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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:05 PM
Original message
Hell Is Other People
I promise this is the only post I will make on the topic of Jerry Falwell's death. Really.

My partner and I sometiems talk about the afterlife. We were both raised Catholic during a time when, during the post-Vatican II pendulum swing away from the kind of hellfire-heavy indoctrination you can read about in the retreat chapter of Joyce's _Portrait of the Artist_, hell was kind of, as it were, on the back burner. My partner says her parents always told her that because God was merciful there was virtually nobody in hell, "except maybe Hitler." For me, hell is more a literary construct than a spiritual one; I can't get to the concept of hell without going through Milton, Dante, and of course Sartre. His play _No Exit_ is probably the first literary depiction of hell that I encountered which was actually convincing (and frightening). It was, of course, also one of the first literary texts I encountered with an identified lesbian character in it. Ines, one of the three characters trapped in the Bourgeois Living Room of the Damned, is expiating her manipulations of her lover and her lover's husband through an eternity of being the third party of the underworld's most agonizing and least enjoyable menage a trois. What must have appealed to me even then about this play is that as unattractive and unsympathetic as she is, Ines is the closest thing the play has to a hero. Unlike Estelle and Garcin--the heterosexual pair she's doomed to triangulate for all eternity--Ines doesn't make excuses, lie about her past misdeeds, or angle for redemption. She's the only character who has what Sartre considered the cardinal virtue of an existentialist life, which is authenticity. Ines knows who she is, owns that, and doesn't apologize. And even though she was in hell, that was something I could admire about her.

An online friend of mine named Gillian Spraggs once published a very good essay, whose title I unfortunately cannot recall, about a novel by Jane Rule called _Desert of the Heart_ (later the inspiration for a Godawful lesbian film "classic" called _Desert Hearts_). It begins with a description of her decision, at a young age, to go to hell. She was raised by fundamentalist parents (they belonged to an English sect called the Brethren) who had always made it clear where those who were not saved would go. Gill figured out early on that she was not one of the saved, and made the decision at some point that instead of spending her life in a futile attempt to get into a heaven that she knew was not made for her, she would go to hell, where all the people like her already were. I was struck by this opening because although I didn't put it in those particular terms, her decision to walk into hell rather than be cast out of heaven is something that resonated with my own coming out story. All of us have to find ways of understanding why falling in love also means being cast out of the world we thought was ours, and of responding to that explusion. For those of us raised inside the Christian worldview, going to hell is one of the strongest metaphors that suggests itself. There is after all a long literary tradition of lovers declaring that if they won't meet the beloved in heaven, then they're not going. So, and this was Gill's point in her article, there is also a tradition of writing by gay and lesbian authors in which characters enter hell and, like Milton's Satan, decide to make a heaven of it. (You know, don't you, that in the romantic poet William Blake's reading of Milton's _Paradise Lost_, Satan is the hero? Well, now you do.) And unlike Milton's Satan, often these protagonists actually succeed. Or, more often, they discover that the heaven/hell dichotomy is false, that both places interpenetrate, that demons can protect you and that the angels have their own dark secrets. Reclaiming hell is one way for us to imagine reclaiming ourselves--since after all, we're always the ones who are damned.

My point is that the hell built by the fundamentalists comes out of a religious and literary tradition so powerful that it exerts considerable force even on those who don't actually believe in God, or in an afterlife, or in hell as a real (though metaphysical) place. Sartre certainly didn't believe in any of those things, for instance. I've never been able to believe in a hell where God does the tormenting. I see plenty of evidence, on the other hand, of humans making life hell for each other--which was probably why I found _No Exit_ so interesting. But the only hell I can really believe in is the hell that people make for themselves out of their own wrongdoing. I think it must be hell to be someone like, say, Dick Cheney. Maybe he doesn't _realize_ that; but surely it is.

Anyway. Having myself been consigned to hell by so many people--including Falwell himself--I would never wish it on anyone else, even those who have wished it on me. But not all of Falwell's partisans are that kind. And so it is with a sense of, I don't know, the opposite of irony that I note that Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church have announced their intention to protest Falwell's funeral.

Phelps, you may remember, got himself on the map in the 1980s by protesting the funerals of gay men who had died of AIDS, and attained national prominence by protesting the funeral of Matthew Sheppard in the 1990s. In reality, he is a hateful, spiteful, sonofabitch whose only goal in life is to feed off the rage and hatred that he provokes in grieving people; but because of the climate of right-wing Christian hatemongering generated and sustained by Falwell and his brethren, Phelps has been able to dress up his personal hatreds in the clothing of Christianity and pretend that what he's doing at these funerals is "preaching." Phelps's screed about Falwell and his fitness for hell makes exactly as much and as little sense as the various pronouncements Falwell has made about how this or that terribly cataclysmic event is a judgment on America for tolerating people like me. So, Falwell will go into his grave with Phelps spitting venom at him from the safe distance at which he will undoubtedly be kept.

