"No Iraqi Left Me to Die on a Roof"

[ThatsMyBarack]

Five years post-Katrina, this quote still sticks in my mind. I saw it on a protest sign once, but I can't find that image anywhere.

[slackmaster]

1. I hope the person who made that sign isn't expecting Iraqis or anyone else to rescue him or her

...the next time there is a major flood.

[ThatsMyBarack]

2. "USA! USA USA!"

Would be a response from Rethugs, I imagine....

[NJmaverick]

3. K & R!

[NeedleCast]

4. As illogical as it is true

[G_j]

5. a powerful picture (here)

[slackmaster]

10. I take it she did manage to get off the roof somehow

She appears to be alive in the photo.

[Raineyb]

11. And that mitigates the government's neglect how?

We're spending trillions on wars but we can't rescue people in this country when a natural disaster hits and you're getting all pissy about the sign?

[slackmaster]

14. I don't expect government to be able to rescue everyone in a major disaster

Even if we weren't spending trillions on wars, I still would not expect that level of service in every disaster.

[mtnester]

15. I see you are going for the Mr Popularity award today

yes indeedy

[slackmaster]

16. I'll be laughing at my detractors after the Big One hits southern California

I have enough food, water, medicine, and other supplies to sustain myself for about a month.

The "Government will take care of me" sheeple will be just as SOL as the "God will take care of me" crowd.

[11 Bravo]

20. Let me get this straight. Tens of thousands may be dead ...

but you'll be laughing. Nice.

[slackmaster]

21. I'll be doing whatever I can to help people who are injured or trapped...

...or otherwise fell victim to events over which they had no control.

People who come to me begging for food or water because they didn't prepare themselves, not so much.

[WCGreen]

34. what if you aren't at home when the big one hits....

[slackmaster]

36. I'll get myself home if possible. If not, that would fall under "things I can't control".

I always wear decent walking shoes.

Of course it's possible that I will be injured, or trapped, or for some other reason unable to get home. All I can do is what I believe every responsible, able-bodied person can do, and prepare myself for the disaster situations that are most likely.

My negative comments and feelings are reserved for people who knew better and could have done better but failed to prepare, not for those who are innocent victims of circumstance.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slampoet]

79. +1000

[slackmaster]

80. Kindly point out where I said that anyone in NO could have done better to protect himself or herself

In the Hurricane Katrina disaster.

Or any other disaster in any other location, for that matter.

If you read the sub-thread carefully, you will see that I am referring to a likely disaster in the future, here in Southern California; and that I haven't said anything about any specific individual.

RIF

:hi:

BTW, do you deny the existence of people who believe that God will deliver them from anything bad that happens? Do you deny that there are people who have unrealistic expectations about the level of service they will receive from government in a major disaster, no matter who is running the government at the time?

you have hundreds of dollars available to spend on something you won't ever use (that earthquake kit because you're not quite gifted enough to understand that earthquakes don't conveniently happen when you're at home to grab the kit) -- most people are better at math than that and if they're poor they HAVE to be better at math than that, they can't throw away $ on shit they'll never use

Lots of bad assumptions on your part here.

My earthquake supplies are simply part of the food and water that I use normally. I take several medications daily for hypertension and cholesterol problems - It took me about a year to save up a month's reserve of those, by filling my prescriptions a few days early every month.

Most of my "emergency" food consists of ORDINARY CANNED GOODS that I buy and use routinely . I just keep a little more stock on hand than people who aren't thinking about contingencies, and rotate it. I haven't forked out "hundreds of dollars" for some kind of contrived earthquake kit that you seem to be imagining. I do have a couple dozen MREs, and some freeze-dried food that is (I hope you guessed it) rotated and used on backpacking trips. Because I am a camper, I already have things like camp stoves, fuel, tarps, tents, etc. on hand. To me, having a major earthquake hit is likely to be as if life is suddenly turned into a primitive camping situation, with the complication of having injured and otherwise SOL people around. Being prepared for that comes naturally.

How hard or expensive is it to keep a few used, washed milk jugs full of tap water around?

DO YOU KEEP A SUPPLY OF EMERGENCY DRINKING WATER AND FOOD IN YOUR OWN HOME? If so, how many days' worth?

