amazing archological fact just spilled on PBS....

[MnFats]

i'd never heard this before, so if it's common knowledge be assured I'm suitably embarrassed...

at the tail end of a program on Atlantis just now....the narrator reported that traces of nicotine and cocoa had been found in the bodies of Egyptian kings. Ancient Egyptian kings.
tobacco at the time grew only in the western hemisphere. Cocoa grew only in the Andes mountains.

draw your own conclusions.

does anybody else find this incredibly amazing?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. I saw that, too. Fascinating...

[Jackpine Radical]

2. I didn't know it, but it's a fascinating datum.

If you really want to weird yourself out on that ind of stuff, get hold of a copy of Cremo's Forbidden Archaeology.

[Redstone]

3. I do believe that worldwide commerce is MUCH older than we suspect.

Redstone

[acmavm]

4. There's been some speculation that there was some possible trade

between Africa and South America. But there is no definitive proof.

I think that anything is possible.

edit: poor choice of words.

[patricia92243]

5. I'm not coming up with any conclusion - what do you think it means?

[malaise]

6. Not really

since there was travel between those continents according to researchers.
South America is not that far from Africa.

Weren't the two continents one millenia ago?

[Odin2005]

21. Not unless you think people rode dinosaurs.

The continents take millions of years to move.

[Robb]

42. They didn't?

Crap. I've gotta start watching PBS.

[misanthrope]

23. Just like hurricanes...

...the same forces that bring weather from the African Coast to the Americas would make such trade routes possible, much as it facilitated the slave trade.

The hubris of contemporary man is sometimes amazing. Does no one remember Thor Heyerdahl and the Kon-Tiki?

[havocmom]

45. Heyerdahl's experimental trips came to my mind when I read the topic header

Yes, people now are pretty smug about things. Most of the good stuff was invented, explored LONG LONG ago and just expounded upon by contemporary man.

Those Dark Ages thing-ies tend to slow us down as a species too. Seems like we are heading there again. The ruling class doesn't like it when the serfs get too much knowledge ;)

[misanthrope]

60. I've seen the puzzlement on faces when I tell them...

...that ancient Greeks invented a steam engine. They think nothing of any importance ever came before the Renaissance.

I once heard someone declare "every significant advancement of thought and science stemmed from the British Isles." I would have been able to ignore it had this particular person not been a molecular scientist. Instead, it just solidified for me the notion that aptitude can have little to do with general intelligence or wisdom.

[dave_p]

27. It's still disputed

You have to go back millions of years (before people) to find the continents vastly different, and thousands of years before the Egyptians to find the Asia-America land bridge intact.

I think it's safer to think of odd ships going off-course rather than sustained transoceanic trade, otherwise there are problems about the scarcity of evidence and the subsequent loss of the geographical knowledge & seafaring expertise.

It's suggested too that some of the lab results could be other plant compounds mimicking the substances indicated. But there are independent indications of contact across the Pacific.

I'm still sceptical, but anything's possible.

[malaise]

38. You're correct

Here's an interesting link
http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/ancientamerica.htm

[dave_p]

40. It's very contentious

I'm with Afrocentrists in celebrating Africa's high civilizations before Europeans came along (though I'm sceptical of many of the demographic & economic claims - we were similar peoples in very different physical contexts), but I think in our collective advance none of us had the technology for such contacts on any major scale.

The Olmec statue features are certainly interesting, but without safer evidence I believe they're an independent creation. To me it's just an expression of the creativity and vision we all share. I'm inclined always to question the loss of world-changing knowledge that suggested ancient contacts imply. But we're learning all the time, so nothing's ruled out.

At the end of the day we all came out of Africa, so we've no sensible reason to deny the accomplishments of any among us.

[malaise]

51. That simple really

We all came out of Africa

[semillama]

47. Here's another interesting link

http://mutnodjmetsmusings.blogspot.com/2006/11/black-and-white-of-ancient-egyptian.html

[malaise]

52. Thanks for this

I've bookmarked the thread and will read this in detail later.

[dave_p]

54. It's another long-running debate

This question goes back to the researches of the Senegalese historian Cheikh Anta Diop, who first proposed the theory half a century ago. His specific claims are challenged on statistical, genetic and linguistic grounds, but I think he performed a valuable service in highlighting Egypt's relationship with the lands to its south. There's ample historical record showing that Egypt was as much a part of Africa as of the Mediterranean basin, and climate history suggests a peopling of the Nile Valley from a pre-desert Sahara.

