There was no insult to anyone at DU by what Gibbs said.

[grantcart]

Gibbs was referring to a small number of people who have gone to demogogical extremes equating Bush and Obama.

That is absurd and its aimed at a very small number of people who don't believe it themselves but engage in overheated rhetoric to draw attention to their profiles in the media.



“I hear these people saying he’s like George Bush. Those people ought to be drug tested,” Gibbs said. “I mean, it’s crazy.”


In fact equating Obama with Bush is considered so outlandish it is specifically listed in the alert notice accessible on every post:

Broadly suggesting that there is no difference between Barack Obama and George W. Bush, or that there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans.

DU considers it 'psycho babble' and so does Gibbs.

[AlabamaLibrul]

1. Like =/= no difference. And surely you're aware that's not all he said. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

2. What else did he say?

Please enlightened us?

[grantcart]

3. Your quibbling about words that are different without a distinction

edited to add what Gibbs said would be accepted as "Broadly suggesting that there is no difference between Barack Obama" by any reasonable person.


The rest of what he said was aimed at the people who equate Bush with Obama. Unless you accept that equation then the words have no meaning. Rational people will agree that even if there is strong policy disagreements with Obama that equating Obama with Bush is dellusional, making a reference to the influence of drugs to arrive at it was a gentle poke at what all but a few individuals will agree is rhetorical absurdity.

[lame54]

38. He called us crazy - he never called the teabaggers crazy...

Gibbs equates anybody who protest Obama policies that were held by Bush as those who say "Obama's the same as Bush"

I do not think that Obama is the same as Bush but many of his policies are

Am I crazy for wanting those policies changed?

[LooseWilly]

4. "Of those who complain that Obama caved to centrists on issues such as healthcare reform, Gibbs said

“They wouldn’t be satisfied if Dennis Kucinich was president.”

Obviously, it's either the "sanity" of Obama (who negotiates everything away before the negotiations) or the "insanity" of Kucinich (whose negotiation style we'll never know anything about, because he admitted to both supporting LGBT full-equality, and also to seeing a UFO, in the 2008 election).

He's apparently obviously insane. Many right-wing types will tell you so, if you are willing to waste enough time listening to the horseshit they're liable to spout in the process of "speaking".

Wouldn't it be a hassle if my interpretations had the imprimatur of "reality", rather than those of some other asshole, despite his being older and maybe knowing some other assholes who maybe killed some people to cement his claim on the land... ? Alas, such should fail to be the case... I'll need to find an Indian entrepreneur who might be willing to share a piece-of-the-action in exchange for a good story like that and some English instruction.... here in the US the prejudice against the workers is so awful that it not only makes the Indian Caste System seem mild, but it makes the possibility of trying to work a similar deal with an American boss the height of idiocy.

Fuck You, USA.
Does that make me a Leftist?

If I'm to be deported, can I choose unto where?... A free trip out of this shithole country would be mighty handy, that's for Allah-Damned-Sure...

[MajorChode]

32. As far as that statement goes, I happen to agree

Remember that Kucinich ultimately voted for HCR. So had he been president, he would have signed HCR just like Obama did and there would have been a shitload of people screaming for his head just like Obama.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

111. Had Kucinich been president, there would've been no bill to sign. (nt)

[Solomon]

140. Exactly.

[Iggo]

110. 'They wouldn’t be satisfied if Dennis Kucinich was president.'

He's wrong about that, though.

[Solomon]

141. It would be worse with Kucinich. He's considered to be far more

left than Obama and the moment Kucinich did something "moderate" (which he would have to do as president) DU would be throwing him under the bus so fast people would be asking, "who was that"?

[Itchinjim]

5. Great post. Too bad it going to fall on deaf ears.

Too many DUers enjoy their outrage too much to listen to any kind of rational thought.

[LooseWilly]

6. the only "support" the post offered to it's perspective is DU rules of who can speak on what topic.

Do you really imagine those rules equate to "truth"? Or, are they just a set of "groundrules" regarding "standing" for descrimination and what-have-you claims against this "governmnet"?

Let the games begin:

[POAS]

30. Your contention is flawed before it gets

out of the subject line.

the only "support" the post offered to it's perspective is DU rules of who can speak on what topic.

The rule talks about WHAT can be said and says nothing about "who can speak".

You may not like the rule, you may not like Obama and you may even like Bush but the rules allow you to express your likes and dislikes without resorting to insult or negative comparisons which are merely aimed at insulting without furthering a positive agenda for the Democratic party or the nation.

[EFerrari]

21. Rational thought and rationalization are not the same thing. n/t

[POAS]

31. I have seen that proven time and time again here at DU

Thank you for making that perfectly clear for us all.