[mentalsolstice]

86. Do you keep your provisions on your roof?

If not they would not have done you much good in NOLA during Katrina. Up to the rooftop was the only place most people could go.

[slackmaster]

87. I live in a hilly area of San Diego, California. Flooding is not an issue in my neighborhood.

There are areas of San Diego that have serious flood potential, but not here in South Park. All other potential NATURAL disasters here are eclipsed by earthquake and wildfire.

If I lived in New Orleans, I'd add an inflatable boat to my emergency supplies. It couldn't hurt.

If I knew that my house was going to flood out, I'd make an effort get out when the going was good; and I'd carry enough food and water and medication to take care of myself for a few days.

[mentalsolstice]

98. Well, you obviously don't know a whole lot about NOLA! nt

[slackmaster]

200. You're right, and I have neither said anything about NOLA nor claimed to know anything about it

Other than mentioning what my high school US History teacher said about it in 1975, which was basically that the city was doomed.

:hi:

[lolly]

59. And if it hits while you're at work

2 or 3 collapsed freeways from all your supplies?

Being prepared is good, of course.

Excusing the government from mobilizing asap to help in a disaster isn't.

The helpers had to wait outside until they got the government's ok to get in. The gov't was preventing help.

[slackmaster]

81. I can walk home from work in about an hour

Even if the entire freeway system is collapsed.

Being prepared is good, of course.

Excusing the government from mobilizing asap to help in a disaster isn't.

Kindly point out where I have excused anyone from anything.

The helpers had to wait outside until they got the government's ok to get in. The gov't was preventing help.

The response to Hurricane Katrina was an example of a massive failure by government. I agree completely.

[SwampG8r]

64. and i see it as part of the problem

that people will sit expecting it
remember andrew?
destroyed homestead florida
it no longer existed
all of the state was wiped clean from ft lauderdale south
we had it cleaned up in 6 weeks and rebuilt homestead in 6 years
get off your asses new orleans
the year of katrina florida was hit by 6
count them
6 hurricanes and 3 tropical storms IIRC
we were down 28 days no electricity no services
thats days not years or months
when you dont plan you cant complain unless it is politically profitable i suppose

[dsc]

82. you can't be serious

I don't think anyone expects perfect service in a disaster but we do expect something to happen. Katrina was a disaster of epic proportions that was made vastly worse by a response that was worse than that to a simliar disaster in the 1920's lead by Herbert Hoover. For not one, not two, but for three days no help at all reached New Orleans. That is nothing short of a total disgrace.

[slackmaster]

83. Could you survive for three days in or near your home with no external assistance?

Serious question.

[dsc]

84. it depends

If it were underwater, then likely no. If it were just a case of no power but the home was OK then likely yes.

[tourivers83]

162. Not that we would want to.

My partner and I have food in the house for a couple of months. We have a little spring in the woods out back and I have extra ammo for some of our weapons. My pain medicine would prove to be a problem rather soon but I would just have to do without it. If we could make it to her father’s home up on the mountain we could live a long time. He always grows a big garden and has food put away.:popcorn: :hi:

[Lagomorph]

181. Every road was destroyed...

...every airfield was underwater, the water system was contaminated, most of the needed equipment had to be evacuated before the hurricane, or be lost to flooding. Not everything sent was needed and moving it tied up the roads and ports preventing necessary supplies to get where they were needed.

FEMA forgot they were a Management agency. There was a lot of government failure.

[PacerLJ35]

32. We had the largest rescue in our nation's history going on

While she was holding up that sign...many, many friends of mine were working 'round the clock to pull people off of roofs and evacuate people out of New Orleans...my own squadron dedicated several aircraft and crews, and they were a few out of many.

There are many other issues regarding Katrina that merit attention. Putting down those who worked hard to save the tens of thousands who were rescued is an insult. The US military didn't leave anyone "to die on a roof".

[NutmegYankee]

33. Actually, the US military - On Rumsfeld's Orders - Did leave them

Rumsfeld chose to not allow the regular armed forces to participate in the rescue (like Navy choppers) because he was afraid we would be attacked after the storm when we were distracted. At least that was his excuse...

[PacerLJ35]

43. BS- I can find dozens of pictures of US military aircraft rescuing people

My own squadron...active duty USAF, suspended all training flights for weeks to fly missions down there.

