Everyone here is succumbing to a right-wing frame

[scheming daemons]

I haven't posted anything about the "mosque" in NYC for two weeks... and with good reason.

The Right wants this relatively meaningless zoning board decision to be a major subject for this fall's election.



And every time we post about it, talk about it, call in to talk radio about... we're helping them frame the fall election.


They are trying to use their "fear" card... again... and we're helping them.




On DU during the primaries, lots of people would post "let it sink!" in relation to threads that were posted with the express purpose of dividing Democrats.



With regards to the mosque thing, we should all LET IT SINK.






But we're not smart enough to do that. We'll keep talking about whatever meaningless issues the Right wants the country to focus on, and we'll ignore the big picture.


They pulled this shit in '04 with the swiftboat crap... they tried in '06 using the "terra!" card. In '08, it was Jeremiah Wright.

In '10... they're going to use the "mosque in NYC!!! Oh noes!!11!!!!" card.



and we'll help them. Because we're stupid that way.



Even though we hold the correct position with respect to this, most of the older, white voters that turn out in disproportionately high numbers in midterm elections do not.

The GOP wants to distract these people from talking about social security, the economy, the corporate lobbyists poisoning Washington, and everything else that actually matters.... so they can divide people by playing to their base emotions with regards to "terra!"



After this post, I don't plan on mentioning the mosque situation again. We're right, they're wrong. It's been decided that the thing is getting built, the situation is over.


Let it sink.

[Fumesucker]

1. Not everyone..

I haven't made a single post about the Islamic community center.

No calls to shows, no letters to the editor, nada..

[scheming daemons]

2. way to go.... let it sink

[NoSheep]

59. same here..too obviously stupid to discuss.

[PDJane]

3. Not on my radar.

Think it's a really inane non-issue trumpeted by reich wing elephants like Limbaugh. Lots of other things to think about. By the way, it seems that Harper has picked this kind of distraction, too. Fortunately, it hasn't worked.

[babylonsister]

4. Baloney. The right wants to make this an issue, and you want

to ignore it? This is a 'win' for Dems if we'd express righteous indignation, and I do mean righteous. They want to take away a Constitutional right? I don't think so, and you shouldn't either. You want to ignore this, and let them rule the dialogue? I heard nbc and cnn spewing endlessly about this tonight: I say don't give the assholes an inch. One of the biggest deals is the media isn't supporting constitutional principles; that's just wrong, too.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_08/025208.php

snip//


The message on Friday emphasized constitutional principles, religious liberty, and the importance of Americans being treated equally. We have certain rights in this country, and those rights should be celebrated, not cast aside for political expediency.

[scheming daemons]

6. We (and the President) are correct.... but we are not a MAJORITY on this issue

It's a red herring, meant to distract.

The GOP would love it if we spent the next 2 months talking about this issue. It's a political winner for them. 60-40.


The President is right. The NYC zoning board is right. Mayor Bloomberg is right.

But 60% of the electorate, especially the subgroups that traditionally vote in the largest numbers in midterm elections, disagree with us on this.



You know what you haven't heard much of the past couple days? The GOP's obstructionism in congress. The Bush tax cuts. The GOP's intended assault on Social Security.



....just as the right-wing wants it.




Being correct doesn't mean you're being politically smart. Every time we talk about the NYC mosque... every time we keep in the news for another news cycle... we are hurt for the midterms.



Let it sink.

[babylonsister]

8. I 'get' that, but don't think we can just ignore it. Walk/chew gum? nt

[pinboy3niner]

16. It's NOT an automatic win for the Right on the mosque

While roughly 2/3 of Americans agree that it's not a good idea to build it there, 2/3 agree on the RIGHT to build it there.

I spent the day yesterday with four conservatives (working on a volunteer project). The first issue that came up was the NY mosque. We discussed the issues involved, but knowing they were small-gov't. conservatives, I saved one point for last: that if laws and ordinances are met, government has no business singling out one religious group and banning their building. All of my conservative friends agreed enthusiastically.

[pinboy3niner]

13. +1!

Being a slow typist (and running to the kitchen in the middle of my typing), I didn't see your post before I posted mine.