[Scurrilous]

143. Indeed. n/t

[KharmaTrain]

7. It's All About Proving Whose "Right"...

Dare I say when I heard the Gibbs remark the first thought was how the knives would be out at DU and I sure wasn't disappointed. The tolerance level is below zero for this administration and any slight is taken in the darkest, most negative way. It's like watching an abusive relationship where the love turned to hate and now it's all about proving who did who wrong.

The presumption that the "liberals" or "Progressives" elected this administration has been an exageration at best and disengenous for those with other agendas. The vote cut across many different groups, ages and regions and all for their own reasons. I always looked at the election not as an end...where some liberal or progressive wave would sweep the country, but the start toward a gradual shift from center right to center left...to change the focus from wars and tax breaks for the rich to healthcare and economic reform. Overturning 30 years of right wing onslaught of the body politic and media wasn't going to happen overnight...and sadly I've seen Democrats come close, but yet oh so far.

I wish this administration were more proactive and didn't attempt to compromise with those whose sole intent is to see this administration fail, but the focus has shifted to some of the same purity tests that are destroying the GOOP and not unlike the rifts I saw in the 70s that opened the doors to 30 years of Raygunomics.

Yes, Progressives have been right on a majority of the issues and this administration has squandered opportunities. It's frustrating to see all the optimism of 2 years ago evaporate into the name calling and infighting that could take the years of hard-earned gains of the netroots and watch it all fall apart. Frustrating and madenning.

[sendero]

22. Of course progressive did ..

... not elect Obama. But he won't be re-elected without us, you can take that to the bank.

[KharmaTrain]

25. I Only Take Checks To The Bank...

...as far as politics nothing is a given nor should it be. Elections are won by organization and appealing to many groups not just one...a reason the current GOOP is "purifying" itself from being a national party. More imporant than "us" to politicians are the large donors...no bucks, no buck rogers...those are the people who matter and who this administration considers their base.

[olegramps]

63. In this economy you must one of the lucky ones that still gets checks.

I can fully understand why many Democrats that supported Obama are disappointed. Firstly, in his lack of leadership in regard to passing comprehensive health care like what Canadians enjoy and which Gibbs evidently thinks is a piece of shit. I certainly don't think that people are being forced to buy health insurance from the very insurance companies that are responsible for driving up health care cost is what the base of the party desired. As far as claiming to have passed rigorous reform of financial institutions, the administration totally caved in to the demands of Wall Street.

We have to just admit that Obama is no FDR. FDR had no problem with telling the Wall Street robber barons that he was their sworn enemy and that he regarded their hatred as a compliment. There are times in which there is no room for compromise. Unfortunately, Obama actions are far removed from what he says that he stands for. He gives pretty speeches and thats where it all ends. His speeches remind me of Alice in Wonderland.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes-and ships-and sealing wax-
Of cabbages-and kings-
And why the sea is boiling hot-
And whether pigs have wings."

You know what they think of the base? They think that we have no where to go and that in the end we will be faced with voting for them anyway. They may be right but, what they have lost is that massive and growing independent group of voters who decide elections. And you know what, polls show they are losing them because of the lack of leadership that is most evident to even minimally informed citizens. This especially true of the younger voters who were a powerful influence in the last election. The people running the show are so damn inept that they can't even match wits with a pack of racist nincompoops wearing tea bags. Yeah, all of us that welcomed and dreamed in the changes that were promised are just a bunch of brain dead whiny dope addicts that want to close down the Pentagon.

[KharmaTrain]

70. The "Base"...

Seems that's where there's a big disconnect here. This administration sees the "base" very differently than those around here do. For many politicians their "base" are those who write the big checks...who really do make the difference in today's fetid and money-oriented political world. No question there are changes needed in this system that had led to water-downed "Reforms" and token legislation that has so many here frustrated. Shorten the election season, restore the provision of the Fairness doctrine that requires broadcast stations to sell political advertising at their lowest rate (not the rape 'em rates of the past decade) and pass a bill reversing the SCOTUS ruling that enables corporations to spend wildly. That's just the first steps.

Personally I could care less what Robert Gibbs says or thinks...it's action that I care about. The wingnuts must be having quite a laugh right now.

Cheers...

[dmallind]

42. Luckily, he still has extremely high support amongst progressives and liberals

The fringe tiny minority who can't see the difference between him and Bush can piss up a rope and vote for Greens (probably again) and make no damn difference. 2000 won't happen again no matter how much the purist ideologues want it to.

[Hekate]

8. KnR all the way to Zero

Good luck, grantcart.