Wherever Phelps goes when it's his turn to cross over, he'll probably see Falwell there. If my ideas about God and the afterlife are right, they won't be in hell--at least not the kind of hell they always imagined. But they'll probably be thrown together, being so much alike and all. And really, no matter how vindictive I was, I could not possibly wish anything worse on either of them.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Phelps protests Falwell's funeral!
Now that's so ironic, and somehow also so very fitting, that it made me laugh out loud - and that's a pretty rare occurance. Like attracts like, no doubt!

I have to agree not only that "Hell is other people," but that "hell" is what we make for ourselves, whether in this life or in the next, if there be one. I was wondering last night whether Falwall had shoved off (no loss to this world, to be sure), and if so, and if there is some manner of afterlife, that he must have been in for one hell of a surprise. No pun intended. ;)
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Please, please let this be videotaped !
by a good documentarian with lots of hi-def video cameras.
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. The absolute best kick to Falwell's groin possible
As Momma said this morning, not even a great comedy writer like Jim Ward could write comedy better than this.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Which way I flie is Hell; my self am Hell" -- Satan, Paradise Lost
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. In the Jewish tradition, (caveat, I am not Jewish), hell is where
Edited on Wed May-16-07 12:43 PM by rasputin1952
one separated from God after death. There is no fire & brimstone, no souls being eaten by demons and turned into excrement to be eaten again and all of that stuff. He;; is a place where you face your failures in life, and pay for them by being separated from the love of God.

I've had a few friends in the past who had rabbi's for fathers, and they were pretty adept at explaining all of this, And if people think that rabbi's don't discuss Christianity and Islam, they should really sit down and talk to one who has been around the block more than a few times. Jesus is considered a wise man on all accounts, but he is not seen as the savior of Judaism, not mankind. When delving into the NT, there is a lot of things that rabbi's can clear up. For one thing, since Jesus was Jewish, it is important to understand in what context he was speaking to both the Jewish and Gentile communities. Things were different back then, and time has created the whole hell as a fiery furnace type of thing.

What bothers me more than anything else about the whole "Revival Fundy" movement is their obsession w/hell. Rarely, if ever, do i hear about the Beatitudes, love, forgiveness, mercy, wisdom, understanding, compassion or a host of other things that are base tenets of what Jesus was talking about. For them, it's all, "believe what I'm telling you, or you're going to hell". It is religion by fear and coercion, not good foundations at all.

I do not worry about hell...I worry more about how I can alleviate hell in my little corner of the universe while we're living in it.
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catrose Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Gehenna was an actual place, I was told,
outside Jerusalem. A rubbish heap that had been smoldering for centuries. If you were poor, your dead body was thrown in the heap with the trash. And THAT's what Jesus was talking about when he talked about being consigned to the fires of hell, I was told by a minister recently.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. This is true, and it must certainly been a view of what...
"hell" would look like to a contmeporary.

But I think that later authors of some of the Books of the NT used this as a portrayal of hell. I am sure that Jesus would have been brought up w/Jewish tradition, laws and mores, seems as if all Jews were brought up that way at the time, so he would have had the traditional Jewish version of hell in his mind. I should think that there would be great fear of dying and not being in the presence of God, to those brought up in that tradition.


Only later, did the whole "fire and brimstone" thing take hold...and I am of the opinion that any religion that needs to scare the shit out of you to have you follow it, is really off the track. (caveat: I am a Christian, but no where near what people think of as current Christianity...:) )

It does no take much to be compassionate, giving, loving, forgiving and a seeker of equality and justice once you get used to it...:D The worst thing to be is a hypocrite, and the loss of a sense of humor.
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Kber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I think it was where the remains of temple sacrifices were burned
It was constantly burning 'cause it was constantly being resupplied by temple sacrifices. There's probably a larger truth in there somewhere. Maybe hell can only exist in the context of organized, sacrificial religion?
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Erechtheides Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. I'd heard that, too,
and that mothers used to frighten their children by telling them they'd be tossed out into Gehenna if they were bad.
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Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Great post
as usual.

"I think it must be hell to be someone like, say, Dick Cheney. Maybe he doesn't _realize_ that; but surely it is."

Plaid Adder just gets it.