On civil rights issues, we can't afford to be silent, and allow the Right to have the megaphone. In this campaign season, they're going nuts attacking gays, Mexicans (including 'terror babies') and Muslims. Remaining silent is NOT an option.

[Skip Intro]

25. oops

[Zontor]

31. Hear hear

Make them defend their narrow minded intolerance of anyone or anything different.

[applegrove]

42. I love that last paragraph. It is so true.

[Curmudgeoness]

5. You are so right. This is a red herring thrown out there so

people get all worked up over this and forget the bigger issues. Thank you for reminding us.

[babylonsister]

7. Dispute over New York Islamic center flares into midterm campaign issue

This has to be responded to; do you think it can now be ignored?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/114331-controversy-over-ny-islamic-center-pops-up-as-campaign-issue

[scheming daemons]

10. It helps the GOP for the fall, every time it is discussed.

[babylonsister]

12. And if we don't respond, they win. Again, I think you're wrong. This

is about the rights of Americans regardless of their religion or skin color, and it should be important enough to address.

Going down this path upsets me; I hoped we were all better than that. At least the President has shown he is. I wonder about rethugs, as usual.

[pinboy3niner]

41. I'm with you 100%, babsis

It is disturbing that the RW is throwing out this kind of garbage (though not surprising). It IS important, and MUST be adressed.

[pinboy3niner]

9. I have to respectfully disagree

We may wish to let it sink, but the media will cover controversy. Protesters in NY is a story, and that will be reported. Our choice is to allow the RW spin to dominate, or to counter it. We really didn't have a choice on this.

[Curmudgeoness]

21. Yes, the media will continue to flap about it. But it is a no win

argument on our part. The suggestion in this thread to get the conversation back to issues is important.

[pinboy3niner]

38. I get to agree and disagree here. :)

I don't think civil rights and constitutional issues are no-win for us.

At the same time, the economy and jobs are the top issues, and we need to address that. But I don't see why we can't do both, especially when the Right is raising basic civil rights issues. To remain silent on the mosque would be ceding an important issue to the wingnuts.

I'd like to see dems do a better job of framing the debate. At the same time, I don't think we can afford to ignore RW bigotry against gays, Mexicans and Muslims. It kind of leaves a lot of us wondering, who's next?

[Stinky The Clown]

11. Rec 5 from your pal, Stinky

[donco6]

14. What is there to even talk about?

Has freedom of religion been suspended and I didn't hear about it? Sheesh. I can't get over all the nutballs here on this very site who are defending the position of Gingrich and his ilk.

[babylonsister]

18. If Dems ignore it, it might be suspended. Or maybe

other states might take matters into their own hands against Muslims. Google 'Muslim American anger' and guess what. So far, 285,000 hits, lots of them inspired by NY and 'the mosque'


http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=muslim+american+anger+&aq=0&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=muslim+%2B+america+anger+&gs_rfai=&fp=ea2cd8eab02d18af

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

15. it's a NYC zoning issue nothing more

[babylonsister]

19. Then it's too damn bad the rethugs are making it a constitutional

issue.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

24. agreed

newest rant to keep fox news busy fanning the flames.....and POTUS should have said nothing

[babylonsister]

29. Why should he have kept quiet? Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=412269&mesg_id=412269

And btw, what does your name mean?

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

32. my favorite south park

the Otters kill the wise one, who they used to respect, because he disagreed with NEEDING to go to war


http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419/?searchterm=

too often when I felt like I was taking a reasoned position I have had my head chopped off. So i relate to this fictional character.

[babylonsister]

33. Thanks for the explanation. So, did you check out the link I

shared?

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

36. yes

[babylonsister]

40. And? It's more than a zoning issue??? nt

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

43. the right want to make it more .... i thought Blomberg handled it well

But if you want to have this fight, then you need an expendable Democrat to call them on it, and demand a constitutional change TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT or declare all south Manhattan a National Park. They only way to win a fight with Crazy, is to be even more so.

[babylonsister]

44. It's political; that part of it is why Obama didn't want to get

involved, yet he said what he had to say. And it's not a question of wanting to have anything; it's now a done deal.