[JonLP24]

10. You can't have it both ways

The people that support what Gibbs said are trying to have it both ways. That he is talking about us or that he isn't talking about us and our outrage is phony because of it.

You start a thread that says this
"So now it appears that someone somewhere near the White House actually HAS read the ranting at DU.

How did you EXPECT it to make them feel? All warm and fuzzy and ready to do anything you want? Or like they're being kicked and cursed at no matter what they do?"

Now you weren't clear so I could be totally of base but from reading that it seems to me that you're saying someone near the White House has read are rantings and your last paragraph seems to indicate they were reacting based on what people on DU are saying. Now you are K&R a thread that says Gibbs wasn't talking about us.

[POAS]

34. I don't believe that Gibbs was

referring to anyone here or about DU specifically. I seriously doubt he has ever even looked at or read DU.

However, some here echo the rhetoric of Obama's blind critics on both the left and the right and those that disagree with those critics often do and are right to disagree with those comments where they are either flat out wrong or merely intended to be divisive.

[JonLP24]

36. I don't think so either

However people complaining about us being critical shown up in threads saying he was talking about us, the critics in general. Then they show up in other threads saying we're outraged over nothing! They weren't talking about us. No, it was the "professional"s he was talking about.

You may have your complaints about blind critics but those are just as bad to me as blind supporters.

[EFerrari]

39. Good catch.

It's been interesting to see the evolution of these justifications. He was right, they are not the base, you are not the base, he wasn't talking about you and now, he wasn't insulting anyone at DU.

[JonLP24]

9. My gut feeling

is it was a misrepresentation of actual criticisms of continuation of Bush-era policies such as indefinite detention. The reason I say that is he totally misrepresented any claims about getting rid of the pentagon. Myself and many, many, people on the left would like to see a reduced military budget and use that money to pay for social programs that help people.

[geckosfeet]

11. He certainly continues some of the policies that buSh did.

Escalating never ending war (Afghanistan).

Gays in the military.

Economic policy that favors the rich and big business.

Detention and privacy matters regarding US citizens.

Obama is of course, a very different person than it was, but some of his policies seem to emanate from the same corporate sponsorships.

[Capitalocracy]

13. I was definitely insulted.

Add to that list extrajudicial execution, war crimes, lack of transparency, abuse of classification of government documents to cover up crimes.........

And when Gibbs talks about people who "compare him to Bush" he means "anyone who doesn't willfully ignore all the criminal policies Bush implemented that are still in place."

I've often wondered when it would be the appropriate time to start calling for accountability for crimes against humanity by the Obama administration because he's failed to end the criminal policies of the Bush administration. I think we're past that point now.

[geckosfeet]

14. As was I.

[AngryAmish]

12. wrong

[CTLawGuy]

15. wow this was unrecced fast

and all you did was clarify what Gibbs actually said. Does this mean people don't actually CARE what he said and are just going to ASSUME he said something else and get mad about THAT?

[Warren Stupidity]

16. around one tenth of DU agrees with your opinion.

So when you write "DU considers" you are as off base, pun intended, there as you are in the rest of your post.

[mmonk]

17. Who are they?

[boston bean]

18. of course you wouldn't think he wasn't speaking to du.

I think it's quite convenient how Gibbs argument aligns with those who want others to sit down and stfu here on DU.

[Vinca]

19. I hate to say it, but there are some similarities to Bush's policies

when it comes to the ongoing wars, terrorism and intelligence gathering. Bob Gates, for example, was running the show for Bush and is now pretty much running it for Obama. Drones were killing innocent civilians under Bush and they continue to kill innocent civilians under Obama. Bodies are still coming home in flag-draped coffins, the only difference being we're allowed to see them. Facts are facts and just because a Democrat is occupying the seat doesn't make them right.

[sendero]

23. I have said.

... that Obama is a smoother talking Bush. I stand by my assertion. On all of the major issues he has merely continued Bush's policies. It's not really even an argument.

[MissDeeds]

27. Agree completely n/t

[stray cat]

29. Obama loves his children and Bush loves his children - SO Obama is just like Bush!

areas of agreement with someone doesn't mean you are a clone

[JonLP24]

33. The subject line

of the post you responded to said they have similar policies. Nowhere did that poster say he was clone so I have no idea why you felt to point out he wasn't a clone when it wasn't said at all.

See this is what I think Gibbs did. He misrepresented a complaint such as Obama is continuing the Bush-era policy of indefinite detention w/ no access to habaes corpus and Gibbs misrepresented a complaint like that as Obama is just the same as Bush.

