What Is It About 20-Somethings? Why are so many people in their 20s taking so long to grow up?

[groovedaddy]

This question pops up everywhere, underlying concerns about “failure to launch” and “boomerang kids.” Two new sitcoms feature grown children moving back in with their parents — “$#*! My Dad Says,” starring William Shatner as a divorced curmudgeon whose 20-something son can’t make it on his own as a blogger, and “Big Lake,” in which a financial whiz kid loses his Wall Street job and moves back home to rural Pennsylvania. A cover of The New Yorker last spring picked up on the zeitgeist: a young man hangs up his new Ph.D. in his boyhood bedroom, the cardboard box at his feet signaling his plans to move back home now that he’s officially overqualified for a job. In the doorway stand his parents, their expressions a mix of resignation, worry, annoyance and perplexity: how exactly did this happen?

It’s happening all over, in all sorts of families, not just young people moving back home but also young people taking longer to reach adulthood overall. It’s a development that predates the current economic doldrums, and no one knows yet what the impact will be — on the prospects of the young men and women; on the parents on whom so many of them depend; on society, built on the expectation of an orderly progression in which kids finish school, grow up, start careers, make a family and eventually retire to live on pensions supported by the next crop of kids who finish school, grow up, start careers, make a family and on and on. The traditional cycle seems to have gone off course, as young people remain un­tethered to romantic partners or to permanent homes, going back to school for lack of better options, traveling, avoiding commitments, competing ferociously for unpaid internships or temporary (and often grueling) Teach for America jobs, forestalling the beginning of adult life.

The 20s are a black box, and there is a lot of churning in there. One-third of people in their 20s move to a new residence every year. Forty percent move back home with their parents at least once. They go through an average of seven jobs in their 20s, more job changes than in any other stretch. Two-thirds spend at least some time living with a romantic partner without being married. And marriage occurs later than ever. The median age at first marriage in the early 1970s, when the baby boomers were young, was 21 for women and 23 for men; by 2009 it had climbed to 26 for women and 28 for men, five years in a little more than a generation.

We’re in the thick of what one sociologist calls “the changing timetable for adulthood.” Sociologists traditionally define the “transition to adulthood” as marked by five milestones: completing school, leaving home, becoming financially independent, marrying and having a child. In 1960, 77 percent of women and 65 percent of men had, by the time they reached 30, passed all five milestones. Among 30-year-olds in 2000, according to data from the United States Census Bureau, fewer than half of the women and one-third of the men had done so. A Canadian study reported that a typical 30-year-old in 2001 had completed the same number of milestones as a 25-year-old in the early ’70s.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/magazine/22Adulthood-t.html?th&emc=th

[patrick t. cakes]

1. This applies to 30 somethings too...

[phantom power]

2. "Adulthood, lack of jobs, and slippery definitions"

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/adulthood_lack_of_jobs_and_slippery_definitions/

[Aramchek]

3. look up Neoteny. We are evolving into permanent children.

[patrick t. cakes]

6. A trip to any local watering hole confirms this...

Many people don't move beyond a teenage mentality.

[seabeyond]

8. +1. nt

[kenfrequed]

41. This is more complicated than you think

The lack of entry level positions that have good benefits or pay enough to live independently as well as the inflated prices of real estate sort force people to live in less independent situations.

Honestly though, the idea of the nuclear family (or subatomic singles these days) being completely independent, is sort of an Americanism and it has always been sort of complicated. It may even be an artifact of mass consumerism, entertainment culture, and a holdover of colonialist cycle population motions. The norm in some European countries has been three generations living under one roof for a long time.

These sit-coms seem to make light of a phenomena that is only strange in contrast to the norm that we have invented. Is this cultural norm of ours a good thing? It is good for purveyors of the stuff of durable commerse. A new household requires a new copy of all the appliances and entertainment devices that the household that they came from held.

Is this change towards multigenerational living a preferred thing? Certainly there are social changes and sacrifices that need to be made. Social expectations may end up upended as the job market increases in difficulty and we move closer out of economic necessity.

[uncommon]

47. +1 - but people should have the option of living independently if they want to and many

do not have that option with the job market the way it is.

In my house, my brother lives with me - this is out of necessity as well as desire - it makes life affordable for us and more peaceful.

[noamnety]

63. Great post.

Sociologists have apparently confused adulthood with becoming a good capitalist cog.

Many cultures value living in extended families while we view it with disdain here (in the US and on DU). In one breath we mock adults who don't own their own place, and in the next we blame them for buying a place when they couldn't afford it. Their own damn fault if they get foreclosed on.

The underlying message is that if you have enough money you should be handing it over to mortgage companies to impress other people even if it's not necessary - and if you don't have enough surplus money for that, there's something wrong with you.

American culture values independence over community, we respect a 20 year old who lives alone more than we respect one who's forged a strong enough relationship with their parents that they can recognize mutual benefits to sharing resources and labor.

And then we wonder why we don't have a public health option, better benefits and safety nets, the things that some other countries take for granted. We perpetuate the exact values we claim to fight against.

[wickerwoman]

173. Nail on head.

Thanks for this!

[Aramchek]

88. I get what you're saying. But you must admit that evolution is pretty complicated.

[kenfrequed]

123. social evolution?

I don't think I completely understand what you are saying.

Yes the evolution of the construct and passage into adulthood is sort of strange, but really most of the symbolic rites of passage towards American adulthood are consumerist in nature:

At 16 you can drive with learning permit (lower if you have a farmers permit) which requires the purchase of a vehicle

At 18 you can smoke.

At 21 you can drink.

There are no actual rites of passage to adulthood, and though these may be arguably lacking in European cultures as well, there is not the same emphasis on buying your way to adulthood that there is here.

[Hello_Kitty]

93. Traditional multi-generational arrangements tend to oppress women.

Women and girls get stuck with all, or a disproportionate share, of domestic chores and care-taking roles.

[uncommon]

126. Amen to that.

[kenfrequed]

142. Uhm

I dunno about that, my reading is that women are actually more free in western European nations than here. Looking particularly at France and Italy I have see multi-generational households with no absolutes as to who ends up being the bread-winner in the home or what gender they are.

I would also point out that American nuclear families are no more liberating to women as they certainly have the freedom to go out into the workplace and make less than men, most western European countries while still not equal, are in better shape than the US in this regard, moreover the EU and individual countries are actually attempting to do something directly to address this problem.

[Hello_Kitty]

171. I'm not talking about breadwinning. I'm talking about domestic duties.

It's not uncommon for women to be bringing home the income AND being expected to do all the cooking and housework.

[kenfrequed]

174. I would have to see a study

And I still don't think that those women in the more progressive western European countries would trade places with sexist America for anything.

[Hello_Kitty]

180. Look at Italy

It's Exhibit A of what I'm talking about.

And if other Western European cultures are less sexist than ours I would surmise it has more to do with public policies than the fact that extended families live under one roof. Really, the countries that are the most repressive toward women practice the same thing.

[heavyweaponsguy]

219. Yep, a man can't wipe his ass without a woman!

:nopity: for you

[heavyweaponsguy]

216. Uh-huh

And guys just sit around all day playing video games and watching TV, right :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

231. In some cases, yeah, they do. Seen it with my own eyes. eom

[readmoreoften]

102. +1

[JNelson6563]

151. Bingo.

My kids live with me (age 19 and 21), my brother has stayed with me. I don't have a problem with hit, like having them around. I always thought the cultures that have family around were smarter than us in some ways. I think for one thing there would be a lot less lonely, miserable seniors in our society.

Julie

[Kievan Rus]

4. There are no entry-level jobs anymore

They flat out don't exist.

I kid you not, I saw a job online that was for a loading dock at a skyscraper in downtown Pittsburgh and paid only $8.25/hr. One of the prerequisites was "at least three years loading dock experience" or something like that. And professional jobs? Forget it. The requirements for those are even more absurd...and anybody that's recently out of college has next to no chance.

[Recursion]

11. Boomers should have planned their retirement better

If they weren't still holding onto those more senior jobs until we pry them out of their cold, dead fingers, we Xers could move up the ladder and these 20-somethings could move onto the ladder.

[DrDan]

27. footing the bill for the Xers years of college and the

delays in moving out on their own isn't enough of a sacrifice. Now the Xers want jobs handed to them by having boomers move into retirement earlier.

[Hello_Kitty]

32. College tuition got raised so Boomers could get tax cuts. eom

[DrDan]

34. so you think there was no sacrifice on the part of the paying parent?

even with a tax break?

[Recursion]

36. No idea; I payed for my own college. NT

[DrDan]

39. well . . . it really is not hard to figure out

[Divernan]

42. Your "college" didn't teach you it's spelled "paid", not "payed"?

You should sue to get a refund on your tuition.

