Is Our Response To Falwell's Death Hurting Our Cause?

[earthlover]

Since Falwell's death, these boards have been inundated with posts, many of which demonstrated absolute glee at his death and judgementalism that rivaled Falwell's. As an anti-Falwell liberal Christian and as a Democrat, I find this very sad. Apparently, many on "our side" are capable of the same sort of blind hatred as we condemn in others.

Just about every form of rationalization has been offered as a defense mechanism for this hatred. One is that Falwell hated too....which I guess is the equivalent of two wrongs make it right. This is unconvincing. How can we show our disdain for hatred if we demonstrate it ourselves? Falwell's hatred was deplorable, but it is not particularly effective to act deplorably.

I have seen attempts to dehumanize Falwell and to compare him to Hitler. So much easier to hate someone who is not really a human being! Yet, as bad as Falwell was, there were no mass graves, no death camps, and no genocide.

I have seen attempts to personally attack Democratic posters who did not participate in this political food fight. Implications that they must support Falwell....sorta reminds me of the Bush thought process---either for us or you are one of the terrorists. Some were calling those who don't want to join in the bashing sanctimonious. Hatred has even been called just a normal emotion, just "venting", etc....which calls into question why people are upset with Falwell in the first place, since he could have just as easily have said the same thing about his own hateful rhetoric. Maybe his was venting too. Rationalization is really convenient. It is an equal opportunity defense mechanism.

I know that almost all of us, including me, disagree with just about everything Falwell said and did. However, we differ in how we react to his death.

What some of us fail to come to grips with is that Falwell is dead, and that none of the words we say are going to affect him in the slightest. Furthermore, he is not around to defend himself.

What some of the hate-mongerers are doing is preaching to the choir. Sure, some are going to pat them on the back because they feel the same way. But who else is going to be impressed?

Followers of Falwell, and there are MANY, are going to be really angry to read or hear about such hostility coming from our side, especially during this time. This will motivate them to fight their fight even harder, and they will have all kinds of ammunition now to further their cause and to try to convince everyone that Democrats are a bunch of hypocrites who show the same sort of hatred they disdain in others.

Members of the conservative media are already picking up on the profuse hatred being spewed forth on these boards. So, to those who think these boards are just a means to "vent," remember one thing: the whole world is watching.

So, what we are accomplishing is preaching to a choir of people who already think how we think, and firing up our opponents. So how is this going to play with the moderates and independents? I am sorry, but this part of the equation really makes me mad.

Most moderates, and most sane people, and ANYONE with common sense is going to see people dancing on the grave of a still-warm body as being reprehensible, stupid and just plain rude. We are NOT going to get any converts among independents by telling them that Falwell was a hater in such a way to make it clear we are haters too. And their typical response to grave dancing is going to be "get a life, bud..."

I know that some of you hate Falwell because of his views, but ponder this: every hateful post on these boards are going to turn moderates and independents OFF towards your causes. If you beat up on Falwell enough during this time, you are going to provoke more sympathy for him and disdain for you among the very voters you will need to make any meaningful changes in this country for your causes.

So, the question I have for you: do you have a political death-wish? Democrats have a great chance of winning in 08. However, the sort of thing I have seen about Falwell is going to help...the Republicans! They already are skilled at getting elected by painting us as anti-religion. Who would have dreamt that Democrats would act the way they have done this past day? It is a nightmare to me, but it is a dream come true for the Republicans.

[wuushew]

1. I would presume that most site traffic is from registered users

DU is not an advocacy group per say. What are you here for?

[IChing]

7. Seems to me someone with no profile wants to start

something.

[Occulus]

16. That's the THIRD TIME I've seen such a thing on this topic today.

Fascinating.

Three people... all of them so very, very deeply "concerned"... and all three have a diabled profile.

All three, saying pretty much the same things. Interesting, no?

[IChing]

18. Yep

[H2O Man]

22. But you must admit

there is a huge chance that the 2008 presidential election will be decided by millions of Americans who will identify the anti-Falwell threads on DU from 5-15 thru 5-17-07 as the single issue they used in making the choice to vote republican. I think we all need to get crew-cuts, wear two neck ties, and donate to the Moral Majority. It's the only way to save this thing we've all worked so hard for.

[yardwork]

25. LOL!

[IChing]

31. You are right We need to pay attention to Hot Air

I just cut my hair and found Jesus in the 700 club.
LOL

[H2O Man]

71. Epilogue

from Abbie Hoffman's 1980 "Soon to be a Major Motion Picture":

P.S. On second thoughts .....

Maybe I was wrong.

You know, I'm really sorry and I wanna come home. I love the flag. Blue for truth. White for right. Red for the blood our boys shed in war. I love my mother. I was wrong to tell kids to kill their parents. It was the children's fault. Spoiled, selfish brats made the sixties. We encouraged kids to leave home. Forgive me, Mother. I love Jesus, the smooth arch of his back, his long blond curls. Jesus died for all of us, even us Jews. Thank you, Lord. Pat and Debbie Boone introduced me to Jesus in their swimming pool. Thanks, Pat. Thanks, Debbie. Thanks, Jesus. I love Isreal as protector of Western civilization. Most of my thinking was the result of brain-washing by KGB agents. The FBI was rightl the KGB gave us money and dope as well as training. We met regularly at the Cuban mission to the UN.

I hate drugs. They are bad for you. Marijuana has a terrible effect on the brain. It makes you forget everything you learned in school. When you smoke it's hard to work. I used it to lure young virgins into bed. I'm very ashamed of this. Cocaine is murderous. It makes you sex crazy and gets uneducated people all worked up. Friends are kidding themselves when they say it is non-addictive. The nose knows, and the nose says no. More people should listen to their noses, and not to rich rock-and-roll singers and white house officials. LSD is the work of the Devil. I know many crippled babies whose thoughtless mothers were hooked on LSD. Laughing gas is no laughing matter. When it comes to drugs, only your doctor knows for sure. Take his advice, and pay him for his service. Stealing is a crime.

Once I burned money at the stock exchange. This was way out of line. People work hard to make money. Even stockbrokers work hard. No one works hard in Bangladesh -- that's why they are starving today and we are not. With inflation, everyone works extra hard for their money. It's not our fault or the fault of our government. If anyone's to blame it's the Arabs and those knee-jerking Europerans who cozy up to them by paying their prices for oil. We have no choice but to go along. We should starve the world to get our way. If we got our priorities straightened out, we wouldn't have to change the meters on the gas pumps. ....

Freedom is a precious right, not to be abused, but violence does not belong on television unless it's the news. Murders and rapes should be reported so people will know just what's happening downtown and will be more careful when they go out. .... Our system of democracy is the best in the world. I don't know much about other systems, but if you pick up the newspaper or turn on the TV, all the others seem to be falling apart. Good governments don't fall apart so easily. South Africa has been there for three hundred years. Don't get me wrong, they're not perfect down there. They work hard, but they should be nicer to their blacks, especially those who behave. I believe what Henry Ford said there recently: "Change takes time." Another three hundred years is not too long to wait for peaceful change. ....

How could I have said all those terrible things about Hubert Humphrey, rest his soul? Age takes its toll, but it teaches wisdom. When you're in the foxhole of life, you see things clearer than when the bands are playing and the crowds are cheering. I realize I can't repair all the damage to our system I feel responsible for, but I'm willing to roll up my sleeves and give it a try. It's damp underground. Now can I come back?
(pages 299 - 302)

[WillyT]

202. Thanks H2... I Needed That !!!

:yourock:

[mrcheerful]

58. Yeah but they would vote that way anyhow because Falwell told them that the democratic party

were godless and were destroying belief in god. It wouldn't matter if there was nothing but good things said about Falwell on DU, we are the party of satan followers who are destroying the country with welfare and social programs.

[H2O Man]

75. It's true.

While men like George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were fighting the Vietcong in the jungles of Southeast Asia -- so we didn't have to play dominoes with them over here -- cowards like Gore and Kerry were partying with food stamps and leftist college professors. No wonder we lose elections.

[earthlover]

78. yeah, but the difference is....

...if they tried this we could normally call them on it and ask them to show when we have acted anti-religiously. Now, they can quote us, and call US on it! We are giving them ammunition that I wish they did not have.

Again, I ask, why give the enemy ammunition? Better to cut off their supply lines.

[blondeatlast]

64. See, I knew you could edit it down to the hard nibs.

Thank you, H2OMan. :rofl:

[H2O Man]

119. I'm trying to save us

from the pain and suffering associated with losing. We need to focus on what is important, and not be distracted by meaningless issues such as global warming, war, and the economy. Instead, we need to begin working to change the DU epithets for Jerry to epitaphs wishing him a fond farewell.

[yardwork]

135. I've appreciated you for a long time, H2O Man, but today I love you!

:rofl:

[H2O Man]

181. Jerry's kids ....

I think that, like myself, you are concerned that these DU threads run the risk of offending the readers of the "Left Behind" series. Jerry Falwell noted their publication -- including being sold in video and cassette form -- was "probable the most influential religious publishing event since the Bible." (Time; 2-14-05) Evidence indicates that at least 33% of the "Left Behind" series fans can actually read, even if comprehension isn't their strong suit. The democrats might still get some of the votes of those who watch the video or listen to the cassette editions of "Left Behind." But dare we gamble with the future of our party? Shouldn't we play it safe? Is it worth it to take a chance of being Left Behind?

[Beetwasher]

194. Actually, I'm More Concerned About The Animal/Human Hybrids

That's a constituency we can't afford to alienate with our obvious anti-American (Falwell) bias and hatred. DU's opinions are closely monitored by this core constituency. I've heard it from a good source!

[H2O Man]

207. Lewft-handed

animal/human hybrids who walk with their right foot in the gutter read DU, even if they do not tend to post frequently. They may be "turned off" (to use the hip lingo they love) by the anti-Falwell comments. Dare we risk that? If the '08 election goes to the USSC, it could be THE factor, especially among those who watch Bill O'Reilly.

[yardwork]

199. After we win over fans of Left Behind, freepers, and Sean Hannity

if we're really, really nice we can bring additional groups into our fold.

Another thread has already mentioned white supremacists - clearly ripe for conversion to the Democratic Party. The historical roots connecting our two groups (family!) can work in our favor, as long as we remember to mind our manners....

Other groups that are prime for the picking include:

Log Cabin Republicans - they're halfway ours already. But we have to be nice!

