Angry and Yes, More Falwell

[Madspirit]

I am so angry at the people who are angry at the people...<g>...who are gleeful about the passing of Falwell.

I've read everything: "if you act like them, you ARE them". Sorry, Nietzsche said it much better and no, not true. Being happy a fascist fundie has passed is not the same thing as killing a black drag queen.

I've read: "how can you possibly revel in another's death". I don't usually. I am willing to bend the rules of etiquette and demeanor. This man was much like a Hitler.

I've read: "he is family". I don't think Sly or Sister Sledge would agree and he sure as hell isn't my family.

My god it's easy for straight white liberals to be dismissive of what people REALLY do go through in life just to make it from one day to the fucking next day. It's so easy for straight white liberals to really NOT get the harm caused by people like Falwell...the death, the misery, the lack of rights.

I am an un-medicated bipolar because I not only cannot marry the woman I have spent 15 years of my life with, I CAN'T EVEN BE ON HER INSURANCE. Oh and just btw, bipolars have a 15 times higher rate of suicide than the average. I can't see a doctor. We cannot afford it. If something happened to my lover, I could end up on the streets. If I ended up in the hospital unable to make my own decisions, it would fall to some East Texas hick-assed relative I haven't seen in 20 years, not to the woman I love and am spending my life with. The kind of hate this man spread KILLS PEOPLE LIKE ME. Not just kinda dead.

You have a child's problem. You don't get the difference between venting...something my shrink said is perfectly healthy, just btw and spreading bile and hatred that actually could have inspired things like...the 1000s of dead gays and minorities from hate crimes EVERY YEAR.

Falwell inspired the kind of people who beat Matthew Sheppard to a bloody pulp and then left him strung up on a barbed-wire fence to bleed out over several hours.

Even the most angry thread today, not ONE of us has said it would be OK to murder Falwell. No Falwell was harmed in the making of these threads.

Many gays and minorities are harmed and killed EVERY FUCKING DAY BY PEOPLE LIKE FALWELL AND PEOPLE INSPIRED BY FALWELL.

Keep your fucking sanctimony because it rings totally false, naive and shallow. You really don't GET it and you hide it under some kind of treacle piety. Well bully for you. I could tell you things that have happened to me in my life and to my girlfriend and to friends of ours...JUST BECAUSE OF WHO WE LOVE....done to us by people like Falwell. You should be ashamed for trying to shame ME.

Don't worry, when he was actually alive, he was never the victim of ANYFUCKINGTHING. We don't actually kill, in case you hadn't noticed. Take your treacle piety and put it somewhere there is no sun.
Lee

[acmavm]

1. Coming from someone who is indeed suffering from the words, actions,

and deeds of these phoney bullshit artists in $2,000.00 suits, I think you opinion carries quite a bit of weight.

Thanks.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. 5th Rec. Off to the greatest page with you!!

[MadMaddie]

3. Well said..Madspirit and keep preaching the truth.

[tblue]

4. How should gays, Jews, Communists, liberals, and the disabled have reacted when they saw this:

Any reaction from his victims was within the bounds of reason, if you asked me.

You keep on, Lee! I am in your corner. Hell, come to California. You'll be welcome here!

[StarryNite]

12. They should have shown him respect

and compassion, according to some on here. I guess some figure once you die nothing you did in life mattered whether good or bad. :shrug:

[TankLV]

124. Exactly!

They just don't get it...

They will never get it...

[libnnc]

5. Thank you.

This lesbian (also kept from being on my SO's insurance) thanks you for your posts today.

A weight has been lifted off of my shoulders today.

[Jack1963]

6. I am with you

Thank you, Madspirit, for speaking up.

From the east Texas relatives to the place where there is no sun, I am totally with you on this.

[seabeyond]

7. some people can get it, live it, be effected by it and still not

feel the need to be "gleeful about the passing of Falwell. "

so breathe out. in just a you mean chat, (i have recently picked up on your posts and have enjoyed many of them, agreeing most always with you) without anger, without accusations.
why, if i say that to throw this hate out there is not healthy and good, and that it feeds does it mean i do not "get it". that i do not understand the harm this man and many others in religion are committing to individuals, the community and the nation.

i have been "getting" what the fundamentalist has been doing to this nation for a while and agressively, continually fighting it in my community. it is a HUGE issue for me. years ago i said it is not the republican that is our true enemy it is this fundamentalist christian. it is something i so get. in so many ways. that i am so offended by. and that people i love are being hurt by.

why because i dont embrace the dancing on the grave, must you insist i dont get it.

could it be that i do get it, am as offended by it as you are. i certainly work as hard (since i dont know you) maybe harder to combat and confront this.

and still.... i dont think hate to hate will create peace. i think hate is not productive. i think hate feeds on itself. it isnt about forgiving falwell, excusing him, or finding something nice to say about him. we know who he is. he gave us that.

[Madspirit]

13. As I said

No Falwell was hurt in the making of these threads. It's just venting and healthy actually.
Lee

[undergroundpanther]

16. Venting is not hate Seabeyond

Anger directed as who has preached to rabid true believers that you,personally are an abomination,and knowing some of those brainwashed believers will and have KILLED some person like you before.. This it changes the equation of anger.

Anger expressed online and directed twords those assholes who in life said many times on TV in churches full of the same sort of believers,they want you dead ,that God hates you (in this case Falwell hated gays,pagans etc.) I am transgendered Bi and pagan. He was targeting ME.

Falwell used god and the twisted scriptures as a cover for his own bigotry. Anger directed at Falwell by many who felt the pain of his minions here does not have the same motive As the motives of a perpetrator like Falwell when he hates people or a class of people like gays.

Falwell hated gay people because his particular evil interpretation of a text satisfied his own bigoted heart. He hated and he could get away with it insulated by this flock, he never had to feel the pain he caused. Falwell
used biblical text and justified his hate of people he never met who were gay trans-gender or pagans with it..

Falwell wanted to instigate a culture war, ,he wanted Christians to kill us all so god would favor HIM and give Falwell and his followers more power over how everyone lived thier lives and he wanted control because he was a psychopath .For Falwell religion was a tool,God was seen through his own bigotry, power lust and narcissism,and God in Falwells mind approved of this.People with personalities like his gravitate to his brand of religious sadism.For the SAME REASONS.Falwell liked the idea of culture war and a Theocratic America. He mixed church with state to control America.This is because he was a very evil pig.

Falwell hated us because that's who he was regardless of his religion and hate is where his 'power' rested and his church was defined by who he hated too. But those people victimized by his hateful church and his hateful words were wounded by him indirectly ,some were threatened and even sometimes killed by Falwell's take on religion.

Why is it that the people most devoted to being against hate crime legislation are the ones least likely to suffer from it? Why is it that they fail to get that it’s designed to cause fear and intimidation not just in the one person, but in their entire group? And being angry about that is healthy,being glad a person who was a tyrant is dead.

So remember that just as wanting to “kill” someone is not necessarily a desire to commit an actual crime, a fantasy of revenge is not necessarily a desire to inflict actual hostility. Sometimes it is just a silent mental wish to see someone get paid back, a wish to feel the satisfaction of knowing that the one who causes hurt will get hurt in the end. I am glad he is dead because his hateful belief system he propagated hurt me personally. I have been chased by christians with knives in the 90's because they saw my pentagram on my neck. It hurts to be treated as abomination because I couldn't be girly enough or christian to fit those stupid gender roles and twisted scriptures that ass hats like Falwell get people to act out in the name of religion on ME.

