Now here is something serious re: GIbbs

[nadinbrzezinski]

I have been making fun of it all day, because that is one way to deal with bullies, and that statement was a classic from a bully. And yes, there is a HISTORIC and LONG trend in the US to disenfranchise and alienate the Left, whatever the left is, professional or not for that matter.

But here is the problem a lot of the people defending this are missing.

The Left is part of the base. The ones here are paying attention. No, 99% of Americans have not tuned in. (Ok more like 70%) but here is the problem. How many of the folks who were under direct attack by Gibbs will simply give up and stay home? What is more, ho many of them will talk to neighbors to STAY HOME in November?

That is the part of the calculus that a few people are missing here.

This is an OFF YEAR election, they tend to have POOR voter turn out as is, with a better turn out for the Republicans. Now that IS the HISTORIC pattern. So all of you defending Gibbs, defend this, potentially, and perhaps not meant as, voter suppression.

Oh and for those going but you have not said about the good news today? You know Warren and Jobs bill? Two things... yes those are good pieces of news, but again, 70% of Americans have not tuned in. And of that 70%, we will be lucky if oh 20% tunes in six weeks before the election, for a grand total, best case of 40% of the potential electorate. So you sure you can piss off that base? You really sure of that?

No I am not asking you to think rationally... since a lot of emotion is pouring out here. OH and spare me the rational people would argument... because in the course of political discourse we might be reaching a critical point... and that is the point when the electorate fully gives up on standard politics, and starts questioning the legitimacy of the system. Yes, we are having an old fashioned populist revolt in the US... what do you think the Tea Party is? What do you think what you hear here is? We have them from time to time, about once a generation. And we may be reaching that point... have at it, alienating the base... and if and when that populist revolt takes final form... watch out...

I am hoping that as usual it will remain mostly peaceful and within the ballot box... but populist revolutions tend to have interesting aspects to all of them.

But have at it, defending Gibbs, inserting foot in mouth... and yes I get his frustration, but there is a reason why HE ALREADY WALKED IT BACK. That is YOUR FREE CLUE of the day.

[eleny]

1. kr

[peacebird]

2. How many progressives will VOTE, and NOT for a DLC/DEM but for a third party candidate

or a write in? Seriously - My husband and I are DONE with "holding our noses" to vote for the less evil candidate just because they are more electable. We will vote our progressive hearts from here on out.

Perhaps if the dems had actually FOUGHT for single payer or repealed DADT or closed gitmo or....
BUT they have done NONE of the above. I am through voting for the lesser of the two evils and then getting dissed by the likes of Rahm and Gibbs. I am a progressive liberal. The dems have left me behind in their Clinton/DLC center RIGHT surge.
Why should I give them my time/effort/money/vote? Because they suck LESS than the other side? Really?

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. And that is part of the coming populist revolution

we are at one of those rare points of political realignment, I suspect. Why we had that lovely statement from Gibbs today...

We are more than just gnatts at this point.

[peacebird]

7. yes.

[mzmolly]

3. Gibbs did not "attack the left" he said some paid professionals

were equating Obama to Bush and he felt that comparison was nutty. :shrug: Unless I'm missing something?

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Why was it walked back?

If that was the only meaning, why did he walk it back this afternoon?

[mzmolly]

10. Because of the kerfuffle?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Because they realize this will cost them some citically

needed votes.

They hit a nerve... and they know it.

[mzmolly]

16. I think that criticism is fair when it comes to people who equate Obama to Bush.

And, I think the WH is entitled to fight back against such absurdity, KWIM? But again, I may have missed a portion of the conversation that pertains.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. You may not like this, once again,

but losing these votes is not a good thing.

You may not like people comparing Bush and Obama... (nevertheless at the policy level the comparison is appropriate in a few big picture items, don't ask, we will be here all night and they are somewhat obscure to most Americans, and involve Empire).

But those people have a right to make them.

And the WH going the way they did... may get what they don't want... how do you think Impeachment and Obama will work out for smaller policy matters?

What about closing down the Government? While that benefited Clinton... it might not work that way.

They may realize this little problem....

Perhaps you don't, but they may. At this point, making that kind of a statement, I have my doubts about their abilities while in office. (And I am talking of the political office vis a vis the base, aka the voting public)

[mzmolly]

29. Of course people have a right to make absurd comparisons. But others have a right to point out the

absurdity as well.

Klein made a good point on this however. He indicated that given liberals still support Obama, what's the harm in critique? I guess that's what I'll try to hold onto before I panic about the next election.

Peace :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Here is an absurd comparison

has Posse Comitatus been restored?

(It has to do with the National Security State but that was done by Junior, and no, it has not)

I told you they'd be obscure, but there are a few, at the grand policy level, where the comparison is more than just appropriate. A little less obscure, the new normal regarding the National Security State and attacks on the Fourth Amendment. A few of the people you attack for making the comparison, like oh the ACLU, have made the comparison on those grounds. You think they are still ridiculous?

And in off year elections they cannot afford to lose those votes.

[mzmolly]

41. The ACLU defended corporations, equating them to human beings

in Citizens United. I think that was Bush like, myself. ;)

Also, as Ezra Klein pointed out today, criticism on the left isn't translating into an erosion of liberal support according to poll after poll.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Yeah they tend to follow what they understand their core

principles and have since foundation.

I may not agree with them on a few, but what you engaged in is classic deflection.

So you think there is no reason to criticize the POTUS? Why? Because he is a Democrat? Is that the reason? Is that your bottom position? If that is the position, I recommend truly you find a book called The True Believer. It is an oldie but a goodie, and it applies to members of BOTH parties.

TO me this is not a damn football game, but that is just me, and in a few things the comparison is more than just apt. In others it is hyperbole, but then again... saying that we want DOD cancelled and destroyed was also hyperbole.

That said, what GIBBS told me today tells me that the left they despise is more than just a gnatt any more.

[mzmolly]

46. You brought up the ACLU. I continued the conversation about them.

I never said there is not legitimate critique of the President. In fact, I agreed with Olbermann tonight when he said how maddening it is to watch Obama compromise with Republicans who are not interested in compromise.

Also, I don't feel despised by this President, personally.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. What was the message from GIBBS?

which by the way fits a HISTORIC trend going back to the 1820s?

Oh never mind.

And I agree with Olberman too, but the WH should move away from base attacks and actually take on the right. From where I stand, that is not what they are doing most of the time. I know why... and part of the reason are the LOUSY voting rates in the US... which means political elites are to the right of the country... but that is a whole different discussion.

Oh and Obama is like bush is like Clinton is like... you get the picture, going back at least fifty years due to the needs of Empire. That includes, in my opinion, moving progressively right, to the point that the US is falling from the edge... and the American left is... all but existent any more to the political elites.

By the way, our political left and right in this country are so narrow, and narrowly close it is maddening.

[mzmolly]

48. I'm going to fully agree with you here.

"The WH should move away from base attacks and actually take on the right." Absolutely! And in doing this, I surmise that critics on the left will start to regain respect for the White House again.

[pocoloco]

24. First time you ever had a Strawman's boot up your ass?

Just curious.

[mzmolly]

31. First time you ever said something

completely ridiculous in an attempt at dialog? Just curious.

[ljm2002]

28. And who are these "people who equate Obama to Bush"?

It's analogous to "some people say...".

[mzmolly]

32. I'll refer you to Gibbs on that question.

DU recently updated its rules to deal with the issue here.

[CreekDog]

38. that makes me feel better, he didn't mean to apologize

he meant what he said, and walking it back was lying to calm some of us down.

this is the problem with defending what doesn't need defending.

[mzmolly]

42. My point was what he said initially is being misinterpreted.

I think he "clarified" his comments today, not walked them back. But you're free to continue feeling badly and all.

I supposed I should clarify myself in saying I don't speak for Robert Gibbs.

[Uben]

6. No, you are exactly right!

HE specifically said "professional left", which means those who are compensated to promote politics. That leaves 99% of the people here out, so why all the commotion?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Why then did he walk it back?

Somebody realized the foot in mouth moment.

That is why.

The actions of the WH today tell you what they meant... regardless of the mental gymnastics, and I am sure a few realized what I just explained to you. They are trying to rescue some of those votes.

[peacebird]

11. probably because Ed and the "Professional left" are speaking what Progressives believe

and as such progressives are po'd that those in the media who voice our concerns are summarily denigrated and dismissed by the official WH spokesman?