PNACers - others have noted their "neo-liberal" roots, which they share with the Nazis and eugenicists of the past. If we Democrats can only let go of our intolerant insistence on human rights, which is currently a serious barrier to recruiting this group...

[IChing]

203. Bingo!!!

:) :evilgrin: :toast: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

But we will never let the sardonic people in right like you and me?
Wait, I think you and I are the founders of that group.
The DNP is a big tent..........Pee Wee Herman was a genius.
I mean that without being sardonic.

[Occulus]

.

:rofl:

I think you personally ought to chip in on the thread about respecting our Shrub in the future and give your version of respect and sober reflection regarding His Loyal Highness...

[H2O Man]

131. But what will

Sean Hannity say? This is the question that haunts the future of the democratic party. Do we risk losing the respect of Paul Wolfowitz? The confidence of Donald Rumsfeld? We need to give more thought to our thoughtlessness.

[Redstone]

26. Oh, do they, now? Thank you for pointing that out. It DOES mean something.

Redstone

[LostinVA]

84. Yup, 'tis

[melody]

66. Bingo

Whole lot of that going around today.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. Sean Hannity read DU yesterday and talked about the hateful posts

on his radio show. Lots of conservatives come here expressly to pick up quotes to use against us.

[Moochy]

20. Stop trying to Please Frank (Luntz)

quoting Arianna Huffington, from a recent Real Time with Bill Maher. Her point being that if you are trying to please right wingers, then its a waste of time.

[yardwork]

23. Oh that's awful! Sean Hannity DISAPPROVES of us?!

What'll we do what'll we do???!!!

[LostinVA]

88. I know, he's someone whose approval I sooo want

[yardwork]

117. If we lose the approval of Sean Hannity, we'll never win another election again!!!

Wait.

[Forkboy]

50. And they'd find them if we were quoting Jesus directly.

[yardwork]

120. Yes, here's the typical pattern.

This is run by Rove's boys. A paid disruptor posts something a little over the top on a Democratic board. Said paid disruptor then sends a screen shot of their post to Central Distribution, which forwards it to Sean and the others, who immediately quote it on the air as an example of the hate-filled vicious left. Then other paid disruptors post handwringers about how we're "just as bad as the other guys" and "failing in our mission."

When the paid disruptors get a little lazy sometimes they skip Step #1 (actually posting) and Sean and the boys just make shit up and attribute it to us.

What purpose does this serve? I dunno, except that it's our tax money at work!

[melody]

72. Goody -- Hannity's hate is a compliment to the sane

:applause:

[NoPasaran]

188. Fuck him and feed him fish heads

That goes for all the conservative voidoids too.

[L. Coyote]

192. They post it themselves, ratfu*kers, and quote themselves, like the NY TIMES

and Cheney!!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

211. We wouldn't want to upset that fat toddler, would we?

[valerief]

2. It was fun to celebrate his death yesterday. But to go on about it

today is so pre 5/16.

[rurallib]

3. I had such a spiritual uplift yesterday

I am over it. I remembered who is pre-si-dent

[mitchum]

44. LMAO!

nicely done :)

[journalist3072]

4. I said it yesterday and I'll say it once again today

It's at times like these, when I can't tell the difference between DU and Free Republic. Since yesterday, there really has been no difference between Democratic Underground and Free Republic. The hatred coming from this site scares me.

Why is it that some people don't understand that you can absolutely despise everything that a person stood for. But you can also have compassion for that person's children, spouse and others when that person dies.

And it's not just Jerry Falwell. This morning, in one of the threads announcing Yolanda King's death, someoone replied that God got it wrong and too bad it was not Bernice King. I was just floored.

And it makes me almost ashamed to be a registered member of this board.

[yardwork]

32. You can't tell the difference between DU and Free Republic?

Let me help you. Go the front door of Free Republic. See the part where it says what Free Republic is against? Yes, that paragraph. The one that says that they are against feminism, socialism, and homosexuality-ism.

Do you see anything comparable on the front door of DU? Anything that points out whole segments of the population as deserving of scorn and hatred?

Let me know when you finish reading and pondering.

[SacredCow]

47. I agree with you...

But we're in the minority here, as near as I can tell....

It's not that I don't understand the reasoning behind the "celebrations." Of course I do- I'm one of the homosexuals he hated so much. I just think that there's something to be said for taking the high road in this case. Yes, the FReepers gloat when a prominent Democrat passes on, but the fact is that I hold myself to a (much) higher standard than that.

So my reaction upon hearing his death? "Oh, really? Oh well- he was no spring chicken." What else needs to be said, really? His absence will be no more or less remembered than Anna Nicole Smith.

[RaleighNCDUer]

80. Much less remembered than Anna Nicole.

Nobody's going to be publishing HIS diaries.

(Tho I might wish they would, so we could see the evil exposed.)

[SacredCow]

113. But why waste your time on either?

That's my point. They were both tragic fuckwits- one of them was just less self-destructive than the other.

So he's dead. Big, honkin' deal. Celebrating his death only validates his influence. To my way of thinking, it'd be a helluva lot more insulting to him and his sheeple if the reaction had been, "Jerry Who?"

[Forkboy]

55. So leave

"I'm so ashamed.......see you all tomorrow!"

[yardwork]

121. Gotta clock in, you know!

[Bluerthanblue]

161. "love it or leave it" eh?

don't ever challenge people to question their actions-

If you do, prepare to be destroyed???

Hmmm.... and this is the "party" of 'tolerance' 'inclusion' 'individual thought'????

fie on this crap.

You give creedence to the comparison with words like that-IMO- which is every bit as valid as yours- and no one should feel the NEED to leave because we don't agree- :shrug:

THAT notion is FACIST at it's core-

may you know peace,
blu

[Forkboy]

174. Nope

And it makes me almost ashamed to be a registered member of this board.

That's not challenging people to questions their actions.It's a predictable attempt to guilt and shame others into agreeing with them.

I would rather that people stay,but if someone is truly this upset about being a member I wonder why they do stay. :shrug:

And my comment afterwards was a joke about the people saying things like that who then come right back the next day,shame or not,because they know that DU is still a pretty cool place to be.They know full well that,one or two days notwithstanding,DUers are not even remotely like Freepers.And the charge that we are is trotted out to shame and guilt those they disagree with while reinforcing their own feelings of higher morality.

And if you haven't already,I hope you know peace as well.

[Bluerthanblue]

197. if you'll

humor me a second--?

The post you replied to said more than that they were ashamed- it pointed out that there ARE other people impacted by Falwells death (his family) and questioned the lack of care for them. If people simply don't care- if all that matters is 'venting'- then they should just say so- don't you think? Is it really NOT ok to disagree?

You mention that there are a 'few' days when DU is like FR- (a place I don't go, but know about from it being brought here) I think that you might be kind of quietly agreeing that some of what we are experiencing is pretty much the flip side of the same coin- the DU version of intolerance and "ugly americanism"-

I know what you mean about people saying they are going to leave, and yet staying. But the posters on the other side from you weren't saying they were leaving- they were stating the fact that they felt alienated from this community- and your "leave" was icing on the 'cake' (in my OWN view of the situation, which is no more or less valid than yours).

I'm not 'ashamed' by the posts here, but I am saddened. I have absolutely NO 'love' for what Falwell preached, and taught. I didn't find the man someone I would like to know, or who I could respect- I understand the harm his words actions were instrumental in nurturing - on the abortion issue, I fear we have yet begun to feel it's impact-
But given all this, is the answer for 'us' to adopt his 'game plan'??- ie. Demonize those who you choose to call your 'enemy'- don't question the 'party' line- don't EVER fail to return hurt for hurt, or not demand their eyes for the ones lost on "our" side. again IMO-

We've spent eternity doing it this way, and where are we now???
I can think of 3 people off the top of my head who advocated trying a different path- and they were all murdered for it-

But death sometimes isn't the worst option-

hey- I'm a dreamer

and it's ok whatever you want to think about me-

I have known peace- and am sure I will again. I hope we can all find the way there -

blu

[ProfessorGAC]

210. All I Can Say Is: Duh!

The Professor

[Jamastiene]

221. Take a look at the graphics in the upper left hand corner

or the pages to tell which site is which. That's one clue.

In a way, I could almost agree with you about not being able to see a difference (other than the graphics). I would say that the "hold your tongues lest we upset right wing republicans and they say something bad about us" bunch give the place a definite FR feel. Plus there was the one post asking if they were the only one who liked Falwell. I'll never forget that giant vote of support from that person on DU.

[Deja Q]

5. Um, yes...

n/t

[enough already]

6. I don't care who is watching

One more dead nazi is a good thing.

[William769]

8. Who gives a shit, the bastard is dead.

"a political death-wish", yea right. :eyes:

[Redstone]

9. No, it's not hurting our cause at all. So the freeps have a field day complaining

about us? So what? I, for one, don't give a fuck about what they think.

Nor does anyone else.

Redstone

[H2O Man]

14. Well said. n/t

[Madspirit]

39. I love Redstone

Sometimes we agree; sometimes we don't be Redstone is always very cool.

I agree with your post completely!
Lee

[Redstone]

54. Thank you. I may not always be cool, but I'll always be Redstone. That, I can promise.

I've been Redstone for over fifty years now, and I'm not likely to change that.

Redstone

[gatorboy]

40. A voice of reason from the woods.

[mrcheerful]

179. Really, the wing nuts are just like the nosey old maid that lived in everyones neighborhood

and to get attention would call parents and police every time a kid made a noise or stepped on her property. When kids avoided her property and stopped paying attention to the old maid, then things would be made up on the kids, the one I grew up with would steal our baseballs when they landed in her yard, then break her own windows then blame us kids for it. I guess we can say the right wing nuts are all busy bodies that can't keep their nose where it belongs.

[Raven]

10. Well, I doubt that the whole world is watching and I don't think

that there is any way to minimize the damage Falwell did. I didn't join the dance but I can understand the depth of disgust for this man. Anyone who votes for one of these Republican thugs who endorsed torture last night because of DU'ers going a little overboard on Falwell yesterday wasn't with us in the first place.

You should consider giving the DU'ers who "danced" a little of what Falwell never had...understanding and tolerance.

[BurtWorm]

11. I overheard five people on the bus saying they would vote Republican because of what DUers said.

Mot really.

:patriot:

[DearAbby]

13. Hey...I just speak for myself

I am just an old woman, who is tired of this shit. Found a website message board with like minded people. I dont have this grandeouse mindset that what I type on a message board is more, than just words on a computer screen.

