The Slow, Whining Death of British Christianity

[NeedleCast]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-slow-whining-death-of_b_676613.html?utm_source=DailyBrief&utm_campaign=081010&utm_medium=email&utm_content=BlogEntry

Makes me want to move to England...I just couldn't handle the winters. Or the food. =P

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Looks like Europe is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of us in many areas...

[MellowDem]

5. Except prayer in schools...

or state religions, or state administered religious discrimination (burqas and minarets anyone?) I'd say in many ways, Europe is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay backward. I've visted the place.

[NeedleCast]

6. It seems an interesting disconnect to me

THere are lots of laws in effect and being passed in Europe that seem far worse than what goes on in the US, but at the same time, Europe as a whole, and especially the UK, seem to be a far more secular society.

[krabigirl]

24. I agree...there's good and bad everywhere you go anyway.

And yes, the fear of Islam seems to be everywhere there, as well as here. Its so sad.

[snagglepuss]

19. Actually it is not like it appears. Blair gave private faith schools enormous

leeway to set up their own curriculum which Dawkins recently investigated for Channel 4 documentary. In one Muslim school he investigated none of the pupils believed in evolution. He said: "Their first recourse was not 'What's the evidence?' but 'What does the Koran say?'"

From Ch 4 Website

The number of faith schools in Britain is rising. Around 7,000 publicly-funded schools - one in three - now has a religious affiliation. As the coalition government paves the way for more faith-based education by promoting 'free schools', the renowned atheist and evolutionary biologist Professor Richard Dawkins says enough is enough.

In this passionately argued film, Dawkins calls on us to reconsider the consequences of faith education, which, he argues, bamboozles parents and indoctrinates and divides children.


British Humanist Website wrote:

In the United Kingdom, faith schools are supported by the government and paid for largely with tax money. Faith schools provide a religious as well as a secular education. Most of the faith schools are Church of England based, but there are also Roman Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Greek Orthodox, Hindu, and Seventh Day Adventist schools. Some faith schools require proof that a child belongs to a particular faith and evidence of regular religious service attendance.

Read more at Suite101: Religious Labeling of Children, UK Faith Schools: British Humanist Association Attacks State-Funded Religion Education http://religion-in-schools.suite101.com/article.cfm/religious_labeling_of_children_uk_faith_schools#ixzz0wQKIvMi7

[earth mom]

2. Thanks for posting this!

I'd love to move to the UK-this is another reason to add to my list. B-)

[MellowDem]

3. Really?

Despite being much more secular population-wise, their government is much more about the combo of religion and politics than ours is. Prayer in schools? A state religion? No thank you. I'd argue that their state religion is part of the reason they have become secular faster.

[NeedleCast]

7. I agree, it's an odd disconnect

I'll note too, for the record, that the Subject Line of my OP is simply the title of the article, not my perosonal oppinion.

Still, while the UK and much of Europe has some laws that tie church and state together in a manner that hasn't been done in the US, the population in general seems to be rejecting religion. I question how much longer those laws can survive.

[MellowDem]

11. Not too long I'd say...

just imagine if there was an American state church. All of the apathy and cynicism that is viewed towards politics would also be viewed towards religion as well. That is my theory at least in some of the differences in secularization in Europe and America.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Yep - if American Christians want a more Christian America the

LAST thing they should do is eliminate the separation of church and state.

[krabigirl]

23. Exactly..religion is more cultural in many of these countries, or just seen as old fashioned.

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. A history of religious freedom is the reason why religion has flourished in the US

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. True, if you look at the countries that HAVE state religions,

their populations are more secularized than those that don't.

Maybe it's similar to the heavy anti-smoking education in schools starting about thirty years ago producing a generation that smokes MORE than boomers do.

[Bluebear]

4. Great piece, thanks for bringing it!

[Arugula Latte]

8. This makes me want to weep because of the contrast

with the rampant, widespread, cancerous religious nuttery in this country.

[LWolf]

9. I wonder what the stats for the U.S. would be. nt

[Lance_Boyle]

12. I've got to see if I can dig those up again.

Someone posted the US stats on "religiosity" here maybe a year ago, and it was actually good news (not THE good news, but real-life good news for us non-fairy-tale types). Of course, it varies widely by geographic region, but the trend was decidedly towards less religiosity among younger people. Hope it sticks.