[Recursion]

44. I don't remember a spelling section in college

I didn't sleep last night, dude; cut me some slack

[kenfrequed]

161. Trolling does give you slack

I'm sorry but you are fomenting a useless and absurd argument here. The reaction/counter-reaction generational debate that you are foisting on this board has actually dropped teh level of debate here considerably.


Please stop it.

[LanternWaste]

120. I imagine if your own personal anecdotal denies...

I imagine if your own personal anecdotal denies a generalized label from being applied to you, I would guess it applies to many other too, in effect deflating the concept of that generalized label. If that is the case, I imagine it would hold towards all the Madison Avenue crafted generalized labels of all demographics.

[WinkyDink]

178. Not enough: "paid."

[Recursion]

240. Nope. I gradually let it out, like rope.

My atrocious spelling when I'm in a hurry predated college, and spelling was never a part of the curriculum.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. My parents didn't contribute a dime toward my education.

Your middle class bias is showing.

[DrDan]

52. I have no problem in having helped my 2 kids with their college expenses

of course they are not so greedy as to call for boomers to quit and make room for their careers.

(I didn't realize that helping children through college was a middle-class thing.)

[uncommon]

58. It mostly is - poor people can't afford to help their kids pay for college.

Seems like it should go without saying.

My parents certainly couldn't afford to help me pay for college.

[DrDan]

66. I guess it is based on personal experience

I do know families that were low-middle or lower in terms of income and were still able to help in college expenses of their children.

It might have been junior college (leading to a state admission), but there was still financial assistance.

[uncommon]

68. I think this is a rarity --

with housing expenses what they are in my area, I am surprised any families without two very decent incomes can even pay the bills and put food on the table, much less pay tuition for their kids.

If you are living near or under the poverty level, forget about it.

[DrDan]

70. it is also a matter of planning

paying tuition out of a paycheck and saving for tuition are two VERY different things. 18 years of saving "a little a month" can go a long way.

[uncommon]

78. Indeed, but not far enough with today's tuition - and definitely not if you have a few kids.

I save about $80-100 per month aside from my IRA and it hasn't amounted to much in a year.

[DrDan]

86. I agree with your comment about tuition. I believe it has grown

a lot faster than anyone expected.

But . . . $100 per month for 18 years is over $20K without interest. That goes a long way in a junior college. The Florida pre-paid community college plan costs around $5700.

That can be a lot of money to many families. But over the course of several years, it can be possible.

[uncommon]

94. Maybe for community college, but that's for one child and doesn't take into account the fact

that a 2 year college isn't going to translate into some great job - the kid would have to transfer out to at least a state university, and by the time my 6 year old daughter is ready for college that will probably cost twice what it does now so she is looking at another $50K or so for 2 more years of school. This is assuming public college and no grad school.

For one kid.

Do the math here - for most people, this is not realistic.

[DrDan]

103. that is the point of the pre-paid plans

pay at today's rate.

Anyway - my point was that it IS possible for most families to offer some help to those that want to attend college. Sure - there will always be those that have nothing beyond basic living salaries.

But if parents could do nothing more than cover the first two years - that would be a good thing for a lot of students.

And I would not speak poorly of a community-college education. It can be a great start.

[uncommon]

110. Of course it's a good start - but it's not enough for kids who really want to get into good careers

that require substantial post-secondary education.

Look, I'm not saying that no one can afford to help their kids pay for college, but there are a lot of people who can't and I think you are underestimating how large a percentage of parents this is in reality.

[Recursion]

168. Per a thread I can't link to, 61% of Americans "always" or "usually" live paycheck to paycheck

It's not a pretty picture.

[Juche]

227. No it isn't pretty

We are a society that wants our cake and to eat it too. We want tons of fast food restaurants everywhere, but we also want people to be rail thin. We want supply side economics, but we also want the middle class to be stable. We want people to move out at age 18 and live independently, but we want to criticize those who go deep into debt to keep up with the Joneses. We want low taxes, but we want high services.

And to top it all off, we want people to put up with all this crap without showing any signs of neuroticism, depression or anxiety. God forbid all the mixed messages, shallow relationships and celebrity worship give you 'issues'.

We are a deeply fucked up society.

[DrDan]

246. and not getting better

how can it when the focus remains to manufacture overseas and outsource our professional jobs.

Can't base an economy on spending alone as much as our politicians would like to convince us.

[kenfrequed]

I came from a poor household

The idea of some kind of magical savings account that you can put together while growing up in poverty is damned near laughable if it weren't so tragic.

Rising tuition rates and a governmental shift from grants to loans has put many of us having to put off most major purchases. This is less the fault of the boomers and more the fault of financial organizations encouraging increases in tuition while covering the garaunteed government loans.

Starting wages have lagged when adjusted for inflation while tuition has gone up double digits every year well outside the standard inflation adjustments. Is it any wonder that it is getting harder to afford school?

It gets worse for working class and poor students as they cannot afford to take unpaid internships that are the doorway to middle class employment.

[uncommon]

95. This is another good point - my bf, who is from a well situated middle class family, is in a grad

program for his teaching certification, and cannot get a full-time teaching job without working several months for free in order to finish his program.

He is 30 years old - he can't afford to not work for months in order to do this. And he has had familial support all along.

Imagine trying to do this with no support system - this is the reality for many 20-somethings.

[DrDan]

121. let put the blame for this situation where it belongs - with the

"cut the tax" weasels (read GOP) who will not fund our public schools.

[uncommon]

127. Indeed, but it's all part of why people my age are having a hard time.

[DrDan]

134. EVERYONE is having a hard time

[uncommon]

141. Are you being argumentative for a reason? I know times are tough - the topic of discussion in this

thread is the trends that are happening for people in the 20s.

[DrDan]

143. and placing the blame on boomers

[kenfrequed]

150. One person threw out that argument

And I have not seen him post since. Skim upthread and take a look at the poster who did it. Have they magically reappeared to repeat or support the trollish argument they made. No.

Instead you have been arguing with people countering yoru counter to the 'blame the boomers' with 'blame the x'ers (or millenials or whatever).' Honestly it makes no sense.

[DrDan]

154. he/she has posted at least a dozen times

[uncommon]

157. I certainly never said that.

[DrDan]

160. my first post in this thread was in response to that contention

didn't say it came from you.

To counter that is being argumentative? Gosh - I think that kind of debate is what this place is all about.

[kenfrequed]

164. This is absurd

You and this person (see link below) are playing some kind of troll-baiting game here that is diminishing what should be reasonable discussion.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8999873&mesg_id=8999919

[Recursion]

166. Good lord people. It was a snarky post about the effects of a raise in retirement age...

...on younger workers. Calling me a troll, repeatedly, is uncalled for, because it's actually a valid point, even if I made it in a pissy way.

[kenfrequed]

169. Really?

So, starting a pointless flame war based on generational generalizations is what? Just clever and snarky?

I didn't notice anything that either of you said that would qualify as remotely amusing or informative.

[Recursion]

170. The *OP* is flamebait based on generational generalizations

(Well, the article it's quoting is, at least)

[Raineyb]

189. Meanwhile you make a broad brush stroke attack on all Gen Xers.

Your argument would be a lot less laughable if not for that.

[Mariana]

215. It is now, but college was a lot cheaper for the Xers.

Particularly for the older ones. Parents didn't have to be rich or scrimp and save for 18 years to help their kids go to college. College costs have increased much faster than inflation.

[Hello_Kitty]

59. Yes, it is a middle class (and above) thing. eom

[heavyweaponsguy]

221. Yeah right

I grew up eating dog shit and my Mother had enough pride for the life she created to help pay for college. Just because you didn't get it doesn't mean you should take it out on men.

[heavyweaponsguy]

217. Well ain't you a precious snowflake

You did it alllllll by yourself! :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

235. Of course not. I did it through the GI Bill and my own money.

Both my parents were dead by the time I finished college.

[Alcibiades]

82. Most other gen-x folks I know

Didn't have their college paid for by their parents: it was paid for with student loans, a trend that continues for students today.

To assert, in this economy, that Xers or anyone else expect to have a job handed to them is laughable. Folks are living longer and staying healthier in longer than in the past, and that's a good thing, but if younger people are not able to get good jobs and start families as a result, boomers complain of the indolence of younger generations. If they then see the younger generations ask boomers to retire so that they can enter the workforce, then they complain about being pushed aside. Once upon a time, boomers complained about the older generation, but now they have changed course and complain about the younger generations. What's the only constant here?

Me, me, me, me, me.

[DrDan]

89. but that seems to be exactly what post #11 (that started this discussion) is asking for -

"boomers - step aside and let me have your job"

"To assert, in this economy, that Xers or anyone else expect to have a job handed to them is laughable."


************************
(oops - initially misspoke - not the OP)
************************

[county worker]

104. I'm a boomer and I don't see the boomers on this board complaining.

You're the one complaining about boomers.


Until you learn to take responsibility for your life, life is going to suck for you.

[Ishoutandscream2]

130. +1. Never have I seen so much whining than by Xers

[Recursion]

133. Look, you face declining wages throughout your 20's and 30's

And be stuck below middle management because it's full of old people, who then take forever to retire, and then end up having to pay more in either FICA levies or taxes to finance their retirement that finally let you move up. We're not actually pissed at individual people older than us, we're pissed that as a cohort you guys saw this coming for years and apparently just kept hoping for the next bubble of whatever to finance your retirement.

[DrDan]

136. wrong - most of us boomers started our careers with pensions in the picture

[Recursion]

137. OK, that's a fair point

I've heard of these things you mention, these "pensions". They were known only to the Ancient Ones.

[DrDan]

139. artifacts of a previous time

[county worker]

147. We lost pension because of the decline of unions.

Many boomers had decent paying jobs in manufacturing plants. The corporations moved the plants to non-union states and those new workers did not have the benefits the first group had.

So the boomers in Michigan and Ohio lost their good paying jobs and had to take non union jobs.

Salaries and benefits declined for all of us.

[Recursion]

148. OTOH, I was in the South in the 80s, and we *really* needed those jobs we stole from you

And they were a whole lot better than the nothing that was happening before.

[county worker]

175. I understand. I had friends who moved north to get those jobs with benefits

They came from farms and could not pay the property taxes and left to work in factories in Ohio and Michigan.

The shame is that we compete with each other when we should have organized the South.

[elehhhhna]

182. oh eff off already. thanks in advance.

[Raineyb]

190. Really and I've never seen such a rotten sense of entitlement by Boomers. Followed by

incessant whining to boot.

[DrDan]

132. +1 - well said

[Recursion]

135. The article in the OP is "boomers complaining"

It's the same crap we've heard for years about how lazy and shiftless we all are and it really rubs us the wrong way because it was bad decisions made by this older generation that are screwing us over here.

[Alcibiades]

214. +1 well said

If you were born in 1946, you entered the job market at a time of solid economic growth and growth in real wages. Even the 1970s, which is often misremembered as a time of lackluster economic performance (mainly because it was a bad time for Wall Street, but it was not all that bad for wage earners, because wage growth kept up with inflation), was not terrible: the real incomes of men with high school educations but no college peaked in 1979, and has gone down ever since. Women's incomes have gone up, but mainly because they are working more hours.

People's incomes are path dependent: if you are well compensated in your first job, you will tend to experience higher wages for the rest of your life, even after controlling for other factors. Of course, it's a lot easier to simply ignore all this and blame younger people, which has the added bonus of making yourself feel special, because your own success was in no way the result of external factors, but your own special specialness, to which one feels entitled when one is a member of the most special generation.

[Alcibiades]

213. You're projecting

Actually I'm complaining about boomers complaining, and you're complaining about me complaining about boomers complaining.

I have taken responsibility for my life, thanks. My wife and I have worked hard to build a life together that does not suck, on our own, without help from our rather well-off parents, so when I see someone making sweeping generalizations about folks in my generation, many of whom are more subject to the vagaries of macroeconomic disequilibrium than my own little family, it makes me recall the lyrics to that song about boomers in Bye Bye Birdie:

Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They a disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?

[Kalyke]

97. "Handed" to them?

Xers don't want jobs "handed" to them - they have been training for these positions! It's not that they've been sitting around waiting for their rich uncle to get out of the poor house!

The poster above is correct: Older Boomers aren't retiring, allowing us 30 and 40 and 50-somethings to move up so that there is room for entry-level 20-somethings to have a position. We - whatever we are in the middle - are left at mid-level management if we're not tossed out.

[DrDan]

105. sure sounds like it to me - "boomers - please retire so I can have your job"

[Recursion]

108. Look, I didn't tell anybody to use their house as their retirement fund

The people who did that, and how now have to delay their retirement, are by that delaying my advancement. If a guy can't vent about that...

[DrDan]

115. so you hold a grudge against boomers that are trying to be fiscally responsible

and actually work to recover from bad financial decisions. They are in your way to fame and riches.


Why don't we just send them out into the wilderness and be done with them.

[Recursion]

122. I hold a grudge against a culture that convinced them we could all be independently wealthy

I'm not saying they have any better options than delaying retirement, I'm just pointing out it screws up the rest of us.

[DrDan]

131. I think you can credit the greedy corporations that decided that

doing away with funded pension plans was good for the bottom line. Retirement was in everyone's gunsight when pensions were a reality. Now to put together a similar retirement cushion is quite difficult for many - particularly with the instability of the market.

[Raineyb]

124. I'm paying for my own fucking college thank you very much.

And I've worked for every god-damned job I've ever had no matter how shitty they are. Usually it was the Boomers who had been in the place forever who took all the good vacation slots and wanted to the easiest jobs while getting paid more than us "newbies" to do the same job.

And then they project their selfishness onto everyone else. Perhaps if you didn't treat your children like objects to be worshiped you wouldn't have to worry about your kid having an overinflated sense of entitlement.

Isn't broad-brushing fun?

[DrDan]

138. as did most of the boomers I know

certainly paid my share.

But funny thing - I never blamed the preceding generation for career roadblocks I faced.

oh well - times a' changing.

[Raineyb]

188. Back when a person can pay their way through college with a minimum wage job.

Not to mention that college was low cost or in some cases FREE. BTW that shit can't happen now.

And I never said they were to blame for any career roadblocks. Why should I blame them? I always worked circles around them.

[krabigirl]

184. xers are not 20-somethings..more like creeping onto 40-something.

[DrDan]

245. this is in response to post #11 which introduced Xers into the thread

[alarimer]

199. These young people I have worked with have an overinflated sense of entitlement.

Kind of like the poster above.

[Chan790]

201. Ha...

We tend to be better at your jobs, smarter, more technologically-savvy and more productive than you. Yet, we're stuck behind you. You're damned right we think you should be pushed into retirement; if my boss makes me open his emails one more time, I may snap.

I think if he can't use his PC, he can't do his job and should be fired. I'd email his boss and tell her so but the senior VP can't read her own email either.

[Mariana]

202. This thread is about people in their twenties.

So why are you on it whining about Xers?

[DrDan]

243. responding to post #11 - which introduced Xers to the thread

[cemaphonic]

241. Xers?

The very youngest of Xers just turned 30, and the first cohort that had the name applied to them originally are in their mid 40s now.

Just sayin'

[DrDan]

244. this was all in response to post #11 which introduced Xers to the argument

[sinkingfeeling]

I planned very well. Retired from IBM with full pension at age 53 and am now happily

working on my second pension at a state university. Then I'll put off raking in my Social Security until later so that my benefits will be even higher. And all to screw over the Xers!!

[Recursion]

60. No, you did the absolute best thing for us you could:

You got the hell out of the regular workforce that we want to be in.

[sinkingfeeling]

69. No, I'm still in the workforce, 40 plus hours a week. And I'm going to stay here.

[Recursion]

73. You said you're teaching at a state college

Out of industry, into the public sector. Works for me.

[sinkingfeeling]

80. Didn't say that at all. I'm a systems programmer for the university.

[Recursion]

85. Ah. Stop hogging my job!!!

:evilgrin:

[MedicalAdmin]

114. You also got really lucky.

If you don't reaalize that your circumstances, background, and opportunity contributed to your "planning well" then you are not in touch with the reality of your life.

But your reality of life is not that of the gen X and Y and millenials. We will not be able to retire once, never mind twice. More power to you that you could, but why not retire and enjoy life?

[riverdale]

159. exactly.

No one starting out at IBM now has a shot at a pension. Times are different now.

[Codeine]

249. So full of yourself.

I'll never be able to retire. Nor will most of the young people I know. The Boomers made sure to close the door behind them.

[madmom]

74. Not all boomers are of retirement age. What would you have them do? We need to

pay our bills just as everyone else does. Do you honestly think if a "boomer" retires, they will hand that job over to an Xer? How naive, they will just make someone else work harder for the same wage, been there done that.

[county worker]

98. Did you forget the sarcasm smilie ?

[Recursion]

100. Mostly. I am pissed at people who thought their house would finance their retirement

Who now will have to work until they're 80, meaning they're holding up the rest of us from moving up.

[county worker]

125. The only person holding you up is you!

This is not a zero sum game. Jobs get created and jobs go away. Your attitude is the one thing holding you back.

[Codeine]

250. Right wing bibblebabble. nt

[laughingliberal]

162. Why would people not think that? Many in our parent's generation did just that.

They were either able to pay off their mortgages before retirement so most of the expense of housing was off their backs or they had enough equity to sell at a profit and downsize to a less expensive abode.

It seems many are just determined to blame us late boomers for the damned situation we're in now. We've spent our entire working lives in the Reagan nightmare of stagnant wages, increased demands for 'productivity,' while the cost of necessities like housing and transportation skyrocketed and the CPI formulas were refigured to hide the true cost of living, all the while paying an increased FICA to cover the generations ahead of us and, supposedly, build a surplus for our own sunset years. We were screwed by the same forces who will screw you when your day comes if they can. I imagine the meme for your generation's screwing could be how you all screwed off your 20's and 30's in leisure and should have started earlier. If it follows suit, no amount of protesting that you wanted to go to work but the jobs weren't there will convince the younger people you're up against.

[onpatrol98]

99. LOL!

This is so horrible....I'm trying really hard not to laugh.

:spray:

Maybe living longer and healthier is a better contributing factor.

[WinkyDink]

177. Not before Medicare, Sonny!

I retired early; just went for the humor.

[alarimer]

197. Don't blame the boomers

Blame corporations.

Enough of this bullshit. You are not entitled to any fucking job. People work because they HAVE to. The rug has been pulled out from underneath. They have been downsized or outsourced to death. Get over yourself.

[Statistical]

23. I have found (at least in the past) those "requirements" were very negotiable.

They tend to eliminate people unsure of their qualifications (exactly the people the employer isn't interested in).

I got multiple jobs requiring x years experience when I lacked it.

However now the problem is with 10%-16% unemployment those requirements are much more firm.

If a job wants 7 years .net experience with at least 3 years SSIS and half dozen exact qualifications odds are there are 3, 4, 12 people applying who have that exact skillset. If you don't have it well you are SOL.

[Recursion]

49. That's why I work for small companies

Avoid the unholy phalanx o HR and get hired directly by the tech team.

[cleanhippie]

75. I respectfully disagree.

I think there are (or at least were up until recently) plenty of low wage, entry level jobs. What I see to be the problem is that young folks realize very quickly that they cannot have the same lifestyle they were used to when food, clothing and shelter was paid for by parents.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong.

[Kalyke]

101. Close - but no cigar.

What they see is that their lifestyle will never be the same as their parents because of higher costs and stagnant wages.

It's not that they do not wish to work hard or think that they will be able to automatically come into the same purchasing power as their parents, it's that they think, even after 10+ years of working, they will NEVER have the same purchasing power as their parents.

...and that's just sad.

When are we going to have a REAL Tea Party and overturn the multi-national corporations as our forefathers did to the East India Tea Company?

[MedicalAdmin]

128. My dad didn't even graduate from high school

he makes more in retirement pay than I will EVER make on my best year. I KNOW my lifestyle will not be equal to his ever. And I don't resent that, but it is reality. My friends and I make due with what we have - we band together and try to make a life that doesn't suck, but that in reality has no capital growth or conservation behind it.

We are the new poor -- formerly the class known as middle.

[Luciferous]

83. Exactly. I graduated from college last year and even the entry-level

positions usually require 2 years of experience, and a lot of them start at less than 30,000/year. I haven't been able to find a job and I've been looking for about 20 months now. I'm starting to think that I wasted my time in college- maybe I should have went directly into the workforce.

[DatManFromNawlins]

117. This was true even before the economy went south

Employers don't want to take the time to train young employees. They expect you to clip on a badge and hit the ground running, for less comparative pay than true entry level employees 20 years ago.

[slampoet]

251. +10000

I once saw a job that asked for 4-6 years worth of experience in 19 different kinds of software and 5 of them had only been out of beta testing for 2 years.

[blueamy66]

5. Simple answer, without even reading the article....

THEIR PARENTS GIVE THEM EVERYTING!

[Still Blue in PDX]

19. Generalize much?

I agree that may often be the case, but there are plenty of 40-somethings and 50-somethings that don't have "everyting" to give them. Living with the parents is better than living on the street or with a bunch of roommates to be able to make the rent.

It's not all bad news for the parents, either. I would rather rent my kids' rooms to my kids than to work my 2nd job, but they apparently are overachievers!
:silly:

[patrick t. cakes]

25. I don't really see the 'problem' either

Why not keep family units together longer? Who takes care of one another better than family?
I don't see it as a necessarily negative trend

[Viva_La_Revolution]

65. +1

[blueamy66]

29. Not too much

No, living with parents isn't always better. What are they gonna do when their parents are gone?

Kids are pampered and babied and allowed to live at home wayyy too long. They can't pay rent for an apt, but they sure as shit can afford that $200 cell phone and that ipod and high speed internet, can't they?

Get out, get a job and grow up.

[Divernan]

55. Adult "kids" could get by sharing apartments. 2 Bedrooms/4 adults

I welcomed one of my kids back for 2 years while she worked part time and got her MBA degree. Within a month of graduation, she moved to NYC, where the jobs (at that time) were. She shared an apt. w/2 others for a year while working at temp jobs until she found a job in her field.

By contrast, a misguided friend has a 24 year old slacker/son still living at home. Washed out of local state university, then community college, then film school through sheer laziness. Always with the excuses and lies. Lives to party. Grandma bought him a car; daddy paid all the school costs, clothing costs, car insurance, so no student loans were sought. Works part-time as a pharmacy assistant and posts demeaning jokes/confidential medical information about his employer, customers and fellow workers. If his employer ever reviewed his Twitter/Facebook comments, the kid would be fired. Kid pays NO money to his Dad toward household costs. A little tough love might do this young man a world of good.

Oh, and there's always money for the very latest communication technology and picking up the tab for his freeloading friends at the local pubs - then comes crying to Daddy that he's bounced more checks.
Major fail.

[Hello_Kitty]

84. Let me guess, he's got ADHD and is on medication too.

That's his parents excuse for his fuckups and their failure to instill discipline in him.

Am I right?

[Divernan]

90. Nope. He's just the spoiled baby/brat of the family.

Odd thing is, he has an older brother with a learning disability, who has always worked his butt off. The older boy took 5 years to finish college, but immediately got a good job, moved to another city and lives on his own quite successfully.

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

233. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blueamy66]

153. That's what I am talking about.

Your daughter's situation is sooo different. You should be proud.

My Dad paid my way and my brother's way thru life. My brother drank himself to death at 35. Me, I am all on my own. Dad died and now I have to be an adult. He didn't do me any favors by not making me be self-sufficient. And these parents that let their 20-something year old "children" live at home rent-free aren't doing their "children" any favors either.

[Divernan]

192. You've had it rough but I'd say you are a survivor.

Just like that family I described. One brother is doing just fine, despite his learning disability. The other is living a high risk lifestyle on his foolish Father's dime. Two cases of nature, not nurture.

Good luck to you - actually good luck to us all in these difficult times.

[blueamy66]

205. Thank you.

It means alot.

[Still Blue in PDX]

191. Like I said, my kids are apparently overachievers. nt

[Ikonoklast]

33. Nonsense.

I have two children in their twenties living with me, they both work full-time and go to school full-time. They have little money for anything besides tuition and transportation. They help ME out around the house, keeping things clean, mowing the lawn, all the things I cannot do as I am on the road constantly.

I give them shelter, that's it. They help me pay the electric and cable bill.

Neither one could afford to live on their own, and I like my kids, like having them around.

[Recursion]

64. It's kind of sad that our culture looks at staying with your family as a "failure" NT

[Ikonoklast]

72. My aged parents told me if I ever sold the house, after the kids moved away

that they would want me to come live with them, instead of getting my own place. They have tons of extra room.

It's not a money issue, it's just that me having a place to sleep in only once or twice a week seems such a waste.


But, I guess my family is weird. We all get along just fine, and enjoy each other's company.

[Hannah Bell]

172. +100. it's the historical norm rather than the exception. and more ecologically sustainable.

[blueamy66]

158. What would they do if you weren't there to help?

just asking

[Ikonoklast]

185. Haven't the foggiest.

Just guessing, my daughter would move in with her BF, as he owns his own home, and my son would get an apartment with his GF.

Both would end up spending more money as a result, in rent, commute, etc., and quite likely their schooling would end up being delayed or put on indefinite hold.


But I think you got it backwards...without my children living in my home, I would never be able to keep things up as I am so seldom there to take of everything myself.

They are the ones helping me.

They do the shopping, the paying of bills, my banking transactions that I can't do on-line, and so on.

[blueamy66]

206. That sounds like a great arrangement.

Bur I'm talking about a different thing.

I'm gonna quit now....this hits too close to home for so many...in so many different ways...

[Tsiyu]

242. I'm sorry for what happened to you

But I'm still going to help my grown kids, and I don't mind if they live with me "rent-free" occasionally.

That's because my kids have helped me financially.

As for help with college: Ha!

The oldest two did it all on their own (one a valedictorian, other Masters, magna cum laude), my daughter did two years on her own but just received a $100,000+ scholarship through her own hard work.

Next kid paid for one year college, is now musician, living with friends.

Next kid has dad paying for college but works and lives with roommate and will graduate in Dec.

Its ridiculous in this economy to expect people not to try to pool resources. How much stress are we supposed to heap on people, because they're not "good enough?"

I'm sorry you were left alone, but not all families are that way, and I don't think sharing housing and other essentials of life is irresponsible in this day and age.

[uncommon]

50. Hahahahahahahaha. That's hilarious. My parents never gave me anything.

I had to work for everything I ever had, long before I left for college.

Getting through school with no financial or moral support left me with rough credit and a huge debt load for the amount of money I was making, the only jobs I could get for years were close to minimum wage (or temporary jobs).

I never had to move back in with my parents (not that they would have let me) but the rest of that sounds like my life and I have done nothing but work my ass off.

[no limit]

7. This 20 something that never took a penny from parents once I got a job

and have lived on my own since I graduated high school doesn't really agree with the premise of the OP.

Sure, there are many 20 somethings (and 30 somethings) that fall in to that. There are alse a lot of 20 somethings that don't.

[seabeyond]

13. the article is clear it is a larger number than the past, not ALL. i hear ya

not wanting to be put in that group, especially when you did the work and accomplished.

my kids see it. i am clear i am not supporting them and they had to start young saving for when they are out there. we work on this issue as they age, while in house. right now 15 and 12, we talk about it and see example.

[noamnety]

92. "I am clear I am not supporting them"

What would you like them to do when you are older and they are adults, if an economic crisis happens to you?

[seabeyond]

96. how much ime do you have to banter this back and forth? because this is not a sentence here and

a thought there.

[noamnety]

113. today I have time.

Where I'm coming from:

My parents always made it pretty clear they would be a safety net for me. I left home at 16, they still supported me til I was 19. Since then I haven't asked for help from them except for one loan (house downpayment) that I paid back with 7% interest. I am privileged that I had a safety net, but it didn't spoil me by making me too lazy to go out and find a job or take care of my responsibilities. It just reduced stress in my life because I knew if I was fired at least I would have a place to stay.

Same with my daughter, now in her mid20's. She's always had my house as a backup if she couldn't swing it. She lives in another state, sharing a house with 3 other people. Having that safety net didn't make her unable to move out. I'm glad she knows she won't be homeless though if something happens.

My husband, he lived at home til his mid20s I think, through college and even after he had a decent job. I personally benefited from that because it meant that he had some savings when we got married. A lot of people on DU would have mocked him for living at home at that age, called him names and such. But I don't see why they would have preferred that a landlord or bank got half his paycheck during those years. How would giving a bank his paycheck make him a better person or make him more adult?

Now that his mother is in her late 60s and his father has passed away, even though we live an hour away, he drives out almost every weekend to visit her, do her yard maintenance, fix her computer, and a thousand other things she has a hard time dealing with. I like our privacy and wouldn't feel completely comfortable if she lived here ... but all the same when she broke her ankle a couple years ago I made a point of telling my husband that if he felt she needed to stay with us for an extended amount of time while it healed, that was fine. And if/when she can't live alone, if he wants her to move in here, I'll help make that happen.

I'm just suggesting that we shouldn't be too stern about lecturing our kids that we aren't their safety net because some day we may need them to be ours.

[seabeyond]

163. lol, and i spent hours making gr chili soup and now have to pick up kids, first day back

i agree with all that you say. all of it. hands down. no arguing. i, too, was blessed with a safety net. always saw it that way and often spoke out loud how thankful i was for it. i also was taught a within sense of responsibility in taking care of myself. it benefited me, i learned it well and served me on my journey of young and single.

my kids have been taught the same. they already are aware they are lucky enough to have a safety net, we started when they were babies. and as they got older and were able to earn money and the money received from xmas and bdays, it goes into the bank. they have come to realize things arent so important, and dont have the need to buy. this is taught. they understand they are not entitled and they know that the real world is not so easy, so they better do all they can in the security they have at home and then later in college.

my oldest was talking about it yesterday while i was cutting his hair for first day of school. he was telling me each step of freedom/responsibility he was going to enjoy step at a time and not look to the future, but enjoy the present.

on the other hand

how many people do you know who were taught the same and they cling to the safety net without effort on their part, feel entitled to everyones saftey net and don't pull their weight, wringing people dry.

i have a brother raised by the same parents that have been taking since he left the house and still, at 50, feels he is entitled to what others have, simply because of unconditional love. he has raised his three kids the same.

my father has lived in hell, as did my mom while she was alive, because of this attitude. and that is a huge ass no.

it is another lesson my kids watch, the people that should have money, but dont, spending carelessly and needlessly and then asking for help as we weigh whether we are willing to spend $1.50 on a coke on any given day. or buying plain white tshirts for school because i dont want to spend 30 dollars on a shirt for the boys.

that is more what i am talking about.

[Warpy]

9. The timetable isn't changing, Robin, the economy did

Back when I was 18 and I launched myself away from my crazy making parents like I was shot out of a cannon, a wage just above minimum allowed me a cruddy one bedroom apartment, adequate food, a visit to a doc when I got really sick, and a jalopy. I could even afford to take my 2 week vacations if I wasn't particular about where I took them.

Today that wage won't supply a safe roof, at all, or enough for decent nutrition, or any health care, or a jalopy unless that jalopy is also one's residence. That's what changed, sunshine, not the kids. They'd love to be out of Mom's hair and out from under her thumb and living in squalor while they learn how to make their way in the world. They just can't afford it.

People at both ends of the working life spectrum are the ones being hammered by Reaganism's end game. The young are suffering from having no experience and no entry level jobs. The older are suffering from those actuarial tables carried around by people in their mid 30s that say they're no longer cost effective. The people didn't change. The economy that sustained them got destroyed.

This article misses the mark on so many levels it's going to be a hard one to live down.

[Radical Activist]

16. Good post. n/t

[EFerrari]

18. I was thinking the same thing. n/t

[Better Today]

26. Exactly right. I know quite a few 50 somethings having to move in

with their 30 something kids, or as was the case for me; my 20 something moved back in for a year so she could help me keep the house by paying rent here instead of at an apartment. It didn't work out, in that even after another year there are no jobs for me and she can't put herself through her masters and pay full mortgage on my home, groceries, etc, but bless her heart she tried for my sake, not hers.

[txlibdem]

51. Right on!

The wealthy a-holes want us to be divided, to be constantly bickering amongst ourselves, to always blame someone in a bad situation (social darwinism says they made bad choices so screw them). What is so sickening isn't that the Republicons think that, it's that such a large number of Dems think that way.

Just remember that your success in life is the culmination of hundreds if not thousands of lucky breaks you got, breaks that some others didn't get.

[Hannah Bell]

106. +100.

[MedicalAdmin]

146. Bam.

Bullseye.


Horrible freaking article that totally misses the boat.

[Starry Messenger]

179. Thank you!

[peace frog]

10. Young people grow up as they must

given the circumstances of their life. As an example. my 20-something daughter is living at home after losing her full-time call center job to an off-shore facility. To get on with her life as an adult, she is training for a career in the medical industry in hopes of becoming gainfully employed next year. But this is Florida and there's no guarantee a job will be waiting for her at the end of her program of study, so she may be living with me longer than she hoped to do. However, she had been living quite indpenedently up until she lost her employment.

My husband and I got full-time jobs that paid a living wage right out of high school, settled down and had a family young. Was it because we were inherently more mature than are my adult children? No, we were simply responding to the necessity of our life circumstances, which was to grow up quickly in order to accept the responsiblity required to work a full time job and raise a family. I have no doubt my duaghter would be doing the same, had she full time employment that paid a living wage.

[gratuitous]

12. Well, two sitcoms - one even on a network - certainly signals a cultural change

Because as we all know, before nowadays, young people never ever moved back home because they couldn't find a job. Well, except for every decade since people lived long enough to see their offspring grow to maturity, but never mind that. There's an article to write, and a thirtysomething writer has to appease a fortysomething editor, so let's do a little idle twentysomething bashing.

[Radical Activist]

14. Boomers won't/can't retire.

There aren't many good, stable jobs out there. Short-term jobs are what's available to people in their 20's.

[Still Blue in PDX]

21. So it's not just me?

At 55 and with 37 years with my employer, I feel like I should be planning my retirement, at least from one of my jobs! Ain't gonna happen, though, in the foreseeable future.

[Radical Activist]

30. It's absolutely not just you.

It's a slinky effect. People over 50 had their retirement savings wiped out so they have to keep working. Which means a 28 year old with a masters degree has to keep serving coffee. It's a bad deal all around.

[laughingliberal]

40. Absolutely 100% correct. I see young people on here who seem to be OK with the possibility that

SS benefit age would be raised. They cheer this on with the idea that they don't want to pay for 'some old fuckers' retirements.' Some of them obviously can't see the deeper ramifications to their lives if this happens. One of the problems with youth is a decided inability to evaluate a plan for unintended consequences. One of the advantages age and experience has given me is the ability to look at a plan that sounds good and ask myself what the plan does when we scratch the surface.

[Recursion]

109. Hey, several of us young hooligans are complaining in this thread....

....that the 60-somethings aren't retiring yet and that we want them to.