[NutmegYankee]

156. After about one week the military showed up - But you are wrong

Google is your friend:

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/gq_report_blames_rumsfeld_for.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/17/732410/-Rumsfeld-kept-rescue-choppers-from-KatrinaTurf-War

[nadinbrzezinski]

160. Just an FYI there were active duty troops

not enough... but there were, mostly AF and Coasties.

And that article is only referring to one of the two major turf wars. The other was with State, and a sub-rosa battle to accept international aide.

No, don't ask me for a reference... but the battle was fought not just inside the West Wing. Suffice it to say it was amazing...

Actually here is a time line

http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

[NutmegYankee]

167. I never said the Coast Guard or NG wasn't there. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. Those are active duty troops

that was my point

So was the Navy.

What you are referring to is the deployment five days in of the 82nd and the 101st... that was a battle with Rummy and a few others.

[NutmegYankee]

170. It is the rumsfeld battle I'm referring to.

I'm not attacking the Military - just noting the douchebag in charge held them back when they could have started helping in the rescue. Many more rescue choppers could have been in use if he had not grounded them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. I am familiar with that battle

[NutmegYankee]

172. I tried to highlight that my attack was on Rumsfeld, but this is a passionate issue.

Many soldiers were bitter and angry at being held back, and some even faced court martial because they chose to disobey orders and rescue people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. It is passionate with good reason

and trust me, to this day it still makes me angry... the whole thing.

Also military personnel feel cheated of an opportunity to do one of their jobs. I just called attention, my apologies, to the fact that we had people in-situ from word go. Getting all assets, should have happened much sooner, may all those in the executive that prevented that burn in hell.

[PacerLJ35]

188. No one I know was court martialed because they tried to rescue people

In fact, active units were rescuing people almost immediately after the storm moved on.

[NutmegYankee]

199. There were 2 pilots of a helicopter that faced it.

They were on a routine supply mission (for base, not rescue) and they detoured and pulled people off of roofs for the day and were threatened with court martial until the public outcry caused the whole thing to get dropped. Both men deserved awards rather than threats.

[PacerLJ35]

187. Active duty rescue helicopters were already there before Katrina

and many more arrived in the 1-3 days after the storm. Here's a list of units that arrived from the USAF alone within a day or two of the storm hitting:

347th Rescue Wing (active duty) arrived on the 29th
563rd Rescue Wing (active duty) arrived on the 30th
920th Rescue Wing (Reserves) arrived on the 29th
16th Special Operations Wing (active duty) arrived on the 29th
58th Special Operations Wing (active duty) arrived on the 31st
943rd Rescue Wing (Reserves) arrived on the 30th
102nd Rescue Wing (ANG) arrived on the 1st of Sept
AFSPC combined units (active duty) arrived on the 1st.

In addition, the USAF, at the request from US Transportation Command, launched C-130, C-17 and C-5 aircraft from the following units:

317th Airlift Group (active duty), launched on the 29th
60th Air Mobility Wing (active duty), launched on the 29th
463rd Airlift Group (active duty), launched on the 29th
43rd Airlift Wing (active duty), launched on the 29th
305th Air Mobility Wing (active duty), launched on the 29th
347th Airlift Wing (active duty), launched on the 29th

There were more units, including Air National Guard and Reserve units that were launched after the storm, but we're talking active units. Those are the units I know for a fact launched aircraft and crews to start brining in supplies and people and evacuating survivors immediately after the storm hit.

Also keep in mind this list is USAF-centric, since I'm in the USAF. There were a number of active duty US Army, Navy and Marine helicopters that arrived or were already operating in the first 1-3 days after the storm.

By day 5, as you claim the military was finally allowed to help, there were already over 350 helicopters, most of them active duty aircraft, operating in the NOLA area. There were also over 100 fixed-wing transports, again mostly active duty, that had been flying relief missions into the airport. There were also several contingency response wings, which are logistical units, deployed to the region on the 29th, 30th and 31st respectively (615th, 621s, 818th and 821st). All those units were active duty as well.