I think Diop overstated his case: Egypt was always a crossroads, and no contribution should be ruled out. But his emphasis on the race of the ruling elite always rested on questionable assumptions, and is it really so important? We now now that many parts of Africa developed sophisticated social and state structures quite independently of anyone else. In Diop's day that understanding hadn't yet struck home in the prevailing Eurocentric historiography, and he contributed to challenging outdated assumptions. Now we've moved on, and I prefer to think of ancient Egyptians as a unique and still incompletely-understood society interacting with all around them, and clearly influencing cultural development in Europe too.

[shraby]

7. I read about that a couple of years ago. To

me, it means there was trade between the two continents much earlier than thought possible. If you look close at the Olmec art and the large round heads in S. and Central America, they suggest the crossing of the oceans also.

[petronius]

8. It could also mean that a lot of archaeologists smoke and

drink hot chocolate while they work... :)

A trans-Atlantic trade at that time would be amazing - I'd like to see more on this.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. At this point, I have to go with that as the more likely explanation. n/t

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

9. As I remember it...

It was COCA that they found in their bodies.

I wonder how you say "Let's honk up some 12 inch Texas gag rails, d00d!" in ancient Egyptian?

[DKRC]

15. Does this look right to you, dood?

:evilgrin:

[Ghost in the Machine]

19. spellcheck is your friend!

the 4th bird should have been a duck... :rofl:

[DKRC]

31. I'm spellchecks' red headed stepchild

so it don't do me a bit of good to go see if I got my ducks in a row.

:evilgrin:

[mitchtv]

18. Coca is what I had heard

quite a while ago

[MnFats]

41. yes, thanks for pointing that out...not the same substance..

...hot chocolate does not come from coca, the substance found in egyptian kings...

[BuyingThyme]

10. I'm amazed that they have the technology to detect that stuff.

[Avalux]

12. How can we assume there wasn't global trade back then?

We think we know so much about the ancient world.....we don't. Remember that history is only what we've been allowed to know.

[frogcycle]

13. unless, of course,

tobacco and cocoa grew in what is now the Sahara, leaving no traces as it desertified and spread to the western hemisphere from there a few thousand years later...

fun facts to ponder; they challenge "conventional wisdom" - but there are myriad possible explanations

[L. Coyote]

14. Fake mummies were sold for a profit. spelling is archaeological.

Do a search on hallofmaat.com for these keywords. http://www.hallofmaat.com/search.php?1

If it was about Atlantis, that's a word of caution in its own right to any scientist.

[Recursion]

16. I remember reading that a few years ago

The whole "isolated civilizations" model has been dead for a while; the problem is Renaissance Europe assumed everyone else was as backwards as they were if not more. There's a very interesting book called "1421" about a Chinese circumnavigation of the globe in that year.

[Odin2005]

22. Nearly all historians consider "1421" to be a load of bull.

That Chinese guy never got farther then East Africa.

[malaise]

39. DNA tests may disprove

your argument

[morningglory]

35. Amelia Earhart couldn't find a little island in the Pacific, while Tahitians went all over

the Pacific in little outrigger canoes, apparently navigating by "nodes" they could see on the ocean waves.

[misanthrope]

17. If I'm not mistaken...

...it was the alkaloids found in "coca" as in "cocaine," not "cocoa" as in "chocolate."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. nicotine's found in a number of plants.

The nightshade family of plants. Which were present in the eastern hemisphere.

[Odin2005]

26. Good point.

We can't assume that tobacco was the only plant ever used to get a nicotine buzz.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

28. Yeah...

But it is a lot more interesting to envision Egyptians, with their eyes bugging out on 12 inch stalks, snorting 8 balls and chain-smoking Camels.

Kinda like any hair band from the 80's. ;-)

[semillama]

50. Cocaine alkaloids in Africa

E. brownianum_, Southern Africa
E. caffrum_, Southern Africa
E. delagoense_, Mozambique through South Africa
E. emarginatum_, Guinea to Kenya, Central and Southern Africa
E. gerrardi_, Madagascar and Mozambique
E. monogynum_, India
E. pictum_, Southern Africa
E. platycladum_, Kenya to Mozambique and Madagascar
E. pulchellum_, Southern Africa
E. zambesiacum_, Central Africa

So much for that. Now, if you find a coke spoon on a chain around the neck of a mummy, let me know!

And for wandering Polynesians, latest evidence puts colonization of Hawaii no earlier than 800 AD and Easter Island about 1200 AD.

[Odin2005]

24. Contamination?

[dave_p]

30. Allegedly not

She did a test on the hair, which is supposed to prove ingestion.

But it's suggested that it could be other substances returning similar results.

[NashVegas]

25. Yep. And Lief Erikson Was Throwing Keg Parties in Newfoundland

..

[htuttle]

29. Ever heard of Thor Heyerdahl?

While he personally didn't think it was likely that the ancient Egyptians traded with South American peoples, from what I've read, the Ra II expedition at least proved it was possible.