[laughingliberal]

118. I understand a lot of younger people would like the boomers to retire and get out of the way.

And, for good reason. My point was that I've seen several on DU who are all OK with the SS benefits being cut for those of us in our 50's. They don't get it that they're working at cross purposes with this. There is no way a great numbers of us who lost our savings and the value of our homes are going to ever be able to stop working if the SS benefit age is raised or the benefit amounts are cut.

The people in our government who are pushing for this do not care if we starve. And they do not care if you do, either.

[Recursion]

129. Don't I know it

But, just like the Boomers who can't retire, this Xer is stuck with the unavoidable economic logic of his situation. I'm lucky I'm in the smallest cohort of the postwar era, in a lot of ways (if Social Security still exists in 30 years, there will be plenty of millenials working to pay for me).

Then again, maybe this whole setup was made to prevent intergenerational solidarity.

[laughingliberal]

145. I think any wedges they can drive between people of the working class (the bottom 98%) suits them.

The rather hateful posts I see here from some younger members saying they don't want to pay into FICA so 'all those old fuckers can have comfortable retirements' (I suppose 'comfortable' is defined as able to avoid starvation) are, obviously, being made by those who do not realize the detrimental effects it will have on their lives. For one thing, the longer it takes to get us out of the way, the longer it will take them to get on a career path leaving far too few years to build up a decent salary and leaving their contributions to FICA shorter than they would have been meaning their benefit when their time comes will not be as much as it could have been.

I'm well aware most think any effect this might have on them is so far in the future, they have plenty of time to turn it around. I wasn't always in my 50's, you know. I can attest to the fact that the 1983 'fix' to SS did not alarm me at all even though it did raise my benefit age-back then I never thought I'd live this long. Believe me, I wish now I had been paying more attention.

[MedicalAdmin]

156. Amen.

We're all in this together ... unless someone posting here is a member of the billionaires boys club.

But what do we do about it? What is a solution.

[Greyhound]

15. Probably as many reasons as there are 20-somethings, but at least some are

looking at a world they had no say in creating and no desire to participate in.

Do you devote your one precious life to killing and stepping on others to grab what you can get while you can, or do you become a social pariah by contesting it?

[raouldukelives]

45. Preposterous!

Nothing a haircut and stint in the military wouldn't cure.

[Greyhound]

77. LOL! Yep, more of the change we keep hearing about.

:rofl:

[Taitertots]

17. The jobs and affordable housing simply don't exist

This is simply blaming the victims of economic realities.

[NeedleCast]

20. considering some of the basis, it's not all that surprising

People are taking longer to finish college which probably accounts for much of the falling behind on Milestone 4 (becoming financially independent). Fewer people in western cultures now view marrying and having a child as part of their life goals. I completed (high) school and left home at age 18 and was financially independent by age 20 but at 36 have not married (although that'll probably happen soon) and have no intention of having children.

[Hello_Kitty]

22. Typical NYT article taking a few anecdotes of affluent people and extrapolating them to everyone

Not a single working class person was interviewed for the piece.

[Demit]

35. I do believe they profiled a black woman who started sweeping stores at age 8.

Then got a job as a receptionist & is hoping to finish college. Read it again.

[LibertyLover]

24. Well, according to that timeline, I didn't become an

adult until I was 50, since that's when I brought home my adopted daughter. :)

[kctim]

28. No need to face the real world

when you have been taught to believe someone else always owes you what you think you really deserve.

[heavyweaponsguy]

224. ???

Not being able to find a job when there's 30% unemployment, while being constantly assaulted by all the Galts who are superior because they could afford a house in their 20s is not facing the real world?

[kctim]

247. No, thats not facing it at all

that is making excuses so that one can justify not leaving the comfort they have become dependent on. Take the job they can get, instead of waiting for the job they think they are owed. Stop worrying about the "Galts" and start working for themselves.

[wickerwoman]

252. Total BS.

There is no "job they can get" for a lot of people. I spent most of the last year applying for grocery checkout, retail and warehouse jobs (with an MA and ten years work experience in management) and not even being called in for interviews. I had HR people tell me to my face that they wouldn't consider me because I was obviously overqualified and would "get bored". And even if I had gotten a few of those jobs, I still wouldn't have been able to move out on my own making $8.25 an hour.

80% of new businesses fail, and those are the people who can scratch up the capital to start one in the first place. What am I supposed to make that can compete with third world workers who get .25 an hour? What am I supposed to sell that can compete with (insert Walmart-esque mega-chain here?) All of the new innovations are in bio-tech, computer science, etc. and I don't have $100,000 to get a degree in any cutting edge areas, even assuming I had the aptitude.

But yeah, keep on blaming the victim and pretending the game isn't rigged while our country circles the drain. You've got yours so why worry about it?

[HughBeaumont]

31. Reagan's Lil' Dumplins took all the jobs, took all the wealth, had all the sex, did all the drugs,

conducted costly wars that made no sense, ran up the tab, killed pensions & foisted the 401k scam on us, slashed taxes for the rich, slashed wages for everyone else, shifted all the risk, built the moat . . .

. . . and left the late Boomer/Busters, Gen X, Millennials and Twitters with the BILL.

This isn't new. I couldn't leave home until I was 29. If I did, unless I lived with three other friends, there'd be no way I could afford an apartment, utilities, groceries, automobile, etc. I was stuck on the launch pad from the time I was 21 - that was 1990 to 1999. Only in the late part of that period was I able to save up enough money to finally get a house, which I'm still in today.

Opportunities for the young . . . they just aren't THERE. There aren't any straight-from-high-school living wage jobs like there were in the 80s. Lack of entry level jobs, combined with stagnant wages and boomers not able to retire will lead to a logjam.

[NashVegas]

37. Sociologists Are a FAR More Recent Phenomena Than Multi-Generational Families In One Home

The nuclear family was a recent development, a result of Westward expansion + the automobile.

Are today's 20-something's less emotionally mature than they were in the 1910s? I don't know. They might be. But I do know that we have less places for today's young adults to expand TO.

We can talk about savings until the cows turn blue, but that won't change the fact that housing and EVERYTHING ELSE involved in living expenses has shot through the roof while wages and salaries for the lower 70% have remained stagnant.

This has little to do with child-rearing and genetics, IMO.

[MisterP]

38. it's quite economic: the 20something floor managers that can make enough money

live on their own and have healthy, independent lives; so in this case any alleged cultural shift in the age of adulthood may just be an expression of the economic slump of 2001-08 and the Great Recession of 2008-

another factor is that, well, every generation since the 1830s has deemed their successors lazy wastrels

then, again there are actual man-children like this guy (note: many pages on this wiki are extraordinarily NSFW, even for the internet)

[Tobin S.]

43. I didn't start making decent money until I was 28

I certainly tried, though. I went to college for two years on loans and that didn't work out due to circumstances beyond my control. So I hit the work force. I worked in fast food, as a printer, and in a machine shop. None of those jobs paid more than $7 an hour and I couldn't get a job anywhere else until I started driving a truck for a living at 24. It still took 4 years before I started to make enough money to live independently if you don't count tooling around the country for a month at a time in a truck living independently. My mailing address was still my parents' place.

I am very thankful to my folks for helping me out during that time. If I ever have children I will do the same thing for them if it's needed.

[NoNothing]

46. Nobody has brought up the obvious:

1. College has become nearly mandatory with the demise of decent-paying low-skill jobs.
2. College costs have inflated well beyond any actual increase in value.
3. As a result, huge numbers of the "best and brightest" are graduating into a weak economy with absolutely crushing debt loads - which cannot even be discharged in bankruptcy! When student loan payments alone are a significant chunk of take-home pay, that leaves little room for things like a house or a child.

For you oldsters who can't identify, imagine starting out your adult life with a house payment, before you ever owned a house, and that you couldn't borrow against, built no equity, and basically couldn't be discharged under any circumstances.

[uncommon]

54. Well said.

[Greyhound]

76. Student "loans" are nothing but indentures to the corporations that receive this welfare.

Of course "nobody could've predicted...":eyes:

[Recursion]

107. And we require bachelor's degrees for jobs that have no business requiring a bachelor's degree

Basically if you're going to sit at a desk, you need a Bachelor's. That's absurd.

I've seen ads for a web programmer -- a web programmer, mind you, the very simplest kind of programming -- that ask for a BS in Computer Science.

Someone with a BS in Computer Science can write an operating system. You don't need that to program a damn website.

[uncommon]

112. Amen - this is one of the worst trends right now and it is killing the economy bc we are loading

young people with massive amounts of debt for an education they don't need and many do not even want.

[laughingliberal]

165. There is a segment of the economy this works very well for.

It really is time for all of us in the bottom 98% to quit fighting among ourselves (old/young, middle class/poor, healthy/disabled) and start fighting those who are benefiting from screwing all of us.