And I agree about Bloomberg: he was eloquent and said what needed to be said, as did the prez.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

35. and should have kept quite because

you can't win an argument with crazy people using logic or reason.

so that leaves the only response being "Well then you must amend the constitution"
and that should remain beneath the presidents dignity.

[Skip Intro]

17. So should we let this thread sink? nt

[snot]

20. Agreed. We need to take back the agenda; but not just here.

[TroglodyteScholar]

22. Congratulations on taking the bait yourself, too... n/t

:thumbsdown:

[DonCoquixote]

23. It is an issue made

To bring out the stupid, which of course is the GOP bread and Butter.

Now, I can see the other side of the issue. 9-11 may be a holiday this year, but trult the Imam knows some tact may be in order. All the same, the problem is that we on the left do not know how to talk to ourselves, much less others, and cannot frame things. We need to say "Look Osama, if you are so great, why are there Muslims here that hate you, and enjoy living their lives here, and prosper?" Let's even throw in a jab at the Europeans, who would doubtless find some excuse like they did in Switzerland to stop a mosque, show Muslims wearing their scarves, unlike in France!

[Skip Intro]

26. I hardly see how ignoring what is a political issue will make it go away.

Strictly politically speaking, it's quite obvious this will be an issue. I think it was a bad move, politically, for Obama to enter into the fray, if, indeed, he hopes to help the Dems win. The Dems, in the coming debates with their opponents, will now have to defend Obama's stance. Politically, this harmed all Dems facing election in two months.

Right and wrong? That's a different discussion. Politically speaking, repubs have a new weapon to use against Dems, courtesy of Obama, and Dems have a new obstacle to overcome.

Politically speaking, on a political discussion board, I have to wonder how effective letting threads on this issue sink will be in stopping the repubs from playing politics with it.

[pa28]

27. Absolutely.

Every election cycle the GOP finds an emotionally charged but completely false issue to polarize and define the opposition. The "ground zero mosque" is just this year's model.

Religious freedom is a legitimate issue of course but we always seem to end up fighting on a battlefield of the Republicans choosing in the runup to November. We can let it sink here or let the right drive the narrative and crowd out real issues with mindless anger and emotion.

[Zontor]

28. Make them defend it

Then why not make Republicans defend their objection to the mosque.

Their objection to due process of the law.

Their objection to religious freedom.

The idea is to keep them defending their views, not attacking their views. Not by trying to rationally disprove each point. Rather an appeal to emotion (something the "right" is very good at). Only appealing to the sense of fairness.

What does the "right" have? Glittering generalities, ad hominem attacks, card stacking, bandwagon, and so on.

You may decide not to talk about the mosque any more. I guarantee you Newt, Hannity, Beck and the rest of the pseudo-intellectual neo-cons will keep the masses rabid with their sophistry.

Once you start they will switch the argument and raise the bar. Don't fall for the trap. That is what we do, we follow the non-sequiter and provide even more facts. Kinda like the Evolution/Creationism debate.

I say keep those bastards on track defending their call to take away the rights of the individual.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[babylonsister]

37. Zontor, welcome to DU, and your 2 cents

is worth at least a couple of more here. :D Glad you found us, and you make perfect 'cents' to me.

[MadHound]

30. Wow,

Who appointed you message czar. I don't go into the mosque threads myself, it doesn't interest me that much. But for you to have the arrogance to try and tell people what threads to respond to and not respond to, really now, that's sad. Let it sink was stupid and presumptuous then and it is now.

[alfredo]

34. The Iman worked for bush. His job was to build understanding

Between the US and the Muslim world.

[babylonsister]

39. Now there's another point that should be highlighted; I

think I read that, but it should be an 'issue'. Someone tell that creep Cornyn ASAP!

[alfredo]

49. Don't confuse him with facts.

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. I think the right-wing anti-Muslim hysteria is getting so crazy and so unAmerican that they can

actually be harming themselves in the long run and perhaps even handing the Democrats an issue. The GOP is already painting themselves as the party of hate.