[Mimosa]

20. Gibbs is tiresome and contemptuous

http://open.salon.com/blog/kevin_gosztola/2009/05/14/obama_employs_bush_administration_tactic_blocks_photos

[piratefish08]

24. Thanks for determining whether I should feel insulted or not.

This board is becoming a great resource in determining which feelings I should or should not have in these trying times.

[depakid]

26. You just lost whatever credibility you ever had

Whoever took your takes seriously- well, after that lame post, they won't again.

Sorry to say, but it's true.

Made your bed with that bit.

[stray cat]

28. The fact that so many are offended - suggest they do embrace the Bush = Obama meme

otherwise why be upset unless you consider yourself a member of the offended party. If Gibbs insulted birthers would DUers be outraged - No - because they don't fit the birthers group

[dmallind]

44. Precisely the point.

He insulted the very furthest fringe by honestly describing them as so.

Since the very furthest fringe wants to be seen as the base they were insulted by being honestly described.

People who are on that far fringe are now showing how offended they were.

A sizeable contingent on DU is on that furthest fringe, as can be seen by differences between support for things like ending capitalism and nominating Kucinich at DU and among the party or population as a whole.

That's why the outrage is confined to the fringe places. The progressive caucus isn't saying they were insulted. Neither are the members of Congress with 100% ratings from almsot all progressive pressure groups. The people saying they were insulted are on the web sites where echo-chambers feed the outrage of dozens until it swells to the voice of millions in their minds.

If you don't think Obama is the same as Bush how can you be insulted by those who do being called crazy? If you do, then the shoe fits.

[EFerrari]

127. In Bizarro World, maybe. n/t

[NJmaverick]

131. Are you saying there have not been repeated comments here at DU

that Bush=Obama?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

35. Your post and many others like it have negavite recs

The reality is that you and the small handful of other who share your sentiment are in the minority. An extremely small minority who talks a lot and says very little. I hope you know that you along with about 10 or so other people agree with your OP, but thats about it. I for one am not going to let you people bully us anymore.

[phleshdef]

53. LOL! OMGZ NEGATIVE RECS! I WONT BE BULLIED ANYMORE!

Such drama queen bullshit.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phleshdef]

60. Wow. You are just all over the place with your craziness.

I don't even know where to start with that kind of psycho babble so I think I'll just laugh at it instead.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phleshdef]

71. LOL! You think what I'm doing actually effects this President one way or the other?

President Obama: "Hmm, Phleshdef is defending me on DU and he is getting mad RECS, so I MUST be doing the right thing!"

I LOVE your "reality"!!!

[spiritual_gunfighter]

No actually I dont think you alone affect shit

but I think when many of us complain to the White House and let them know we are unhappy that is the catalysis for change. Take for example the Public Option, although in the end we never got it, remember in May of last year or so the PO was considered completely dead, only through the grass roots, groups like Firedoglake and others made the PO an issue and the Obama adminstration had to address it again, and trot it out and pretend like they were going to consider it.

Obviously Obama had no intention of having the Public Option in the final bill, but through people complaining about it, they started talking about it again and many in Congress were pushing it.

If you really think that you personally are without a voice in Politics and you cant do things to change the way things are. I wonder why you even are following politics and post on DU. If you cant effect the outcome, you must feel pretty helpless in this process.

So why are you here?

[phleshdef]

77. FDL didn't effect shit. The PO remained an issue because of progressive caucus members.

And it didn't have the votes to get through the Senate, end of story.

I'm here because I feel like being here. I owe you no explanations.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

80. So you believe that only elected officials

are catalysis' for change and not the people who vote. That is an interesting perspective, but I cant help but think you must feel really helpless in the Political process, again why do you post here and engage in Political discussion when you cant do anything to change it?

[phleshdef]

89. Of course not. I'm just not so in love with myself that I actually think my DU posts...

...are going to effect political process. If the majority of critical progressives actually wanted to do something, we would take a play from the tea bagger playbook and go raise some hell with the media. But we don't do that. We elect a guy and then bitch when he isn't able to deliver everything we wanted or bitch that he isn't able to deliver things that aren't politically possible and accuse him of being like his predecessor. Sounds like a bunch of people on drugs to me.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

94. yep I bitch all right

I have even called the White House and spoke with the operator a few times. I will continue to bitch too, no one is going to stop me from doing that because I want the President to be the best President he can be, you dont. You want everyone to shut the fuck up so it doesnt ruin his chances of reelection.

You know what fucks up the President's chances of reelection? When his Press Secretary tells a part of his base that they need to be drug tested and that they are unrealistic and want "Canadian healthcare" (oh noes)!

