Gibbs' defenders' favorite strawman

[30rock]

Here's an analogy:

If I say the Florida Marlins are as good or better than the Yankees at defense, I am not necessarily saying the Florida Marlins are as good as the Yankees as a team I am simply citing aspects of baseball in which these two teams are comparable. The Yankees may be better (overall) if they have better pitching, hitting, coaching, etc.

Which brings me to the "Obama=Bush" debate. No progressive in cable and no major liberal blogger has equated Obama to Bush with a broad brush. When the ACLU compared Obama to Bush they were not talking about Global Warming or the economy. They were talking about civil liberties, in which Obama has been at a minimum as bad as Bush, plus the assassinations without trial as a bonus.

When the Electronic Frontier Foundation compares Obama to Bush, they do so within the context of warrantless wiretapping, etc.

I think Obama is clearly better than Bush at the economy, as the latter thought tax cuts for the rich were good policy, while the former focuses much more on the unemployed and middle-class. But that doesn't erase Obama's disastrous denial of civil liberties of many innocent detainees. Obama was against Binyan Mohammed suing those who tortured him by slashing his penis and pouring hot liquid into it. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/aug/02/terrorism.humanrights1. That's not good.

Do you think that because Blackwater is now called "Xe" Obama deserves praise for continuing to give them huge contracts?

But Gibbs' and his defenders are pretending that progressives are conducting some sort of mega-study comparing both President. Gibbs' is good at strawmen, having insinuated that the "professional left" (whoever they are) wants the Pentagon "eliminated."

[xchrom]

1. Recommend

[qb]

2. Good analogy. K&R

[bigtree]

3. we've had quite a few folks here equating this President to Bush

. . . that's the nerve I think Gibbs hit with his comments. His insult (drug testing) was below the belt, but his defense of the administration efforts was a standard, understandable sentiment from the embattled administration's rep.

[BlueCheese]

14. Really, who?

Comparing on specific policies, perhaps. But I don't think any serious person here thinks Obama is generally as bad as Bush, or "equal" to Bush, whatever that means.

[dmallind]

17. Here's the link showing dozens do...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8864596

[BlueCheese]

20. Eh.

That poll was clearly defined with a goal in mind, and the limited choices are kind of muddled.

I don't even know what people mean when referring to "Obama is like Bush". If someone thinks that Bush and Obama's foreign policies are the same, but that they're different on the environment and taxes, does that person think Obama is like Bush? What if foreign policy is the most important thing to that person? All this parsing seems kind of pointless.

The bottom line is that I doubt anyone calling himself or herself a liberal would prefer that Bush were president instead of Obama.

[dmallind]

35. Nope - it was very clear that the poll was looking for overall opinion

Spelled out, bolded and everything. And how you can spin 36% saying Obama is more dangerous than Bush because he sells Bush's ideology with progressive rhetoric as doubting anybody thinks they are as bad as each other I have no idea. There is no possibility of not understanding that option.

[jgraz]

39. You fail at parsing English

Not one of those choices and not one respondent said the two are the same.

[rucky]

19. A few folks. Not proportionate to the amount of attention this is getting.

Not even close.

It's a textbook case of how people on both sides of the issue can shut down a reasonable discussion, and we take the bait every time. If we ignore the firebugs instead of letting them get under our skin, this place would be way more peaceful and productive.

[EFerrari]

25. No. His public use of right wing memes and tactics was what really upset people.

Someone who really believes Obama=Bush is not going to be upset by that.

People who try to be fair likely will be. We've all had our words twisted up and totalized by hacks on Fox at some point.

[eridani]

31. Nonsense. I have yet to see a comparison that was not about a specific policy

And that was the point the OP was making.

[maxsolomon]

4. the only ones i've seen broad-brushing Obama = Bush

are the LaRouchies. also Obama = Hitler.

they're no professional, or left. they're nutz.

[blueworld]

5. Thanks for trying to put perspective on this stuff

I think Gibb's statement was stupid because it was an oversimplification, as you point out. One of the best summaries I've read today was from Chris Weigant:

"With Friends Like These"

"White House press secretary Robert Gibbs recently expressed his frustration with what he called the professional left," in no uncertain terms. Which, ironically, means the White House and the "professional left" have now achieved parity in that both sides express withering contempt for the other. The irony lies in the fact that both are probably thinking the exact same thing about each other: 'With friends like these, who needs enemies?'"

<snip>
"It's really not all that hard to understand. Obama could turn this around, if he chose to. Give a few interviews to Rachel and Keith. Give a few primetime press conferences, and make your own case why you deserve credit for your accomplishments. Toss the Left a bone every so often by actually fighting hard for one of their pet legislative ideas in Congress -- even if you lose. And for the love of all that's holy, stop trashing the people who make up your base."

http://www.chrisweigant.com/

[mcollins]

6. K&R nt

[dmallind]

7. So you missed the DU polls that showed about 30% who thought

he was as bad as or worse, with no specific policies cited on the options?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

8. Do you think Gibbs was talking about the most extreme 30% of DU?

If so he should be fired for wasting time.