Just a guess....

[mzmolly]

15. But Ed didn't equate Obama to Bush did he?

I guess I'm not sure why Ed took it personally. Love Ed, watch his show nearly every day by the way.

[mzmolly]

13. That was my take as well.

The fact that some of the "professionals" in question, appear to insist he was attacking the left is a bit puzzling. Again, unless I'm missing something.

[hfojvt]

27. because too many here have compared Obama to Bush

So the shoe fit.

[zipplewrath]

17. Actually several things

Not just the bush= obama, but also something about shutting down DoD. Who is that? Or should we not take him quite that literally. But if we shouldn't take him literally, then who WAS he talking about? Was he engaging in a bit of hyperbole? But then isn't that what the people he is complaining about were doing?

[mzmolly]

18. "Was he engaging in a bit of hyperbole?"

It would appear so. I suppose Code Pink would want the Pentagon shut down, but they're not professionals so I don't know who he referenced in that comment. Perhaps those who say we should cut the military budget while we're at war?

[zipplewrath]

23. And the irony is thick

Because his primary complaint was about the bit of exaggeration of "the professional left" who describe Obama as "just like Bush". So he criticizes them using hyperbole.

[mzmolly]

33. True.

:hi:

[tnlefty]

30. Why would Code Pink want the Pentagon shut down? Spouting

or proof. I don't know anyone who wants the Pentagon shut down...accounting for billions lost, yes! Bloated budgets cut, yes. Even Ben and Jerry's offered up a plan to cut the military budget by ceasing to keep old nuclear armaments, but just keep trash talking Code Pink if it makes you feel better.

Oh, may I rec. a dark comedy, Dr. Strangelove, if you haven't seen it. It will make clear in a funny way that the military, (okay the top brass) only thinks of war, and armaments even when they know one of their own is crazed.

[mzmolly]

35. I like Code Pink. My suggestion about who was referenced, was merely that.

http://blogs.star-telegram.com/politex/2010/08/obama-to-be-greeted-in-dallas-by-tea-partiers-and-antiwar-activists.html

[tnlefty]

39. Merely what?

Nothing about Code Pink wanting the Pentagon shut down, or liberals in general, as Fibby Gibbs stated. :shrug:

And if Fibby Gibbs is still trying to draw a false equivalency between the teabaggers there and Code Pink, well I can't help you or him.

[mzmolly]

43. Merely a guess as to who he may be referencing.

:hi:

[Bluenorthwest]

21. He failed to point out who said that, and made it a broad brush

deal. He also said far more than you are stating. He went after those who think health care should be a universal right, he used a current Democratic candidate, Kucinich, as a bit of negative rhetorical fodder, he used hyperbole, and he has yet to back up his accusations. His unsupported attack of this vast imagined 'liberal media' that the mushy centrist Gibbs types dream of. As if the media was filled with liberals. I mean, since when?
Who the fuck was he talking about?

[mzmolly]

45. You're certainly free to characterize his statements as you wish.

I'm familiar with the reference to Canada and the notion that as liberal as Kucinich is, those who equate Obama to Bush, would be pissing on him if he were President, too.

[tsuki]

9. I don't know where you are getting your 70%, but a lot more of my

friends are tuned in.

During a party on Friday, many of my friends with an R after their name, were talking about the Republicans refusing to help the 911 responders because they could not attach a tax cut for their corporate buddies to the bill. They seemed to feel that the 911 bill deserved an up or down vote (up or down vote, where have I heard this before), not this 2/3 crap.

Since the oil spill, there has been a lot of rumors concerning the health of the responders, vomiting blood, passing blood, no "official" reports, but everyone has "heard" about it. They know how the Republicons will vote for the responders of the Gulf Coast.

The most interesting thing that happened was a former hardcore Republicon, one of the hardest of the hardcore, asked if anyone had seen that guy telling everyone to sit down and shut up while it was his turn to talk, and, if you believed in it you should vote for it. I asked, you mean Anthony Weiner. Yea, he said, Anthony Weiner. Anthony Weiner was his kind of guy.

I pointed out that he lost, but several people told me, at least he fought.