Expressing joyous ANGER at a dead hater, for being a tyrant,for saying things that caused death,is for the wounded a step twords HEALING! For Falwell hurt people with his religion and his words and actions.
The religious abuser's goal is to make the victim feel guilty and manipulate the victim to follow the abuser's choices and actions.

http://www.drirene.com/the.htm

[seabeyond]

30. oh... you write so well. there is SO much in your post. would like it on the front page

you gave me a real gift with your expression. thank you.

i have a young son whose heart was broken for a time because of the fundamentalist. i do understand.

[undergroundpanther]

31. Thanks seabeyond!!

I am still tapdancin' tho..LOL.

[seabeyond]

32. ya.... its yours to do. n/t

[philosophie_en_rose]

63. If I could recommend a post, I'd recommend yours.

:thumbsup:

The thing that truly annoys me about the holier-than-thous are that they do not give anyone the room to deal with this event in their own way.

If someone, anyone, dies, the survivors will deal with the event in different ways. Even for a beloved person, the survivors could feel anger or humor or bitter or peace. It's not malicious to recognize your feelings and process them in your own way.

However, not only do some people believe in their self-proclaimed superiority, they feel the need to broadcast it and let everyone know how inferior they are. Lame.

[seabeyond]

140. self proclaimed superiority, holier than thou. must go to dismissing, demeaning, name calling

as you insist your opinion isn't respected.

my post was equally my opinion, from my perspective, without the need to make someone less. how i see it. i did not chose to dismiss the others view, i simply se4e it from an angle that i feel is harmful. in my expressing my view, you come back in an attack, totally without respect.

this is exactly what i am talking that this issue causes in this nation. a total disrespect and combative nature of us against them.

i love underground and appreciate her post and thank her for her post and embrace the pain that she feels. i value madspirit to the utmost. i have no place what so ever to minimize the pain that they experience.

but to state that i am holier than thou is to totally miss the debate/argument. it isn't about being holier than thou. and holier than thou is so far off of who i am it is nothing more than the name calling that so many do today to stifle dissent

[myrna minx]

65. undergroundpanther, I really appreciate your posts.

You expressed so well what I am feeling. Thank you for expressing it far better than I could ever dream of writing.

[nadine_mn]

139. I agree seabeyond...

I have never once said that people don't have a right to vent, I just cannot understand joy at someone's death. That does not mean I defend Falwell or condone his behavior, nor do I think that anyone who is venting about their feelings his death (gleeful or otherwise) are bad people.

What I object to is the name calling by DUers to other DUers who don't agree with each other. I don't think anyone should try to shame Madspirit for her feelings nor do I think that anyone should be namecalling the people who disagree with celebrating anyone's death.

I agree with you sea - hate feeds hate

I have not seen anyone defend Falwell on these posts, what scares me is that he was just a man -however he was able to spread so much hate in life and continues to spread that hate in death

[seabeyond]

141. i have not see anyne defend falwell either. yet... that is the argumet

that is continually thrown at those of us that doesnt face this kind of issue with the same response to a death of a man that is not respected or liked and that has recognizably done harm to so many people and our nation as a whole. regardless of the number of times it has been corrected that it is not a matter of defending the man nor his actions, that is ignored. this is a prevelent way to argue today that i dont have much appreciation for. it is a dishonest form of interaction. to both the party being ignored and by the person making the argument. it is an absolute way of not coming to understanding of both perspectives, to continue in battle. i prefer to not be in battle at all times, for every reason we can possibly find to fight with one another.

[glitch]

8. :hug: nt

[monarch]

9. Good post!

I wish that somebody would gather, in one post, all of the posts by people like you who have been personally affected by Falwell's hateful crusades. I know that I posted one about being a lesbian feminist who had worked on abortion cases as a lawyer. I also read a really heartfelt post by someone whose grandmother had myasthenia gravis. Televangelists drained her bank account while convincing her that she didn't give enough or pray hard enough to get the cure that they promised her. Despicable!

I think that the TV coverage of Falwell has been quite balanced and they have shown the clips of Falwell doing many of his most of his hateful rantings. Anderson Cooper just had on Mel White and Christopher Hitchins.

[undergroundpanther]

10. Here here!!

Excellent POST!!
BTW I was abused by people like falwell when I was a kid and I was too small to fight back.As an adult I got sucked into Assemblies of God and they fucked my head up.And I hate them for that. The anger I have at evil people like falwell is immense.I don't think there is good in them. .The type of twisted religion and pernicious ideology this pig preached has made me sick,it ruined my life ,my family ,robbed me of my innocence and self confidence for many years .I have been in therapy like 20 years. I have been misled abused hoodwinked by funders and because of my exposure to these bigoted bullies bible thumping bullshit I internalized the poison they preached and beat myself up, not knowing any better. I was terrified to come out,for years so I suffered longer than I should have being the wrong gender,it took me years to get that inner asshole the falwell type belief system created in my head OUT of my thoughts. And So Yeah I will dance on that little fucker falwell's grave and I will dance and cry out in joy whenever an abusive asshole like him dies. Why? because I rejoice when evil dies and can cause no more harm.Because evil hurts those who do not want to hurt. Evil harms those not causing any harm,evil is a vicious predator and a parasite upon what is innocent,tolerant,empathic and good.
And Falwell's fruits were pure evil and I despise him.Like I despise all tyrants.

[kwolf68]

11. You Go Girl

I refrained from making any negative comments about Falsewell as I felt his hateful words did enough damage, but I had no interest in lecturing DUers who were using the passing of this vile man as a way to vent in response to 40 years of hatred being spewed by this false prophet.

History will look back on Falsewell the same way it looks back on Jefferson Davis and Jim Crow.

I once asked my grandmom about gay people. She is a Bible thumping baptist in North Carolina, but wasn't part of the Falsewell clan. I asked her about gays and she said, "I love them too...they are also God's children."

Amazing such wisdom could come from a little ole' farm lady with no high school education. My grandmother = True Christian. Falsewell = Fake charlatan.

Preach on.

[PurpleChez]

64. Sounds like Grandma had more of the Xian message in her little finger

than Fartwell had in his entire, bloated, festering body. I just with more people like her would stand up and say "I am a Christian...I'm even a conservative Christian...but these hate-mongers don't speak for me." Thanks for telling us about Grandma!

[Zookeeper]

14. I get you, but I don't get where "white" comes into it.....

Most white people disliked him as thoroughly as any other group. :shrug:

He was an embarrassment.

[Madspirit]

20. Sorry

I merely was referring to him picking on minorities. ...but yes, anyone of conscience disliked him too. They just weren't his victims too.
Lee

[Kurovski]

15. Best OP on the subject out of all 200.

K&R.

It is indeed healthy to vent anger and hate rather than ACT upon it. What's so hard to understand about that?

When the feelings are RATIONAL, it is not unwarranted to feel hate and anger. They are human emotions. What is so hard to understand there?

It's pretty simple.

[Moochy]

25. Agreed, K&R

[Straight Shooter]

17. Actually, the more I read and learn about Falwell, the stronger my disgust and contempt grow.

I knew he was a false prophet, I remember his horrid comment passing judgment after September 11, but I really was unaware of the depths of his moral depravity until studying some of the posts on DU today.

At first I was relieved that he had died and his voice was finally silenced, now I'm actually grateful. I'm absolutely delighted that he no longer exists to plunder the poor and persecute the defenseless.

Wonderful post, Madspirit. As I mentioned in I think your other thread, Shakespeare said, "The evil that men do lives after them ..."

Falwell's evil will continue long after his flesh has rotted and turned to dust. I hope his afterlife consists of hearing the endless screams of those who died at the hands of Falwell's believers.

[undergroundpanther]

23. All it takes for evil to triumph

Is for good people to DO NOTHING.

His whole church and millions of christians and republicans who truly believe they are"good people" did nothing to stop Falwell or condemn his hate for so long,people got hurt the government was undermined.
And here again the pious ones say don't dance on his grave..again the good do nothing.

It seems unless you are thought of as an abomination personally because you are pagan or gay or whatever, by so many"good" people, yourself..I guess it doesn't occur to you that this shit falwell stood for and propigated has hurt many lives. This is because "good people" are able to turn away,they were too busy being pious hypocrites and so scared of thier own anger they shirked responsibility of being good,and so stood by while falwell did evil to this country and the christian religion..

[Straight Shooter]

96. "Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand."

You're right, panther. And as MLK said, "Silence is consent." :(

[insane_cratic_gal]

99. Actually I hope karma kicks his ass

and he's reborn gay, to a bunch of his most devoted followers.

[Rex]

18. They only see in black and white.

Who really cares about JF, not me. He died, so what. Lots of people die. It is disappointing to see so many threads on someone who deserves no fanfare.

[jgraz]

19. Way to kick ass

And yes, best post on this subject by far. Thank you for this. :toast:

[mudesi]

21. People confuse anger with hate

Jerry Falwell hated people.

Those of us who feel relief and joy at his passing are angry, not hateful. There is a difference.

[bullwinkle428]

22. Thank you for that...beautifully put.

I'm old enough to recall when he was shooting his mouth off constantly some 20-25 years ago, during the "glory days" :eyes: of the "Moral Majority", so I know exactly what kind of galvanizing force he was to the haters and bigots of this country...

[Der Blaue Engel]

24. I wish I could recommend this post a thousand times

Instead I'll just enclose a few "thousand words":

[Forkboy]

26. It's one of the best days I've had in years!

DU doesn't allow me to say what I think of people defending this absolute epitome of shitheadedness.

If they did allow me to say that it wouldn't just be one of the best days I've had in years...it would be the best day I've had in years.

[Madspirit]

36. Hey Forkboy!

I haven't seen you around much today!
Lee

[Forkboy]

111. I'm off the thyroid meds entirely for a couple weeks

It's only been a couple days but I'm pretty beat already.

I really wanted to join the festivities.It's not often you have someone of this high a caliber of assholeness kick the bucket so suddenly and beautifully as he did.

I remember watching him on Politically Incorrect years ago and they were talking about the death penalty (which of course this man of God believed in).When they brought up McVeigh Falwell even offered to pull the switch himself.

This is the man I'm supposed to respect or show mercy on?

I don't think so.Not only do I want to piss on his grave I'm considering leaving a steaming dookie on the headstone.

:hi:

[AnotherMother4Peace]

27. He did much damage during his lifetime. It's hard for me to mourn his passing.

[undergroundpanther]

35. I am not mourning

I am celebrating.
The world got a little bit closer to healing today.
The world got a little bit closer to freedom.

That's what happens when hateful bully tyrants die.


A pagan thought....


Hail Sekhmet, You are..
Giver Of Ecstasies
Satisfier Of Desires..
And you are also..
Lady Of The Bloodbath
Destroyer By Plagues
Destroyer By Fire
Great One In The Places Of Judgment And Execution
Sekhmet, Who Reduceth To Silence....

Falwell is silent...


Sekhmet roars,She is Great One of Healing...
So,Sekhmet,
Let my heart burn away the sting and infection of my mind caused by the Evil that Falwell was that polluted many hearts. Hear the pain that was caused through his minions. Make the force of my words,crack like thunder over the heads of those who want me dead for being who I am,


Sekhmet let the searing voices of others who were wounded rise like the scent of a sweet lotus to your nose.Do not let false piety silence them.. Let my anger,and the anger of others hurt by Falwell and my furious joy rouse all the people to awareness of the workings of trauma and do what is required to cause healing from it, and let them understand the skillful use of righteous anger..To heal the world.Sekhmet Who Gives Joys...
Sa Sekhem Sahu,

Sekhmet,Beloved Teacher..The One Before Whom Evil Trembles.
Guardian of the Heart!

[foreigncorrespondent]

28. I am torn with this!

While I agree with some of what you have said, I cannot in good conscience condone some of the vial shit that has been said around here today, relating to this.

Now I am a lesbian who (looking at it from your POV) was kept from being with now ex SO because she didn't have the right to sponsor me for immigration. But that doesn't mean I should stoop to his level now does it?

There are much better things we as a community could be doing, rather than pissing on a grave that hasn't even been dug yet. Like say working to resolve some of the damage he did to us during his life time. After all, the man will be paying his own comeuppance now by the fact he will be learning that everything he preached was indeed hateful and wrong.

[Madspirit]

29. Whew

Why don't you get....it's just a day of venting. Jeez...the man would have killed me. No Falwell was hurt in the making of these threads.
Lee

[foreigncorrespondent]

33. I never once said...

...I didn't "get" it. I said I am torn with it.

Of course I understand the feelings, I am queer remember? But I am torn because I happen to be progressive, and some of the vile shit that has been said right here today is no better than when the queer community is blamed for every election loss.

Next time, please read what I said, rather than jumping on the soap box to slam someone you think isn't listening to what you are saying. Your OP actually had me in tears. So you bet I fucking understand and GET it.

[TankLV]

126. some of the vile shit that has been said right here today is no better than when the queer community

is blamed for...

That PROVES - YOU DON'T GET IT!!!!!

Not even close!

NOTHING that has been said ANYWHERE in the "queer" community even comes close to the vile crap that spewed out of that pigfucker - NOTHING!!!!!

YOU.
DON't.
GET.
IT.

[foreigncorrespondent]

132. Oh...

...and you know me just so well, you can say this about me, huh? Forgive me, but you do not know me at all, and so you needed bother assuming to know whether I get things or not. Or is this a case of needing to bow down to you so you can stop feeling so guilty with yourself?

[nxylas]

77. By that logic, wasn't Falwell just "venting"?

Against gays, minorites etc? If he actually acted on his hatred, I missed it. To the best of my knowledge, all he ever did was go on TV and say horrible things, just as people come onto DU and say horrible things about those who are not part of the "tribe".

[SemiCharmedQuark]

34. I can't imagine how many people's deaths fall at that doorstep

People who felt they had no other options in life. People who believed his bullshit and felt as though Falwell's god hated them for who they were.

I'm not glad he's dead, but as I told my husband his being dead doesn't make him a good person. I can certainly understand how people are glad he's dead. I don't believe it is the same thing as Falwell hating gays when gays hate Falwell. I think to even suggest that is ridiculous. Falwell hated people who just wanted to be left alone, left to share their lives with their loved ones. He encouraged violence against them. People go to jail for inciting violence but he hid under a religious banner.

I think it is wrong to turn around and side with the man who brought it on himself. He did bring it on himself too. Not one person who is glad he is dead would feel that way if he hadn't acted the way he did in life. He lived a great life. He spread his hatred everywhere, had his own joke of a school, died a wealthy, respected (by his own followers) man. I can't weep for him.

If people want to talk about how much they hate me after I'm dead, fine. It won't hurt me. It is not hurting Falwell. If the venting of angry emotion is all the blowback Falwell gets for his putrid hatred, then he's luckier than many of the people he tortured with his words and deeds.

Again, that doesn't mean I am glad he's dead, I don't wish him to burn in hell, etc. etc. etc. That's not my call. But it's also not my call to tell other people whose lives were made a living hell by Falwell to tone it down. They shouldn't have to.

It's great if people can forgive and forget and sway together and sing songs. But the reality is we are human and we have emotions. It's not all that helpful to condemn people for venting them. I don't think many people can truly feel the damage Falwell has done. I know I cannot imagine it.

So, at the end of this long rambling post, I guess I am saying that I agree with you MadSpirit. That is all.

[Neshanic]

37. Thanks for saying what needed to be said. His commerce was making life miserable...

for so many. So many...

[racaulk]

38. So glad to recommend this post.

Thank you for sharing the very personal hardships you have faced due to Falwell, his hate-filled rhetoric, and the followers his words have inspired. Hugs and much love to you and your partner. I hope everything works out for the two of you and that you get the healthcare and legal protections you both deserve.

:pals: :hug:

[Kurovski]

39. Kick. (nt)

[WildEyedLiberal]

40. "No Falwell was harmed in the making of these threads"

Brilliant!

Don't let anyone make you feel bad for how you feel about Falwell... he deserves all your animosity and more. Let's hope that with his death, America can move closer to healing, to a truly open and accepting society.

[Duncan Grant]

41. This is the thread that deserves 80+ recommendations. I'm proud to be #30.

Madspirit -- you just settled it. Argument over. :loveya:

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

48. Oh brother

"Be better than your enemies" doesn't extend to people like Hitler, Stalin, the architects of the hate in Rwanda, Falwell, etc. And, yeah, I believe Falwell deserves his place in that vile pantheon. NO ONE on this board would tell someone Jewish to STFU about Hitler, but yet soooo many posters on here are rushing to tell those of us who were victims of Falwell's hate to STFU and rise above it. Rise above what??? The man preached hate and intolerance and evilness, and was an architect for all that is now wrong in this country. He didn't preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- but he did co-opt it and twist it and degrade it into a whirlwind of hate and vitriol and EVIL. His actions directly impact my life.

I don't believe in Hell, but today is one day I wish I did, because Falwell deserves to burn in damnation for eternity.

To reiterate: oh brother.

[PurpleChez]

61. This is one straight, white WASP who ain't gonna tell you to STFU,

for the reasons you gave, and more. He brought so much misery to so many people. They should be allowed to be happy that he is gone.

[LostinVA]

71. Thank you -- sincerely

:pals:

[cboy4]

53. I can't find Falwell's grave on Yahoo Maps. Could you be a peach

and provide the link so I can go pee on it?

I mean, it's not like he doesn't deserve it.

After all, this fraud of a Christian terrorized gay people for many, many years.

[Jamastiene]

58. Falwell's funeral hasn't even happened yet, so you have

no basis for comparison. Falwell claimed to be a Christian, which means he did unto others as he would have other do unto him. He's fair game for some of his own hatred to come bouncing back at him, in life and in death. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

72. Yup, that's how I read it, too

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackBeck]

78. Welcome to homophobia, tomreedtoon devision.

[Duncan Grant]

83. Madspirit and Fred Phelps are on the same level?! That's one twisted argument.

As a gay man, I'm continuing to express my contempt for Falwell's actions (and ideology) just as I did when he was alive. I think of it as self-defense. I'd even argue that it's an act of self-respect to oppose efforts like yours that dismiss the feelings of people exploited by Falwell. That you would vilify a lesbian (or other glbt people) for telling the truth about their experience is -- simply put -- contemptible behavior.

I've never heard the phrase "be better than your enemies". If it requires me to sit in judgment of others (as you have judged people here) or to meet some idealized moral standard then I'll have nothing to do with it. Truth be told, you're taking a cheap shot at people who deserve far more respect than that manipulative grifter in Lynchburg.

:grr:

[EFerrari]

87. If you can't recognize the difference between expressing

an opinion in an appropriate venue and stalking mourning people, you have a problem.

Right on, Lee. K&R

[yardwork]

94. Wow. I'm really offended by your post.

I haven't posted anything about Falwell. I'm not dancing or peeing on anyone's grave. I'm certainly not mourning him, either. As a woman, a lesbian, a pagan, and a socialist liberal, I was a target of Falwell's calculated, relentless, and heavily-funded campaigns. Falwell has personally hurt me in countless ways. His comments are the least of it. He put his bigotry into action. Falwell is responsible for getting laws passed, decisions made, people placed in office - all of them designed to make sure that I never have the rights he enjoyed.

Falwell may not have murdered anyone with his bare hands, but he's responsible for the murders, suicides, premature deaths, and anguished lives of millions of people. He did it with deliberation. He did it over decades.

I'm not celebrating. I'm also sure as hell not going to take any nasty cracks from anybody about how my opinion of Falwell's passing makes me "just like" Fred Phelps. That is truly offensive.

[6000eliot]

43. I'm with you.

I hope he suffered, like the thousands upon thousands of people with AIDS suffered while this smug asshole stood on TV and used their lives and deaths to shill for money for his "church." Fuck Falwell.

[opihimoimoi]

44. #35 :o)

[PurpleChez]

45. Not all white liberals are so dismissive....

One of my first thoughts was "he blamed ME for 9-11" -- not because of anything that I actually DID, but because of how I THINK. He was like a Hitler. He might not have been responsible for the deaths of 20 million, but he incited and encouraged agents of hate and intollerance. He is one of several responsible for the new generation of bigots that thinks the rest of us need to honor their cultural heritage of hatred and racism.

[LeftishBrit]

46. That is a strong message

I don't usually go in for grave-pissing - apart from anything else, what's the point? - but this was someone who did and was *still* doing a lot of harm to his country, and thereby to the world. He wasn't Bush or Cheney; but if not for his kind, Bush and Cheney might never have been elected by people who thought God ordained that right-wingers should be elected. And he 'pissed' on the graves of AIDS victims. He was in the same category as extremist Islamic preachers: preaching hate is preaching hate, whatever the religion, and is just horrible, whoever is doing it.

I am sorry for his family, and I didn't actively wish death on him, but I'm not sorry that he has died, any more than I was sorry when a BNP leader died here: there are just people who do too much harm for one to grieve for them.

[GeorgeGist]

47. It's too early to celebrate the end of Falwell's ...

legacy of evil on earth; but not too early to celebrate his soul being free of him. :party:

[LostinVA]

49. Good post, Lee

[cboy4]

50. Bravo!

:bounce:

[Cobalt Violet]

51. K & R It's party time.

:party: Farwells Dead! :party::party:

[kiki]

52. I must offer a correction:

"Many gays and minorities are harmed and killed EVERY FUCKING DAY BY PEOPLE LIKE FALWELL AND PEOPLE INSPIRED BY FALWELL."

Should read:

"Many gays and minorities are harmed and killed EVERY FUCKING DAY BY PEOPLE INSPIRED BY FALWELL."

"People like Falwell" never actually kill anybody themselves. Their hands remain clean, like the high-level gangsters they are.

[Raster]

54. Much of the current crop of national homophobic bigotry can be laid squarely

at the feet of the good reverend. Time and time again he used gay baiting as a fund raising technique for his "ministry." And let the record show that in America's darkest hours right after 9/11, falwell's hate and bigotry reached massive proportions. Instead of compassion and healing, he preached hate and intolerance.

[Frank Cannon]

55. Falwell is DIRECTLY responsible for much that is fucked up...

in this formerly great nation of ours. Decades of his fomenting of hate, intolerance, and fundamentalist nonsense have had devastating effects on our country. And he did all that just to make a buck.

I, for one, am damn glad that the motherfucker's dead, and I have no moral qualms about that feeling. I'd feel the same way if I went to the doctor and found out a colon cancer that I had was gone.

[L0oniX]

56. I hope ass carrot Pat Robertson dies soon too !

:mad:

[Sewsojm]

66. Me Too!!

Me too, I despise Pat Robertson and Falwell was no better, neither merits any sympathy from me. I've gotten to the point that when any Repuke dies its cause for celebration and I don't care what anyone thinks about it.

[wicket]

57. Amen, amen and amen again!

:hug:

[bigwillq]

62. What a great post.

Thank you. :hi: :hug:

[Maven]

67. "Treacly piety"

Exactly.

Great post.

[hunter]

69. I'm recommending posts like yours for all the people who don't get it...

...the people who, in their false sanctimony and false humility and false propriety, allow evil men like Falwell to flourish.

A cancerous tumor in the body of America has been removed. It is not unreasonable for us to celebrate.

[WacoRenegade]

70. I was kind of hoping this crowd was better than this.

One of the biggest reasons I'm a liberal and not a conservative is because for so long conservatism has paid all kinds of lip service to morality while having none. And the liberals, on the other hand, have stood by principals, even at times when nobody seemed to care about them. But here WE are, giddy as can be about someone's death. I thought it was a conservative plank that you could improve society by killing off the right people?

I know, I know, nobody here killed him, and there's a big, fat line between what is happening here and murder. But somewhere it'll get fuzzy, how close are you comfortable getting to that point? Fallwell represented AIDS as god's punishment for sin, said 9/11 was caused by homosexuality, and all kinds of other terrible things, and judging by DU's reactions, most here felt Fallwell himself got sufficiently close to that line, even if he never crossed it.

I spent quite a lot of time campaigning against Fallwell and pretty much all he stood for. But the guy's dead. The fight's over. A fight is a fight only as long as both sides can defend themselves; after that it's just bullying.

One of the worst features of the current Republican party is their willingness to take any advantage they can get. They'll kick a man when he's down, they'll take candy from babies, and they'll fill their kids' heads up with bullshit. Where are we at? Bullying a dead man?

So on and on the forums go, people slinging insults at each other, calling Fallwell names, and generally acting like the crowd I came HERE to avoid in the first place. And time and time again their defense for it is, "Well, the republicans would do the same."

You're right, they would.

[jonnyblitz]

75. self -delete. responded to wrong post

[LostinVA]

89. One post in two years and you write something like this?

Victims have a right to feel this way over those who have harmed them.

People here don't like it? HANNITY doesn't like it? Guess what?

TOO BAD, TOO SAD.

[EFerrari]

90. Did you read MadSpirit's post? Because she said nothing of the sort.

[WacoRenegade]

133. Well, since you asked

Yes, I did read it.

What I was responding to was the argument in her post, and many of the Falwell (I spelled it right that time) threads that it's OK to rag on Falwell when he's dead because he was just oh-so bad. Well, what exactly was he guilty of? Speaking, campaigning, and generally being an asshole? Well, welcome to the world of freedom of speech. People do that.

I could go on for a long time about how the people who will kill homosexuals after listening to Falwell are the same people who would kill homosexuals before listening to Falwell, but nobody would read it.

Granted, Fallwell contributed to an atmosphere that's hostile to pretty much everyone and especially homosexuals, but he was still just a guy, and still just contributed. And from where I sit, all of this "venting" by dancing on Falwell's grave is no better than most white people's reaction to King's death the next morning. Sure, the politics are different, but politics is just politics, and regardless you're either the type to dance on graves or you're not.

On the other hand, maybe I just don't fucking get it. After all, just one--now two--posts in two years. But I've been on usenet for a decade with the same handle, thegoat4. Look up my posts from '96 to '98 or so. There's where I come from. I've even still got the same email if you want to make sure I'm me.

I decided to post because all this venting about Falwell and the way it's being carried out pretty strongly reminded me of what "the enemy" was doing in those newsgroups. Same tone, same arguments, same behavior. I wasn't impressed then, I'm less impressed now.

But I'm just venting. I don't expect to change anyone's behavior, or even anyone's mind. Have a nice day.

[Jamastiene]

135. That is some very interesting information you have decided to share.

"On the other hand, maybe I just don't fucking get it. After all, just one--now two--posts in two years. But I've been on usenet for a decade with the same handle, thegoat4. Look up my posts from '96 to '98 or so. There's where I come from. I've even still got the same email if you want to make sure I'm me."


Very interesting indeed.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=28706624&MyToken=b59b26b8-bbee-4d91-98f3-6685d29f8bd8ML

[EFerrari]

144. No. It's not the same to be relieved that a spewer of hatred is gone

as to celebrate the assassination of a peacemaker and a defender of social justice and human rights.

What a disgusting comparison.

[JackBeck]

93. Oh, I see. You want us to "get over it".

What were we supposed to do? Keep our mouths shut?

The fight is far from over. His flock and supports are still alive and well.

And how would you suggest we respond to Phelps' death?

And do you think the Jews should stop bullying Hitler, since he only gave the orders?

[Occulus]

97. There is nothing wrong with taking joy in the elimination of genuine evil.

Jerry Falwell was a genuinely evil man. I can't put it any plainer than that; if you need further explanation that this thread and others like it haven't provided you, then I'd say you're well beyond the help of anyone here in that regard.

[yardwork]

102. If you spent all that time campaigning against Falwell, why don't you know how to spell his name?

This is the first time I've ever pointed out a spelling error to anyone on DU. However, your claim that you "spent quite a lot of time campaigning against Fallwell (sic)" just sounds a little odd when you misspelled his name every time you used it in your post (at least four times).

[TankLV]

128. One small point - I did initially, too - same mispelling...

[Straight Shooter]

106. I've read a lot of threads and have yet to read "The Republicans would do it, too."

Actually, on DU, we tend to refer to them as Republics and some unsavory monikers, as well.

Falwell set about to destroy some good things about our country, he nipped the bud of blooming equality with his hateful rhetoric, the glory of his ego surpassing all. He caused PAIN whenever he opened his venomous mouth.

Welcome to DU. :)

[TankLV]

127. You don't fucking get it...

We don't need or want you - get out of here...

[LoZoccolo]

73. "I am willing to bend the rules of etiquette and demeanor."

We know...we know.

[sheerjoy]

74. Oh well....

TV evangelist Jerry Falwell dies at 73 By KRISTEN GELINEAU, Associated Press Writer
Wed May 16, 6:21 AM ET



Spiritually, the Rev. Jerry Falwell seemed prepared for his passing. A little more than two weeks ago, the founder of the Moral Majority preached of man being indestructible until he has finished God's work, then told churchgoers he was at peace with death.

On the day before he died, Falwell called his son and asked him to take a drive up the mountain that overlooks Liberty University, where he posed for pictures near a new, massive "LU" logo with students from the school he built.

"He said he was feeling better than he'd felt in awhile," Jerry Falwell Jr. said. "He'd been feeling kind of tired in the past two weeks."

On Tuesday morning, the 73-year-old Falwell was discovered without a pulse in his office at Liberty and pronounced dead at a hospital about an hour later. Dr. Carl Moore, Falwell's physician, said he had a heart condition and presumably died of a heart rhythm abnormality. His funeral was set for Tuesday.

The big, blue-eyed preacher with a booming voice used the power of television to found the Moral Majority and turn the Christian right into a mighty force in American politics.

The rise of Christian conservatism made Falwell perhaps the most recognizable figure on the evangelical right. The Moral Majority's condemnation of homosexuality, abortion and pornography was praised in some circles and reviled in others.

Over the years, Falwell waged a landmark libel case against Hustler magazine founder Larry Flynt over a raunchy parody ad, and created a furor in 1999 when one of his publications suggested that the purse-carrying "Teletubbies" character Tinky Winky was gay.

Driven into politics by the 1973 Supreme Court ruling that established the right to an abortion, Falwell founded the Moral Majority in 1979. He credited the conservative lobbying group with getting millions of like-minded people to vote, and one of its greatest triumphs came when Ronald Reagan was elected president in 1980.

"I shudder to think where the country would be right now if the religious right had not evolved," he said when he stepped down as Moral Majority president in 1987.

Falwell was both a businessman and a preacher, roles that each of his sons embody. He had made careful preparations for a transition of his leadership to Jerry Jr., vice chancellor of Liberty University, and Jonathan, executive pastor of Thomas Road Baptist Church.

But neither is involved in politics, an area where Falwell's influence had declined in recent years. He was quietly led in and out of the Republican Party's 2004 national convention. Just four years earlier, he was invited to pray from the rostrum.

Nonetheless, his political impact was monumental.

"Jerry was the seminal figure in bringing evangelical and fundamentalist Christians out of the catacombs and energizing them into a political voting bloc that helped elect Ronald Reagan twice and was responsible for a lot of Republican success after that," said Cal Thomas, syndicated columnist and vice president of the Moral Majority from 1980-85.

Fellow TV evangelist Pat Robertson, a one-time Republican candidate for president, declared Falwell "a tower of strength on many of the moral issues which have confronted our nation."

Others remembered the fundamentalist preacher for being divisive.

Matt Foreman, executive director of National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, extended condolences to those close to Falwell, but added: "Unfortunately, we will always remember him as a founder and leader of America's anti-gay industry, someone who exacerbated the nation's appalling response to the onslaught of the AIDS epidemic, someone who demonized and vilified us for political gain and someone who used religion to divide rather than unite our nation."

In recent years, Falwell had become a problematic figure for the GOP. His remarks a few days after Sept. 11, 2001, essentially blaming feminists, gays and liberals for bringing on the terrorist attacks, drew a rebuke from the White House, and he apologized.

Falwell, who started a fundamentalist church in an abandoned bottling plant in Lynchburg in 1956 with just 35 members, built it into a religious empire that included the 24,000-member Thomas Road Baptist Church, the "Old Time Gospel Hour" carried on TV stations around the country, and 9,600-student Liberty University, which he founded in 1971 as Lynchburg Baptist College.

From his living room, he broadcast his message of salvation and raised the donations that helped his ministry grow.

The Moral Majority grew to 6.5 million members and raised $69 million as it supported conservative politicians and railed against liberal social issues.

In 1983, U.S. News & World Report named Falwell one of the 25 most influential people in America.

With his high profile came frequent criticism, even from fellow ministers. The Rev. Billy Graham once rebuked him for political sermonizing on "non-moral issues."

Falwell quit the Moral Majority in 1987, saying he was tired of being "a lightning rod" and wanted to devote his time to his ministry and Liberty University. But he remained outspoken and continued to draw criticism for his remarks.

In 1999, he told an evangelical conference that the Antichrist was a male Jew who was probably already alive. Falwell later apologized for the remark but not for holding the belief. A month later, his National Liberty Journal warned parents that Tinky Winky, the children's TV character, was a gay role model and morally damaging to children.

Falwell was re-energized after family values proved important in the 2004 presidential election. He formed the Faith and Values Coalition as the "21st Century resurrection of the Moral Majority," to seek anti-abortion judges, a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, and more conservative elected officials.

Falwell dreamed that Liberty would grow to 50,000 students and be to fundamentalist Christians what the University of Notre Dame is to Roman Catholics and Brigham Young University is to Mormons.

As a student, Falwell was a star athlete and prankster who was barred from giving his high school valedictorian's speech after he was caught using counterfeit lunch tickets.

He ran with a gang of juvenile delinquents before becoming a born-again Christian at 19. He turned down an offer to play professional baseball and transferred from Lynchburg College to Baptist Bible College in Springfield, Mo.

"My heart was burning to serve Christ," he once said in an interview. "I knew nothing would ever be the same again."

Falwell's survivors include his wife, Macel, his two sons and a daughter, Jeannie Falwell Savas.

[jonnyblitz]

76. these sanctimonious twits that you speak of have been

pissing me off to. they can go get FUCKED.

[montanto]

79. thanks for that.

Some of us on the left need to revisit the fact that there are real reasons to be angry with falwell and his teachings, reasons to be happy he's gone.

I especially like your point that he was never a victim. I need to keep this in mind. I've never been a victim either, but I have many friends who have been and I celebrate with them and hope for a day when they can enjoy rights equal to mine.

Love who you love.

Fuck falwell.

[SmokingJacket]

80. Boy, that's an excellent post!

You're right about venting. :thumbsup:

[kayell]

81. There are not enough thumbs up in this world for how I feel about your rant! nt

[Bette Noir]

82. brava.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

84. Preach it!

As a straight, white, woman I (thank the gods) DO get it!

I am old enough to remember life before Falwell and his ilk, life before he became the media-annointed spokeperson for Christianity and the hate he spewed the One Truth of what Christ would say, before he hijacked a political party and became the new "god" a politician must bend knee to before being crowned, before he had befouled the minds of good people across this country and turned them into the stereotypical mob with pitchforks.

Did our country always have religious nutbars who cleved to the Old Testament as if it were the only book in the bible? Yes. But did they have our politicians and country and Constitution by the balls, twisting until we screamed "uncle!" like they do today? No!

You can "thank" Jerry Falwell for that.

Yesterday, after I had heard the news, I actually found myself feeling weepy. I couldn't understand why, I wasn't sad. :shrug: Then I took a moment to examine what exactly I was feeling, and it turned out to be relief! I was crying with relief that Jerry Falwell was finally gone.

I have been fighting him and what he stood for for over 20 years of my life. "Thanks" to Jerry Fallwell, my first pro-choice march was in 1982 here in San Francisco, and I have been marching ever since, for womens rights, GLBT rights, and to save our country from the likes of Falwell and Robertson and Bush.

Jerry Falwell "pissed" on me and my family and my friends and my country for 20+ years, you'll just have to forgive some of us if we "piss" on Jerry's grave for a minute or two.

[LostinVA]

91. GREAT POST

And, thank you for your avatar!

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stinky The Clown]

85. I am kicking and nominating all threads like this one

You said it very well.

[EFerrari]

109. Me, too and yes, she did.

:)

:kick:

[mconvente]

86. After taking time to read all the posts, I am united with you Madspirit

At first news of Falwell's passing I admit that I was pretty happy (perhaps amused is the better word). But I didn't want to jump on the street corner and make my sign saying "fuck falwell this or that". But after reading all the posts here, I am in harmony with you Madspirit. My uncle's partner has AIDS and though he is ok now (he's lucky to be able to afford the meds) I know that in the future things won't be so good, despite his medications.

On CNN last night, a man was on Anderson Cooper who was a gay reverend and he reminded all of us that Jerry Falwell really did hate gays. The people who killed gays and lesbians over the years have quoted Jerry Falwell and have said he inspired them. Jerry Falwell embodied the worst of humanity (or lack thereof) - there are Christians who don't want everyone not cookie-cutter-shape killed, but Mr. Falwell was not one of them.

So Madspirit, after seeing both sides of the story, I stand with you. We here at DU try and live the "higher life" more so than freepers and rethugs, but sometimes you just gotta say "fuck it" and fight back. Women weren't able to vote, blacks weren't able to advance in society (still a long way to go) and gays weren't allowed some benefits (again, a LONG way to go) by compromising with those in power above them - those demographics got to where they are now by fighting those in power, demanding rights. This is the same instance - we have to fight against hate and bigotry. And saying a big "FUCK YOU" to Jerry Falwell - other than being a great catharsis - is a step in that direction.

[LostinVA]

92. Nice post!

[mconvente]

95. Thank you - from a DU veteran like you, it means a lot

You've been here at DU ever since I got here and you've been a great presence here. The whole Falwell situation is very tenuous - if you look at the homepage, the top 5 rec'd threads are ALL falwell threads, so you can see this is a very testy issue here. But I think after seeing a lot that Madspirit is right in her feelings, and I support them. Cheers! :hi:

[LostinVA]

100. You make me blush!

I'll have to keep an eye on you.

:pals:

[Individualist]

88. While some of the sanctimonious threads are

posted by people who sincerely want to discourage hatred of any kind, many of the threads with brow beating condemnation of those of us who are glad Falwell is gone is nothing more than the latest talking point of conservatives and conservative loving DLC supporters. I try to be understanding of the former (while maintaining my own views/attitudes), but have nothing but contempt for the latter. As for me, I'm elated that Falwell is gone, and I will continue to hate the cabal and those who support them!

[GoneOffShore]

98. Here's another kick from an older, straight white guy!!

Falwell was a venomous fool, who finally choked on his own venom. My only regret is that he passed on the venom (and his genes) to two sons who will continue his hateful work.

Those decrying the joy that many of us are feeling at his death don't see the evil that he promoted.

Madspirit you have written truth.

[badgerpup]

101. I'm going to go and plant purple pansies, petunias and anything else...

...purple I can find in celebration.
Also going to be looking for tap shoes in my size and sheet music for Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead.

Jerry Foul-well was an evil man masquerading as a 'Good Christian'. He got away with it because he told people it was OK to hate who they were uncomfortable with...not only hate, but maybe go just a bit further...all in Jesus' name, of course (wink wink).

He's facing his own tribunal now...meantime there's a mess to clean up.
You know, I thought that was sort of the WHOLE POINT being a 'Christian'...not so much that we're all supposed to worship the same dude, but that we all work together, look after each other, take care of each other so that there isn't such a big mess when shit happens.

[Individualist]

104. I'm ahead of you

My purple petunias and pansies are already planted. :)

[Midlodemocrat]

103. Fantastic post. You rock, girlfriend.

:applause:

[LeftHander]

105. Here here...K&R - Fundies are now marginalized....

At last...anyone who fails to mention the bigotry, greed and ambition of Jerry Falwell are doing us all grave injustice.

The man was charlatan and a intolerant, greedy, bigot.

[Cronopio]

107. "fascist fundie has passed is not the same thing as killing a black drag queen. "

Sorry, I only heard that he said that God killed black drag queens via AIDS, not that he expressed any desire to kill them himself or for others to kill them.

I'm not defending the guy by a damn sight, but if you're going to call him a murderer or someone who told someone else to murder, please do us the favor of providing evidence beyond your shrink's opinions about what is psychologically healthy for you.

If you think his "venting" about gays caused the murder of Matthew Shepard, you might as well believe that John Lennon caused the murder of Sharon Tate, or the dog killed the Son of Sam victims. Murderers murder, not people who vent about bete noires for power and profit. People always have a choice not to murder, and my best information tells me that, for all of the sins of his vile and irresponsible life, Jerry Falwell still made the choice not to murder. If you have information that contradicts this, I would sincerely like to know about it.

[tomp]

122. um, that would be paul mccartney...

...and helter skelter had nothing to do with killing anyone. it was taken by a twisted mind and used in a twisted way. the connection between falwell and the dead black drag queen is much more direct, and no less twisted.

[Cronopio]

125. Paul it was, but the fact that it had nothing to do with killing was my point.

Still looking for the evidence that Falwell openly advocated the killing of gays.

[tomp]

142. he didn't have to "openly" advocate killing gays...

...to be clearly part of the violent anti-gay movement. his speech itself was "violent".

[TankLV]

129. Yes you ARE defending that scum bag - and you're no better than him...

Just join up so you can berate us?

How nice of you...

Get lost...

[iverglas]

143. you're not defending the guy, but if you're going to say ...

I'm not defending the guy by a damn sight, but if you're going to call him a murderer or someone who told someone else to murder, please do us the favor of providing evidence beyond your shrink's opinions about what is psychologically healthy for you.

then you need to find someone who called Falwell a murderer and talk to that person, I'd say.

What Madspirit actually said (the copy and paste function is wonderful if you're wanting to address something someone said, and let people reading know what you're actually addressing, just in case they get the impression from what you say that the person you're talking to said something quite different) was:

I've read everything: "if you act like them, you ARE them". Sorry, Nietzsche said it much better and no, not true. Being happy a fascist fundie has passed is not the same thing as killing a black drag queen.

Huh. I don't see Madspirit calling Falwell a murderer or saying that he's someone who told someone else to murder. Not at all. Really.

I see her responding to criticisms that cheering Falwell's death makes someone like THEM. I think THEM includes someone who kills a black drag queen. Who isn't Jerry Falwell.

I hope I've managed to clear things up for you. Now that we've established reality, the rest of your post becomes kinda, oh, irrelevant, doesn't it? I mean, since no one said the opposite of what you say:

my best information tells me that, for all of the sins of his vile and irresponsible life, Jerry Falwell still made the choice not to murder.

then there's just no need to respond to your conclusion:

If you have information that contradicts this, I would sincerely like to know about it.

-- is there?

Some supplemental reading, in case confusion remains:

http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/studyskills/as/as_cr_ar_ba.html#straw

Straw person argument

The name of this form of argument derives from a military situation in which soldiers in besieged castles tried to trick their enemies by creating straw men to place on battlements. This provided false targets on which their enemy would waste their arrows, spears and so forth. If the trick worked, it enabled the real soldiers in the castle to gain an advantage.

Similarly, some people argue by creating a straw person of their opponent's position. This means that you represent your opponent's argument in such a way that it cannot withstand close scrutiny. You can then easily refute it, leaving your own argument standing unassailed.

The problem with 'straw person' arguments is that they rely on misrepresenting your opponents' views.

[ComandanteChe]

108. Funny thing happened yesterday...

Falwell ceased to exist and automatically America's timeclock proceeded to advance forward an entire century. Today, the date stands at 1700. When Robertson starts turning rotten, and the other bible thumper charlatans descend to Hades, I'm sure another century or two will elapse.

Out of the dark ages America! Here we come.

The only creatures Falwell will have saved on this planet are the maggots that will soon eat his carcass up.

Adieu, adios, aux vois, arrivaderchi anti-Christ!!

[MsMagnificent]

110. DING DONG! FALWELL IS DEAD

(From: DING DONG! THE WITCH IS DEAD Lyrics)

Ding Dong! Falwell is dead. Which Falwell? That Fat Falwell!
Ding Dong! That Fat Falwell is dead.

Wake up - Americans, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, that evil Falwell is dead.

He's gone where the goblins go,
Below - below - below.
Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.

Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
Homophobe Falwell is dead!

Mayor:
As Representative of the People, In the Country of the U.S. of A., I welcome you most regally.

U.S. Citizen:
But we've got to verify it legally, to see

Mayor:
To see?

U.S. Citizen:
If he

Mayor:
If he?

U.S. Citizen:
Is morally, ethic'lly

Spiritually, physically

Positively, absolutely

Undeniably and reliably Dead

Coroner:
As Coroner I must aver, I thoroughly examined Jer.
And he's not only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.

Mayor:
Then this is a day of Independence For all Americans, especially those Gay

Yes, let the joyous news be spread that evil homophobe at last is dead!



***Please note:
I'm not denigrating overweight people -- I'm just thinking of one of the 7 deadlies which dear dead Jer obviously practiced, and often;
Gluttony.

[L. Coyote]

112. HELP list the BUSH/CHENEY scandals, PLEEEASE ... list just toooo looong.

This is just too much work for less than a group.

Yesterday was a GREAT DAY for Falwell TO DIE. Or, the Buffalo Jump to Hell.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x899312

"You have to give America's most-hated Christian a lot of credit. Even in taking his final fall (while alive), to the floor in his office at oxymoronic "Liberty University" in solitude, he pulled off a thorough going coup like noone else could have mustered. Like the lead buffalo of a large herd, he caused a massive shift in direction as he went down. Except, in this case, the herd that followed him in his descent wasn't his own--he took the opposition herd down with him, over the buffalo jump to hell. .... "

[Vidar]

113. K&R.

[gaspee]

114. Amen (n/t)

[tom_paine]

116. RIGHT fucking ON, Lee!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Politicub]

117. Well said

Thank you.

:applause:

[Maestro]

118. Some people deserve no respect in death.

He's one of them, period!

[Madspirit]

119. Yes

I agree. Someone doesn't become Good because they die. That man caused more misery than most. Let him rot in hell.
Lee

[Maestro]

121. In life, he promoted

bigotry, ignorance, charlatanism(if that is even a word), hypocrisy, etc... I see nothing to admire in the man in death.

[depakid]

120. Understood completely

K & R and most appreciated for telling it like it is.

~Depa

[TankLV]

123. Bravo! Thank you from the bottom of my heart...

Those apologists and their ilk make me sick and my blood boil...

[Jed Dilligan]

130. Thanks for your words

To me, the moral difference is that the joy expressed here is neither cynical nor inauthentic. Falwell's hate was manufactured to consolidate the power of a political and religious faction.

Falwell's life was devoted to building an empire on the bodies of scapegoats--like Hitler, like Stalin, like Mussolini.

Does anyone here have a master plan to gain control over fellow citizens by spreading hatred of Jerry Falwell? I doubt it. Even if that were the case, the impossibility of success means that person is a minor kook, not the enormous menace that Falwell was.

To draw the moral comparison without taking into account the inequality of the parties is inherently conservative.

[nadine_mn]

131. yay I am sanctimonious and shallow

<<<<<My god it's easy for straight white liberals to be dismissive of what people REALLY do go through in life just to make it from one day to the fucking next day. It's so easy for straight white liberals to really NOT get the harm caused by people like Falwell...the death, the misery, the lack of rights>>>>>


so what if you are a lesbian, minority liberal who still thinks its wrong to cheer the death of another? What if you are white and straight and have gone through hell because of the hate of Falwells? How did you arrive to the conclusion that peope who disagree with you have not suffered or that they are white or straight?



<<<<<I could tell you things that have happened to me in my life and to my girlfriend and to friends of ours...JUST BECAUSE OF WHO WE LOVE....done to us by people like Falwell. >>>>>>

do we really want to get into a pissing contest over who has suffered the most? Not every poster is white, straight... some posters here do GET IT - some of us have seen and experienced first hand what hate does...



<<<<You have a child's problem>>>>>>
hmmm I have worked with hundreds of abused children - lets not belittle what is a child's problem



You sure do have the right to vent, and guess what...others have a right to disagree with you
yet I am confused by why you are directing so much anger and nastyness to those who do not mourn Falwell's death, and who do not cheer it either - and who think celebrating the death of anyone is distasteful.

I also have met Holocaust survivors - and I am amazed at their strength and courage. The ones I have talked to did not cheer Hitler's death, the message they passed on to me was hatred of any type is wrong.

[Bluebear]

134. RIGHT ON SISTER. nt

[EFerrari]

145. Welcome to DU, nadine_mn

:)

[Duppers]

136. I feel your outrage

and it's healthy. That man preached pure hate.

I cannot believe DUers who cannot understand the pain he caused.

Hugs to ya, Lee.

[pokerfan]

137. This straight white male here

agrees with you 100%.

I was going to say boil, but a boil is just a nuisance. This creature called Falwell was more akin to a cancer on humanity.

It's times like this when I really wish there was a hell.

After the lifetime of hate he spewed forth, we're supposed to bite our tongues out of politeness? I think not.

[Iceburg]

138. Gleeful? No. Rather, I feel relieved and much safer knowing his reign of terror

is over. As a lesbian and as a election professional involved in emerging democracies, I have seen and been exposed to Mr. Falwell's evil ... the most vile act being his extreme efforts to prop up (financially and spiritually)the apartheid system in South Africa beginning in the early 1980's through to its first democratic election in 1994. Tens of thousands of black South Africans died during that period ... I weep for those that died because of Jerry Falwell and those that he inspired.

Thank you Madspirit.