Howard Dean: "mosque" should move

[oberliner]

From Salon:

http://www.salon.com/news/ground_zero_mosque/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/08/18/dean

[xultar]

1. WTF? This shit has gone off the fucking deep. up is down. left is right

[oberliner]

2. It is very bizarre

Seems strange that this has become a national rather than a local issue.

[dkf]

3. Howard Dean is from New York.

That is where his family is from.

[oberliner]

8. He isn't the only one who has weighed in

I guess I was making a broader point about how large this has all become.

[karynnj]

40. Yep - Upper East Side, Park Avenue - ie facing central park.

[flyarm]

27. HARRY REID is saying the same thing!

Sen. Harry Reid Opposes Mosque at Ground Zero - The Note
Aug 16, 2010 ... Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid opposes construction of the Cordoba House ... Republicans, who largely oppose the mosque near Ground Zero, ...

blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2010/08/sen-harry-reid-oppo... - Similar

[MikeNY]

64. He REALLY shouldn't even be commenting

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. Governor Dean, maybe, if he were governor of New York, which he's not.

[Ignis]

4. This story--like those on TP and Kos--links to a Breitbart video.

http://www.youtube.com/user/breitbarttv

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[Ignis]

17. OK, please provide a link to the video from a non-BB source.

So far, all three of these stories have linked to this video source:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2GzuAw46Os

See where it says "breitbarttv" right under the title of the video? That's the user who uploaded it.

But thanks for calling me a liar. :hi:

[oberliner]

19. Here ya go

http://wabcradio.com/sectional.asp?id=37951

Didn't mean any offense - just saying that isn't some kind of manufactured BS like most of what Breitbart does.

[Ignis]

67. Thanks.

[oberliner]

21. With respect to the video

From Salon:

UPDATE II: For those raising the issue that the tape of Dean was first released by Breitbart, and thus wondering whether it was distorted through editing, I emailed the Dean-affiliated Democracy for America, and received this reply from DFA official Charles Chamberlain: "It's not edited. It real." And just to bolster that: the website of WABC-77, the radio station on which Dean made these comments, has the same exact clip of Dean's comments on its own site. So clearly the clip is authentic and unedited.

[TheBigotBasher]

5. If they are forced to move

these bigots will not stop there. Every mosque will be at risk. Every Muslim American will face increased targeting from the hard hard right.

This is the GOP getting in to bed with actual fascists. The one thing history has taught us is never, ever give fascists an inch. If needs be, debate them - fine, but always highlight how dangerous their ideas are.

This is a simple choice, right or wrong. Too many Democratic members are forgetting the Party name - DEMOCRATIC.

[deaniac21]

6. Oh, PLEASE.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. What are your thoughts on the muslin menace, deaniac?

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. Clearly, if this center is built further away, the following day will be kristallnacht.

:sarcasm: 'cuz it's the law.

"please" = this topic needs less garment-rending.

[TheBigotBasher]

9. Please what?

Who is leading the campaign on this - far right hate groups with close ties to European Fascist groups.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/8/17/893785/-Come-on-Republicanshow-much-lower-can-you-sink-Republicans-join-up-with-European-hate-groups

So go please yourself.

[pintobean]

13. That was my reaction, too.

[Caliman73]

31. You don't think so?

People who are intolerant are never satisfied. The people who started this bullshit want Muslims to be pariahs and they are getting help from the suckers who are too wrapped up to see that they are being used as pawns by some evil bastards.

This is the beginning. If the center moves it will just give them more fuel to fire their hate and their sense of power.

[HuckleB]

15. The Dems are failing their country on this one.

This is a basic principle of the nation. If we give this up, what do we give up next?

[EFerrari]

16. Precisely. n/t

[quinnox]

10. Thank you Howard Dean for speaking sense

And as he lives in New York he has a more relevant opinion than those who don't.

The mosque is not wanted by people there by huge margins in polls and it is a delicate situation as he said, some kind of compromise can be found to move the Islam center to a less provocative area, surely.

My problem with it is it would be a gigantic neon blinking sign target for domestic terrorists, right wing nuts are going even crazier than usual because of all the idiocy on radio and tv out there regarding the Democrats and Obama as president.

[JamesA1102]

12. I live in NYC and was across the street from the WTC on the morning of 9/11

Does that make my opinion more relevant?