I type to communicate, I come here to find out news. and what the take of that news, with others who think as I. My words here are nothing more than that. this is a place to vent as well.

Some of us has taken the crap falwell has spewed for 40 yrs. I view it as seeds Falwell has sown is now baring fruit. He spewed/sown the hate...What you sow, you shall also reap. It's harvest time.

Honesty should never hurt a cause. Truth should never harm a cause.

[treestar]

15. He doesn't have to be as bad as Hitler to have crossed the line

and be on the same side of it.

Would you have been respectful of Hitler on the day of his death? Stalin? Pol Pot? There's a limit. Those individuals were human too. It's where we draw the line.

And Falwell and his ilk would be Hitlers in the right circumstances.

[Arugula Latte]

17. ...

"Followers of Falwell, and there are MANY, are going to be really angry to read or hear about such hostility coming from our side..."

Shouldn't we be DONE appeasing these people!!

It hasn't worked in the past. It won't work now.

The thing they understand is an all-out battle.

Like it or not, this is a war for the future of our country. Us vs. Them. I am furious at what They have done to this nation. I am for Us.

[earthlover]

41. who said anything about appeasing them?

I am in favor of defeating them. Getting them to fight harder is not particularly a good strategy. Especially if we make a lot of moderates think we are as hateful as the right is.

Yes, this is a battle. We gotta fight smart. Not just do what makes us feel good and vent.

We are not going to win if we make this a battle of us vs them. That is what they do. We need to expose the right for what it is: dangerous to the Constitution, and this us vs them thing is part of this danger! We are not going to expose the danger of the right if we open ourselves up to the enemy being able to point to us and say we do the same thing.

Fight smart. We have already helped them get into power by sounding anti-religion.

[conscious evolution]

82. 'Not just do what makes us feel good and vent.'

Sometimes venting is just what is needed.
I hope it scares the hell out of the right.Seeing so much vitriol aimed at them has to be having some kind of effect on them.
Every voice should be raised in outrage over what that man helped bring about in this country.

[David Zephyr]

19. Get real.

When cruel and evil people perish, it is a reason to celebrate. Were Jews "hurting" their cause when they celebrated the death of Adolf Hitler?

I will celebrate when Osama bin Laden is brought to justice and when he dies, I will celebrate.

Jerry Falwell incited violence against my gay, lesbian and trans gender brothers and sisters for nearly forty years. How many violent deaths, heartache and suicides can be attributed to the hate he spawned in this country? How many died without care and love from AIDS because of Falwell's cruel pronouncements? Check out the AIDS Memorial Quilt from just those early years in the 1980's when this son of a bitch railed that your Christian God was punishing homosexuals!

When nearly one out of three of every teen suicide is that of a gay teenager, a great percentage who live in fundamentalist families, don't lecture me about rejoicing that the single loudest voice against my community has finally been silenced!

I am beyond myself with joy that the very wicked Jerry Falwell is dead and can no longer hurt my brothers and sisters!

Below is a photo of the AIDS quilt in Washington. I was there.

I celebrate this creep's death. Yes.

And so should you!

[earthlover]

28. so now that he dead, are the suicides going to stop?

If we act politically to STENGTHEN the radical right....and attacking Falwell during this time is definately going to strengthen it....aren't we cutting off our nose to spite our face?

Why don't we channel our energies to win victories instead of making ourselves look foolish?

Tromping on Falwell's grave is not going to help one iota. It will only make our opponents more determined and moderates wonder why we are complaining about hatred.

[yardwork]

35. What nonsense. Nothing said here is strengthening the radical right.

The radical right has a clear agenda, and what we say here on DU is nothing to them. They care about money and power. Period.

I'm not tromping on anyone's grave, and in my opinion, you are making only yourself look foolish with this carrying on.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. Bullshit.

Those who hate what anyone here says about Falwell will hate us anyway. We are not going to convince them.

Any moderates who stumble across this stuff will see our despising of Falwell, and they will also see the reasons for it - with examples from his anti-misegenation (if that's too big a word, trolls, he hated blacks and whites sharing bodily fluids) of the 50s and 60s to his war on AIDS research in the 90s to his promoting violence against gays in the immediate past.

He was, until the day of his death, a bigoted, racist, sexist, homophobic pig.

Got a problem with that?

[maggiegault]

195. Because Of Falwell's Politics and Buddies, I Just Buried My Brother This Past Weekend

I'm supposed to mourn because someone who caused so much pain died of his own fatty crapulence, when I just buried a 28 year old soldier who died going on a mission to nowhere?

I don't think so, and I don't give a hot damn in a whorehouse what any warmongering freeper thinks of me or any other liberal.

You want compassion? Have it for the Iraqis who have been murdered during the course of their "liberation," a "liberation" strenuously advocated by Falwell the hatemonger.

[David Zephyr]

206. I'm so sorry, maggiegault

that you have lost your very own brother at the tender age of just 28. He's a hero to me.

And yes, that's where our compassion should correctly be: with those precious souls like your brother and not a fraudulent hate-peddling preacher.

And thank you for giving this thread the proper perspective it needed.

Again, I am truly sorry that you have lost your brother.

--David Zephyr

[yardwork]

21. "I have seen attempts to dehumanize Falwell..."

Nah, he did that all by himself.

[Madspirit]

24. You said it Yardwork!...n/t

[yardwork]

37. Don't let the worry trolls get us down!

:toast:

[blondeatlast]

69. Word! Well said. nt

[stillcool]

27. You only get what you give... n/t

[bigtree]

29. our cause?

not mine

[KG]

30. fuck falwell, and fuck his followers too

oh, and fuck moronic moderates and idiot independents if the don't understand the difference between some folks blowing off steam on a message board and the real hate mongering engendered by scum like falwell.

sheesh.

[rucky]

33. I'm not gleeful, but if we can't say what we feel here at the DU...

where can we?

[depakid]

34. This is irrevelevant- and the quicker people see that, the better

The far right will NEVER change- nor will their enablers.

Pandering to them in the vain hope that they might only looks weak and naive.

[Madspirit]

36. Kumbaya My Lord Kumbaya...

Are we all holding hands now and singing?

Oh, just btw, I don't give SHIT what the RW thinks of ME. They have brutalized me my entire life. We did some venting. BIG FUCKING DEAL.
Lee

[EFerrari]

48. LOL! Lee, you crack me up. Thanks!

:rofl:

[gatorboy]

38. Thanks for your concern.

We'll be fine, thank you. :hi:

[yardwork]

137. LOL! Another of my favorite posts from the past two days.

While I didn't celebrate when I heard that whathisname had died, I sure have laughed a lot reading posts in response to the moronic handwringing here.

[zanne]

42. The jig is up on "polite dialogue" between us...

Falwell tried to trivialize the deaths of 3,000 by making it an "evil" act caused by liberals. We were so good for such a long time. I'm sure that if one of our top guys dies, the Repubs will have much worse things to say. They always top us on the "slime o'meter".

[earthlover]

68. as we sow....so shall we reap

Of course if one of us dies they are going to have much worse things to say. That is exactly my point! Us doing the same thing just justifies in their minds adding to the cycle of hatred.

Sad thing is we are not going to win any elections by just getting the die-hard Democrats in our boat. They are already there. Dancing on Falwell's grave just makes moderates less likely to trust us as a party that represents them.

You folks can blame the other side for your hatred, and the other side will blame you for theirs.....but hate does not appeal to moderates.

Sometimes the best way is to just wait a few days to let the enemy bury their dead. There is precedent for this in warfare. We can show similar restraint. Not to do so is self-defeating.

[DearAbby]

:shrug:

Tell the truth and shame the devil. I will not be ashamed of what I feel and how I expressed it on a message board. I dont care what you, or anybody else thinks.

This is a battered wife syndrome...how do I know? I lived it, same symptoms, same reactions to abuse. "Maybe if I make myself better, he wont beat me."

Take a stand, you're free! Speak your mind! That is liberty!

[rocktivity]

43. There was nothing humane, pious, Christian nor American about Falwell

And while I honestly extend my deepest condolances to his friends and loved ones, I always have.

:headbang:
rocknation

[EFerrari]

45. What crap. n/t

[Bunny]

46. Oh for fuck sake.

Get over it. It will be a cpld day in hell before I give a shit about what any freeper, or other "concerned" person, thinks about DU, us, me, our "cause", etc. Honestly, this is getting more than a little annoying.

[Forkboy]

56. Tip of the hat to you

Just for having a Dan Blocker picture!!!

:)

[Bunny]

57. Dan was The Man, wasn't he?

:hi:

[Forkboy]

73. He was my kindred spirit on the show.

As a kid I always related to the Hoss character the most,and thought his mixture of kindness and toughness was cool.

[Redstone]

60. Jeez, and here I thought that *I* got right to the point. I salute you for your directness.

And if "directness" isn't a word, it should be.

Redstone

[earthlover]

74. listen, i am no freeper

I am an extremely liberal Democrat.

Now if you would want to discuss things rationally or logically instead of using foul language and false innuendo, fine. But please don't tell me what my "cause" is.

My cause is getting Democrats elected. My cause is fighting the intolerance of the radical religious right, and Falwell has been a prime example of my political and religious opponent.

It PAINS me to see us act in such a way as to HELP the other side. And if you can't even discuss things calmly with me without using foul language how are you going to win over anyone less liberal than myself?

[Bunny]

92. You can choose to interpret my response any way you like.

I don't give a flying fuck.

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. If you are a "extremely liberal Democrat"

how's it you refer to hard core Democrats as "them" in a previous post, rather than "we"?

Just askin'.

With no profile, it is easy to leap to conclusions.

[earthlover]

115. it is easy to jump to conclusions if you quote me out of context!

Here is the rest of the quote you conveniently left out...."Sad thing is we are not going to win any elections by just getting the die-hard Democrats in our boat. They are already there. Dancing on Falwell's grave just makes moderates less likely to trust us as a party that represents them".

Note: I DID use "we", and "us" as I have in other posts. I have also used them to denote the right in other posts.

Taking things out of context is a cheap shot.

[RaleighNCDUer]

125. Gramatically speaking you are refering to the die hard Democrats

as persons seperate from "us" and "our" boat. When you say "they are already there" you are clearly showing separation from "them" and "this place".

"We" die hard Democrats are already "here" in the boat, not somewhere out there.