[NeedleCast]

14. THis is a pretty good breakdown of religiosity in general in the US

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

These two items stand out:

1. The survey finds that the number of people who say they are unaffiliated with any particular faith today (16.1%) is more than double the number who say they were not affiliated with any particular religion as children. Among Americans ages 18-29, one-in-four say they are not currently affiliated with any particular religion.

2. While those Americans who are unaffiliated with any particular religion have seen the greatest growth in numbers as a result of changes in affiliation, Catholicism has experienced the greatest net losses as a result of affiliation changes

[LWolf]

15. Those are good trends.

81.8% affiliated with a particular faith.

We've got a long, long way to go.

Not that I think people shouldn't be spiritual in some way. I'd like to see us secular enough to get religion out of politics and our public institutions, though.

[NeedleCast]

17. Yeah, it's a step in the right direction

The trend in the US is moving towards secularism and that trend is moving faster with the younger generation(s).

The biggest problem I have with religion in the US is that it has been corrupted by politics. Which is to say that most American conservative Christians I know share very little in common with Christains from the bible. Intead, they have turned the bible into a stump for their political beliefs.

[Warpy]

10. Or the summers or the accommodations

unless I had the millions necessary to purchase and convert a London loft to my specifications. The food wouldn't be a problem, I know how to cook.

However, the year round damp would play hell with my arthritis.

It would be lovely to escape the religious fanaticism that has so spoiled our country for far too long.

Damn them for dumping the Puritans here.

[enlightenment]

16. The food is no worse than it is here, Warpy. That is an old mythology.

The weather isn't bad, either - and it's not damp year-round. London is muggy as hell in July, I'll grant you . . .

The mistake the founders made was in not establishing a state religion - there's nothing like a status quo to make most people stop paying attention. Our 'freedom' of religion means that all the voices can (and do) constantly clamor for equal time and authority; the concept never has a chance to die off.

[Warpy]

20. Most of us have been exposed to English cooking

via "Two Fat Ladies" on PBS (now late night fare on the Cooking Channel) or through transplanted friends who decided to treat us to good English fare, a contradiction in terms, or the bastardized Indian stuff they seem to love over there. You'll have to forgive us if we occasionally forget that Jamie Oliver is also one of their cooks. He'd have as steep an uphill battle in his country of origin as he does here, though.

BTW, I was raised by an unenthusiastic Irish cook, so it's not just the English with an often deservedly bad culinary reputation. Fortunately, my cooking genes came from the Alsatian side of the family.

As for the other point, I disagree about the state religion. Can you imagine Reagan with that kind of power? Stupid? Having dumped the Puritans here, you can't possibly believe than any state religion in this country could be either reasonable or humane and I certainly would never want to risk that sort of human misery on making a theoretical point.

What dissuaded Europe from all the happy, peppy god talk wasn't state religion, it was having 2 world wars with a Depression between them at home. They know the Sunday school sky fairy won't swoop down and save them from themselves. The experience of the last century proved that beyond a doubt. If they acknowledge a supreme being, it's a highly impersonal, disengaged one these days.

[enlightenment]

22. Two Fat Ladies! I haven't thought of that show in a while. :)

They certainly could take something from the sublime to the ridiculous in a half an hour, couldn't they?

I'm not a huge fan of Jamie Oliver - there are better English chefs - but I'll give him credit for trying to introduce the concept of 'fresh' to the masses (both in the UK and here). British food is on average no better and no worse than American food. It is different. Bastardized Indian food exists here, too . . . all that is good or bad about food is equally evident in both nations.

The English didn't 'dump' the Puritans here and you know it! - that's an over-simplification of the situation. As for a state religion - if we had one from the outset (1789) we wouldn't have 21st century Puritanism (they probably would have chosen Anglicanism, for one thing, since that's what most of them were most familiar with (whether they practiced it or not). Whether we would - in the 220-odd years since - have reached the level of general ennui that I've seen in most of my European friends is something that can only be speculated upon, not proved or disproved in any way. Maybe - maybe not (but it certainly would have made things different).

I don't disagree with your assessment of the European mindset, vis-à-vis their reaction to the events of the 20th century. I suppose, though - and this is only my perspective - that I see the difference not so much as an historical one (reaction to the war, etc) as a feature of human nature.

It is much easier to reject what we are told we are supposed to do than to if we are not told what to do. Like when you tell a kid - 'Eat your peas!'