That kinda throws a wrench into the ol reelection campaign dont ya think? A lot more than complaining about the President being able to assassinate Americans, or warrentless wiretapping, or the bullshit war in Afganistan, or indefinite detention, or DOMA, or dont ask dont tell, or shitty health "reform" bills, or watered down Wall Street reform that doesnt reform shit.

Yep the President will continue to hear from me, and you and the BOG will continue to sit on the sidelines and throw spitballs at liberals. Be proud of yourself.

[phleshdef]

97. I don't think you have any power to effect his chances of re-election.

I just think your appalling little ME ME ME attitude is pathetic and your grossly overvalued sense of self importance is laughable. So therefore I make fun. At the end of the day, what you and others (including myself) groan on about on an internet message board lacks any real importance, to me, to the majority of Americans and to any administration, regardless of who runs it.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phleshdef]

107. Well, you and many others are purposefully misinterpreting what he said.

He didn't trash people who want Canadian healthcare. He trashed the people that are demanding something like that and then getting angry with the admnistration because they can't magically make something happen that the American political climate isn't ready for.

I want Canadian healthcare. But Gibbs wasn't talking about me. I'm reasonable enough to understand the political realities in the year 2010.

[uncle ray]

108. how many times does it need to be drilled into your head?

if you are offended, you are not part of his base.

or you are trying to be offended.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

109. Okay so everyone that took his comment personally

is not part of his base, go check the greatest page and start telling the rest of us that we arent part of his base either.

I am really amazed at the abject stupidity of my own political party this morning.

I am not convinced you want to win elections for Democrats judging by your statement,.

[closeupready]

73. Logic obviously is not one of your strengths, is it?

I mean, if your post is a good indicator. :rofl:

[phleshdef]

90. Right because logic has shit all to do with the exchange you are responding to.

Some of you DUers just like the way your own words look on the screen, you don't care if its relevant to the discussion.

[closeupready]

102. Physician, heal thyself.

n/t

[LostinVA]

83. I see "psycho babble" is the new meme against the so-caleld "Far Left"

:eyes:

[closeupready]

105. Right, 'psychobabble' and 'are you on drugs'.

n/t

[Steely_Dan]

79. Nice Rant!......n/t

[EFerrari]

62. There goes another Irony Meter. n/t

[phleshdef]

67. Right because I actually care about recs and what keyboard warriors generally think.

Oooh, I just marginalized you to being nothing more than a keyboard warrior. Quick! Give me a self righteous bullshit speech now on how you refuse to be marginalized!

[EFerrari]

86. No, because you're a such cute little illustration of the poster's point.

[phleshdef]

91. I suppose you are out of self righteous rants then. Strangers things have happened.

[NJmaverick]

106. The actual posters are about 50/50. It's only ghost recs that create

the mis-perception you have.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

37. You're correct. However faux outrage is so much fun that this point will be ignored

[EFerrari]

41. No, grantcart is not correct, he's conveniently reductive.

He conflates criticism of policy with criticism of Obama in the same way Gibbs does with the aim to shut down dissent. Didn't work for Gibbs, won't work for grantcart.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

47. LOL! you think ghost recs make you right?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

49. The logical and intellectually correct arguments support Gibbs and rightfully blasts

the "professional left" and that's all that really matters. I could care little about those that treat DU like a video game clicking on the rec or unrec button.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

50. No I am convinced that is all you care about NJmaverick

You care about winning and internet argument over the direction of our country, it is so prevalent on DU now it is becoming disgusting to me. None of you want to challenge our President to be the best President he can be, you want to go along to get a long.

When we dont challenge our President he has no reason to want to do better, I think the apologists defending our President and our adminstrations' behavior is bad for our country and doesn't do the very thing that President Obama told the Net-Roots nation last week to do, he wants us to challenge him, he said it himself. Go here if you missed the speech

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/7/24/887141/-President-Obama-speaks-to-Netroots-Nation


So in reality by defending the indefensible you are not doing what Obama wants us to do. I choose to challenge our President to make him a better leader, you dont.

[NJmaverick]

52. I have found your perceptions are more often in error, so I am not too concerned

What I am concerned about is that the so called professional left does not do too much damage to the Democrats with their over the top, unfair and destructive criticism. The last thing I want to see is the GOP return to power.

I would also suggest you take care not to assume others share your motivations.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

54. My motivation is I want my President to be the best President he can be

Your motivation is that you want your President to get reelected so don't rock the boat. That is essentially the difference between the very large majority of us on DU and a handful of you people. That is it, really.

[NJmaverick]

55. So you think you are entitled to state your own motivations but others

are not given that same privilege. Tell me how did you develop that class system and how does one obtain the status to declare the motives of others?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

58. Because I fucking live on DU

I see the same handful of people every day, including you, doing your best to defend horrible policy, excuse the watering down of good bills, and I see triangluation by this administration, who arent even that good at it.

I would love to hear your motivation for being a mouth piece for this administration, I can safely say that I have never seen you ever disagree with this administration on any issue, not one.

We used to make fun of the Bushies for defending him on all kinds of ridiculous shit, now look at you.

How do you feel about the President being able to assassinate American citizens?

How do you feel about indefinate detention?

How do you feel about the Public Option?

How do you feel about Dont Ask Dont Tell and DOMA?

These are all important issues and you think the President is doing an fantastic job.

I can safely say that I have come to the conclusion that I have about as much in common politically with the BOG as I do some fuckstick from FR.

[NJmaverick]

61. I live in the real world

I can see why we have very differing views


The real world is rarely perfect.


The real world often means compromise rather than complete victories


The real world has good and bad and one needs to learn to keep them in perspective


The real world progress is often incremental rather than drastic


The real world massive list of things that need to be addressed takes more than a year or two to complete

The real world is often not pretty or perfect but if one is able to keep a good perspective one can see things are getting much better

[JonLP24]

64. I knew you would

hide away from that. You pretty much pretended that poster didn't ask those questions.

[NJmaverick]

66. Glad you follow my writings so closely. Please I have updated my post

and have addressed the imbalance of perception the questions indicated.

[JonLP24]

68. None of those explain

why indefinite detention is a good or bad thing.

As far as following what you say closely... I was here first. Look up-thread.

[NJmaverick]

75. can`t see the forest for the trees

[JonLP24]

87. Whatever

You won't answer and I know you don't care that this administration can kidnap people, lock them away, and prevent them from challenging why they are locked up.

[NJmaverick]

88. You got an answer that you didn't like

that doesn't mean it wasn't answered. Your answer was that you are overly focused on details to the point that you are failing to see the big picture.

[JonLP24]

92. Your answer didn't say

Holding detainees without habeas corpus is a good or bad thing.

There is no big picture. This is the issue that he has control over. He campaigned for allowing detainees access to habaes corpus.

This man can do no wrong in your eyes.

[NJmaverick]

93. So let me ask you this. Do you want to let people go who swear to kill Americans

as soon as they are released? Are you willing to toss away the lives of innocent men, women and children? See issues are not nearly as black and white as you think they are.

[JonLP24]

96. Oh yes

I heard this exact same argument from Bush and his supporters on granting legal rights to GITMO detainees. See I hated Bush for a reason. These were one of those reasons.

Now to answer your strawmen. Yes if you don't have any evidence on them. If you have evidence to hold them keep them. If you don't, let them go. That is my position.

[NJmaverick]

99. Ironically you didn't answer the question. There are detainees that

fit the description I gave so you are being disingenuous with your strawman charges

[JonLP24]

103. I said if you got evidence

you can keep them. If you don't, release them. In this country we'll let the most violent offenders go if we don't have any evidence against them.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

115. Congratulations for the Bush talking points

This sounds like a Liz Cheney quote.

[NJmaverick]

119. That was certainly a way to hide honest debate

I would suggest your tactics more closely fit your accusation.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

123. You dodged the issue by smearing your opponent

I have seen that tactic before.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

124. At least you are aware of who my "opponent" is n/t

[NJmaverick]

125. Yes your opponent is Democrats who support the President and the party

mine is the Republicans, conservatives and tea baggers. A clear contrast between us

[spiritual_gunfighter]

128. Nope

My opponents are the people who want our president to fail, which includes Republicans, Tea Baggers, assholes, racists and those who refuse to hold our President accountable in order to make him a better leader.

Those are my opponents.

[NJmaverick]

130. The problem are many people that mistakenly believe they are just

"holding the president's feet to the fire" when in fact they have shoved those feet so far into the fire and held them there so long, that there is nothing left but charred bones. All calls to pull the feet back were ignored and dismissed as "people who refuse to hold our President accountable".

[spiritual_gunfighter]

132. I think many on DU think that Obama is some wilting flower

who cant take any kind of criticism from his own party, he is a strong guy he can take it and he told the Net-Roots Nation last week that he wanted us to hold him accountable. I am just doing what the President wants me to do, to hold him accountable to make him a better President. You dont want to do that.