[PacerLJ35]

186. So if I'm wrong, where did we send our ACTIVE DUTY aircraft and crews to then on the 29th of August?

I guess they decided to fly to Hawaii and wait it out, right? Amazing...I'm telling you that my squadron launched numerous aircraft filled with relief supplies into NOLA the evening after the storm and then flew nonstop for weeks afterwards, and you're saying I'm "wrong" because you can google it. Amazing...UFB.

[hack89]

90. That's a lie. nt

[NutmegYankee]

155. You are wrong - it was widely reported in papers

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/gq_report_blames_rumsfeld_for.html

Sure, the military showed up days later, but that was only after the massive outrage.

[hack89]

161. So why was the USS Bataan in position before land fall?

what about all those Air Force helo's flying missions on the 31st?

I think we are talking about two separate issues - there was no shortage of military helicopters and aircraft. Rumsfeld didn't want to send in ground troops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. That is what you are talking about

here is a time line

http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

[NutmegYankee]

166. They may have been the Air National Guard.

My post stated, as was widely reported after the fallout, that Rumsfeld did not allow Regular units to participate in the rescue for days. It was part of his downfall.

[PacerLJ35]

185. Active duty did in fact participate from day one

hack nailed it...the widely rumored statement that Rumsfeld withheld military help only applied to active-duty ground troops, not to logsitical, aviation and other assets.

August 29th: Units involved were 20-25 US Coast Guard helicopters (active), approx. 16 helicopters from the Louisiana Army National Guard, half a dozen helicopters from the USS Bataan (active duty), and a few helicopters from the MS Army Guard. USTC alerts and launches numerous fixed-wing transport aircraft from the active duty USAF, Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard, including the 317th Airlift Group at Dyess AFB (my old unit). Total number of aircraft from active, reserve and Guard units was nearly 100 heavy airlift airplanes.

August 30th: 347th Rescue Wing arrives (active duty) with HH-60G helicopters. 920th Rescue Wing arrives (Air Force Reserve) with HH-60s. Active duty US Army and Army National Guard helicopters from Fort Hood, Fort Rucker, Fort Polk and nearby bases/states arrive. 16th Special Ops Wing sends it's force of MH-53, HH-60 and MC-130 aircraft to help (all active duty). Several C-5 Galaxy cargo aircraft airlift the 615th Contingency Response Wing (logistics troops) into Lafayette, LA since the NOLA airport didn't have room.

August 31st: 563rd Rescue Wing arrives (active duty) with more HH-60s. More US Navy and active duty US Army aircraft arrive. The USAF airlifts the active-duty 621st Contingency Response Wing (logistical unit) into New Orleans.

September 1st: 58th Special Ops Wing (active duty) arrives with aircraft that are normally used for training, including HH-60s, MH-53s and UH-1Ns. Air Force Space Command (active duty) sends a number (8) of UH-1N helicopters. At this point, the C-130 training squadrons at Little Rock AFB halt training and launch their aircraft as well to help.

This is but a partial list, and primarily focuses on the US Air Force since that's the branch I am in (and the branch I am most familiar with). There were large numbers of active duty Army, Navy and Marine aircraft, logistics and other support forces that arrive in the same time frame.

[Hannah Bell]

40. they did.

[PacerLJ35]

44. We (the US military) had tons of aircraft down there

NOLA's airport ramp was MOG'd out...we were running out of room to put aircraft. Many crews operated out of derelict hangars in the half-destroyed NAS New Orleans, without power. We did all we could...you can't save thousands instantly.

[Hannah Bell]

67. bullshit revisionist history

[PacerLJ35]

70. So please, enlighten me to the facts...

When did the first US military aircraft arrive? How many were in operation? Where did they operate from?

You seem to have a better handle on it than somebody who had first-hand experience...