"Dancing on Falwell's grave just makes moderates less likely to trust us as a party that represents them".

So, your definition of 'moderate' is somebody who is favorably inclined toward Falwell?

That says as much about you as your lack of a profile.

[earthlover]

148. no my definition of a moderate is not that...

....I was merely pointing out the obvious. Moderates are not going to respond to us if we are acting like hateful people dancing on a grave. If we act that way, moderates WILL be driven away from us . This is the way to drive moderates into the camp of the Republicans.

And it's sad. Right now, a lot of moderates are getting more and more skeptical of the religious right. There are a lot of them that could vote our way. By acting like fools, we are pushing them away! Talk about taking defeat out of the jaws of victory!!!

Sad to say, it is stuff like this that gave Falwell the ability to paint us as anti-religion. Even though it always was a minority of Democrats that were anti-religion.

So, by all means folks, lets dance on Wellstone's grave. We will only be making it easier for the next Fallwell to be annointed by calling us anti-religion.

[MzNov]

147. You are just not for real.

How's that working out for you??? Winning over anyone on DU who isn't quite as "liberal" as you??

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Pardon me, but this is one of the funniest and most obviously transparent threads I've ever seen on DU. And that says a lot !!

I can use the worst foul language and usually do, to describe the pack of corrupt moronic murdering bastards who are running our country, along with their right wing nut job fundy sons of bitches. And I am proud of it. And it's not helping the other side.

They come here to learn something. They could use all the help they can get !! Ferrrrchrisssakes.

:bounce:

[devilgrrl]

227. That's nothing.... I'm a Astronaut!!! Didn't you know?

[devilgrrl]

230. sniff sniff...

[Scout]

89. woo hoo! thank you Bunny--my sentiments exactly! n/t

[Madspirit]

140. Hoss! It's Hoss!

I LOVE him. ...and I love your post.
Lee

[mitchum]

49. Fuck Falwell and all those who respect his "humanity"

good riddance to the vile beast

[earthlover]

85. yup...let's dehumanize Falwell and add a measure of profanity....

...that'll win over people! Ever get convinced of an arguement by someone's profanity?

[MzNov]

103. Who are we trying to win over ?????

freepers??? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[mitchum]

105. Apparently you aren't aware of MLK's "I Have A Fuckin' Dream" speech

Why don't you take your handwringing concern underneath another bridge?

[earthlover]

127. martin luther king jr did not use the f word in his speach, thank you very much

And he was much more persuasive as a result.

[Forkboy]

130. LMAO

Cut that out! :spank:

:)

[Bluerthanblue]

165. aparently you either never heard this

speech, or if you did, never understood it.

If returning hate-for hate- if delighting in another persons suffering, or being APATHETIC to our own potential harm is ok with you-

MLKjr. gave his life in an effort to defeat that kind of messed up attitude.

And if you don't like the OP's concern- maybe you should say so in a reasoned way- and be satisfied with that- I won't encourage you to leave- This isn't a place that tells people who disagree to hit the road- despite what you may desire.

:shrug:

peace,
blu

[yardwork]

138. Why not? It works for the Republicans all the time!

They LOVE it when their leaders use foul language. It means that they're strong and manly, according to people like Jerry Falwell, who once said that all feminists needed was a strong, take-charge man to "tell them what time it is."

[Madspirit]

142. Fuckity Fuck Fuck

I am not here to convince any RWer of anything. They have brutalized me my whole life. They can rot in hell. All of them.

HOW FUCKING DARE YOU TELL A GAY PERSON TO "HUMANIZE" FALWELL. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU.
Lee

[sutz12]

51. I think you have me confused with somebody who gives a shit...

If there really was a god that believed in and meted out justice, Falwell's grave would be covered for eternity with a carpet of brown, dead grass.

If the worms can turn his carcase into plant food, it would be the first time he was worth anything to the world.

[karlrschneider]

52. As if any Foulball supporter would be on our side anyway.

Where's that damn fiddle when I need it?...oh,
:nopity:

[earthlover]

90. you missed the point I was trying to make

The radical right is not going to change. Neither is the left. However, if we are going to have victory, we need moderates to side with us, not the right.

Acting like a bunch of rude, crude grave dancers is NOT going to win ANY moderates over to our side.

Already the right accuses us of being anti-religion. We do ourselves no good by removing all doubt!!!!

[karlrschneider]

94. Oh, now I understand. OH, WOE IS ME, the dear holy Reverend Falwell has died!

What a terrible tragedy! He was the kindest, gentlest man who ever lived...well since the other Jesus...and I can't imagine a world without his smiling countenance and selfless compassion!




(Think they'll buy it?)

[RaleighNCDUer]

104. Fuck the moderates.

As Jim Hightower so aptly said, the only things in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead armadillos.

We don't win by going to the middle. We win by showing the middle that we are RIGHT in what we think. Anybody who is scared away by foul language is not someone who thinks, and those who refuse to think are already lost, so fuck him.

[Madspirit]

143. Right On NCevilDUer!

...and I am a Texan and I LOVE Jim Hightower.
Lee

[mitchum]

112. And just HOW are those "moderates" going to find out about "our" glee...

over that grifting dirtbag's death?

[Individualist]

123. That post sounds like

it came straight from the DLC talking points book. The only thing worse than a neocon is a neocon enabler. :puke:

[earthlover]

160. so you think using profanity and dancing on graves will help us win elections?

...Then don't tell me.....tell Hillary, Obama, Edwards, et al!

And by the way. When either of them uses the F word in an appearance or dances on a grave of a still warm body....then I will know they thought it was a smart idea!

And I guess if one of them doesn't dance on Falwell's grave that means he/she too is DLC. SARC

But don't anyone hold your breath. All of the candidates know it would be stupid to carry on like many on this board has. That is why they won't do it. Not because they are DLC.

I am getting a bit irritated at the personal attacks and people putting words in my mouth and disputing my sincerity as a Democrat and now even implying I like DLC. Somebody even made issue that I ended a question with a question mark . I am sorry if I am not a member of an elite clique here

[Individualist]

171. ROFL

[Spazito]

53. Oh damn, and me without a "concerned" smiley.....

hmmmm......wait......I found an appropriate smiley that adequately expresses my "concern"






:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[sheerjoy]

59. I guess it depends on the cause

it sure makes us look like commmodeheads.

[blondeatlast]

61. "Absolute glee"? Cite, please? I've seen nothing even close. nt

[Rosemary2205]

62. I could not disagree with you more.

The dancing on Falwell's grave is almost all about his hateful speech that helped mobilize a nation to terrorize the most vulnerable amongst us. It has nothing to do with the "Reverend" in front of his name.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

153. I once saw a troll here say Rick Santorum was hated only because he was a Catholic.

In fact, I think that troll is still not tombstoned. Lemme check.

[Nikki Stone1]

63. "Blind hatred" is different from hating a person for cause

The anger at Falwell that you see here on the board is due to his own actions and statements. Nothing blind about it.

[ComerPerro]

65. get over yourself. Or do you think Falwell had merits and value that we are too blind to see?

After all, calling hatred of him "blind hatred" implies that you think there was something more to him, that he had redeeming qualities and our refusal to see them is a sign of our own personal faults.

So why not start by telling us just what you thought was so fantastic and wonderful and redeeming about him?

[earthlover]

96. please don't put words in my mouth

I cannot think of anything I agree with Falwell on, and I am totally against everything he was for.

Especially I abhor his hatred.

What gives me pause is seeing the same sort of blind hatred on our side the past couple of days.

But, agree or disagree with him, he had a family. He had children. He had grandchildren. He had lots of admirers too .

It is not just a slap in Falwell's face all this crap I see. It is also a slap in the face of everyone in his family at such a time.

I ask you to take a minute and put yourself out of the political world and answer how you would feel if someone said things about your mother or father comparable to the things we have seen here on the day of his/her death. I dare say that regardless of whether you agreed or disagreed with your parent, you would likely be hurt by such comments. You may think Falwell was Satan, but what has his family, children, grandchildren done to deserve this?

So, I don't know Falwell, but I think almost anyone could see that kicking a man when he is down is not considered good form, and acting gleefully upon someone's death is going to backfire.

Except people whose hatred has blinded to the consequenses it would have.

As in blind hatred.

[RaleighNCDUer]

108. Anyone in his family who doesn't share his beliefs has, no doubt,

been ostracised from that family. Anyone in his family who shares his beliefs is not worth our concern.

So who the fuck are we supposed to be worried about?

[Bluerthanblue]

162. can I ask you a serious question?

do you really mean this?

"Anyone in his family who shares his beliefs is not worth our concern."

???

[RaleighNCDUer]

166. Yes, I mean it. If they share his bigotry and hatred they already

have decided to hate me and my family and friends. So why should I be concerned about what they think?

[Bluerthanblue]

196. I guess you've

decided 'they' aren't worthy of anything, based NOT on what 'they' as individuals have personally done (to you- or anyone else) but because of who "they" Are- again, "according to YOU".

And this is fundementally different from the Falwell bigotry how ??

[RaleighNCDUer]

208. You're making shit up.

I have decided they are not worth my concern precisely because "IF THEY SHARE HIS BIGOTRY" they have already decided to heat me, my friends and my family.

Are you suggesting that I need to know every individual Nazi to hate Nazism? None of them ever did anything personally to me, after all, tho a couple of them shot at two of my uncles. They exterminated 6 million relatives who I never knew, but I don't know them personally.

Fuck that. A Nazi is a Nazi. A bigot is a bigot. If a bigot I don't know agrees with a bigot I do know, I can claim some knowing of that other. And I'm not going to waste time concerning myself with bigots.

[Bluerthanblue]

209. define

bigotry if you will-

[RaleighNCDUer]

212. Going for a 'Gotcha!'?

You can call me a bigot if you like - that's no skin off my nose. So here's your 'gotcha' - I hate all Nazis. I don't care if some of them are nice guys - they want to kill me, therefore I hate them.

If a bigot is someone who is intolerant of someone else's beliefs, well, I guess I'm a bigot because my tolerance ends when it impinges on me, my family, and my constitution.

Falwell and his ilk can believe anythig they want - if they leave me alone I'll leave them alone - but when they put those beliefs into the public arena, try to turn our nation into a theocracy then they've overstepped the bounds of my tolerance.

And what is the difference between me and them? As stated above, if they leave me alone I'll leave them alone. They, however, by their core beliefs, CANNOT leave me alone. I represent a huge proportion of what they hate, and if they have their way I will be stripped of my citizenship, exiled, or killed.