When all is done and said most Americans are pretty nice people. I've asked lots of Muslims how they have felt treated in the U.S. - even in the rural South. In the vast majority of cases they have reported that people are very nice and don't seem to hold them being a Muslim against them, at all - at least on the personal level even in places like rural Alabama.

Segregationist politicians in the 1960's were defeated, turned in to pariahs and largely confined to the dustbin of history because the were confronted, The basic sense of fairness, a basic live and let live attitude and an appeal to the enlightened side of American tradition and values defeated them. The right-wing has jumped on anti-Muslim hysteria hoping to make some gain. The right-wing is going to continue trying to whip up anti-Muslim hysteria anyway, whether we play along or not. I think they should be confronted and exposed for exactly what they are doing along with an appeal to a basic sense of fairness and decency.

[obxhead]

46. We do the same thing with Palin. If the blogs and the MSM were

not so obsessed with posting every stupid word that comes out of her mouth she would have faded away into obscurity again. I guess it's kind of like that highway car wreck. Everyone just has to slow down and look even if they're aware they are now being part of the traffic problem by doing so.

[Mimosa]

51. People at DU pay more attention to Palin than almost any other site

Frankly anything about her or her family bores me.

The board owner (a Muslim MD) on another forum I frequent had posted an article where the Imam explained the purpose of the Cordoba house community center. It's an interesting article.


http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_the_truth_about_the_mosque_the_leader_of_proposed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html

[yowzayowzayowza]

47. Ignoring the swiftboat crap was an error. n/t

[KharmaTrain]

48. Faux Barks...The Wingnuts Jump

This is yet another manipulated "outrage" eminating from the Ailes machine at Faux Noise. They're the ones who created this "controversy" in the first place and continues to stoke it...with the rest of the corporate media going along for the ride.

Of course they want it to be a major campaign issue...it's astroturfed just as the "illegal aliens" and DOMA...distracts from real issues such as two wars for profit, a corporate welfare system out of control and the destruction of the middle class.

[Faryn Balyncd]

50. The 2010 elections should (& are) about whether we will let the GOP destroy Social Security.

[Whisp]

52. K&R!

[Festivito]

53. WRONG. RW needs the time to get the people to buy into the story.

Once people have taken a stand without facts, many cannot turn back when they hear the facts they did not know and wish they had.

Talking to my 24-hour-a-day radio news junkie neighbor, there is surprise to know:

. the center is two-and-a-half blocks away. (Thought it was on the site.)

. the spot is surrounded by high-rise buildings that don't allow it to be seen from nor to see to the WTC site.

. There are already mosques near the site.

. none of the detractors offer a number of how many blocks would be alright.

. none of the detractors offer whether or not the existing mosque sites should be torn down or not.

The whole controversy soon seem unnecessary.

But, once given to talking with friends and family without these facts and doing so taking the uninformed choice, to drop the uninformed choice becomes too difficult.

[athenasatanjesus]

54. Isn't every social issue created by the right a distraction? nt

[Beacho]

55. I actually don't think it's a bad issue

Remind people about the constitutional principles that govern our country. This has caused a big stink in the You Tube Atheist 'community' and the people that were shouting about the mosque are getting their butts kicked. The people speaking up for religious freedom have been all across the political spectrum. I think this is a win for us.

[rusty fender]

56. One of the most offensive things I heard in the '08 election season

was a caller to C-Span, who said that America could not trust Obama because he is a Muslim. The call taker, Steve Scully, corrected her, saying that he couldn't argue with her about her opinion, but that factually, she was wrong about Obama being a muslim. She then said that Obama was a muslim by virtue of his father being a muslim. Scully said that Obama's father being a muslim doesn't automatically make Obama a muslim. Then came the whopper: she said that muslim was in his blood.

Muslims have different blood in their bodies than non-muslims? How offensive is that? "We" can't trust "Them" because their blood is different! Sometimes you just have to smack down the stupid. Like this "ground-zero mosque." The right-wing propaganda stupidity needs to be debunked at every chance.:banghead:

[Rosa Luxemburg]

57. I've said my piece putting it straight and I will let it sink

[Cal33]

58. You're right. Let's get back to real issues where the Neocons

are weak, and really have nothing positive to offer.