How Many Iraqis Did We "Liberate" From Life on Earth?

[maryf]

http://www.truth-out.org/how-many-iraqis-did-we-liberate-from-life-earth62112?print

Saturday 07 August 2010

How Many Iraqis Did We "Liberate" From Life on Earth?

by: Robert Naiman, t r u t h o u t | Op-Ed

photo
(Photo: DVIDSHUB; Edited: Jared Rodriguez / t r u t h o u t)

Is there a man or woman in America today who is willing to stand at noon in the public square and claim that demands to bomb, invade, and occupy other people's countries have anything to do with human liberation?
If such people can be found, let them answer a few simple questions about the US invasion and occupation of Iraq:

How many Iraqis did we "liberate" from the companionship of their loved ones?
How many Iraqis did we "liberate" from dwelling in the houses and towns and the country of their birth?
How many Iraqis did we "liberate" from life on Earth?

If any American who claims to believe that indefinite continuation of the war in Afghanistan -- or a US/Israeli military attack on Iran -- is justified by humanitarian concerns cannot give a fact-based and intellectually coherent answer to the question of how many Iraqis have lost their lives as a result of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, do not that person's claims for "humanitarian" war, bombing, and occupation deserve zero credence?

To state that we cannot know how many have died is outrageously false. It is vacuously true that we cannot know exactly how many have died. But in the diverse fields of human inquiry and endeavor, there are many large numbers that are important which we cannot know exactly. If understanding the magnitude of a number is important, we do not throw up our hands and say, "we can never know." Imagine a reference book that said, "we don't know how many humans are alive on Earth today, because no one has counted them all."

<snip> counts, estimates, and charts here, important to look at...

So, if you happen to run into any American who claims to support the open-ended war and occupation of Afghanistan, or a US/Israeli attack on Iran, or any other demand to bomb, invade, or occupy someone else's country based on "humanitarian" motivations, ask them to say this sentence: "Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died as a result of the US invasion and occupation of their country." If they can't say this sentence, you can safely ignore anything else they have to say.

I've heard its more than a million myself...

[TBF]

1. K&R nt

[AnArmyVeteran]

38. FIVE times as many Iraqis were killed under King George than under Saddam Hussein.

So who was the bigger tyrant? Yes, Hussein was evil, but no Al Qaeda existed in Iraq and Hussein's leadership kept the balance of power in the Middle East in check. As bad as things were under Saddam, they are worse now because the infrastructure was destroyed and chaos still remains after 8 years of US rule. And the people still live in total poverty while the oil is being stolen out from beneath their feet.

[stray cat]

2. How many died in the years before we came?

or are those someone else murdered considered as less valued politically?

[cliffordu]

3. Whoop, there it is.

loads we killed were the psychotics that made up Saddam's republican guard and his secret police, the paid murders and rapists.

I feel 'specially sorry for them.

and, in case anyone is stupid enough to take that last line seriously,

:sarcasm:

We were lied into the war by Boosh and Cheney, and they should be charged as war criminals.

[maryf]

5. others are earning the war criminal status...

bush and cheney sent no drones to Pakistan...on edit: correction, seems they did see comments below this...

[cliffordu]

6. Well.....

:rofl:


Defending Boosh and Cheney speaks for itself.


And how do you KNOW Boosh wasn't sending drones???


Really??

[maryf]

12. Give me a break...you know I'm not defending b and c...

It's not a laughing matter...or do you think innocent people dying regardless the murderers something to laugh about??

[maryf]

16. drones started in Pakistan in 2004 according to Wikipedia

so you are right, W was complicit, at least I'll admit when I err'd. Obama continues them, does that make it alright???

[jaxx]

8. "?"

[maryf]

23. for a quick one...

maybe this will answer part of your "?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8873106

[readmoreoften]

26. That is just ridiculous. Most of the Republican Guard were career soldiers just like in any other

country. Were there psychos in the RG? Sure. And you better believe there are psychos in the US military.

Are you seriously suggesting that the majority of the people we've killed in Iraq are guilty? Are you insane or just completely ignorant of the situation on the ground?

If this is your attitude :puke: --hell, why not support Bush?

[cliffordu]

36. Why not read my post and try again??

I suggested nothing of the sort.

[maryf]

4. No greater, probably less...

And his numbers took decades... No one is denying that the US former ally was a murdering despot...but did we need to be as well?? The country had 25 million when we entered, it's around 20 million now, 5 million of which are orphans...
millions are displaced and unwanted in neighboring countries...and the infrastructure is a shambles...

[HysteryDiagnosis]

9. Did you know?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0420-05.htm

"As in Iran in '53, it was mostly American money and even American involvement on the ground," says Morris, referring to a U.S.-backed coup that brought the return of the shah to neighbouring Iran.

Kassem, who had allowed communists to hold positions of responsibility in his government, was machine-gunned to death. And the country wound up in the hands of the Baath party.

At the time, Morris continues, Saddam was a Baath operative studying law in Cairo, one of the venues the CIA chose to plan the coup.

In fact, he claims the former Iraqi president castigated by President George W. Bush as one of history's most "brutal dictators" was actually on the CIA payroll in those days.