[Jim Warren]

32. At Palenque, in Chiapas, Mexico

There is a museum where they house several of the original bas relief stellae from the site. On one of these stone tablets is indisputable representations of a coiled Cobra snake AND an elephant! Neither of these indigenous to the New World.

When I saw these I was blown away.

[L. Coyote]

37. Elephant species still can melt out of glaciers in the Americas

Wasn't there one in Utah in historic times.
They are in rock art in Utah.



FROM: THE PALEOAMERICANS:

Issues and Evidence Relating to
the Peopling of the New World

http://jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleoamericans.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Yes and no

more and more evidence that there was quite a bit of traffic between the new and the old world has emerged over the last fifty years, starting wiht the Kontiki expedition in the 1950s that proved the passage was possible in reed ships

And no, it is NOT common knowledge

[MLFerrell]

34. I knew this...

Transatlantic trade has existed since time immemorial...

You really want to blow your mind? Look up "rongo rongo", the script of Easter Island, and cross-reference that with the Indus Valley Script (neither of which have been deciphered).

If you want further evidence that a highly developed global culture existed prior to recorded history, I'll be glad to oblige.

Might want to look up the Antikythera Mechanism while you're at it...

:)

History is fun!

EDIT: Also, notice that Easter Island and the Indus Valley (I forget whether it's Mohenjo-Daro or Harappa specifically... I think it's Mohenjo-Daro) are as far apart as two place can be on the planet, within a tolerance of about six miles. Neat, huh?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

36. some of the Mayan figures have African features

I always thought it would be cool if we could prove a link.

[malta blue]

49. I have heard this theory before, mostly connecting the Olmec

peoples with African ancestry.
http://ipoaa.com/africans_in_americas.htm

As an archaeologist who has worked in mesoamerica, I can tell you that this theory is ridiculed among many. I don't really buy it because there is no concrete evidence, however, I would not be surprised if evidence emerged sometime in the future.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

55. hard to find evidence of a boat blown out to sea during a storm

that makes it's way to South America. :)

I have heard that dna tests are showing some african markers in areas of SA. No idea if it's legit or not, I'll try and find a link...

[malta blue]

57. I hear ya...

Like I said, I have heard of this theory, and have not dismissed it totally, nor have I embraced it as fact.
:)

I would be interested in the DNA analysis you mentioned, but since I am in my cubicle I have no way of really researching at this time.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

62. a few links...

page 14 is where it starts getting interesting
http://www.geocities.com/olmec982000/afmaya2.pdf

I'm still weeding through this at the moment, lots about Native American DNA patterns...
http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-230.html

[H2O Man]

56. Some folks

associated with SUCO used to spend a good deal of time in mesoamerica.

[malta blue]

58. I did most of my meso work through Albany

and did my S. America work through the Field Museum of Chicago. Have you done any meso work, or are you primarily N. America?

[H2O Man]

59. Northeast,

mainly NYS. Much of my interest was in the small, isolated inland sites and rock shelters. There is a lot of rural territory between the Susquehanna and Delaware Rivers, and one of the faculty members from Hartwick was interested in the land routes people used between the two rivers. Having worked on farms in my youth, I was aware that old-timers had "kill sites" for deer that were the same places used in the late woodland times, and some of the farmers had also found "flint factories" up in the hills. A small piece of the larger puzzle, for sure, but the folks at Hartwick and SUCO (and sometimes SUNY-B) were always interested in what I had documented. (I was able to purchase a small collection of meso-artifacts a few decades ago.)

[MnFats]

43. ANYWAY! i think DU is about the only place...

...where one could bring this up and have an interesting, if pointed, discussion about this stuff.
thanks, guys.

[Octafish]

44. They'd find it in Smirko, too, if the AWOL boy-king had taken his drug test...

[SpiralHawk]

46. The Mayan elders I know told me a long time ago that they had trade with

Egypt...and shared many sacred herbs and tools...a VAST subject, not really ready for prime time...

[lildreamer316]

48. Cocaine mummies.

I have a link somewhere..

Here's a couple:
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Misc/mummies.htm

http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_2000/wells.html

There was a television program called The Curse of the Cocaine Mummies; artilce by the same ppl:
http://www.flem-ath.com/cocaine1.htm

[H2O Man]

53. You might enjoy

"America, BC" by Barry Fell (1976). It has been reprinted in 1989 and 2001. Harvard professor Barry Fell discussed the evidence of contact between the "old world" and "new world" in an interesting work.

[EstimatedProphet]

61. Proof that we were visited by aliens, as Von Daniken said

I knew it!

:silly: