T. Hartmann has a wackjob on now (Masonic conspiracies??? New World Order?)

[bluestateguy]

nt

[annarbor]

1. I'm listening now...

Kind of reminds me of something I would hear on Art Bell's Coast to Coast.

Ann Arbor

[fooj]

2. Why does everyone refer to people as "wackjobs" when they speak of conspiracies?

Know your BFEE!!!

[melody]

6. Because living is easy with eyes closed

It's scary to encounter the facts.

[Matariki]

8. only when they talk about 'masonic conspiracies'

have you ever met any masons? now imagine them ruling the world. :rofl:

[unpossibles]

10. with most Masons I would agree

and while I don't see them as strictly some cabal, the fact is that many world leaders are and have been Masons.

I don't know. And as someone else said, people scoffed at the idea of the PNAC and the fabrication of the Iraq WMD program, but who's laughing now?

[Matariki]

12. oh boy

i think the masons are just fine. with principles and so forth.

[unpossibles]

13. I don't disagree. I know quite a few people who are Masons

and don't see them as evil. But a lot of leaders are masons too. Just saying.

[Matariki]

14. and you think all leaders are evil. and by this logic -

all leaders are evil. lots of leaders are masons. therefore masons are evil.

is that it?

[unpossibles]

20. I never said all leaders are evil or that Masons are evil

sheesh.

[Matariki]

21. I know. You said "But a lot of leaders are masons too. Just saying."

I figured you were trying to draw some sort of conclusion or guilt by association.

What were you 'just saying' then?

[Matariki]

17. only 15 US presidents were Masons btw - the last being Gerald Ford

Masonry is sort of dying out. Probably because they don't allow women in their order, at least according to the younger masons I know.

Fifteen presidents were Freemasons: George Washington, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, James Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, James Garfield, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Warren G. Harding, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, Lyndon Johnson and Gerald Ford.

[SpiralHawk]

23. Are the Skull & Boners a Masonic offshoot, or an occultly deviant form?

Since Commander AWOL and his Poppy and GrandPoppy Nazi Banker were all
Boners, and since they seem to have some kinda weird intimate THANG going on with Reverend "Second Coming of Christ" Moon, the late, pititful Jerry Falwell, and even Pope "Grand Inquisitor" Ratzinger, a fella kind of has to wonder about the Occult Cabal Thingy...

Ya know what I mean ???

[Matariki]

24. They're a college fraternity at Yale

not a 'masonic offshoot'. The Shriners are a Masonic 'offshoot'. They do fund raising for crippled kids.

[conscious evolution]

25. No

They are not part of the Masons.

[Matariki]

27. heh - read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones

<snip>
Additionally, with both George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush members of Skull and Bones, and noting that one Skull and Bones initiation rite all members must go through being masturbating in a coffin in front of other Bonesmen, it is known that President George W. Bush masturbated in front of his father, in addition to a crowd of others.

[SpiralHawk]

29. The Bush clan belongs to a mighty peculiar occult cabal "fraternity," if you ask me

What the Hell kind of college hijinks is that? Such debasement sounds like an occult cabal to any proper metaphysician...fer sure...wankin the weenie for your cabal pals? I mean, really...

[Matariki]

31. more college hijinks than occult cabal

hell, i'm in an occult 'cabal' and we don't do shit like that. On the other hand, when I lived near the frat houses in the university district of my city one of the houses got shut down for bringing in sheep for the blind-folded, peanut butter covered pledges to screw. And sadly, I am NOT making that up.

http://chronicle.com/che-data/articles.dir/articles-36.dir/issue-21.dir/21a00204.htm
http://hazing.hanknuwer.com/chronology.html

[Louis C. Phurye]

34. What "occult cabal" are you "in"?

Skull & Crossbones is a lot more than a harmeless college fraternity. It is a secret society whose members go on to become rich and powerful global figures.

[Matariki]

42. That has much to do with the nature of Yale in the first place

in that many students come from rich and powerful families and certainly fraternities like that make their selections with that in mind. Doesn't make them an 'occult order'. It does mean that a bunch of rich white guys have a shared sense of brotherhood though.

[siligut]

35. Schisms

In his respected book, Proofs of a Conspiracy originally published 1798; Professor John Robison talks about schisms in Freemasonry. I suspect some of those factions aren’t too public. I also suspect that the outer circles have no real idea of what goes on in the inner circles.

[siligut]

39. Women get "The Eastern Star" cabal. nt

[Louis C. Phurye]

33. Freemasonry is a lot more prevalent in Europe.

Not so much this country anymore. Have you ever heard of Propaganda Due?

1981: Italy in crisis as cabinet resigns
The Italian Prime Minister Arnaldo Forlani and his coalition cabinet have resigned following a scandal over membership of a Masonic lodge.

It follows a police raid on the Arezzo home of financier Lucio Gelli in March that uncovered a list of hundreds of members of the P2 (Propaganda Two) Masonic lodge.

Among those on the list were leading members of the armed forces, civil servants, top bankers, industrialists and newspaper editors. Many have denied that they were members of the lodge.

{more}


http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/26/newsid_4396000/4396893.stm

[unpossibles]

41. yes, I was just reading about P2 this morning

funny.

[Bozita]

3. He had David Horowitz on earlier today

See your nutcase and raise you one ignoramus.

[fooj]

4. When we spoke of the PNAC...

HOW many people called us "nutcases" and "whackjobs"?

[Bozita]

5. I found this to be a very interesting half-hour on Hartmann

Did you hear Horowitz earlier?

[Gold Metal Flake]

7. I caught the tail end.

Whorowitz revealed that he is either deliberately ignorant of the PATRIOT Act or he is deliberately lying about not knowing how certain sections, such as the sneak & peak allowances, work.

[devilgrrl]

9. I think he's a pathological liar. I don't think he believes a thing that comes out of his mouth.

He's in it for the money - plain and simple.

[fooj]

11. No. I just tuned when I read this thread.

:smoke:

[blm]

15. George H W Bush spoke of New World Order 40 times publically while president

but we're supposed to disregard those intentions?

Why?

Do you believe that GHWBush just woke up one day in late January 1993 and decided to STOP armsdealing, terror funding, drugrunning and nuclear proliferation deals just because he was no longer sitting in the oval office?

[Matariki]

19. Bush isn't a mason.

He's just a fuckhead in a conspiracy of fuckheads. Or dunces.

[fooj]

22. I don't see where blm stated that GHWBush was a mason.

I don't understand why people REFUSE to believe something that is documented in our history. There has been SWORN testimony that is on the record and STILL people refuse to wrap their minds around it. Truth isn't always pretty.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7850559484065398098&pl=true

As horrific as this is...it's imperative that we consider all that is going on in our country. We can't restore the Rule of Law unless we extract the cancer that is quickly spreading all around us. This is all about Poppy. All of it.

Know your BFEE.

[Matariki]

26. I would never disagree that the Bush clan has 'conspired' against the rest of us.

if you define 'conspire' as a group of people getting together and forming a plan to defraud, fuck over, or generally break the laws of the land to their own advantage.

I think it's dumb to attribute this conspiracy of a bunch of criminals to the Masons or 'occult' secret societies.

[blm]

28. The post also pointed to New World Order - I don't care about the mason part.

But no one better try to pretend with me that New World Order intentions I HEARD MYSELF made by GHWBush and Dick Cheney back in 91 are a figment of my imagination.

[Matariki]

30. Do you know what that means? I don't.

Is it something GHWBush made up, or the neo-cons came up with, or was it a concept that already existed? I don't doubt that these bastards that satellite around the elder Bush aren't conspiring, I just don't like the sort of anti-mason, anti occult group, ookie-spookie illuminati nonsense.

I was thinking about the Mason bashing I saw up-thread. Sorry I let it spill over on to your post.

[siligut]

38. And that was Pat Robertson's stand, he even wrote a book.

Pat robertson was very verbal about the New World Order, he hoped for the nomination based on it.

[Marrah_G]

16. As the former wife of a Mason....

Let me the first to say...the conspiracy theories all a load of crap.

The average age of a Mason is currently like 80 years old.

They do charity work.

In the PAST we had leaders that were Masons. In fact Masons created this democracy, this secular democracy.

Now there are not very many leaders who are Masons. Perhaps that is the problem.

GWB could probably use a few lessons from the Masons on how to treat others.

[Matariki]

18. Right on.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. nt

[Louis C. Phurye]

37. Load of crap?

Because Italy emerged from World War II with a strong Communist Party, domestic politics had elements of a civil war, explains Guido Moltedo, editor of Europa, a center-left daily in Italy. That meant ultra-conservative Cold Warriors battled the Communists not just electorally but through undercover operations in the intelligence world. "In addition to the secret service, SISMI, there was another, informal, parallel secret service," Moltedo says. "It was known as Propaganda Due."

Led by a neo-Fascist named Licio Gelli, Propaganda Due, with its penchant for exotic covert operations, was the stuff of conspiracy fantasies—except that it was real. According to The Sunday Times of London, until 1986 members agreed to have their throats slit and tongues cut out if they broke their oaths. Subversive, authoritarian, and right-wing, the group was sometimes referred to as the P-2 Masonic Lodge because of its ties to the secret society of Masons, and it served as the covert intelligence agency for militant anti-Communists. It was also linked to Operation Gladio, a secret paramilitary wing in NATO that supported far-right military coups in Greece and Turkey during the Cold War.

In 1981 the Italian Parliament banned Propaganda Due, and all secret organizations in Italy, after an investigation concluded that it had infiltrated the highest levels of Italy's judiciary, parliament, military, and press, and was tied to assassinations, kidnappings, and arms deals around the world. But before it was banned, P-2 members and their allies participated in two ideologically driven international black-propaganda schemes that foreshadowed the Niger Embassy job 20 years later. The first took place in 1980, when Francesco Pazienza, a charming and sophisticated Propaganda Due operative at the highest levels of SISMI, allegedly teamed up with an American named Michael Ledeen, a Rome correspondent for The New Republic. According to The Wall Street Journal, Pazienza said he first met Ledeen that summer, through a SISMI agent in New York who was working under the cover of a U.N. job.

The end result of their collaboration was a widely publicized story that helped Ronald Reagan unseat President Jimmy Carter, whom they considered too timid in his approach to winning the Cold War. The target was Carter's younger brother, Billy, a hard-drinking "good ol' boy" from Georgia who repeatedly embarrassed his sibling in the White House.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/07/yellowcake200607?currentPage=3

Also this:

Iran-Contra and assassination of Swedish prime minister Olof Palme
Main article: Iran-Contra affair
According to an interview given by former CIA agent Richard Brenneke and Ibrahim Razin to RAI journalist Ennio Remondino, P2 received funds from the CIA and had been involved in the Iran-Contra affair as well as in the strategy of tension; apparently the CIA supported it because of its determination to stage a coup should the Communist party take power. Due to the importance of the matters discussed, this interview gave rise to a letter from Italian president Francesco Cossiga to prime minister Giulio Andreotti. Extracts:

"Q: Excuse me, but your statements are very serious. You say that the P2 was a creation, the financial and organizational arm of the CIA to destabilize, to run covert operations in Europe?
Richard Brenneke: There is no doubt. The P2 since the beginning of the 1970s was used for the dope traffic, for destabilization in a covert way. It was done secretly to keep people from knowing about the involvement of the U.S. government. In many cases it was done directly through the offices of the CIA in Rome and in some other cases through CIA centers in other countries."
Richard Brenneke: "The P2 was involved in the operation for which I ended up in court, that is the delay in the liberation of the American hostages in Iran in 1980" (known as "October surprise").
Richard Brenneke claims to have met Licio Gelli in Paris in October 1980, in relationship to the "October surprise". According to him, William Casey, who would later become head of the CIA but was at that time manager of the Reagan-Bush campaign, was present, as well as Donald Gregg, who became ambassador to South Korea but at that time worked for the CIA and the U.S. National Security Council.

Also interviewed, agent Ibrahim Razin claimed that three days before Swedish prime minister Olof Palme's assassination, in 1986, Philip Guarino, a member of the Republican circle around George H.W. Bush, received a telegram signed by Licio Gelli and sent by one of his men, Umberto Ortolani, from "one of the southernmost regions of Brazil". The telegram said: "Tell our friend that the Swedish palm will be felled." As yet, Olof Palme's murder has not been solved.

According to Ibrahim Razin, "P2 was at the center, one of the main participants in the illegal arms traffic, which was connected to the drug traffic from the outset. P2 also made a substantial contribution to the recycling of large amounts of money used for this arms and drugs traffic from one country to another." Answering a question on CIA-P2 relations, Razin says: "Suffice it to see how the P2 was involved with Banco Ambrosiano and with Michele Sindona and how the CIA was involved with them in several financial manipulations. For example, in the United States the big scandal involving the S&L banks is big news. The Texas state prosecutor has found evidence of CIA involvement in the bankruptcy of many of these banks which used illegal funds for their operations. The man who knows a lot about this is Richard Brenneke, a former CIA agent from Oregon." <5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

[Swamp Rat]

32. "Thousand points of light... the New World Order."

Quoth George HW Bush.

[alittlelark]

40. I heard that earlier today - he made more sense than the MSM.

He was not hyperbolic, hysterical or 'determined' .... he just stated facts.

I found it fascinating - I was painting a kayak at the time.