Think I'm exaggerating? Just look at what Falwell, and Dobson, and Robertson have said. Look at the murderous 'Left Behind' books of LaHaye. Atheists cannot be good citizens. In the End Times, the Jews will be slaughtered (final solution, much?). Gays should be killed. AIDS (or 9/11, or Katrina) is god's punishment on the evil gays, liberals, feminists, atheists, what have you. How much preaching of hatred does it take to create a Tim McVeigh or Eric Rudolph?

And I'm supposed to worry about what these people might think? I'm supposed to cry crocodile tears over these fascists?

NEVER AGAIN means stopping this shit before it gets that far. It CAN happen here.

[Bluerthanblue]

213. no, and I often

find myself fighting battles that only exist in my own mind, because I make assumptions about other people- Assumptions about why they believe what they do- about WHAT they believe- about what and who they as an INDIVIDUAL are truly 'about'- and I'm trying to stop making this mistake.

Which is why I didn't want to 'assume' I knew where you were thinking, and meaning.

When I read what you have written, and it makes me uncomfortable, and disturbs me, I can either choose to label YOU as something negative- or take the time and effort to try and find out the truth- And trust that you'll be kind enough to answer, and answer honestly- which you have done and I really appreciate.

I believe I understand the point you are making- And I also agree that Falwell encouraged and promoted looking not at each and every person on this earth as the individuals we are, but as "masses" who can be marginalized, judged and found unworthy, not by virtue of "the content of their character"- but on the basis of something that defines them in "bulk" as being inherently defective.

One thing you may not realize about Falwell- his dislike for people he considered to be "liberal Christians" was pretty unparalleled- The hottest seats in hell are reserved for 'them'- 'they' had 'seen the light' and not 'walked the line'- so they are doubly doomed.

I agree with "never again"- I agree that we as people- should NEVER allow our brothers and sisters, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, neighbors to be judged, silenced, persecuted, destroyed because of

PREJUDICE-
A forejudgment; bias; partiality; preconceived opinion. A leaning toward one side of a cause for some reason other than a conviction of its justice.(law encyclopedia)

I am not trying to tell YOU to be- believe- do ("cry crocodile tears") anything.

I am trying to understand the way you think and why. If our discussion changes either of us, I hope it is for the 'better'.

And I thank you for taking time to talk to me-
peace,
blu

[earthlover]

163. so now the truth comes out....

...some of you have said that the hatred you have is because of all the powerful things Falwell has done to harm others. But now you say even members of his family who share his beliefs are worthy of hatred!....

So why stop there? Why not hate his entire church? And all right wing Christians for that matter who share his views? For that matter, all Republicans. And,let's throw in all the moderates who don't side with us if we hate the rest. Pretty soon, the number of people we hate is pretty huge, isn't it? Maybe almost as huge as the number of people Falwell hated! Problem with this is, who is gonna be left to be on our side if we hate everyone else?

The problem is some of you seem to hate people based on their political beliefs. That is, of course, what Falwell and his ilk did, but it does not make it right.

If we are going to have any sense of civility in this country, we need to get past that. If we see the country as one big war to fight, what are we going to get if we win the struggle, a broken nation teetering on the brink of civil war?

[RaleighNCDUer]

173. I said no such thing

so you can fuck off.

Freeper.

[ComerPerro]

198. blind hatred is saying that lesbians and abortionists caused 9/11

Being glad Falwell is dead, because he was a complete asshole and was a negative, destructive influence on society, is an informed opinion.

[sam sarrha]

67. only amongst his followers who hate us anyway

[ima_sinnic]

70. a "nightmare" to learn that people here express themselves honestly?

so I suppose you want a nice antiseptic website where everybody contributes a phony nostalgic remembrance of a saintly, intelligent, kind, compassionate, thoughtful, tolerant, peace-loving, devoted, wonderful man? you know, I'm sure the 700 Club and countless other empty, phony, manipulative "christian" forums will please you no end.

I remember when Nixon died. One minute he was the scum of the earth, but all of a sudden, upon his death, he was elevated to some kind of "statesman" and great person. unbelievable! but despite that, after the BS about him had died down, his true legacy could not help but shining through, just as Falwell will always be remembered as a hate-monger and false witness no matter how much the turd in the WH and other bloviating "christians" hold him up as some kind of person of substance and worth.

the man was a subhuman scum and I rejoice for the sake of the downtrodden and scorned of the world that he is gone. you should too and stop scolding us like some uptight glove-wearing 1950s mother about what is "proper." you should care more about them than you do about what some idiot who thinks Falwell was great is going to "think of us." and by the way, do you REALLY think his family would read the forums at DU looking for sympathy? and too bad, so sad, but their relative was a fucking prick!

in case you haven't noticed, like it or not, war was declared on decent people back around 1979 when Gingrich put out his Contract On America--actually, back in 1963 when they assassinated Kennedy. This is not some prissy little politeness thing, this is all-out war and one of the enemy has taken a hit. if you're not ready for that, stick your head back in the sand until it's safe to come out again. our "cause" is to restore democracy, justice, and equal rights, not revert to superficial platitudes about some corpulent false prophet and charlatan.

[Canuckistanian]

76. No. n/t

[mmonk]

77. Anyone who sides with Falwell

isn't going to be for any causes we espouse. He was all about hate. Hatred that people have taken to heart and in probably some cases, damaged other human beings with. I've only made one comment about him since his death. But any comment here isn't any more insensitive or inflammatory than the things he has said.

[blondeatlast]

79. Are scolds with disabled profiles the authority over our internet decorum?

:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. I Think Anything That Has The Power To Embarrass Our Community As A Whole Hurts Our Cause.

Person to person type interactions in the day to day of things are generally harmless. But when there are topics that supersede such interaction and instead are large enough to reflect on our community as a whole, then our desire should be to put our best foot forward, not our most hateful. That's why days like this disappoint me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

155. Then it's OK, because this isn't it.

Only the "concernoids" care. 99% don't.

"As a whole" my ass.

[IChing]

175. Sometimes your posts might embarrass our community

How's that SUV and Walmart shopping working out for you?
Still driving the big SUV paying the gas eh? Getting your tube socks shopping done.?

[Duncan Grant]

233. OMC, the arbiter of what embarrasses "our" community.

Yeah, you're just the person I want to have the power to make those decisions. You should apply to be a mod.

[NashVegas]

83. Absolutely Not

Please put on your asbestos suit; what I'm about to say shouldn't be taken too personally, and any use of the word, "you" can be applied to any of the handful of posters who think the more frank posters on the subject are guilty of conduct unbecoming.


STOP IT, YOU IDIOT.

You may *think* you're trying to steer us in the right direction, but it's you who are wrong.

Jerry Falwell is a figure who will be written about for some time, just as William Jennings Bryan, McCarthy, and others.

If DUers were to stand down and shut up about our thoughts on his person and/or persona, those who wish to pick up his mantle would have free reign to glorify the man, uncontested. History is written by the victors and goddammit, I want us to have this one.

That in itself is a great reason for voicing our opinions on Falwell's life and our relief at his passing.

95% of the posts that say unpleasant things about him come from a logical standpoint, knowing what this man did to divide our country into groups: sanctified; unwashed heathens.

Lastly, what you have read on DU is tame compared to what's out there on other message boards, many which are hosted by the mainstream media.


So please. Stop it. Just stop it, or I'm going to think you, too, want to see America divided.

[blondeatlast]

91. Damn, damn, damn. Perfect. Thank you.

:applause::applause::applause:

[guitar man]

86. You know what

Instead of the "pissing on the grave" so to speak, we could have had an all out love fest for the sonofabitch complete with flowers and candles and, at the end of the day, they's still break out that mile-wide brush of theirs and fill it with red paint and come after us with it. We could have bent over backwards being cordial about it and we'd still be a bunch of "Amurika hatin pinko commie fag libruls".

And I would have bet my last dollar, if we had bit our toungues and been "nice" about the whole thing, at least one major RW asshole would have remarked on the "phony" response from the "left wing birkenstock wearing granola eating hippie scumbags" at DU.

So you know what, after 6+ years of this fucking uber-right neocon DISASTER we have had to live through, I don't feel a bit bad about the response. I damn sure don't give a shit what the right thinks, they are going to think it anyway. Fuck 'em! :grr:

on edit: I left out "tree huggers", wanted to get that in there somewhere, that's some of their favorite vitriol right there....

[ima_sinnic]

99. you forgot "bed-wetting liberals"

:eyes:

[guitar man]

101. oh yeah

thanks, forgot that one. We'd still be bed wetting liberals to them if we all showed up and cried at his fucking funeral....

[Left Is Write]

109. Latte-drinking, Volvo driving....

I completely agree with you. There is no response that would have made us any more likeable to freeper types. Not only that, I but I lay the blame for the "conservative Christian" shift in politics in this country directly on the shoulders of Falwell and his minions. The in-your-face, my-way-or-the-highway, more-Christian-than-thou folks were empowered and emboldened by the likes of Falwell, and I have a hard time feeling any compassion for someone who condemned my friends and claimed that people like me and my friends deserved and brought on terrorist attacks ourselves.

Did he think he was so special? Did he think the extremists who attacked here on September 11 liked or respected him more than us? What an egocentric, self-righteous blowhard.

I try to live a compassionate, tolerant life, but I am not Christ-like enough to feel sorrow for Falwell. Maybe one day I'll be able to let go of bitterness toward that man, but right now I'm not a big enough person to do so. And I can admit it.

[guitar man]

122. damn

"volvo driving latte drinking", you guys are better at this than I am :rofl:

maybe that's because I'm a "black leather wearing, Harley Riding gun toting SOB" that doesn't take any shit off of anybody. At my core, I'm probably a lot more libertarian than I am liberal, but if you don't love Bu$h and Jesus, you wind up being one of the "evil" liberals in their world anyway.

My reaction, upon reflection, isn't about the man himself. I didn't personally know him, so I have no basis for personally hating him.It's about what he stood for, or more accurately, stood against, which is liberty and equality for those different from him and his ilk. I was not happy for his death, but for his silence. Just glad his hate-spewing pie-hole was finally silent.

[RaleighNCDUer]

114. Thank you. nt

[guitar man]

124. ur welcome

:patriot:

y'all carry on, I'm going to get a beer or two

peace :hi:

[Scout]

87. No. 'Nuff said. n/t

[Vidar]

95. Grow up.

[MzNov]

97. Most of us are not afraid to say what we feel and think.

You sound like the Blue Dog Democrats, constantly worred and fretting what others will think of them if they do this, or that.