:thumbsup:

Alyce
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hahahaha!
Beautiful.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I agree that separation from God is hell. I believe we all go to the
same next form together but the more horrible you are, the farther from the light of God's love you are placed. You have to understand what you did and the consequences of your actions before enlightenment and access to the society and light of God's love can be had. Jerry Falwell understands today that he has a lot to answer for and he will wander in the dark until he accepts that and feels regret.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
28. That's really exactly how I see it too
I think Falwell has gone someplace where he will be faced with the knowledge that he could have been a positive force in the world, but chose instead to be a pig and hurt people, and he will have to feel regret for all the pain he's caused.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. I tend to prefer the description of Hell offered by Karen Armstrong.
Edited on Wed May-16-07 12:57 PM by TahitiNut
In one of her books, Karen Armstrong describes one of the early myths regarding Satan and Hell. As I recall, the angel Lucifer ("Light Bringer") refused God's instruction to love mankind as God's children, Lucifer claiming that he could only love God and no other. For this, Lucifer was removed from the sight of God, and was thus deprived of that which he claimed to love. Hell, then, is a state of being deprived of the sight of God, a 'place' without love.

I've thought this was a particularly interesting interpretation. I find some resonance in the quote from 'The American President' where Sydnie says "How do you have patience for people who claim they love America, but clearly can't stand Americans?"

We're drowning in a culture where self-proclaimed evangelical preachers claim to be bringing us the Word of God but repeatedly demonstrate the Sin of Satan ... a refusal to love all of God's children. They seem to be creating the same Hell to which Satan was consigned. While we're advisd to hate the sin and love the sinner, the Falwells of this 'movement' make no such distinction in their secular rhetoric as they demand compliance, not with conscience, but with a perverted secular ideology.

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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
23. And I'll go with C.S. Lewis--hell is a small place we create for ourselves
When we lock out others and turn inward.The damned would be ghosts in Heaven, for they only gain substance and weight by reaching out. ("The Great Divide", a little book but worth the read)
The tighter you wrap the world around you, the deeper into Hell you go.

Thanks for reaching out in your own inimitable way, Plaider.
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hell is other people's music.
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Hell is elevator music
Especially great Beatles songs done as elevator music.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. "hell is other people, but then
so is heaven. No omelette sans eggs. No bread without leaven."

A stanza from one of my poems with the quote of Sartre and I reply I read from Andrew Greeley. I cannot find my quote from Vida Scudder where she says that 'fellowship is heaven, and its lack is hell.' But I find this: "acheivement of unity is the hard task assigned by life - or God - and one way we are helped in the struggle is by irresistable attraction towards persons who hold alien what we hold sacred."

Perhaps heaven is the love of other people, and hell, the indifference.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. Sartre is fun.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. Yes,
especially when other people do what they did to Sor Juana Inés de La Cruz.

:kick:
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. Very well writen and well said.
Indeed, no matter where Fred Phelps and Jerry Fallwell go, they will probably go together, and deserve each other's wretched company.
Hell has always had a terrible power over me. I have a horrible irrational fear of it, and of death, because I fear what comes after death. It has colored my religious perceptions...too afraid to renounce faith, I find myself torn because I am disgusted with Christianity, by and large, but am too afraid to abandon faith.
It's very, very difficult to get beyond this.
That's why I don't wish hell on Jerry Fallwell. As loathsome as he was, hell is too horrible a thing even for Hitler. I'm sorry.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kick.
Previously recommended.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. No, I can't be so polite.
Toss Falwell into the land of the Teletubbies for all eternity, and let Noo-Noo, the sentient, self-propelled vacuum cleaner be the only creature who pays him any attention at all, forever cleaning up the hatred spewing from Falwell's dark little heart, and expelling it as a gentle breeze smelling faintly of lilacs.
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Erechtheides Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. poor Noo-Noo
n/m
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. It's Noo-Noo's calling.
That little guy could clean up Chernobyl during a ten minute snack break.

Too bad Noo-Noo is needed more on other worlds than this one.
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catrose Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kiss & Kick, Plaidder
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. wow- this is
very good Plaid Adder- which doesn't surprise me-

I agree with you.

The bible itself agrees with you I believe-
In the "lords prayer" where 'we' ask to be forgiven in the same way (like measure) we forgive others- And "Judged" accordingly.

Which is also part of many other faiths.

peace,
blu
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Erechtheides Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
24. the image of Phelps and Falwell enjoying each other's company for all time is an appealing one
I haven't read No Exit since I was a teenager. It's something that could probably stand some more mature rereading.

In Milton, Satan gets all the best lines.

Plaidder, have you ever read Neil Gaiman? He writes a hell in which Satan and his demons basically exist to serve the damned souls, giving them the punishment they demand. The damned are free to go, but many insist on staying. They've only shown up there in the first place because they were convinced they would.
The way I'm putting it makes it sound kind of facile, but it's both conceived and executed well in his work.
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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. In which Gaiman work did you find that?
I adore Gaiman, but I'd never encountered the book this is in. Please tell!
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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. I haven't read Neil Gaiman.
I know a lot of people who are huge Gaiman fans, and I'm sure I would enjoy his stuff, but so far he remains on my list of Things To Read Before I Die.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder
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