"There's no question," Morris says. "It was there in Cairo that (Saddam) and others were first contacted by the agency."

In 1968, Morris says, the CIA encouraged a palace revolt among Baath party elements led by long-time Saddam mentor Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr, who would turn over the reins of power to his ambitious protege in 1979.

"It's a regime that was unquestionably midwived by the United States, and the (CIA's) involvement there was really primary," Morris says.

His version of history is a far cry from current American rhetoric about Iraq, a country that top U.S. officials say has been liberated from decades of tyranny and given the chance for a bright democratic future.

There's no mention of America's own alleged role in giving birth to the regime.

[maryf]

13. America's own alleged role in giving birth to the regime

same in so many other countries, (bin laden with CIA too!),
thanks so much! :yourock:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

14. Fax are stubborn things once the ink goes on... n't

[maryf]

19. ps. "it was mostly American money" always...

Follow the money, follow the potential loss of money from oil when Hussein went rogue...

[Hannah Bell]

10. less. many times less. take a look at population growth if you don't believe it.

and the US signed on to those deaths, too.

It only changed its tune when saddam tried to assert his independence.

[maryf]

15. Thanks!!

check out HysteryDiagnosis post just above, tons of info on this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8898158&mesg_id=8898324

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

31. Does this mean that you supported Bush's invasion and occupation?

[Martin Eden]

34. What were the causes of their deaths?

In the wake of the first gulf war Bush 41 encouraged the Kurds & Shiites to rise up against Saddam, giving them the impression the US would help them overthrow the tyrant. They rose up and we didn't help and Saddam butchered them by the thousands. The first gulf war could have been avoided in the first place if Bush 41 hadn't told Saddam we take no sides in Arab vs Arab conflicts before he invaded Kuwait.

Then, during 12 years of US/UN imposed sanctions, half a million Iraqi children died because of those crippling sanctions. It's easy enough to blame it all on Saddam (one of the most despicable tyrants ever to walk the earth) but the fact is that we played a major role in the tragedy of Iraq. Hell, Saddam was our guy in the 1980's and we provided him with WMD and military intelligence in his bloody 8 year war against Iran.

BTW, what point were you trying to make?

[Hannah Bell]

7. kr.

[Ichingcarpenter]

11. Backed up with real data

Shame on the US war criminals
Kick/nom

[maryf]

22. shame on those who refuse to call them such...nt

[Quantess]

17. Eh, who cares?

[maryf]

20. ARE YOU KIDDING?

Who cares about the deaths of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions? are you human? I'm sorry this is the most disgusting post I've read in a long time...(unless you're kidding?)

[L0oniX]

18. Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered In US War And Occupation Of Iraq "1,366,350"

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/index.html

[maryf]

21. That's what I'd seen too!

couldn't remember where at the moment, thanks so much...

[readmoreoften]

27. Prolly all THE BAD GUYS!!!!1111!!!!

:sarcasm:

I swear to god some of these people sound like they're apologizing for Bush/Cheney in order to defend Obama.

[maryf]

24. goodnight kick...nt

[Dhalgren]

25. Kick for those who pretend not to know these facts.

The shame is real, even if it be denied...

[maryf]

30. That will have to be one HUGE kick!!

do you play soccer? :hi:

[leftstreet]

28. K&R

[Starry Messenger]

29. k & r

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

32. K&R .... it was more than a million 2 years ago.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gRd3Bi6CXI94ke9t9CgxqcZ1wPNw

[Martin Eden]

33. RW Doublethink: It was a "liberation" and "It's better to fight them over there than over here"

Doublethink (aka cognitive dissonance) is the ability to believe two contradictory ideas at the same time.

The same RW'ers who characterize our invasion of Iraq as a "liberation" -- and go so far as to say the Iraqis should be grateful for all we have sacrificed to help them -- also cling to the "flypaper theory" that it was a smart move to make Iraq a battleground to which all the terrorists and jihadists would flock so we could fight them "over there" instead of over here.

Besides the fact that theory is full of holes (most of the people we fought in Iraq were Iraqis who wouldn't have fought us at all if we hadn't invaded their country, and our invasion helped to recruit a new generation of terrorists) it hasn't dawned on these rightwing nutjobs that invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 for the purpose of turning the streets of its cities into bloody battlegrounds where we could lure and fight vicious terrorists is a WAR CRIME of the highest magnitude that forfeits any claim that this was done for humanitarian reasons.

I can understand it when some ignorant dipshit believes that nonsense, but when the friggin President of the United States and one of our two mainstream political parties are purveyors of that steaming pile of excrement, I am filled with disgust rather than pride in my country.

[Octafish]

35. BFEE and the War Party have lusted after Iraq's oil for a looooong time.

Sen. Prescott Bush wrote an interesting article for Reader's Digest on war for Iraq's oil in 1959...

Thank you for the heads-up on the article. Thanks also for fighting the Good Fight, maryf.

[maryf]

39. Thanks for your article!!

It's a keeper, solidarity, Octafish!

[Desertrose]

37. We need to be reminded of this.

If we can't even remember the Oiltastrophe in the Gulf of of Mexico..we definitely need reminding of what the "war in Iraq" cost in human lives...ALL of them.

:(

K&R