Just be yourself.

And what IS our cause?? Love, peace, kindness???? HELL NO. It's getting these rat bastards out of the White House and re-taking our country !!!

:bounce:

[IChing]

102. I need to go wag the dog and carry some water.

I mean walk the dog and and fill up my water bottles.
And That is the truth..LOL


:) :hi:

[MzNov]

107. Don't forget to let the cat out !!!! LOL

:rofl:


:hi:

[blondeatlast]

100. About that question mark at the end of your subject line...

Please see my signature line.

"I see your true colors, shining through..."

[JuniperLea]

106. Far better than we have dissed a man upon his death

"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it."
Mark Twain

"His mother should have thrown him away and kept the stork."
Mae West

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go."
Oscar Wilde

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."
Clarence Darrow

[Old and In the Way]

110. I'm quite happy for Jerry. He gets to meet his vengeful God.

Shit, hope he didn't miscalculate. He could be screwn.

[Dark]

128. lol! (eom)

[Ikonoklast]

111. The time for civil discourse enjoined by only one side of the

debate is long past. There is a new idea slowly forming in the subconscious of like-minded liberal thinkers to confront like with like, and not excusing or explaining why.

The tactics will be equal. The time to be a stationary target and absorb punishment without retribution is now history. Now is the time to speak in a loud voice to those that would use our former silence as a weapon of implied assent.

But the initial authors of such vitriol are astonished when their own petards are used against them.

[Skittles]

116. f*** that

I am not going to withhold my true feelings about the demise of that sick piece of shit just because some WARMONGERING REPUKES might find it unseemly

[Forkboy]

132. You make us look bad

And I love ya for it!!!!!!

:loveya:

[Bluerthanblue]

152. nope- and Falwell didn't

give 2 shits what his hate did to the INDIVIDUALS who are GLBT- 'they' didn't matter- THEY- weren't HUMAN BEINGS "like us" THEY were 'less-than'

Sad to watch how hatred doesn't die with the person who uses it to manipulate others. You continue to be his victim.

All these 'venting' posts are RE-actions. They don't represent the un-tainted views of the individual people who write them. They are like a knee-jerk response to pain- to threat- A "recoiling". They aren't born out of the deepest emotions that live within the individual- they are actions not truly made by choice, but in response- to Falwell's "legacy"..- to his bigotry.


The hate that he taught, is pulling the strings- and perpetuating itself, right here- and anyone who dares stand in it's path better be ready to get burned.

I know you are in there, under the curses, and the 'screw you' garbage-

And I believe people who refuse to do the 'group' thing, or can't do it any more, will look and see that DU is as diverse as each one of us- and that we are all just people- more alike than we think- trying to find our way through this thing called 'life'-


peace,
blu

[Skittles]

217. I am not his VICTIM

I am someone who saw him for what he was and I refuse to mitigate my feelings because the bastard is DEAD

[Bluerthanblue]

219. do you believe

your life has not been altered by his agenda?

Would you have responded to the news of another human beings death feeling ok about calling someone a "sick peice of shit" if he hadn't impacted your world in the way he did???

Do you feel his influence upon your life has been a positive one? Are you CHOOSING to respond to his death as you are, or does the pain he inflicted upon you, me, and many others driving your attitude???-

I'm askingyou- not telling you.

You are the only one who can truly gauge what effect his life had on yours, and the only one who has a chance to control it's effects.

peace,
blu

[Skittles]

231. I have to live with the results of religious crap every day

he was not the only problem but he was one of the most visible ones

[CreekDog]

118. I thought the behavior was wrong, but don't think it hurt our cause

I am happy that so many yesterday protested the excesses going on yesterday.

Anyone from the outside will see the crazy comments followed by complaints about those comments. Among the worst I saw was one who said he would defecate on Falwell's grave, and worse, that was followed up by agreement in a few subsequent posts and the post about raping (not the word used) Falwell so that it would hurt. Yes, I'm making a judgement about those two posts --they were wrong, period, such things cannot be justified.

No matter how deserving the human target of such bile is, no human being should betray his/her dignity to want or to do such things. In other words, you become as bad as the thing you hate. And it leads to bad places because in revenge you want to or say things so graphically that it is clear you want to be as bad to that person as they were to others. Thank God all our religions cover this, but I hope that more would listen.

However, regardless of whether or not it hurt our cause, however you define that, bad behavior and hating our enemies does cause harm nonetheless. A number of commenters yesterday said that Falwell would reap what he had sowed (although Christian theology says that by grace, we actually don't need to suffer such a thing). Nevertheless, there is no good to be reaped from sowing hate, even if only in revenge or repayment for a grievance.

After all, there is no religion that says that revenge is a good thing. Many felt that because Falwell referred to them in a hurtful and sometimes hateful way, that they were free to or obligated to respond in kind.

In other words, to protect tolerance, we must not tolerate intolerance. But the way it comes out is that the intolerant can hate us for who/what/anything that we are (this is not allowed). However, we are allowed to hate intolerance of who/what/anything that we are.

Thus, the fallacious argument is that hate is not wrong, but only wrong if applied to the wrong people. Now, that's problematic and it actually feeds into the logic that Falwell preached all those years. You say you are right to hate him because he said something about you or your group, or he hated you or your group. But by hating him back, you have said that it isn't wrong to hate. He would instead say, hate is not wrong also, because we are supposed to hate the sin not the sinner. In other words, when you hate him, you feed into the logic that hate is not wrong.

But hate is wrong. And hating people in response to hate doesn't make the world better. Only love conquers hate. Only light conquers darkness. That's where our energy should go. Not where much of it went yesterday.

[yardwork]

126. Usually the over the top posts are put here by disruptors

I didn't see the posts you quote - I'm taking your word for it that they were posted - but there's no reason to believe that they represent "our" side.

[CreekDog]

134. I don't think those over the top posts represent "our" side either

And the two posts were in the thread "This is not DU's finest hour" yesterday and there were plenty of posts taking them to task for the posts.

Since you mention it, the over the top posts are a cause for suspicion. It occurs to me that when the posters were challenged they couldn't justify what they said, well, not better than a 5-year old, albeit with the mouth of a 50-year old trucker.

Perhaps you are onto something that the most extreme posts, the really crazy ones that don't back up anything they are saying, are caricatures of liberals designed to make us look a certain way. Those posts certainly made the posters look that way --but they didn't make the rest of us.

[yardwork]

141. There are disruptors - some paid, some volunteer amateurs

who post things on Democratic boards to try to make the left look bad. They tend to get picked up quickly by the right-wing talk shows and quoted on the air.

[RaleighNCDUer]

136. That's very nicely said, but I have a caveat -

We are in a war - the religious right has declared war against everyone who is not them and, not incidentally, on our constitution. Falwell was a leading general in that war on us, and I have no compunctions against reminding people of why we are fighting.

If we shut up we leave the field of battle to the theocrats. They will write the histories. They will write the laws. And they will kill us. Literally, not figuratively. There is NO DIFFERENCE between Falwell and the hard line clerics of Iran who have their opposition murdered.

I will not leave the field to the likes of Falwell, or Dobson, or LaHaye. And I WILL dance on their graves; otherwise, they will put me in mine.

Hate is not only not wrong - it is, sometimes, the only reasonable response to save your own life.

Tolerance is all fine and well, but when they come for me they will have to fight because I HATE them.

THAT is what "Never again" is all about.

[Dark]

129. We don't hate Falwell because of his views, we hate him for his actions.

He went beyond partisanship. He demonized anyone who didn't agree with him. And he made sure his followers did too.

And as for the conservatives, I'd ask them how much they celebrated the death of Saddam, another man who supported terrorism against people he didn't agree with.

[upi402]

133. I loved Falwell in "Rosemary's Baby". The mating scene rocked!

:evilgrin:

[Dark]

144. I thought he'd only had sex with his mom in an outhouse?

:evilgrin:

[upi402]

156. It depends on what the definition of

outhouse is...


:dilemma:

[Iris]

139. He did more alive to hurt our cause than we ever could now that he's dead.

His death will be nothing but a blip on the radar in a few weeks.

[Zenlitened]

145. Would you prefer we be seen as the party of moral cowardice?

I've read the many posts in which you've made the same point you attempt again here in this thread. And I've read the many thoughtful, compelling responses by DUers explaining the numerous flaws in your argument.

I've also seen where (in the name of compassion, no less) you refer to DUers as "stupid jerks" who should "go join the republican party."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2846415&mesg_id=2847122

What you might not realize is that your message of "be careful, the opposition will say bad things about us" and "the swing voters won't like us" are variations of an old and -- in my view -- thoroughly discredited talking point. Both here on DU (29,350,196 posts and counting) and in the real world of the political arena.

We don't win by being timid. We don't win by shying away from the truth. We don't win by meekly checking our tongues, avoiding controversy, worrying about the opinion of people who can smear, distort and lie as easily as you or I would draw a breath.

When we do those things, we lose. We say to the "swing voters" that we have no real principles we're willing to stand up and defend.

This is true both of our elected leaders and of ourselves, the people who comprise the party. The latter is a very large group and it's to be expected that some may, in the heat of the moment, utter some incautious remarks. (Name-calling, for example.) But that's a trade-off we make for the sake of a higher value, the freedom to debate and discuss issues that concern us.

We expect our party leaders to be a bit more polished, of course. But not too polished, really. If there is consensus on DU about anything, it seems to me that we are tired of warped definitions of "decorum" that serve only to silence us while injustice thrives, lies persist, and damaging myths go unchallenged.

In any event, you continue to conflate the harm inflicted by Falwell with the justified indignation of those he harmed. You keep on calling it "hate." You keep on insisting it's the "same thing" that Falwell did during his life. And that's just not the case at all. To maintain there is an equivalency there is, itself, an affront to decency.

Falwell systematically destroyed lives, assaulted families, sowed fear and poisoned our nation over the course of his career. Many, many DUers had the moral clarity to point out that fact when he was alive. That they also have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that the world is a better place now that his venomous voice has been stilled... well. It says to me that their integrity remains intact, no matter what the freepers of the world would have you believe.

[CreekDog]

146. I take issue that we should avoid controversy for how that "looks"

Not liking the animus I saw yesterday, my issue was strictly on the moral wrongness of hating in response to hate. And getting gleeful over someone's death was just wrong on a bunch of levels.

