Wait, let me get this Florida Senate race straight.

[MadHound]

So, the race for Florida Senate now consists of a Republican, a Republican turned independent, and a Democrat.

Yet there are people around here who are advocating that people support and vote for the Republican turned independent. I've heard the rationalizing, that Meek can't win. Well d'uh, if you don't get behind him he can't.

But apparently there are those who want to be on the winning side so badly that they're willing to throw their support and vote behind one of the more abhorrent governors going.

Look, if you support or vote for Christ this fall, you will have just vacated any moral authority you though you had over those on the left who are thinking of going Green. You are not even voting third party, you are voting 'Pug. You will have just lost any standing you had to berate the left for being fed up with both parties. At least those of us on the left vote for an actual liberal, progressive candidate. Those who are support Christ, you're just voting for refried Republican pond scum.

[ixion]

1. Party uber alles

check.

[MadHound]

3. Winning uber alles

Hypocrisy.

[ixion]

14. uh, the notion of "winning over all" implies a lack of ethics

so I don't know who you're calling a hypocrite. My stance on the issues HAS NOT CHANGED despite the change in the admin, but it seems some folks believe that what's bad under the GOP is A-OKAY under a Dem admin, and that ethical relativity, sir, is what is true hypocrisy.

[MadHound]

16. You and I are actually probably pretty close on this one

My point in this post is to call out the hypocrisy of those here who are supporting Crist. They have been some of the biggest party discipline enforcers around, up until this point. It is the hypocrisy that burns, their desire to win over anything.

[ixion]

20. Yep, I think so, too

My bad for mis-reading your OP. :)

[another saigon]

37. I agree completely

It would have been nice to see that support for a real progressive like Kucinich or Gravel back in the primaries. Instead of believing the media hype about "the dem race is between hil and o" over and over. The corporate media has chosen our candidates for us for decades now.

Is it ever going to end?

[Cirque du So-What]

6. Blatant attempt to equate Democratic-party loyalty with the fucking NAZIS?!?

Check.

[ixion]

11. Not the Democratic party, per se

Just people who insist on party loyalty no matter what. That is a loyalty oath, any way you cut it.

[MadHound]

12. And apparently you're not getting my OP at all,

I'm less on party loyalty, and more about calling out hypocrisy. There are a lot of Crist supporters here who have been, up to this point, the most vehement advocates of party discipline. Now they're jumping to Crist, I find the hypocrisy astounding.

[ixion]

19. On that we agree. However, I'm not one of those.

So I guess our disagreement is moot. :hi:

Apologies for the mis-understanding.

[MadHound]

21. Sorry I wasn't a bit clearer there

I just had to finish my morning cup of coffee.

Peace:hi:

[tsuki]

23. It's less about Crist supporter than it is about anti-Rubio. What you

need to realize is that a lot of Dems who voted Nader in 2000 have been agonizing over that vote for 10 years.

Now, ten years later, many are trying to find a way to make sure Rubio goes down election night.

It's a lot more nuanced than your black and white suggests.

[MadHound]

28. So then you have no moral authority now to blast those of us on the left

Who find both party candidates unacceptable in certain races.

Rather than supporting a Democrat, you are simply opting to go with a "winner" instead. The hypocrisy in this position is astounding.

[tsuki]

31. Reading is fundamental. I did not say that I was not supporting or

voting Meek.

[MadHound]

32. Whoa dude, you are spinning like a top.

What, you think that people around here can't read your own words? From your post further down the thread:
"I live in a very Republicon area, and I have been advocating for Christ among my Repub acquantainces."

Sounds like you are advocating for Crist there, hmmm. And don't give me that bullshit that your neighbors are too conservative to vote for a Dem. That's simply not true, you're taking the easy way out. I live in what is probably one of the most racist, conservative counties in the country(it only officially rejoined the Union about a decade ago), yet in '08 I managed to get several of my conservative neighbors to vote for Obama.

Your whole attitude screams that you are being "pragmatic" and supporting Crist. Hypocrisy much?

[tsuki]

43. Again, reading is fundamental. Republicons here will not vote for

Meek, period. When you have someone tell you that they don't want another n****r in DC, you get the picture.

Rubio got 81% of the Republicon vote last night, but Republicons are uneasy about him. So while we peel off Rubio support among the Republicons, we are trying to marshall support among Independents (the ones that didn't go back to being Republicons after the election) and Dems for Meek who, BTW, took a hit from Republicon Greene.

I am not interested in being the most holy, self-righteous one in the group. I am interested in a pragmatic game plan that will peel off the 81% lock-step Republicon electorate. I want to Naderize Rubio.

If we can, I believe Meek has a good chance.

[peekaloo]

2. Crist.

;-)

[jberryhill]

25. Spellcheckers

Since having started using a device with an aggressive spellchecker, I'm more sympathetic to that sort of thing.

On some devices now, you have to force the correct spelling over what the device is assuming.