[NJmaverick]

133. More like many remember how the impressive presidency of Bill Clinton was unfairly tarnished

by excessive and unfair criticism. They also remember how that tarnish made it easier for George Bush to steal the 2000 election

[spiritual_gunfighter]

69. Bullshit maverick

You are actually on DU more than I am, I am sure of that. You refuse to live in the real world cause if you did, you would have had a different reaction to the Gibbs story, instead of laughing and agreeing with him, you would have asked yourself, "Why is Robert Gibbs talking shit about the people that vote for Obama, do they want to win elections"? That would have been your first reaction, I am sure more than 90% of DU when they read his statement had that reaction, you didnt.

You thought it was awesome, because it was one point for the BOG against the anti-Obama racist who want ponies. Yeah if you dont see what Gibbs said as a problem, then I think you may be the problem and are more concerned about scoring internet points than winning elections for Dems, cause what Gibbs did aint gonna do it.

[NJmaverick]

74. I have real world political experience and real world management

As a result, I am in a position to be able to better put things in perspective. I also have been following politics for decades and love to study history. This allows for a better appreciation of what happens when a party divides against itself and loses focus on the real enemy. You can continue to live in your DU world of "ponies' and "BOG" and "recs" and "greatest page" though.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

85. What Gibbs would like is that the 10% of liberals that don't approve of the Presdent

would be more reasonable, balanced and measured in their criticisms. It would be much better if the criticism was constructive rather than destructive

[closeupready]

82. Completely agree with every word.

n/t

[jotsy]

134. When it comes to good and bad, it isn't about perspective, it's about standards.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGTr6mJRvDw>

To the OP
Who are you that you can speak to how the entirety of DU characterizes anything? I don't recall you asking me how I felt about what's been said, and willing to bet there are a great many others you didn't obtain an opinion from before speaking on their behalf. Next time you say such a thing, I'd like you to post a disclaimer to that effect, please.

[POAS]

144. You LIVE on DU?

How sad. Maybe it is time to step away from the keyboard for a bit.

[uncle ray]

117. you want the best liberal president he can be.

the thing is, we helped elect a moderate.

[olegramps]

72. In other words, just shut up and row?

[NJmaverick]

76. If the boat is sinking and everyone else is rowing to shore

what purpose does complaining that your seat is we serve?

[olegramps]

136. There is an old Jewish adage that goes like this:

There was a man on a boat the began drilling a hole under his seat and when confronted by his fellow passengers he responded that it was his seat and he had every right to do what he was doing. The rabbi said yes, but the hole you drill will result in all of us drowning.

Gibbs has a right to say what ever he wants as long as it only affects him, but as the official spokesman for the White House he has a responsibility to every Democrat to not drown us.

[LostinVA]

84. I have been very surprised by that

And pleasantly so.

[NJmaverick]

46. I think you should read this Daily Kos article

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/10/891907/-Being-wrong-while-being-right

[olegramps]

95. I don't see it that way.

A very, very insignificant faction of Democrats may actually believe that Obama is another Bush, but the vast majority of the party thinks that is ridiculous. Gibbs clumsy attempt to deflect criticism of the lack of leadership by Obama on a number of key issues by casting anyone who is critical as being a far wing dope addict that are calling for the closure of the Pentagon was a huge blunder. It sounded like something that I would expect would have been broadcast over at FOX. However, I absolutely think that he has failed us on a number of issues especially health care and financial reform. He caved in to both the health insurance companies and Wall Street. Two institutions that are directly responsible for having brought on the present crisis. Now I fear that he is on the brink of caving in to the wealthy and will not push tax increases on the ultra-wealthy.

[NJmaverick]

100. It may be a small percentage that believes Bush=Obama

but it's a very vocal and active group that dominates the internet and places like Firedoglake and Huffington Post

[EFerrari]

129. I've been reading it here, over and over in snippets. Spin. n/t

[bullwinkle428]

40. In other words, Gibbs did EXACTLY what Fox News is doing with

those "New Black Panther Party" clowns - take the actions and words of a couple of mentally unstable people, and blow it up into something huge and threatening!

GOT IT!!

If I'm wrong, then the onus is on Gibbs to explain himself further.

[izzybeans]

45. I long ago discovered that a lot of people on the intertubes think

people on the TV are talking about them specifically.

And pretending that Bush and Obama are the same is both against the rules and crazy. However, it is important that we compare them. There is a lot to like about Obama (e.g. the long lists that periodically come out about how much he has gotten passed through a stonewalled congress) and some things worthy of a lot of heated debate (e.g. wars, DADT, DOMA, stimulus, Patriot Act, etc.).