Americans prefer fighters. If you are going to lie down and roll over every time anyone says no, the people are not going to listen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. From statistics that Political Scientists work with

my friends are VERY TUNED IN... I could safely say that this is over 80% of my friends. But we are the exception from national polling data.

Here form the Census

http://elections.gmu.edu/voter_turnout.htm

[Hello_Kitty]

19. You are absolutely right about the populist uprising.

And the DLCers don't get it.

[tnlefty]

25. No they don't...

as a result the baggers on the right are filling that vacuum for some, not all racist folk, but angry.

There needs to be a counterpart from the left to offset the void....

[Hello_Kitty]

36. I'm here at Immigration Ground Zero in Arizona.

Watching in horror as the corporate/elitist Dems who run the party here fumble around on a coherent response.

[cdsilv]

37. I will vote, and vote democratic, but yes I am pissed off.

Politicians ONLY respond to MONEY anymore, not votes. Even Obama - he's caught up in it. But supposedly, votes rule. SUPPOSEDLY. I'd really like to move to another country because I'm sick and tired of this shit. Where to go?

but for various reasons, I'm stuck here so I'm going to try to stick it out

These times remind me of the Heinlein story about the Interregnum, when a religious nut named Nehemiah Scudder came to power as a demagogue and ruled like a christian despot. It did not end well.

Unless we are vigilant and adopt tea-party tactics, we'll be trod under ("don't tread on me"). Adapt or die.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Ah fellow Heinlein fan

the other one that at times I am reminded off is... Star Ship Troopers. The way we are treating Vets might not end well either.

[autorank]

49. Thanks for the clue k*r

You need every willing hand and he's pissing on the hand that feeds him.

These guys are hopeless, really amateur.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. You welcome and no I don't think they are amateur

That is what they think, and we are getting fully... a 1994 pattern emerging. Who do you think they will blame? Easy target too...

[autorank]

54. There's no such thing as being too smart

And you are! Of course, "It's "da blame!!!" At that to Stinky the Clown's latest opus and you've got the total picture. Putting your logic together, they know they'll lose, they have contempt for us, therefore, we're the sacrificial lambs. Ask not what you can do for your party, ask what your party will do to you!

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. The problem is that we are having a populist

ahem revolution in the air... and that might not look pretty...

That is the part these guys are truly missing.

[backwoodsbob]

51. there are three groups that vote regularely in off years

and I mean in the biggest numbers as a percentage of their groups total

far left
far right
seniors

Guess which group got a kick in the nuts?

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. I know

1994 pattern emerging... and who will get blamed for that? Same group.

[BlackHoleSon]

56. Preemptive strike?

This is a little off topic and I don't want to go down conspiracy alley - that being said - is it possible that their polling data and economic data are so depressing that they are already setting the table for a further post-midterm-election move to the right by so blatantly alienating and calling out the Left? Is this, in fact, a very calculated move?

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. It could be

and if that is the case, they are setting the stage for something that they might not be able to control

[wiggs]

52. Hartmann: Gibbs was head of foundation that smeared Howard Dean in 2004. Thought

that's what you were going to post. I think it's on Common Dreams as well. Starts to paint a picture.

[sendero]

57. I've been saying it for a couple of months...

.. and I mean it, I will not vote for Obama again. I'd had enough back when it was Rahm spouting off.

Obama does not represent me or my ideals in the slightest. Is he better than a Republican? Yes, but not by much. Not enough, in the face of all of this verbal abuse and this horrible horrible legislation touted as a "victory", to motivate me to drive to a polling place.

I will still vote for local and state Dems that are worth voting for, such as the TX governor's race. But Obama can stuff it.

And I have friends, not DU friends but real life friends, that feel the same way. The idea that it is only wild-eyed leftists that are pissed is ludicrous, and these tin-eared dummies are going to find out real soon.

[TheKentuckian]

59. Just on pure politics this group is foolish

Mid-terms are base elections so you play to the base in the first half and then try to attract independents to get another term.

Emmanuel is a total loser trapped forever in the mid nineties and with his lips locked on some mover and shaker anus and it has been bush league "centrist" bullshit ever since he joined the team and got the keys.

The politics are even worse than the recycled Republican policies.

[Ignis]

60. K&R for some good points.

:kick:

Same as it ever was...but the smart mouthpieces avoid saying it.