[peekaloo]

27. it was more the idea that Charlie the Tuna could walk on water

when we all know that turds float on their own accord. }(

[LynneSin]

4. I'm under the impression that since there is a Dem in the party, that's who we can support here

Honestly, I'm not going to peak at the ballot of every voter here at DU but Meeks is the democratic candidate of choice and the one that we can campaign for here on the DU boards. Crist has made no indication that he would side with the democrats if elected so why would we help get him elected if he could help give the Republicans the majority. The only way support Crist would be feasible is if there was no democratic candidate on the ticket, like it was up in Vermont. Bernie Sanders was an independent that has always been the supported Dem candidate and has had a proven track record that if elected he would side with the democrats.

[MadHound]

8. Oh, you'd be surprised.

Dig back a couple of weeks, especially over in GDP, and you'll find some very pragmatic Dems who are openly supporting Crist over Meeks. Their excuse is that Meeks can't win, well d'uh, of course he can't if Dems don't get behind him.

[LynneSin]

39. Yes and how stupid would we look if Crist wins and sides with the Republicans

At least if it was a Green candidate there is a good chance they would side with the Democrats.

Just no excuse for supporting Crist.

[MadHound]

40. I don't think that "if" is the operative term. I think "will" is more appropriate

It simply astounds me how many people around here are willing to throw their principles overboard in the hopes of being on the winning side.

[glitch]

41. They just have different principles.

Not hard to see how DLCers would prefer a former Republican over a Democrat. The "can't win" rationale is standard Rahm.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

49. Will you accept the outcome if Rubio wins?

Are you o.k. with that? Pragmatically speaking, if Meeks can't significantly increase his support between now and November, Democratic voters in Florida will need to decide for themselves whether or not to throw their support behind somebody who is electable and will most likely caucus with us at least some of time or back Meeks to the very end- essentially enabling Rubio-somebody who will NEVER caucus with us and will be one more hard-core Republican fighting against President Obama and a more progressive agenda tooth and nail for the next six years. I don't live in Florida so I don't have a say in the matter but to me, backing Crist would be infinitely better than enabling Rubio to be elected. It bet it sucks to be Meeks right now, though. Maybe he can (somehow) get his poll numbers somewhere within range of Rubio. :shrug: I believe that people should actively support/work for Meeks but if, in the final analysis, his poll numbers don't move much from where they are now, I wouldn't begrudge any Democrats for voting for Crist (who seems to be a genuinely reasonable guy- for a Republican).

[myrna minx]

13. There are Crist boosters right on this very message board. n/t

[ThomWV]

5. This one isn't about policy, its about redistricting

[MadHound]

9. I don't understand,

Why do you think that this is all about redistricting?

[Obamanaut]

7. Too early for the war on 'Christ'mas - in this case it's 'Crist" nt

[Cirque du So-What]

10. If support for Crist is allowed to stand (please note the conditional word IF)

I will take my leave of this board and never return. It is anathema to the board's stated mission, and I won't be a part of open advocacy against a Democratic candidate for ANY office. Third-party advocates, FLAME AWAY! Let your true colors show!

[JCMach1]

15. Whoever can beat Rubio on the day I cast my vote is who I vote for...

I hope Meek does well... I really do.

I am not going to advocate for Crist by any stretch... but Rubio is by far the greater magnitude of just plain evil.

I know it is strategic voting...

But having seen the Clusterfark that is the Florida Democratic party over the years... :(

Whichever way... I know that if Meek and Crist split the difference, Rubio wins with the tea party 35%+ a few other Repugs and Indys thrown in.

For many of us Florida dems it's about defeating Rubio at any cost.

Often races are local... what you know about an individual outside of party does matter...


I will just give one example on the local level. The only time I voted against a Dem. in recent years was in a legislative race in Florida as I personally knew the Dem running and knew that (shock and horror) she was actually a right-winger in sheep's clothing. Not only that, she was just plain evil (I don't use the term lightly as she was known for backstabbing local pols and individuals who dared to disagree with her).

What to do?

Anyway, will wait and see the day I cast my absentee ballot. Until then, I am watching closely.

[MadHound]

17. Hmm, supporting a 'Pug to beat a 'Pug,

I hope that I never, ever see you berate somebody on the left who is thinking of going Green. The hypocrisy, it will burn.

What gets me, is despite Meeks proven ability to be the comeback kid and win, a lot of people are abandoning him because he's not perceived as a winner. Well gee, if you don't get behind him, of course he can't win.

Perhaps you should try actually supporting him, see what happens. He might just win.

[JCMach1]

22. I am not in a position to knock on doors anyway, but I will look at things

as they stand the day I mail my ballot. I would just consider abstaining (so to speak), except I strongly support Alex Sink and want to get my vote in for that race (my $$$ for this cycle have gone there and nationally).

I don't particularly like or dislike Meek or Crist...

I just know I don't want no stinkin' Rubio... :puke:

[tsuki]

26. I live in a very Republicon area, and I have been advocating for

Christ among my Repub acquantainces. There is no way that they will vote Meek, sorry, but that those are the facts. So my plan is to peel Repub votes from Rubio to Christ. So far, it is working. I want Christ to be the Republicon's Nader.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. It might help if you spell his name right.