[quinnox]

25. yes it does

this is a local issue and affects you NY's so your opinion is more important in my view.

[JamesA1102]

65. I have no problem with it nt

[HuckleB]

14. Actually, while they say they don't like it, they say the center has the right to build.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/18/poll-new-yorkers-oppose-mosque-recognize-constitutionality/

[Starbucks Anarchist]

18. Newsflash: All of NYC is a target, no matter what's built there.

And using your logic, Rudy Giuliani is a fount of wisdom because he's from the area.

[Bluebear]

20. 'The mosque is not wanted by people there by huge margins in polls' - We poll for equality now?

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. No, but we do poll to choose elected officials.

That's the point of politics.

[David__77]

23. People also don't want gay bars abortion clinics or homeless shelters.

So what? I am so sickened. Not false sickness, but real. And I'm quite sure those who disagree with me do not care, nonetheless, it is the case.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. And so Obama should comment on each gay bar which is denied a liquor permit?

Why does everything have to be such an existential threat?

We don't have to react to every bullshit frame that the RW invents.

NYC is perfectly capable of dealing with this themselves. "Hallowed ground" my ass.

[whathehell]

35. "Hallowed ground" my ass....Really?

Sounds like someone who did NOT have a loved one die in the attack.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. By that measure...

... every square foot of this continent is hallowed ground.

[whathehell]

50. Yeah

Whatever..:eyes:

[David__77]

37. The country of Iraq is "hallowed ground," blood-drenched from its martyrs.

Does that mean McDonald's can't build any restaurants there? Or what does it mean - this "hallowed ground" thing? Should they have turned the whole area into a park? How many city blocks does this "hallowed ground" extend? Long Island?

[whathehell]

49. As to Iraq, I would honor the wishes of their people....

As to New York, I would honor the wishes of their "martyrs".

In regard to the question of "how long", "how many blocks"...I think the people of New York have made their wishes, and the parameters of those wishes, clear...There is already a mosque four blocks away from ground zero...No one is asking for it to be removed.

[David__77]

54. Well...

I think your sentiment is good. Iraq, of course, is a different country with different laws, etc. I was sort of trying to raise the point that some are viewing a mosque or Muslim community center in New York City as a sort of "foreign" phenomenon. Muslims are a part of the US citizenry. And, in fact, Islam is equal to other religions under US law. I think that the idea of ghettoizing a religious minority is reprehensible. We must oppose religious bigotry. That said, I have no problem with ideologically criticizing religious movements that are backward. I appreciate that fact that there is modicum of liberal democracy in the US.

[whathehell]

62. Well, thank you...I appreciate the civilility of your tone. n/t

[Martin Eden]

34. "gigantic neon blinking sign target for domestic terrorists"

That is also my concern, and the only reason I think moving the facility elsewhere in Lower Manhattan might be a good idea.

Seriously, I think it very likely that sooner or later some RW nutjob group will deliver a truckload of excplosives to the front door at Park 51.

[Douglas Carpenter]

42. EXACTLY!! Just as George Wallace was from Alabama and spoke sense about why blacks didn't need

to go to the University of Alabama when there were plenty of other perfectly fine places they could have attended. But just like today, the P.C. crowd didn't understand that Alabamian didn't want it by huge margins in polls and that it was a delicate situation and some kind of compromise could have been found to move the black students to a less provocative area, surely.

My problem with it was that it was a gigantic neon blinking sign target for domestic terrorist, right wing nuts were going even crazier than usual because of all idiocy on radio and tv out there regarding liberals and Kennedy as president.

BTW:

The Quinnipiac University poll, released Thursday morning, found that 46 percent of Manhattanites support the 13-story mosque and community center, called Cordoba House. Thirty-six percent of Manhattan voters oppose the proposal and 18 percent are undecided.

Read more: http://dnainfo.com/20100701/manhattan/manhattanites-support-mosque-near-ground-zero-poll-finds#ixzz0x0lDEWTV

[Starbucks Anarchist]

56. +1.

[karynnj]

44. Why do you say that Dean lives in NYC?

Isn't he working with DFA from Burlington, VT - (His wife still practices in South Burlington = http://www.ucomparehealthcare.com/drs/vermont/S2.html )

The fact is that in MANHATTAN only 38% of the people were against it. In NYC, the people most against it were in Statan Island. Now, I bet if these broke it further by neighborhood, the resistance in LOWER MANHATTAN would be less - than say the Upper East Side.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[MadBadger]

48. self delete

[Starbucks Anarchist]

55. Large margins of people also oppose gay marriage.

So we shouldn't legalize that. :sarcasm:

[krabigirl]

59. Well, they have every right to protest it all day if they wish..but they have a right to build it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

61. Should the civil rights movement have avoided marching in Birmingham?

Because it would provoke the right wing?