"But I HATE peas *pout* - I won't eat them!! "
"Eat them - or you'll sit there until you do. I don't care it you sit there all night long."
"But I HATE peas *sniffle* - I hate you ! . . . *eats peas* "

Yeah, you made them eat their peas - but they hated it. And you. And, possibly, peas for the rest of their lives.

Compare that with giving them a choice:
"I have veggies to go with your chicken! You don't have to eat them, but I'd be really happy if you tried one . . . Okay? Do you want Brussels Sprouts? No? Cauliflower? No? How about peas? Yes? Here are the peas - they're good, aren't they?"

Some percentage of children will turn down all the veg, but most will see two things: that they are being given options and that they are not being forced to accept any of them - and that makes them more willing to try at least one. Religion, imo, is much the same - England established that all English people were going to 'eat their peas' come hell or high water. So, they put them on their plate and go through the motions (compulsory religious training in school) - and then shovel them into their serviette when no one is looking.
We set up a system that tells us it's our choice, but look at all the different veg floating around - dressed up with cheese sauce, no less! Try one!!

Crappy analogy - my reasoning skills are lame today - but can you kind of see what I'm trying (badly) to say? I'm not looking for agreement (I'm actually trying to avoid rewriting my syllabi . . .)
:)

[Warpy]

31. You ate your peas? Really?

Well, I rather liked peas, but the time I was five I'd learned to cache nasty bits like canned asparagus in a wad of Kleenex or toilet paper in my underpants for later burial outside. It was easier once we got a dog, they'll eat anything, the ranker the better. Milk was more problematic. If my mother didn't turn her back or leave the room, it failed to go down the sink and I had to drink it. Then we both dealt with the digestive aftermath and I've really never forgiven her for it.

I dealt with religion much the same way, hiding my disbelief behind a facade of going through the motions until I rebelled full force when I was ten and got sprung from Catholic school.

As for your religious point, the reason Americans still mawkishly cling to that meddlesome Sunday School god who is constantly interfering with their lives (always in a positive way, they have a devil to blame the bad stuff on) is because we largely escaped the horrors of the last century on our soil. As long as good things continue to happen in their lives and they're not visited with a cascade of sheer horror, they can continue to believe.

[enlightenment]

39. I love peas.

Just don't get me started on broccoli (or it's anemic cousin, cauliflower) . . . or boiled okra. yerg.

When I was growing up, you could always tell when my parents were having a spat (they never said anything in front of us). My mom (who was born and raised in Mississippi) would serve boiled okra. A HUGE dish of the slimy stuff. She'd put it down right in front of my dad (who was born and raised in Colorado and California and didn't know what okra was until he married my mom). He would turn a shade remarkably similar to the putrid green of the offending veg. The measure of how provoked they were with each other could be gauged by whether or not he would eat it. If they were REALLY pissed off, he'd tuck into it even though he had to gag down each bite. If it was a more minor spat, he'd push it away - code for 'you win'.

I once got into a heap of trouble for playing with my food - peas and mashed potatoes were the culprits. The peas were my little minions, dutifully holding up the sides of my mashed potato reservoir . . . until my fork slipped and the gravy lake sped down the slope, washing my little peas directly into the path of the roast beef. It just wouldn't DO. I cried out - 'dam it! dam it!' to my pea minions as I desperately tried to stem the on-rushing gravy . . . and then I heard the crash as my father leapt up, knocking his chair backward, moving 'round the table to address my foul language (he didn't use vulgarity). I knew I was in trouble and couldn't figure out why, since I hadn't DONE anything - but I couldn't save myself because my pea minions were DROWNING!

Moments before he reached me, my mother came to the rescue - "her potato dam broke, Richard".

If I had been going to get religion, it would have been at that moment. But I recognized that my savior was my mother. :)

[Fumesucker]

27. And the US isn't in love with "bastardized" Mexican food? n/t

[Warpy]

29. The fare in most "Mexican" restaurants is pretty awful

and heavy as lead, while a lot of the authentic stuff is light as a feather.

Yes, I know the difference.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

42. Our New Mexican food (especially southern NM)

similar to food in northern Mexico (some differences)which is pretty heavy but I agree with you that the food in the core of Mexico tends to be much lighter fare often something like a couple of corn tortillas with chicken, lime,and chile with a mango on the side.

