Where do YOU draw the Church & State Line?

[Philosoraptor]

Me? I don't think preachers or priests or rabbis or mullahs should be allowed to run for president. Didn't care for it from pat robertson OR Jesse Jackson, preachers should just be preachers.

Giant mega churches should pay taxes. Televangelism should be more tightly controlled.

People with uber religious agendas should not hold office. Like the 150+ that are currently in our government, placed there by robertson.

Jesus should be re discovered by the so called Christian conservative war lovers, restored His place as prince of peace, not gun toting mad bomber.

Help me out here.

[ATK]

1. around the church

of

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. I'll stick with these guys opinions.

James Madison
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor

Thomas Jefferson
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

[Philosoraptor]

8. 'bigotry and persecution', is so old testament.

[Az]

3. Speaking as an atheist

I am disturbed by the idea of taxing Churches. Whether I agree with them or not a Church in essence is just a collection of people sharing ideas and looking for ways to promote them. To tax such a thing is to limit some of our most important rights namely the freedoms of thought and speech.

That being said once a Church enters into the political arena it makes itself taxable. This is currently the legal position and it is a good position. Taxes are essentially what we pay for our voice in the process. No taxation without representation. And conversely no representation without taxation. You want a voice in the process then you have to chip in.

By taxing the Churches we would hand them so much more power and say in our government than they have now that it would be dizzying. Keeping state and church separate in all ways is the only safe path if we wish to truly embrace the idea of freedom.

[Philosoraptor]

4. Good points to consider.

[Tyler Durden]

7. Don't the Shriners and Masons pay property taxes?

Hey, as long as they don't amass wealth and work as a true non-profit, then the real tax breaks are there.

[Az]

12. Oh I agree that there are abuses

The mega-churches certainly seem to cross the line and have become an institution unto themselves. Nearly seceding from the society around them like modern day Mennonites. But it becomes tricky disentangling where religious doctrine ends and capitalism begins in some cases. And their tax attorneys are more than willing to do what they can to blur the lines.

No one ever said ideals always line up neatly with reality.

[baldguy]

9. A church doesn't exist to spread ideas.

A church exists to accumulate power & money.

[Az]

13. Some do

Some don't. There are religious leaders like Peter Popoff who are out and out swindlers and there are church leaders that are true believers. Do you propose a test to see which is which?

[Philosoraptor]

14. Y'mean--peter popoff's "Healing Miracle Spring Water" is a hoax?

[AllegroRondo]

21. "No representation without taxation"

I like that!

[Tyler Durden]

5. Why are ANY churches exempt from taxes?

I would think any church worth its salt could qualify as a TRUE non-profit if it chose.

I don't know how we'd keep the Fundamentalists out of congress, but then I'm a Socialist so I have distinct feelings on THAT issue.

[Squatch]

6. "Allowed"...

Let's let the electoral process determine who we "allow" to serve as President, shall we?

[Double T]

10. There is no place in government or politics for religion............

of any form. Organized religion is the cause of most of world's wars and conflicts throughout history.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm

[sheerjoy]

11. Lemme say

as a pastor/evangelist for more than 4 decades... I totally agree that preachers need to preach and stay the heck outta politics...except to vote when the time comes.

That said, I draw no line.... like Paul, for me to LIVE is Christ so I cannot - dare not - will not - separate church and state. It is all one for the Christian... that would be like separating sin and salvation...

Nope.

But a resounding AMEN to preachers preaching the Word and leaving the foolishness to others.

[donco6]

19. So, a question. . .

Would you use the power of the state to subdue homosexuals because the Bible says it's sin?

Would you use state funding to support religious schools?

[sheerjoy]

22. My answers

Would you use the power of the state to subdue homosexuals because the Bible says it's sin?

Certainly not. I would agree with the Bible, but share Christ in love and let HIM i.e. Christ handle the rest.

Would you use state funding to support religious schools?

Sure. We all need financial assistance now and then; BUT just as I would not want the state dictating what could be taught, I would not want the church to dabble in the elections.

[KamaAina]

15. Straight down Orange St. in New Haven

Church St. is one block west; State St. is one block east. :-)

Oddly enough, the New Haven Colony was founded as America's first theocracy. Yet, there is no corner of Church and State, because they're parallel.

[Ron Green]

20. Is Market Street nearby?

Because that's the other side of the triangle by which human society has always been controlled, but rarely included in the church/state discussion. In my view, each of these three institutions must be allowed to exist and to work their power, but the State must, as the "decider," keep the other two somehow regulated. (I also define "the Church" very broadly, to include educational, scientific and charitable organizations.)

It's in our best interest not just to separate the institutions of human life, but to make them the best they can be as they seek to work together.

[HockeyMom]

16. They shouldn't endorse candidates who will legislate

that particular church's religious views. I also don't like the Pope threatening Catholic politicians who don't toe the line on the Catholic Church doctrine. We don't have a THEOCRACY in the USA, Pope Benedict.

Take away their tax exempt status.

[onenote]

17. Disagree completely

The idea of a "religion" test for who can run for president is totally antithetical to the First Amendment. Should rabbis, ministers, priests, etc. be barred from holding any political office or just president? Would you bar ministers from being elected to the House or Senate? From becoming Speaker or Majority Leader?

Emanuel Cleaver (D-MO) is an ordained minister currently serving as Congress. William Gray (D-PA) who previously served in Congress also was a minister. I'm sure there have been others and that many of them were Democrats. The first Roman Catholic priest to be elected to Congress was Robert Drinan (D-MA). In case you don't know anything about Drinan, he was an anti-war activist who also was the first member of Congress to call for Richard Nixon's impeachment.

And, personally, I think Martin Luther King would've made a great national leader. You, obviously, disagree.

[porphyrian]

18. I think the topic is being over-complicated unnecessarily.

America is a country of freedoms (at least, it's supposed to be). We aren't a homogenous people, and that is one of our strengths. In order to accommodate this, we have to accept a number of different practices and beliefs we don't agree with, and our laws are meant to prevent the practices and beliefs of one group from infringing on the freedoms of others. Again, at least, that's how it's supposed to be.

When a law ceases to protect the freedoms of all Americans, it is a bad law. If that law is religious in nature, it has crossed the line. Criminalizing abortion would be an example. Assuming all churches are charitable and deserve tax-exempt status is another. We pledge "liberty and justice for all," not "liberty and justice for those who think as I do alone."