sgt Paul Cortez, one of five men facing criminal charges for the atrocity, described how he and his comrades discussed "having sex with an Iraqi female" and then selected their target in such a way as to minimise getting caught.

He, James Barker and Steven Green had their eye on a farmhouse near their checkpoint in Mahmudiya, near Baghdad. They visited it before the attack and behaved so lasciviously around Abeer Qasim al-Janabi that she was sent to sleep at a neighbour's house. They made their move in broad daylight, when Abeer's parents and five-year-old sister were also home. Cortez told the court that Green took the three into a bedroom while Cortez and Barker took turns raping Abeer in the living room.

"She kept trying to keep her legs closed and saying stuff in Arabic," Cortez said. "During the time me and Barker were raping Abeer, I heard gunshots that came from the bedroom. After Barker was done, Green came out and said that he had killed them all... Green then placed himself between Abeer's legs to rape her."

[file83]

79. I know the girl was raped, I just don't believe that the insurgent's motivation to kidnapping

our soldiers has anything to do with the rape and murder of that girl.

These insurgents are trying to kidnap/kill U.S. soldiers all day, everyday. Now that they have some soldiers, they are trying to win the world's sympathy by saying it's because of the rape/murder of one girl.

My point is that there have been literally tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of innocent women and children killed in this war. Why are they trying to distinguish their motivation for this current kidnapping of U.S. soldiers?

It may not seem like an important point to others, but its a point I felt like making.

[pampango]

43. Does anyone really think that kidnapping of American soldiers

is not something that is a goal every day? Few opportunities present themselves, but it is a dream come true for insurgents, regardless of any rape or murder that has occurred. Actually, given the PR value of captured American soldiers it would be insulting the intelligence of the insurgents if they weren't trying to capture soldiers every day.

[uppityperson]

10. and the murder of her parents and little sister

I fear for these MIAs. May Mrbush and Steven Green (and his buddies) suffer the pits of hell for what they have done.

[Judi Lynn]

32. It most surely wasn't a crime of passion. It was planned well in advance.

Here's a very quick grab to refresh the minds of anyone around who doesn't take the time to read much, whom we see far too often in these threads! How they could have missed grasping the jist of this one is well beyond me:

Last Updated: Thursday, 22 February 2007, 16:22 GMT

US soldier admits murdering girl

A second US soldier's plea of guilty to the gang rape of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and the killing of her and her family has been accepted by a judge.

Sgt Paul Cortez admitted four murders, rape and conspiracy to rape. His plea means he will avoid the death penalty.
In November, Specialist James Barker, 24, admitted rape and murder over the killings and was jailed for 90 years.

Cortez broke down as he confessed to raping the girl as her parents and sister were shot dead in another room.
The case is one of several in which US troops are accused of killing Iraqis.

According to the plea agreement, Cortez admitted conspiring with three other soldiers, Private First Class Jesse Spielman, Specialist Barker and Steven Green, a now discharged soldier, to rape Abeer Qassim al-Janabi.

Card game

Pte Spielman and another man, Bryan Howard, are awaiting court martial on charges related to the attack.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6384781.stm

I agree with you. There really should be a wildly painful experience ahead for the people responsible. Here's the hideous Steven Green:

[Kelly Rupert]

14. PR bullshit.

Kidnapping is done purely for either ransom or PR. This kind of "Our brutality is justifed because of (unspeakable crime done by other guys)" is nothing but propaganda for the Iraqi masses.

We engage in psyops, and so do they. Unfortunately, Abeer and the soldiers have both been unwittingly dragged into another battle in the war for mindshare.

[dogday]

48. PR Bullshit?

what in the world are you talking about?

[Kelly Rupert]

50. You might try reading my post

Hint: in war, much of what is said, is said for your audience.

[dogday]

52. By who and for what reason

You seem to have the inside track on this war... What are your qualifications? Have you been in the service? Do you work with psych-ops?

The posts I have read by you, you play up the insurgent side, but play down the actions of the Americans... I am just curious as to where you get your information?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dogday]

99. Yikes, that must of stung......

[magellan]

16. This is why religious wars go on for centuries

The radicals on both sides spin their inhumane acts as righteous in the eyes of their god. It disgusts me to know we've done things to detainees that are just as horrendous as what these three soldiers are enduring. Part of me hopes for their sakes that they're already dead.