[tsuki]

47. Thanks, I do that all the time. I used to have trouble with Chiles. nt

[The Backlash Cometh]

50. No prob.

I do it all the time.

[The Backlash Cometh]

34. Who are you going to trust? A newspaper?

They were projecting a win for McCollum all up until election day.

[retread]

18. Meek will get my money, support, and vote because his voting record shows

the kind of Senator he will be.

[left is right]

24. not from Florida; have no idea whether Dem could win

but he has an unfortunate name. I think there are many people that will subconsciously say these are tough times and we need a man that is equal to them. they will then be unwilling to vote for Meek based solely on his surname and not his abilities or policies

[tsuki]

30. When Christ exited the GOP, Greene jumped into the race with

supposedly 38 million of his own money with one objective, TO SMEAR MEEK. I don't watch TV, so I don't know what the ads were like, but I received two mailed glossy cards a week of smears, and got two-three robo calls each week. (BTW, how are RoboCalls paid? I put the phone down and let the message play in case they were paid on completed calls only.)

Greene is a lying, thieving, amoral Republicon. But he did hurt Meek for the general, even attacking his Mom.

That is what has many Dems worried, and the fact that Rubio is Greene's soul mate.

[Raineyb]

29. And the ones openly supporting Crist are the most vociferous name callers

and post the most OPs yelling at people to get in line. This in addition to being the first ones to say "Fuck Nader" every chance they get. They are hypocrites and I intend to point it out every chance I get.

[The Backlash Cometh]

33. MadHound,

What's scary is the reasons that are being given. One guy said that Meeks can't win because he's black and some Democrats won't vote for him. And the other problem is that you have the trial lawyer contingency behind Crist. This is the scariest trend of all because we have some very crooked lawyers in Florida, which like moving in and out of the public and private sector doing some questionable things without being reprimanded for them, and oh, they also do campaign funding for Crist.

I'm not saying all trial lawyers, I'm just saying that there is a strange reason for trial lawyers to be supporting Crist and I want to know why.

[peekaloo]

35. funny you should mention trial lawyers

here in my Central Florida cow town Meek's original steering committee included THE name partner of a local/powerful law firm. he dropped out to support Crist.....hmmmmmmm.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. There is something very funky here.

Crist represents the old guard way of doing business in Florida. If he has the lawyers, then among them are some of the most politically connected operators in government, doing some pretty heinous shit that should have gotten them disbarred a long time ago.

[suzie]

46. Good, let's go for the trial lawyers and alienate them as much as possible.

They were the ones who came out and gave endless volunteer hours in 2008 trying to make sure that some of the usual Florida voting debacles didn't happen.

But let's make sure that we trash them so that in 2012 we can go back to the tried and true Florida Democratic Party way of losing every statewide election.

Trial lawyers might be supporting Crist because they think that Rubio is a Jeb Bush mouthpiece who will introduce only Jeb backed-legislation and spend every waking moment trying to assure a return to a Bush presidency.

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. Are you sure that trial lawyers are Democratic for self-less reasons?

Or did they gravitate to the Democratic party because the Republicans were pushing tort-reform?
I think it's just a little crazy to allow them to run point with our votes when the truth is, they had a lot riding on that election where they provided pro bono work.

[suzie]

52. Are you gonna go through all the Democratic constituencies and question why they support

Democrats?

Great way to win elections.

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. What South Carolina remarks?

Yes, it might be an issue if his loyalty to the Clintons blinded him further.

If people only had an idea how often they were sold out by their leaders.

[flamingdem]

42. Ask yourself if the good dems of Florida want a RABID Teaparty nutjob installed

and then rephrase your question.

Meek won't beat the odds against him. Crist is about the same as Meek on many issues.

For instance Meek took the very right wing position of being against ALL, not just some, remittances to Cubans in Cuba. He's an opportunist... he's not better than Crist.

[kentuck]

44. I think if we unite behind Meeks...

Rubio and Crist will divide the Republican votes and Meeks stands a very good chance of winning. That is about the only scenario in which he could win. This is a Democratic seat for the taking if we play it right.

[tsuki]

53. We cannot only unite behind Meek, we have to actively divide the

Republicon base. Rubio took 81% of the vote here. We are having some success, but the problem is with the Dems and left-leaning Independents.

Republicon Greene did so much damage, and a lot of Dems here are 2000 Nader scared.

I am trying to convince them that we can Naderize Rubio if we hold the line.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Your Analogy Is Inapt

Without Nader in the race Gore would have won Florida and wouldn't have had to worry about the vagaries of the Supreme Court.

Without Meek in the race Crist would beat Rubio who is a Teabagger and Jeb Bush's doppelganger.


Like a vote for Nader a vote for Meek is a vore for "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good."

[Raineyb]

51. In other words, you're saying that the REPUBLICAN Crist is entitled to win the race

and voting for the Democrat is robbing the man by playing spoiler? Are you for fucking real?