[Juche]

228. That education has value outside of job training

People with more education are more likely to vote, follow a doctor's orders, be employed, stay out of legal trouble, etc.

I don't know how much is cause or effect, but extra education almost always leads to several benefits for the individual & society as a whole. Even if the person doesn't need the education to get a particular job.

[NashVegas]

186. I Never Took a Computer Course In My Life

And was able to write a Cold Fusion back-end that included multiple user, multi-level security, databased style sheets, and crowd-sourced applications.

It's all a load of shit.

[county worker]

119. Us oldsters had problems too.

My dad made $60 a week at his peak. I had two brothers. My mom worked. I started working when the summer before the fifth grade. I'm 64 have haven't stopped working yet and probably won't for 6 more years. Out of high school I was a grocery store department manager. I got drafted and sent to Vietnam. I was in and out of college from 1968 and finally graduated in 1979. The last four years I was in school I was married and worked full time. Over the years I have been divorced, bankrupt, drug and alcohol addicted, homeless, lost quite a few jobs, remarried and now I'm finally able to live a little more comfortable.

So I laugh my ass off when some 20 something tells me I should go into poverty so he/she can have my job. No 20 something could even do what I do because you couldn't get the experience I have in that short of a timen period.

What this all tells me is that many young people think life owes them happiness or something. You better get over it and learn to take the knocks!

[Steely_Dan]

53. Funny You Should Bring This Up...

I got remarried about five years ago. Never in my wildest dreams did I think that at this point in my life (age 57) I would be facing the economic issues I am facing. I had a home in Santa Barbara, raised my kids and felt it was time to move on from a loveless relationship.

I fell in love...never thinking that I actually marrying her entire family. One of her daughters was already married but the husband was dealing drugs, making tons of money. He "got religion" and quit dealing. Of course, with all the money they were used to receiving, they bought cars, a home and had two kids. Once the money stopped, guess who had to step in to save their home, etc. etc. My wife's son got a girl pregnant and they got married. Of course, they had no resources so we had to step in and support them. The third child seemed to be doing okay.

Over the past five years the son had another child and so did the daughter. We have shelled out over $50,000.00, which depleted our entire savings. The money went for everything you could imagine that both families needed. Food, gas money, mortgage payments, diapers, car payments....etc. etc.

Why didn't I stop it???? Simple. I loved my new wife and I couldn't say no to her....which means we couldn't say no to them. All this time, MY children are doing very well for themselves. One is in graduate school and the other is married and employed and will wait to have children. What happened here? I have to be careful not to compare MY children with hers.

We are now struggling to keep our home (in the middle of a loan modification request...Very scary). The irony of course, is that we spent all of our money saving her children (and her grandchildren) from financial ruin and now WE are the ones who will probably go down in flames.

Do I sound bitter? You bet I am. But alas, I cannot say anything because when I do, it causes my wife and I to argue. So I keep my mouth shut while my world crumbles around me. I spent 30 years paying a mortgage on time...all my bills on time and now my credit rating is in the dumper (for the first time) and I have no idea what will become of my new wife and I. The kids (now that they are on their feet) have offered to take care of us. Sorry...I have too much pride I guess. Personally, I could never accept help from my (step) children.

My wife and I have talked about this...as you might imagine. We don't know how much of this was due to our inability to say no and how much is just a terrible economy. It is hard to be upset with the kids when they cannot find work and their prospects are (were) terrible. Yet, they seem to suffer from arrested development. I cannot recall EVER having to beg money from my parents when I was starting out. I didn't have my first child until we (my first wife and I) were financially stable and could afford a family. Is it a matter of how each set of children were raised...one set being responsible and the other set being completely unprepared for the "real" world?

I tried everything I could to prevent this from happening to my wife and I. I made statements to all of the children that support would stop on "X" date. I warned my wife on several occasions that we were slipping into poverty. It did no good. My wife tells me that I would do the same thing if it were my own children. It is hard to argue with her concerning that, because I'm not sure what I would do.

I remarried because I wanted the "golden" years of my life to be peaceful and without the stresses I faced during my energetic years. I now find myself under heavy anxiety with no clue as to where we will end up.

Sorry...I just had to get this out. I certainly couldn't have this (detailed) discussion with my wife.

Thanks for listening.

-Paige

[uncommon]

56. I have several clients filing for bankruptcy bc of the financial assistance they have given their

children --

one because they took out a second mortgage to pay their 24 year old daughter's cancer treatment bills so she wouldn't start out her adult life in crushing debt;

one with over $100K in student loan debt they cosigned for kids who can't pay it back and now they can't afford their other bills;

many others who claim their adult children as dependents because they are still supporting them.

Hang in there.

[Steely_Dan]

61. Yeah...I was thinking...

The one thing I try to remind myself of is that we are actually better off than many others. Things could be worse. Thanks for the encouragement.

[MadHound]

57. Part of it stems from parents not giving responsibility to their kids.

This is something I've noticed with kids in their teens and early twenties, they are being shielded from responsibility by hovering parents.

I have a nephew who doesn't drive. It's not like he can't, or is afraid to, he just doesn't like doing so. So he is ferried all over the city and state where he lives. His sister gets the same treatment. When I turned sixteen, I knew how to drive and was expected to use the car in order to transport myself, or better yet, go run errands for the folks.

I've seen far too many helicopter parents who hover over every little thing their child does in order to make sure that all turns out well. The trouble is, kids need to learn how to fail, and how to pick themselves up after failing and move on. I think this is happening less and less.

[Hello_Kitty]

67. I think that's the key.

Living with your parents at any age isn't an indication of immaturity or irresponsibility on its own. But if you're an adult living at home and Mom is cooking and cleaning for you and doing your laundry and your parents are taking care of basic life functions for you that you should be handling yourself, then it's a problem.

[heavyweaponsguy]

222. Why is it a problem?

Some people get their house clean out of self-respect, not because they expect a payment.

[Hello_Kitty]

236. Whose self-respect are we talking about? eom

[snot]

62. Parents' attitudes seem to have changed.

When my sibling and I turned 18, we were told we'd have to pay rent if we wanted to continue to live at home. We didn't really want to, so we lived in inexpensive locales and took low-wage jobs in restaurants or offices, even though we were getting/had degrees from Ivy League schools. This was during the "stagflation" years, when the economy wasn't as bad as it is now, but unemployment was high and wages weren't -- my first full-time job out of college paid $4,000/year.

I do think things are much worse now; but I understand this trend of kids staying with their parents longer has been going on for a while.

I.m.h.o., it's not necessarily bad for kids to stay with the parents longer; but I think it's reasonable for there to be concern about it in some cases.

[cleanhippie]

71. I think it has something to do with the fact that every generation gets it a little bit

easier.

I certainly did not have it as bad as my parents did. My parents did not have it as bad as their parents. And so on, and so on.

Technology and increased wealth has generally made our lives easier, we have to work less to get more. Many kids grow up without really having to work to get things.

Just my opinion based on observation.

[Greyhound]

152. That isn't universal or even true. If you were born after 1965 you are probably never going to have

it as good as your parents, and if you were born after 1980 the odds are even worse.

Stress, hours worked, number of workers in the household, and costs of necessities have all steadily climbed. Working conditions, financial and job security, and standard of living have all fallen. Then there's the overall decay and neglect of common assets that we depend on to remain a nation.

[cleanhippie]

155. Ok, we can disagree.

Like I said, it is only my opinion based on my observations from my perspective.

[Uben]

79. Look at what they have to work with....

.....opportunity is everywhere! We have given them many global tools to work with, global recession, global high unemployment, global warming, wars, mega-corporations......who could ask for more? Now, you'd figure those whippersnappers could take some of these assets and turn em into billions!

[proteus_lives]

81. Simple. There are no fucking jobs.

I'm 27 and I scrap by with freelance and part-time jobs.

I'm still searching for a good full-time job three years after getting out of college.

I live and survive on my own because my parents TAUGHT me about money.

I don't think parents teach their kids about money anymore.

[Recursion]

87. Not to quote inane self-help books, but "Rich Dad Poor Dad" applies here

In families with money problems, money is usually a source of stress and shame and so it's not something kids grow up being comfortable talking or even thinking about. I know it took me years to get over that.

[JVS]

91. 10 years of a lackluster economy followed by an economic collapse.

[DatManFromNawlins]

111. Most are still waiting for their parents to grow up

[Raineyb]

116. Has the NYT not been paying attention to the sinkhole that is the economy?

Who the hell can live on their own when they can't find a fucking job?

[ecstatic]

140. The shift is because their parents are far richer than them

and have enough room in their homes to accommodate stragglers.

I have a 23 year old brother who I refer to as "the golden one" because he continues to be spoiled by my parents. He is just now thinking about college but he is in no rush. He has two cars, one of which the payment is over 500 a month.

Also, we have a lot more comforts/distractions nowadays which delays the growing up process.