[wtmusic]

33. delete

[Judi Lynn]

35. No doubt you can trust George W. Bush to help look for the missing soldiers

He'll probably make sure they haven't been hidden in the Oval office, just like the WMD's:



"Nope, not under here."

[B Calm]

40. So we can't leave yet, we have to clean up the mess that we made

but, first we have to rape and kill more little girls....

[countryjake]

42. kick

[leftchick]

55. you reap what you sow

too bad. Bring them home and this shit would stop.

[shadowknows69]

59. Read the first part of this column.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1989574>

[Stalwart]

64. Capture an American and provoke a massive response

that will help turn Iraqis against us. How many homes can 4,000 troops enter every day? Obviously they would include homes and business already searched once in the surge. If nobody is home they break down the door. In any event troops enter ready to kill.

Obviously a better tactic for them to capture a couple of our troops than to kill them with an IED. If the reason is retaliation for a rape and killing then they get even more mileage out of it.

I think we will see greater use of this tactic in the future. They have seen how effective it is as demonstrated by the surge home search. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that if people are pissed by a home search in the surge all that is needed is a reason to search again. Our idea of the surge is search once and its done, their idea might be to have us search over and over.

Once a single American is captured the entire search cycle starts again. How does the average Iraqi feel after their home has been searched repeatedly? This is a people to people program instigated by those in Iraq that want to increase public opinion against the occupation and it is probably going to work well.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. The Reasons Are Irrelevant. I Just Pray That These Soldiers All Can Return Safely Out Of Their Hands

I don't care what psychotic justification they have for killing our troops and kidnapping the others, to be honest with ya. All I hope is that they can be rescued safely and make it home to their families.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. D'oh. It's a WAR! -nt

[Jed Dilligan]

82. Egad! Who would have ever considered the possibility

that they would be so uncouth as to fight back?

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jed Dilligan]

92. I'll be very clear:

It IS okay when they kill occupying foreign soldiers by any means at their disposal. I would reserve that as a basic human right.

Whatever else they do does not change that.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

98. proposing that the government of the green zone is legitimate

is a pathetic argument.

Yes of course the Iraqi people have the right to resist our illegal occupation of their country. What sort of political arrangements they form are none of our damn business. While the deaths of civilians and combatants on all sides is deplorable, we can end our participation in the slaughter tomorrow as we have no business being there to begin with. Casey Sheehan was a soldier fighting an illegal war against the nation of Iraq, engaged in the criminal occupation of that nation. Mrs. Sheehan is very much aware of the complex issues regarding the death of her son. Your use of her son as some sort of immunity guard to deflect the issue of the inherent justice of the insurgency is rather dishonest.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[INDIA]

103. *cricket* *cricket* I guess you dissapeared. n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

104. Naw, I'm here.

Sorry I missed the rule-breaking posts!

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jed Dilligan]

106. I have no idea. I've been off in my own thread and the real world.

I would prefer if the posts were still up.

So what is your problem with national sovereignty? And what would you do if some other country invaded us? I know I would be kidnapping their officers and collaborators, cutting them up and leaving the pieces where people could see 'em.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

107. Who said it's "okay?"

Nothing in a war is ever "ok," even "normal" combat between troops.

What I object to is that Iraqis fighting a military invasion force is somehow "psychotic."

[dogday]

100. You should care... We are setting the standards for torture

in this country and how can we expect others to do the right thing, when we ourselves are heartless bastards.... We all should be concerned... We cannot take the moral high-ground on this issue like we used to.. The cat is out of the bag.. The images we have seen are more than enough evidence to back this up... The actions of this administration have set new standards for capturing and torturing our soldiers....

I want them to be treated fairly and come home safe too... When my son was over there, I hoped and prayed he would never be captured.. The thoughts that used to go through my head about it... That is why it is so important for us to get back to the right standards of how to treat our prisoners...

[AnnieBW]

93. Can we give 'em the real perps?

Can we trade the real perpetrators of this crime for the soldiers that were kidnapped? I said all along that we should give them to the Iraqis, so that they could handle it as they deemed appropriate.

[Swamp Rat]

95. Bring home our troops!

NOW!!!