[Warpy]

44. Right, New Mexican cuisine is wonderful

but there's no way I could eat it more than twice a year, I'd be the size of a house.

[skepticscott]

37. And Chinese food

Probably at least 90% of both in this country are pure dreck...a shame, too..

[Warpy]

40. Some good stuff is at the back and bottom of the menu

but the stuff they eat is off the menu.

I used to go to a place in Boston where an elderly waiter would just bring me what he thought was best and then sit and talk to me in broken English about his grandchildren. It was never on the menu and I imagine it was the family meal for the staff. I just lucked out that the guy liked me (and probably owned the place). The stuff was unidentifiable and absolutely delicious.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. Having spent a summer in China, I'm very fussy about where I'll eat Chinese food

Any place that has a steamtable full of "unidentified fried objects" is out.

I'm similarly fussy about Japanese food, of course. Much of the so-called "Japanese food" served here in Minneapolis is stuff I've never seen in Japan.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. I was pleasantly surprised at English food when I went in 2006

It was indeed very bad in 1967--all greasy meat, boiled-to-death vegetables, and no condiments except salt and pepper.

But my first pub lunch in 2006 was a revelation--homemade tomato soup (obviously made with fresh tomatoes), a big chunk of whole grain bread with sweet cream butter, a selection of local cheeses, and a pint of local ale.

The only bad food I had was in the real downscale places. Otherwise, the standard of cooking was about the same as here. There's a lot more ethnic food of all kinds available, not only Indian but also Italian and Chinese and Middle Eastern. The Italian places tended to be Tuscan style, not red sauce over pasta.

Furthermore, ever since the mad cow scare, the number of vegetarians and vegans has increased. Every B&B I looked at on the Internet advertised breakfast alternatives for vegetarians and vegans. One place I stayed at gave everyone a generous serving of fresh fruit as a "starter" for breakfast.

Going over on a tour to the Three Choirs Festival at Hereford Cathedral in 2006, I dreaded the prospect of being captive to the hotel's food for a week, but it was actually decent. Not fantastic, but not by any means disgusting, like some of what we were fed in 1967.

On one of our daytime excursions, we happened to land in the town of Ludlow (Shropshire) on the day of the farmers' market. (It was pure coincidence. We didn't know they had one.) We spent our lunch break eating our way through the market, which had prepared foods (homemade soups, sausages, samosas, and pastries) as well as produce.

I think that joining the EU and lifting the restrictions on foreign travel (which existed in 1967) have given the British public a greater sophistication in culinary matters.

[KatyMan]

36. Pub food is the way to go

when the English cook English food, it's great. When they stray, it's not so great (having lived 8 years there, kind of experienced).

To the point others make about moving there...it's expensive. Extremely expensive, and your wages don't match. It would help immensely to have family support there; we struggled being on our own, and we weren't big spenders or anything.

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. The food isn't bad - it just sounds bad.

Spotted dick? Bangers & mash?

Really.

The curious thing is spotted dick is a plum pudding, while the banger of banger and mash is a sausage that looks like a spotted dick.

[Warpy]

32. Blood pudding, steak and kidney pie?

I've had unfortunate encounters with both, one polite bite taken followed by a pronouncement that it was interesting.

[Odin2005]

35. Hey, Blood pudding is delicious.

My mom makes the Scandinavian version, blodpolsa.

[Warpy]

41. You can have my share. Really.

I threw up the little taste I had. Really.

[Burma Jones]

13. If the fundies want to kill religion in the USA, they only have to make religion mandatory

That should do it.

[Nye Bevan]

25. Nick Clegg (the leader of the Liberal Democrats) stated that he was an atheist

during the election campaign. And nobody cared. Religion is pretty much viewed as your own business.

On the other hand it's kind of odd to see so many DUers praising the UK to the heavens on this issue, given that the UK has NO separation of church and state (the head of state is also the head of the church) and Government mandated school prayer.

[Fumesucker]

28. Let me know when a declared atheist runs for president in the US..

And no one cares..

[Spider Jerusalem]

33. Warmer winters generally than in the northern US!

It wasn't much below freezing and we had a few days of snow but not a lot; winter tends to be pretty mild, actually. The worst thing is the short days you get at this latitude. Also, the food is much better than its reputation.

[PassingFair]

38. Fabulous essay!

Thanks for posting!