That said, if it is right to criticize, even if it makes us look bad, we'd better do it and take our lumps. Our willingness to do that has made the readers think of DU as a source of truth amidst many sources of spin.

But there is something to be said for dignity and the things it prevents you from doing. That's a good thing, for your soul. Not everything is about politics.

[Zenlitened]

149. I think the word "hate" can be a bit vague sometimes.

To paraphrase a post by another DUer:

Falwell hated us for who we are.

We hate him for what he did.

Same word... "hate"... but the real meaning is in the motivation.

And the effect of the emotion is different, too. When the "hate" is actually justified anger, righteous indignation... and when it is expressed in pursuit of truth, it is not a toxin but a useful tool.

In the words of the philosopher-bard, Johnny Rotten (of Sex Pistols fame!): "Anger is an energy."

To which I'd add: Make use of it, or it will consume you.

I think DUers are making legitimate use of a very justified anger, by and large.

[LittleClarkie]

150. How is it brave to attack a dead dude

And we're not showing our morality by dancing on his grave.

[Zenlitened]

158. Stating the truth of a man's life is not "attacking."

Noting the awful legacy he himself constructed is not "dancing on his grave."

Conflating the truth-telling of the oppressed with the crimes of the oppressor, on the other hand, strikes me as morally dubious, to say the least.

[LittleClarkie]

172. What I'm talking about could not be put under the lofty phrase truth telling

"Good riddance"
"I'll be dancing on his grave"
"May he burn in hell"

That's truth telling? Literally saying "I'm going to be dancing on his grave" is not "dancing on his grave"? You give too much credit. What you're describing, if it were actually happening, would indeed be worthy. But you're putting lipstick on a pig. Calling it truth telling doesn't make it so.

Discussing the man's legacy is one thing, but being giddy in the event of someone's demise makes us neither brave nor moral.

Or did you think posting on a message board as opposed to saying such things to the family's face, Phelps style, makes us brave. Oh, the mighty keyboard brigade, hiding behind our monitors, ain't we courageous.

If you're going to attack someone, perhaps a living person who is affecting events might be a good pick. Falwell had become not much more than a joke. You can't attack a tellytubby and expect anyone to take you seriously. He was beneath our disdain.

We diminish only ourselves, and do fuck all for the cause.

And it's not conflating, it's disagreeing on a messageboard. As for the oppressed, are you saying that ever person on this board who's reacting as I say is an oppressed person? Riiiiight.

[Zenlitened]

189. The person who says "good riddance," the person who says "burn in hell"...

... is expressing a truth, too, in a sense. It may not be as articulate as you'd prefer, but it seems to me that it comes from a recognition of the enormous harm Falwell caused over the decades.

Regarding people saying "I'll be dancing on his grave," that strikes me as a turn of phrase, nothing more. Not one I would have chosen, but certainly not "literally" dancing on a grave. Hyperbole, sure. But I'd be surprised if the next DU meet-up is actually, literally, held at Falwell's gravesite for dancing purposes.

To be honest, I think just about every statement in your post is wide of the mark.

Falwell spent his life creating exactly this moment, and no amount of sentimentality over his "demise" changes that. Someone makes himself a public figure... well, the public is going to judge him. That's the way it goes.

Now he can no longer spew his poison... I can certainly understand why some people would react positively to that. I'd also argue that merely witnessing the harm he caused others is enough for many people, particularly Progressives, to experience a sense of oppression. "As long as there is a soul in prison, I am not free", etc. So, no, Falwell didn't steal everyone's lunch money, but we can all recognize a bully when we see one.

Maybe it's a matter of the empathy one is able to muster, that determines whether Falwell was a "joke" or not. That, and whether one seizes on a few over-the-top posts -- out of thousands -- to somehow conclude that DUers are generally "giddy" over his death. My impression has been that most DUers are cleared-eyed, stone-cold sober in their understanding of why it is better to be rid of someone like Falwell than to have him around.

As for the Phelps-in-their-faces vs. keyboard-brigade thing... I honestly don't know where you were going with that. Unless it was to say to "shutupshutupshutupstoptalkingaboutit." Which hardly makes sense, this being a political discussion board, as you duly noted.

:shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

193. VERY well said, and well

thought through.
thanks.

peace,
blu

[sanskritwarrior]

151. BEST DU POST EVER

Stick that in your pie hole haters.........

[KG]

159. boy, i'll bet you're feeling really good about yourself!

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

164. Damn, I missed the unedited version.

Bet it was a DUzy...

[KG]

176. all i know is,, i'm feeling quite chastened.

:eyes:

[blondeatlast]

177. Well you are such a hater!

This is rapidly turning into one of the funniest threads I've seen in a while.

[Geek_Girl]

154. Nope

nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

157. Let the two-faced politicians fret about "winning the middle", they're good at it.

They have a knack for looking somber and constipated, when necessary, over the death of fascist, racist, misogynistic, bigoted, demagogic, frauds.

[Stephanie]

167. "Our Cause"

that's a classic! is there a special school they go to to learn the dead giveaways?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

218. So You Are Calling The OP A Troll/Freeper Because Of Something So Petty?

Not a very respectful way to be towards members of our community who did nothing to provoke your accusation. It is obvious that the OP was genuine and sincere in its delivery and from someone trying to be thoughtful. You technically owe them an apology for the baseless insinuation, but that'll be up to you to do the right thing; of course.

And yeah yeah yeah I know, go play with blah blah blah ralph blah blah blah. But you should be more respectful anyway.

[blondeatlast]

168. Cause? What is this "cause" you speak of? Hell, DU can't agree on what color piss is

--now we have a "cause?"

[earthlover]

178. since I used the word cause that is being poked fun at....

Let me confess that I am in my fifties so maybe I am not up on current lingo.

By our cause, I was referring to the Democratic Party's cause, and it is reflected in the platforms we have fought for over the years. But it is more than that. It is protecting our civil liberties from attack, it is protecting our Constitution. It is fighting for justice....social, political, economic. It is fighting for equality...race, sex, orientation, age, disability, you name it. It is fighting for diversity, for respecting the opinions of others, for maintaining separation of church and state. It is for pretecting planet earth. It is for using diplomacy to prevent wars and only going to war at a last resort. It is for helping the working class, helping provide affordable health care for all American citizens, and for fighting poverty and homelessness. It is for providing educational opportunities for all students, and giving teachers the resources and salaries they need Have I left anything out? Just rambling.

I would call that a cause. I would call that a noble quest. I would call that a mission. I would call it our destiny as a party to promote for every American.

If you have a better word for it, please help me out. I don't want a pissing contest over words.

[and-justice-for-all]

169. Nothing posted here...

.Could reival anything that came out of Falwell's mouth. any thing I/or any other post state about him and his ilk is nothing that would not be said to their face.

[leftofthedial]

170. oh my god, no!

please don't let me offend any of the fascists. anything but that.

fuck falwell, the fat bag of pus, and the giant elephant cock he rode in on. I wish he could die more than once.

[blondeatlast]

180. Most moderates aren't paing attention to what happens in DC, much less

this message board.

If expressing disrespect to a man who seemed to have hated just about anyone who didn't breathe his personal oxygen hurts our cause--overshadowing our desire to restore some degree of peace to the ME, to bring health care and economic fairness to the citieznry, to save the planet and restore this nation to being the greatest example of democracy in this world; well--we maybe deserve to be "hurt" for not communicating our message clearly enough.

Hell, even the moderates I know despised the living Reverend Falwell, even some of the smarter GOPers did. I've not once attacked the man personally and won't start now, but if others need to vent, I say let them.

[AlCzervik]

182. i'm glad to know we here at DU make such and impact and what we say is so much

heard and read by millions and millions of people and it was Jerry Falwell who was the one that wasn't paid attention to, thanks so much for pointing out how what he did hurt no one, no one at all.

heavy <sarcasm>

[Jed Dilligan]

183. Well, gee, since spewing hate has hurt the GOP so much

maybe we should rethink this "strategy"...

:sarcasm:

[LittleClarkie]

184. Yeah, that's what I'm doing here

Trying to be more like the GOP

[Jed Dilligan]

185. No insinuation of that was intended...

Just showing that our "concerned" OP's suggestion that this is doing political damage is preposterous.

[earthlover]

224. We face a different playing field than the Republicans....

I didn't respond to this yesterday, but now I will after consideration.

Yes, the GOP and also the religious right have used hatred to their advantage. But they have an advantage with that regard, it is a different playing field for them, unfortunately.

They sucker folks in with love of country, apple pie, and a simplistic Christianity that promises them salvation for nothing more than believing. In order to distinguish themselves from others, they show how unpatriotic and anti-religious the "liberals" are...they gotta have a boogie-man to look down on. But they do this in a slick way....they reach out the carrot of the American Flag and Salvation in exchange for their followers looking down on the unfaithful. So there is hatred shown for liberals, gays, pro-choice folk, believers in evolution, opponents of Iraq, etc etc etc. In the name of God, of course, and in the name of patriotism.

So how are we to respond? Well, most of us--if we are religious--believe in a god that is far more merciful than theirs. In fact, we believe their interpretation of Christianity is a far cry from Jesus the peacemaker, turner of cheeks, advocate for the poor, seeker of social justice and nonjudgementalist. And most of us believe in a Constitution and Bill of Rights that actually means what it says.

We have to recognize that ours is a more nuanced message than theirs. We value reason instead of emotion. Moreover, we support the ACLU when they stand up for the Constitutional rights to assembly and speech even for Nazis, even though Nazis are even more radical than Falwell. The other side is not hampered by such fine points. We value the right to conscience and abhor the judgementalism of the narrow-religious-right.

Recently, there has been evidence that there has been a disenchantment among many for the radical views of the religious right. There also has been a louder voice for the religious left.

But, again, how do we fight the right? It's not so easy for us. We can't just rant and show our hatred. Because we are trying to show we believe in freedom of expression and inclusiveness. It is the radical right that opposed to freedom, diversity, and we have to show that America is better for not stooping to that level.

On the other hand, if we stoop to their level and join in the hatefest, we have given up the one arguement that we enjoy: that ours is the voice of reason, of diversity, of following the Constitution and decreasing the hatred in our country. We become like them.

And we don't have a phony god or a phony flag to offer our beleivers. We can't just convince people to hate the right. Not even the right could succeed if all they had to offer was to hate the left.