[Hannah Bell]

78. ...it took 7 days for those 360 helicopters & 93 fixed-wing aircraft to all get there.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33095.pdf

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06643.pdf

"By September 7, DOD assets in the affected area included
42,990 National Guard personnel, 17,417 active duty personnel, 20 U.S. ships, 360
helicopters, and 93 fixed wing aircraft.13"


on day two, these were the helicopters listed in the area by dod:

As of this morning, four MH-53 Sea Stallion and two HH-60 Seahawk helicopters from USS Bataan were flying medical-evacuation and search-and-rescue missions in Louisiana...(6)

Three helicopters from the Army's 3rd Corps, in Fort Hood, Texas, are in Baton Rouge, La., and two more in Mississippi to help with searches and rescues and damage assessments, NORTHCOM officials reported. (5)

In addition, five Air Force helicopters from the 920th Rescue Wing, from Patrick Air Force Base, Fla., and 347th Rescue Wing from Moody Air Force Base, Ga., are in Mississippi for search-and-rescue missions, officials said. (5 or 15)

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=16762

= 16-26 helicopters to cover an area as big as england.

that's not to insult the people flying those aircraft, it's to insult the people planning the logistics when they knew beforehand it was going to be major:


"By August 26, the possibility of unprecedented cataclysm was already being considered. Many of the computer models had shifted the potential path of Katrina 150 miles (240 km) westward from the Florida Panhandle, putting the city of New Orleans directly in the center of their track probabilities; the chances of a direct hit were forecast at 17%, with strike probability rising to 29% by August 28.<29> This scenario was considered a potential catastrophe because some parts of New Orleans and the metro area are below sea level. Since the storm surge produced by the hurricane's right-front quadrant (containing the strongest winds) was forecast to be 28 feet (8.5 m), emergency management officials in New Orleans feared that the storm surge could go over the tops of levees protecting the city, causing major flooding.<30>"

In a September 26, 2005 hearing, former FEMA chief Michael Brown testified before a U.S. House subcommittee about FEMA's response. During that hearing, Representative Stephen Buyer (R-IN) inquired as to why President Bush's declaration of state of emergency of August 27 had not included the coastal parishes of Orleans, Jefferson, and Plaquemines.<17> (In fact, the declaration did not include any of Louisiana's coastal parishes, whereas the coastal counties were included in the declarations for Mississippi<18> and Alabama.<19>) Brown testified that this was because Louisiana Governor Blanco had not included those parishes in her initial request for aid, a decision that he found "shocking." After the hearing, Blanco released a copy of her letter, which showed she had requested assistance for "all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting ."<20>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina


http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=16762

[hack89]

89. USS Bataan was in position prior to Katrina making land fall

and was flying missions the very next day.

I don't think you appreciate how vulnerable aircraft are to hurricanes - there is a good reason why they are all evacuated well in land prior to landfall. Once Katrina passed through and the winds were safe enough to operate helicopters, the military was there saving lives.

[Hannah Bell]

95. the dod release i linked lists uss bataan.

[hack89]

96. And the rest arrived over the next week.

I guess I don't see your point - what were you expecting?

[PacerLJ35]

114. Yeah, I know

You were using that link to show that the US military sat around for 5 days...the Bataan provided rescue helicopters THAT AFTERNOON after the storm passed.

[PacerLJ35]

92. Here are some facts from the AF Historical Research Agency

They compile the historical facts about the operation:

"Late on August 30, the Air Force Reserve Command’s 920th Rescue Wing at Patrick Air Force Base (AFB), Florida flew large HH-60 Pave Hawk helicopters to Jackson, Mississippi in order to fly FEMA damage assessment teams to the disaster zone. They and other HH-60s from wing’s 943d Rescue Group from Davis Monthan AFB, Arizona, soon began flying search and rescue missions over the disaster zone. Such missions commenced on August 31."

"At the same time, other HH-60s and HC-130s from the Air Force Special Operations Command’s 347th Rescue Wing from Moody Air Force Base, Georgia and 563d Rescue Group from Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona, performed similar search and rescue missions in the disaster area. The Pavehawk helicopters flew their missions from Jackson, Mississippi, refueled by HC-130s. MH-53 helicopters refueled by MC-130 tankers from the 16th Special Operations Wing, home based at Hurlburt Field in Florida, also took part in the search and rescue operations in the disaster zone."