[Warpy]

22. C'mon, Doc, you know better than that.

The mob will always be in an uproar over something and you could move it to Hoboken and they'd still be up an arms about it because, face it, it's a mosque and that means the people inside it all worship the wrong god and why aren't they good Protestants like real Americans?

They won't shut up and they won't go away and they're dead wrong and the worst thing anyone can do, ever, is cave to them.

There are times you have to point to the law and steamroll right over the mob. This is one of those times.

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. +1

[David__77]

24. He actually used the word "affront."

So he essentially agrees with Sarah Palin. Now he is talking about "moderate Muslims" as well. He is totally mirroring her message.

[JonLP24]

28. WTF???

This is disappointing.

[PopSixSquish]

33. You've Got to Be Kidding Me!

Come 'on Dr. Dean you know better...

[BAU]

38. The good Doctor

Dean is wrong. They should build it for the same reason John Adams defended the Red Coats. This is friggin' America and the day we let shit like this happen is the day Adams and the rest of the FFs roll over in their graves. Build the Goddam thing and it will never be news again.

[pnorman]

39. This must come as a GREAT embarrassment, to those who sneer at Obama as a...

...puppet of the DLC, as well as Corporate America. Rarely if ever do they fail to extol Dean by way of contrast, as an exemplar of a TRUE Progressive. Actually when this so-called "issue" first emerged, I was`privately hoping that Obama would manage to evade it. But no, he did NOT, and handled it with his characteristic "no drama Obama" style.

I've been of the "Dis-organized Left" since about 1948, and have become quite inured to some really NASTY insults & slurs, mainly of the red-baiting variety. Mr Gibb's inane comment, uttered no doubt in helpless frustration, irritated me. But it did NOT send me howling out in the street!

Pnorman, "Lapsed Anarchist" for Obama.

[BAU]

41. As well as a great embarrassment...

...for the Deaniacs.

[JonLP24]

43. I'm not embarrassed

I'm very disappointed. I'm thinking of getting rid of the quote in my sig line even though I agree 100% with it. Actually I will.

[whathehell]

51. Not for this Deaniac. n/t

[Fleshdancer]

52. It's not embarrassing to disagree with him

I don't know any Deaniac who expects to agree with him on every single issue.

[bigwillq]

53. I'm not embarrassed

I disagree, but I am not embarrassed. For him or for me. This is just one thing I disagree with Dean on. It happens. I still love me some Howie! :)

BTW, Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Ramulux]

45. God dammit

What the fuck is going on with this mosque business? Its literally turned people insane.

[still_one]

46. Thanks. I disagree with him, and personally believe he doesn't know the whole

facts, and is taking the MSM's word for it

What Mayor Bloomberg said encapsulates my views entirely

This is prejudice against Muslims pure and simple

It is equating all Muslims as "terrorists", and it is wrong

It has been done to me when I was growing up being Jewish, though I suspect most people are ignorant of the fact that there were hotels and other places where Jews were not allowed. After all they believed "jews crucified their god".

I don't see too much difference what is going on here, and that is sad

[krabigirl]

57. wow....

[Jefferson23]

58. What a horrible position for him to take, ugh. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. Reid had a bad reason for his statement. Dean is merely pathetic.

[JCMach1]

63. The center was intended as a 'political' gesture in part at least, no one should be shocked

that people have reacted politically.

It was also a big mistake for Obama to fall into the trap of what ultimately should only be a local squabble. Instead, with his office, he elevated it to a national issue.

I think Dean and Reid are essentially right. I essentially don't want Saudi money coming-in to build something near the WTC site. However, I believe it is a local issue. If the local planning authorities have approved it then... well...

We should all just STFU and move on.

[TheKentuckian]

66. Please, I'm sure there is all kind of Saudi money all over that you don't object to

Saudis own a huge chunk of America, the odds of their money not flowing through many businesses in the now "sacred ground" is low.

This is about the religious institution not money.

Dean is being a fuckwit and weak on basic American principles.