We need to be putting the heat on Congress much more than we are. Quit pretending Obama is some sort of omniscient being that can make that dysfunction go away and keep up the criticisms of his stated policies where needed. The people that believe in democracy with a small d, understand those things. This progressive believes in the process no matter how messy it becomes and how long it takes to get what I want, which is a simple thing: an equal shot for each of us to live with happiness and dignity.

[joeybee12]

51. You know, there's no point in replying to junk posts like this...just unrec

and move on...you're never gonna listen to anyone anyway.

[NJmaverick]

59. So you won't listen to what the poster had to say and will not even discuss the topic

but the OP is the one who would "never gonna listen"?:shrug:

[DainBramaged]

57. Excuse me?

You really swallowed the kool Aid didn't you?

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

Know who said that without using the Google?

[LostinVA]

81. I do

[DainBramaged]

114. Big hugs

:hi: :hug:

[treestar]

98. Exactly

I can hardly believe the whining threads here getting 300 recs and you have none.

I agree with what Gibbs said 100%. No such person could be part of "the base."

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OmahaBlueDog]

104. That may have been what Gibbs intended, but that's not how it came off.

Anyone with the title of Press Secretary should have known better.

[Scurrilous]

121. K & R

Checked the front page of the 2 newspapers delivered to my home (NYTimes & Miami Herald).

Not a word about Gibbs.

Next!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

122. He insulted me.

Let me tell you a little about myself.

In the lead up to the 2004 election I spend months researching and cataloging the bad Bush policies and actions in an attempt to open voters eyes as to just who this man was and why he was bad for our country. It started as the Bush Wall of Shame that was displayed at protests, then became a website (DoYouKnow.org) and finally ended up in Michael Moore's book "Stupid White Men".

Because of this effort I had extensive knowledge of all the bad being done by Bush.

Within just a few months of Obama's inauguration I began to see news stories that made my eyebrows raise. After the first year it was clear that he was adopting and even expanding many of the same bad policies -- especially in regard to civil liberties/justice -- and backtracking on campaign promises he had made in those areas.

I was not raised to be a hypocrite.

On too many issues he has become just as bad as George W. Bush -- actually, in my book, worse than Bush because he is a Democrat doing these things.

You can spend the next years with your blinders on and fingers in your ears when it comes to Obama, but I will always speak out and expose the bad and the wrong, whether it comes from a "R" or a "D".

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

137. Those are my issues. Thank you for being so eloquent

I suffer from chronic cognitive dissonance because the same policies I reviled under Bush are excused under Obama. I too am not a hypocrite. No one less than John Yoo himself wrote that President Obama was continuing and preserving the powers of the "unitary executive". All of the people with the blinders on don't realize that these powers are also preserved for the next power crazed war mongering President from ANY party because they were not dismantled under President Obama.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

139. It is the thing that make me most crazy.

To watch so many DUers -- some of the brightest, most on-top-of-the-issues crew to ever hit the Net -- completely lose their shit and turn into the "D" version of dittoheads just kills me. :headbang:

I am thankful that many are waking up and working to push O in the correction direction. Will it all be enough? Based on Gibbs' statement yesterday I suspect not. :(

All we can do is keep exsposing the Truth and working to elect those who are truly on our side.

[cliffordu]

126. K&R in spite of the unreccers......

the infantile sniveling around here astounds.

[Scurrilous]

135. Indeed. n/t

[Joe Fields]

138. You, sir, are IMO tone deaf.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

142. I'd like to gently point out to the OP and others pushing this same talking point

that neither Gibbs himself or the White House or anyone else for that matter has offered this up as an excuse/explanation - "Oh we were just talking about the tiny little itsy group of people who think Obama=Bush, there's about 12 of them on the internet and they really fry us, so if you're not one of those 12, don't worry about it, just go on being your wonderful, whacky looney lefty selves."

So you should just give it up, because your own credibilty is taking a big hit. You can do a lot better than this. Why not join the real discussion - who did he really mean and what was the point or the motivation in stirring up a hornets nest when all the hornets were sleeping peacefully in in their nest before he came along with his stick?

[WillyT]

145. Wow GC... Talk About Towing The Company Line...

Overheard a Supervisor at work say (seriously), "There is no "I" in Team."

Overheard right after, under her (a co-worker's) breath, "Yeah... But there is one in "Bite Me".

Just sayin...

:shrug:

[asdjrocky]

146. It looks like most of DU would disagree. nt

[eridani]

147. Bullshit. Wanting Canadian health care sure the hell does not equate Bush with Obama

That Obama has some of the same policy positions as Bush is a commonplace truth, and no way in hell is the same as saying that both are exactly the same.

Attacking pundits who denounce right wing policy is exactly the same as attacking their audiences, however. How do they make a living if they have no audiences?