We have to offer what the right cannot. And to do this we need to be true to our principles. We need to show that America can be a bastion of freedom, where people can look after each other and everyone has an opportunity for success and can bask in the joy of freedom. We can show what America can become and help her fulfill her potential. We need to be true to our values, our dreams, our goals. It might "feel good" to stoop to the level of the far right to "vent". But what works for the Republicans won't work for us. We need to fight smart, so that the right is exposed for the hateful message it portrays. We cannot do this if we act with hatred in our hearts.

[Jed Dilligan]

237. This is a very idealistic take on the situation

From what I've seen "out there," people who support the Democratic party want something done about jobs, health care, the environment, and education. You don't have to be spiritual or religious to want those things. You can still feel normal human emotions, like hatred. You can still wish your enemies dead.

I guess I'm not enough of a party loyalist to see the difference as much as you do. Democrats in my time have pursued utterly vicious policies based purely on greed, like NAFTA, and cynical policies designed to manipulate the public's emotions, like "welfare reform." We're not above them. "We" (and I mostly feel left out of this) are just the party of the rich that offers a SLIGHTLY better deal and a SLIGHTLY better hope of survival than the other party of the rich.

I believe that people's hate should be redirected, against the phony scapegoats (and once again, we are utterly complicit in the scapegoating process in our wholehearted support of the War on Drugs). I think people should hate the corporate elite who have fucked our poor planet almost to death in the short span of two centuries. I think they should have a chance to vote that hate. You'd be surprised how many non-voters would come out of the woodwork on such an occasion.

I've only ever voted my hatred of Bush. Clinton didn't get me to the polls. I can't say I've ever supported a candidate, and I can't say I ever will, because as far as I can tell they are all rich motherfuckers who are out to screw me and my family somehow. I basically support the Democrats because they are the party who will use lube.

[sleipnir]

186. No. The hand-wringing you write about happens each time a R-wing celeb dies.

I seriously doubt it has had long term impacts on our "cause."

If people want to have a few words to celebrate the demise of a person they hated and despised, I won't hold it against them.

[Retired AF Dem]

187. It depends

If a prominent Dem dies and the freeptard boards glee about it and we all call them assholes for doing it, and yes it hurts our cause since it proves that we are no different than they are.

[L. Coyote]

190. Yesterday was a GREAT DAY for Falwell TO DIE. Or, the Buffalo Jump to Hell.

"You have to give America's most-hated Christian a lot of credit. Even in taking his final fall (while alive), to the floor in his office at oxymoronic "Liberty University" in solitude, he pulled off a thorough going coup like noone else could have mustered. Like the lead buffalo of a large herd, he caused a massive shift in direction as he went down. Except, in this case, the herd that followed him in his descent wasn't his own--he took the opposition herd down with him, over the buffalo jump to hell....."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x899312

[Mz Pip]

191. Probably not

Those who thought he walked on water aren't EVER going to be moved to our side of any issue. Most everyone else really doesn't give that much of a shit about it.

Falwell was divisive. Everyone knows that. I doubt anyone could be really surprised at the amount of venom he triggered.

This too will pass. 3 months from now all of this will be forgotten. As will Falwell.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Solly Mack]

200. ...

[sutz12]

201. I'll say one thing.... and I don't care who hears or knows...

I want every right wing nutjob hate-monger that agrees with Falwell, that supported him, that quoted him, that lionized his bigotry, that gravely nodded their heads in solemn agreement and said "Amen" when he blamed 9/11 on homosexuals and liberals and other good, innocent Americans to know one thing.

I intend to piss on their graves, too.

[burythehatchet]

204. FUCK FALWELL FUCK FALWELL FUCK FALWELL FUCK FALWELL FUCK FALWELL FUCK FALWELL FUCK FALWELL FUCK FALW

[Initech]

205. I've said it at least twice before and I will say it again:

The amount of hate generated toward Falwell, while he was a huge asshole, is only helping his cause. I, on the other hand, am not trying to draw any more attention to him and his followers than is necessary.

[Virginia Dare]

214. Neither...it will all be forgotten by Friday...n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

215. Would saying nice things about him help "our cause"?

Let's be real. He was a dick. His followers are morons. Who cares what their opinion is of us. Fuck him and the simpletons in his flock.

[earthlover]

222. don't have to say nice things about him, I can't think of any....

...but it is not necessary to say anything at all on the day of someone's death. Dancing on a grave only strenghthens the Falwell followers, and I am not in favor of doing anything that will help them.

Can't it wait until he is friggin buried?

[JHB]

216. I'll have to object to the reaction being characterized as "blind hatred"

For many "hatred" isn't quite the right word, and I don't think there's any for whom "blind" is accurate.

There may be some here who "hated him for his views", but it was his actions that made him an enemy of so many.

Falwell spent decades as an active destroyer of many things that a lot of people here hold dear. That the occasion of his death (and the inevitable smarmy glossing over of those negative actions) triggered an intense bout of venting is inevitable, and I'll argue probably healthy. (It's the ones who quietly nurse their grudges you have to watch out for.)

Get over it. In a month, NO ONE WILL CARE.

[Jamastiene]

220. The people who hate us would hate us no matter what we

said or did. Trust me. If we wanted to score points in our political enemies' eyes, we would be damned if we do, damned if we don't. My question is why would we want their high praise? Or why would we want them to have any good opinion of us? I mean what kind of whores are we that we want them to like us? Seems kind of whorish to me to want their opinion of us to be good.

[earthlover]

223. I could give a rat's posterior about whether right wing fundies like us....

...we are not going to win them over any more than they are going to win us over.

What I care about is winning elections. In order to do that, any way you cut it, the independents and moderates are the deciding votes. If we act like fools and stomp on the grave of a warm body we are going to turn off people to the Democratic Party. Their reaction to it is likely to be, "get a friggin life and respect the families".

Now some may say that maybe few will notice. I sure HOPE that is right. But on the other hand, if 08 is a close election and every vote counts, why scare off even a handful? It doesn't make sense. And who on earth are we going to win over by all our ranting? Nobody! The right is not gonna be won over, and this will only turn off the moderates. Sounds to me like preaching to the choir, and I wouldn't care, except if we lose in 08, it will be a victory for the right.

So my advice to those who need to rant....take a walk, do aerobics, get a punching bag, go out in the country and yell at the top of your lungs that Falwell is an asshole.

But, when you are done, hope you feel better. Because we will need your energies to defeat the right instead of giving them ammunition to defeat us.

[Jamastiene]

225. Oh yeah, that really worked from 2001 until 2005, didn't it?

Don't want to offend them even though they are so easily offended, do we? Don't want to step on any toes of people who can't seem to make up their minds between an obvious fascist and the more sensible choice, do we? That tactic didn't work from 2001 until 2005. It wasn't until 2006 when some Dems with backbone stood up and said something many nervous nellies here thought was a little too controversial (like this Iraq war is getting us nowhere). Face it. Sitting on the fence gets none of the work done while standing up and saying something gets results. That's what the American people want to see happen...not the spineless ass kissing of people who cannot make up their minds if they want to vote for Bush and his ilk or not.

[earthlover]

228. who said anything about sitting the fence?

I was merely saying it is stupid to dance in a graveyard.

[Warren DeMontague]

235. The "independents and moderates" are leaving the GOP in droves BECAUSE of the religious right.

What we need to do is stand up to that crowd. Not try to ape the GOP's appeasement of 'em.

[devilgrrl]

226. Oh, for Christ's sake.... these fucking lectures!

Your "Concern" has been noted.

[Warren DeMontague]

236. .

:applause:

[Spirochete]

229. I will admit to having some regrets

For instance - I regret that when Falwell keeled over, he didn't land on Pat Robertson and smash him to death as well.

Nice profile, by the way.

[NuttyFluffers]

232. not to sane people.

why should anyone sane care what the batshit crazy backwash thinks? they are already in an insane mental loop -- i'm not a professional therapist and i don't get paid to heal or pander to their delusions.

about politeness... well, we all should know that he who publicly admonishes is also deeply ignorant about the essence of polite etiquette. i can't imagine miss manners thinking all this "compassion beration" is anything more than rude sanctimony. it would be wiser to just stop and let silence speak for itself.

[Warren DeMontague]

234. "our"? LOL. Oh, yeah, we're "Alienating the values voter". Haven't heard THAT line of bs before.

All hail the swami of brilliantly fresh, insightful electoral wisdom.

Bob Shrum, is that you?

Yawn.

Here's what's hurting "our" cause- trying endlessly to appease a few hundred knuckle-dragging, 6000 year old Earth Noah's Ark pinheads who are already over-represented in Government.

Look, Jack, "Falwell's Followers" aren't going to vote for us ANYWAY. What we really ought to be doing is saying "screw the religious right, once they figure out that banning gay marriage isn't going to bring their job back from Singapore or get them health coverage, then maybe they'll stop voting against their best interests".

I hate to be the Dorothy who pours the bucket of water on your wicked witch of the west's brew of tired-ass DLC bullshit, but the "voters we're going to need to win" are the millions of disaffected socially libertarian voters who can't figure out which party wants to run their lives more. The LAST thing we want to do is play this stupid game of weakly imitating the GOP's pandering crap to the glassy-eyed Jesus crowd. Or maybe you think our politicians shouldn't say they believe in Evolution, either?

Hey, I've heard this identical line of crap several times in the past few years, with a slightly different group or issue that was supposed to be thrown off the bus or silenced... you know, so we wouldn't alienate "them". Convince "them" that we "hate God". :eyes: After the 2004 election, it was the gays. Then it was the pro-choicers. Then we were supposed to stop fighting 10 commandment monuments and get the atheists to shut up. ("Shut up! Shut up! We know you don't believe in God, but do you HAVE to keep saying it out loud???") Meanwhile, the Republicans (in thrall to the myth of the all-powerful values voter) shot themselves in the foot over Terri Schiavo.

I tell you what, Bub- we would win a lot more voters "in play" if we would come out across the board for an immediate end to the Iraq war, an end to the drug war, a Single Payer Health Care System, and the right of the terminally ill to choose a pain-free exit. The constituencies behind THOSE issues are reachable if our party finds its voice and its purpose. Jerry Falwell's followers? Gimme a fucking break.

Besides, once the guy blamed the still-warm bodies of 9-11 on "pagans, gays, the ACLU and atheists", he earned no postscript more courteous than "fuck off" in my book.