[Bluenorthwest]

144. We have no jobs and no culture left

[slackmaster]

149. I'm 52 but look much younger, and often can't understand what they're saying in slang

They say shit like "Necktie fellow want good woojie?", I respond with something like "What?", and they say "Necktie-fellows, you carry dead chuck-chuck. Wait-lady, she make foulupgoweewee" and look at me like I'm from another planet.

:crazy:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

167. In Mexican culture, children often live with parents or grandparents

When they get out on their own, they return the favor by letting their parents live with them

But hey, if it's not the typical 1950s American family, that kid must be a lazy bastard, right?

We have strong families that are closely knit. It's not better or worse but it is different and I get tired of being expected to abandon my culture because it's not what nostalgic boomers remember.

[Arugula Latte]

194. I'd say that's the norm in MOST cultures of the world.

[Hello_Kitty]

203. And it functions on the unpaid and involuntary servitude of females. eom

[heavyweaponsguy]

223. Women don't have the self-respect to live in a clean house?

Without payment? Or are you saying something else?

[Hello_Kitty]

230. What about the men in the house?

:shrug:

[Recursion]

237. What's the "second shift" thing, women in two-income families...

...still do like 80% of the housework in the US, or something like that?

When I lived with my last girlfriend she did more housework than I did. I never asked her to. I just didn't particularly care what the house looked like as long as there weren't any vermin living in it, and she did.

[Hello_Kitty]

238. She knew she would be judged and you wouldn't be. eom

[Recursion]

239. No, then and now I clean up when guests are coming over

So it's not that.

[WinkyDink]

176. This was done, and probably funnier: "Get A Life".

[JanMichael]

208. Ding ding! nt!

[Hekate]

181. Dang kids won't get off my lawn, either. Sheesh. You want to be able to help family

My kids moved in and out a couple of times in their 20's, during transitional periods. Our family ethic is Get A Job, and so far so good. We were glad to help, and there was no desire on their parts to return to the womb and be children again. We were sorry they skipped college, but proud they are making up for it at a more mature and focused age.

They are both in their 30s now and well launched.

I'm not sure how this differs from any other time in history, except that young people used to have factories, mills, trade schools and apprenticeships that got them into the workforce post haste in their teens, instead of college, which keeps you hanging around until you are half-way through your 20s.

Hekate

[krabigirl]

183. Meh. Times are hard, and I think it's good that families are helping each other out.

I moved back during the 90s recession for a year..it did suck, but I got back onto my feet and got out of there just fine. Now if people don't, well, that's another issue...

[librechik]

187. surprize, it takes more than one income for survival

thanks to all those corporate presences who have refused to raise worker wages while initiating an executive rewards program that would make Babylonian kings envious. How can we expect singles to make it on their own when both members of a married couple must work to pay for a single household? What are singles supposed to do?

[Arugula Latte]

193. Frankly, I think moving around, having multiple jobs, not getting married young

having many partners before being monogamous, living with someone w/out marriage, traveling, experimenting, etc. are GOOD things. I did all that in my 20s and I don't regret any of it.

[rainbow4321]

198. That's what my oldest has done

She graduated from college in May 2009 with her theater degree, got a backstage job that allowed her to travel with a tour show--31 cities in 4 months.

She saved enough money from that to live in NYC for the last 7 months, found a great roommate, took on whatever theater jobs came her way (think she was "out of work" for maybe 2 weeks at the most during those months)..and is now going back on tour, this time on the other side of the country.

By the time she is 24, she will have traveled to about 50 cities on someone else's dime and built up an awesome resume along the way.

---------
My youngest is 20 y/o, going to community college, doesn't know what she wants to do yet, and lives at home. And I am OK with that..she works about 30 hrs a week, and carries 12 hrs per semester.

[NC_Nurse]

195. No jobs is the main problem. No good jobs is the next problem. There's also

a lot of us living with family due to illness. In my case, my husband and I live with my parents due to their health. And we're not 20-somethings either, just helping out the family.

Times are tough.

[alarimer]

196. I am not sure they are refusing to grow up.

I think a shitty job market and no hope of anything better, despite a college degree, is why they are moving back. Too much debt, too few job prospects.

[Terra Alta]

200. I'm 29 and still live at home.

So does my 23 year old brother. I don't see that changing for us anytime soon.
The problem is there are no JOBS anywhere, and college is unaffordable. I work full-time for a mega-corporation that can't even manage to pay me $10 an hour, and even on that I have a car that is paid for, I pay my own car insurance, gas, cell phone bill and I help my mom out every month with the household bills. Most of the time, I buy and cook my own food. My brother and I aren't lazy millennials mooching off our mother. We both bust our butts at our jobs, but simply cannot afford to live on our own right now. I have no desire to move out, get married and start a family -- not that I could afford to, anyway. It bothers me when people say my generation is lazy -- yes, there are some 20-somethings who ARE lazy and do mooch off their parents, but they are in the minority. Those of us who are lucky to have a job have an entry-level low paying one, and there are many in my generation who are busting their asses looking for a job(thank you, George W. Bush :grr:) .

[flamingdem]

You have identified the correct target BUSH + Co.

Thanks for not dumping on boomers. We're all in this together.

[Terra Alta]

210. Exactly

My mother is a boomer, as is my best friend. They are both very hard workers who probably won't be able to retire when they reach retirement age because of the economy. Meanwhile Bush is enjoying his life on his ranch without a worry or care in the world. Just the thought of it makes me angry. :grr:

[mrs_p]

204. i don't see why marrying and having children

equals "grown-up." I think it takes a mature person to know when not to marry and have children.

[Terra Alta]

212. Thank you!

I'm 29 and have no desire to marry, and consider myself childfree by choice. I'm mature enough to know I can't handle kids.. doesn't make me any less of a adult than people who do have children.

[Juche]

226. Because everyone else is doing it

Nothing says 'grown up' like making irreversible, important decisions based on a desire to avoid social ostracization.

[JanMichael]

207. I'm 42 and much of the article's issues hit me too.

Many jobs (lost count)in my 20's; moved back in with my parents repeatedly (Sometimes I really wish they would have said NO...but that never happened...plus I shouldn't have needed the refusal to begin with.); 6 year 4 year degree with a C average; but then...

Some things happened then I got lucky with a shit paying (could have qualified for a LIHTC studio) full time benefited job.

Now? Married to the perfect lady; decent job; weirdly responsible and self sufficient.

However I was given way too much help and help that I know most people never get. I can't imagine if college and living expenses during it were 100% my responsibility. The 6 year BA may have become 6 years at Publix or Winn Dixie or Burdines in the produce/lamp/mens shoes section. Not a bad thing at ALL but not likely resulting in where I am now or where I've been.

How would that have impacted today? Probably way more that anyone would like to admit.

[Cal Carpenter]

209. Oh great, more divide and conquer shit

See how well it's working? Just read this thread.

FFS. Nearly everyone is getting screwed so that a very small number of people can get obscenely rich.

This generation, the last generation, the one before that, and god knows the next one too unless people can see the forest for the fucking trees. But no, we'd rather argue with other have-nots, we'd rather create more factionalism between those who have-just-enough and those who have-nothing-at-all, or those born in this generation or that generation, does anyone else see how ridiculous this is?


:banghead:

[eridani]

211. Because when they reached maturity, the economy tanked

Duh.

[heavyweaponsguy]

218. Remember that we're worse than republicans...

Especially young MEN. After all, all we do is sit around all day with our fingers up our butt, while our mothers and sisters slave all day for our every need. Remember to continue to offend us in every way, because we'll surely vote democrat because of it. Yep. :banghead:

[Hello_Kitty]

232. "democrat" kind of gives you away. Just saying. eom

[Juche]

225. There is less financial security, and life is more complex

Expenses keep going up, but wages do not. Health care, student loan debt and real estate costs have skyrocketed while wages have stagnated. No jobs are being created.

On top of that, a person is a child because they need to learn the skills to function in life. And as life gets more and more complex (via media saturation, an explosion of options, etc) people stay adolescents for longer periods of time.

That is how I see it.

[InvisibleTouch]

229. If you read the biographies of people living in earlier decades...

...even up to the beginning of the 20th century, you'll find them taking on adult jobs and responsibilities in their early teens. They were expected, culturally, to be adults at that point, and so they were. Were they sometimes still immature and goofy and moody and all those things we expect teens to be? I'm sure they were, on occasion ... but nothing like what we see today.

I don't think the answer to the question is in the economy, at least not directly. It's in our cultural perception of children and teenagers, which has changed drastically over the decades. Whether it's for good or ill, I will leave open to interpretation. (My take: a bit of both.) But there's no question it has changed, and young people have changed accordingly.

[Overseas]

234. Millions of jobs have been outsourced. That's why. //nt

[Odin2005]

248. It's because you can't get a decent job out of high school anymore.

And our society infantilizes teens