The left-most 30% of DU has no influence and if the WH is reading DU and getting hurt feelings the WH needs to grow the F' up

[dmallind]

9. I think he was talking about those who think like them yes

Obviously not all the fringe are on DU. Some have reasonable mouthpieces even.

BTW I just checked and was wrong. 48% of those who decided they wanted to answer think Bush and Obama have the same ideology - overall. Of those 36% (so 75% of the 48%) thought he was in fact more dangerous because he was selling Bush's ideology (not one policy or one aspect of ideology even, but Bush's ideology with no qualifiers) with progressive rhetoric.

So the idea that "nobody ever said Bush and Obama were the same overall" is completely false on DU at least, and by extension among those who believe similarly. In fact - 3/4 of these ideological malcontents think he is a worse proposition.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8864596

[Greyhound]

10. The tortuous convolutions of 'logic' as the authoritarians try to excuse this idiocy

are just cracking me up.
:rofl:

The man's an asshole who is a republuhkun at heart, and always has been. The fact that he (and so many others that have actively deconstructed the democraqtic Party to make it into the Neo-Republik Party) has any place in the White House is proof of Obama's true sympathies and intentions.

[EFerrari]

11. What cracks me up is when these threads are swarmed

by people ridiculing the left in order to show that the left is not being ridiculed. I love that. :)

[Greyhound]

12. I think that an inability to detect/recognize irony is required to join that club.

Oh, and imagination.
:rofl:

[dmallind]

16. Not at all - the idiots who think Obama is equal to Bush are being ridiculed

And I for one not only do not pretend this is not the case, I am happy that it is the case and cheerful to join in the ridicule, because they deserve it. If you think "the left" is synonymous with these people that's your problem becauseto me they are instead synonymous with "a tiny fringe of the far far left who are so far away froma nything approaching mainstream Democrats that they can't spot the difference between one of those and a far right Republican".

[EFerrari]

22. Right on time!

:rofl:

[dmallind]

36. Right? Yes. On time? Dunno.

So you think he's like Bush or are you just trying to be offended for some reason?

[LostinVA]

24. hahahahahaha -- bingo!

[tomp]

37. proud to be far, far away from Dem Party mainstream.

and watch who you're calling an idiot, idiot.

and to turn the tables: your ilk can't spot the similarities between one of those and a far right Republican.

[gkhouston]

23. It was funny for a while and then I realized that maybe I'd been overzealous when

I did the spring-cleaning on my ignore file.

[glitch]

29. I used to delete my ignore list every new year. I stopped about 6 years ago

when I realized all the same people kept appearing on it.

[mmonk]

13. I call presidential spokes persons

presidential spokes liars. I make no distinction of them according to party. Their purpose is spin, an activist's purpose is exposing truth. The two are inherently at odds.

[tomp]

38. exactly correct. nt

[Ignis]

15. K&R. I applaud your efforts.

Let's hope they're not wasted. :toast:

[rucky]

18. These are the types of discussions we need to be having.

Too bad they get shut down at every turn (and it's no accident).

[ProSense]

21. "in which Obama has been at a minimum as bad as Bush"

No he hasn't. No amount of spin can declare that the ACLU has said that President Obama is "as bad as Bush."

"No progressive in cable and no major liberal blogger has equated Obama to Bush with a broad brush."

So no one is aware of Chris Hedges?

"which is how so many people who should have known better voted for Obama"

"Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow are as bad as the right wing; they are all playing the same wing, nobody is addressing the institutional methods that are strangling us."

You can also do a google search and find this piece by Hedges: "Ralph Nader Was Right About Barack Obama"

I don't think Hedges is President Obama's base. People who distort the administration's record in attempt to portray Obama as equal to or worse than Bush are not the President's base.

[30rock]

27. ACLU chief: " If there has been change in the civil liberties context, I frankly don't see it."

Checkmate.

In the words of Anthony Romero.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0610/ACLU_chief_disgusted_with_Obama.html

He's also "disgusted" by Obama. Are you?

[ProSense]

30. "Checkmate"?

Really?

[30rock]

32. Yes, checkmate. Do you agree with Romero?

I agree with everything said in the July report (in which no conclusion was reached as to whether Obama or Bush were better in general terms). Are you disgusted, too? Note how you don't want to criticize Romero because you want create the impression that your opinion and the opinion of the ACLU are similar.

[yowzayowzayowza]

26. But a broad brush can be fashioned out of many strokes of...

"Obama=Bush". Seen it painted rite here on DU, over and over and over and over, usually culminating in Obama izza fascist/corporatist/neothiserthatfuckingbullshit. Quite pleased we're serving pizzas to that sorta stuff these days.

[amborin]

28. knr

[Individualist]

33. K&R

[Enthusiast]

34. Highly recommended. nt