"Between August 31 and September 10, USAF helicopter crews rescued 4322 people, 2836 of them by HH-60s, 1461 by MH-53s, and 25 by UH-1s. On September 4, the 347th Expeditionary Rescue Group rescued a record 791 persons in one day. Some missions lasted up to 11 hours at a time. The helicopters at first concentrated on search and rescue missions, hoisting victims stranded on roofs in flooded areas of New Orleans to dry ground, but later they carried refugees from shelters within New Orleans, such as the Superdome and Convention Center, to the New Orleans (Louis Armstrong) International Airport"

"Statistics prove the quantitative significance of the Air Force role in Hurricane Katrina relief operations. USAF helicopters flew 648 sorties, 599 of these on search and rescue missions that rescued 4322 people. Air Force fixed-wing aircraft flew 4,095 sorties, 3,398 of these on air mobility missions. USAF aircraft evacuated 26,943 displaced persons from New Orleans and surrounding areas to airports and bases outside of the disaster area. The Air Force air-evacuated more than 2,600 medical patients to medical facilities across the country. USAF medical teams at the New Orleans International Airport treated 16,714 patients, including more than 5,500 in two days. The Air Force airlifted 11,450 tons of relief cargo from various parts of the country to the disaster zone."

http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070912-046.pdf

From another source:

"Assault carrier USS Bataan (LHD 5) was already operating in the region as the storm approached. She steamed westward to embark four MH-53s from HM-15 based at NAS Corpus Christi, Texas, which joined two MH-60s from Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron (HSC) 28 already on board. Late in the afternoon of 30 August these helos began search and rescue operations in the vicinity of New Orleans. "

"On the afternoon of the storm, NAS JRB New Orleans' emergency management team quickly moved into action to clear the runways and repair the control tower. Within four hours, flight operations began when the first Coast Guard HH-65 landed at the JRB to start relief operations. "

http://www.helis.com/featured/katrina.php

"The Air Force reported 1,300 rescues and some 14,000 “transported” by September 4. By the end of Tuesday, August 30, the Navy ship Bataan — later slammed for inaction by New York Times columnist Paul Krugman — had five choppers flying rescue missions and had pulled out several hundred people. One Bataan airman, in an e-mail that was reprinted in his local newspaper, casually described how his helicopter had lifted 19 victims from the roof of a burning building. Other units on Day One came from as far away as Wisconsin, which sent two Black Hawks and three Hueys from the 832nd Medical Company and from the 1st Battalion, 147th Aviation unit. Three Hueys from the Georgia National Guard’s 148th Air Ambulance arrived Monday and flew nonstop from sunup to sundown. State Police and sheriffs’ departments operated rescue boats. Civilian search-and-rescue teams from out of state, and as far away as Canada, responded on their own. FEMA also operated search-and-rescue teams. A volunteer squad from Exxon Mobil pulled out 1,500 survivors all by itself. One pilot said he sighted a Chinook helicopter from the Republic of Singapore Air Force; improbably, such a craft was temporarily based in Texas, and, like exotic fauna washed in by a storm, may have become part of the aerial ecosystem.

By Wednesday, August 31, as the media screamed for troops to deal with the over-hyped breakdown in public order, more than 100 helicopters were flying rescue missions. Air traffic was so heavy that one pilot said the city looked like a hornets’ nest. Another, flying at night, compared helicopter ops to swarming fireflies. By the end of the week, crews had virtually run out of victims, and were shifting operations to dropping sandbags, evacuating the city, and assisting door-to-door searches by boat crews. "

Another account:

"(USS) Bataan provided relief to the victims of Hurricane Katrina. She was positioned near New Orleans prior to Katrina making landfall, and began relief operations on 30 August. The ship's helicopters were among the first to provide damage assessment. They went on to transport over 1600 displaced persons."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bataan_(LHD-5)

"ABOARD USS BATAAN, Gulf of Mexico (NNS) -- The multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) completed its seventh day of Hurricane Katrina humanitarian relief efforts in the storm-ravaged Gulf Coast region Sept. 5.

Four MH-53E Sea Dragon helicopters from Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron (HM) 15, based out of Corpus Christi, Texas, five MH-60 Seahawks from Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron (HSC) 28, based out of Norfolk, Va., and Bataan’s air department have conducted flight operations almost around the clock to assist in Hurricane Katrina relief efforts. "

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2005/09/sec-050905-nns04.htm

There are plenty of other articles detailing the massive US military operation that began literally hours after the storm passed over the area. My own former units, the LA Army National Guard's 1st Battalion, 244th Aviation Regiment and the 812th Medical Company (Air Ambulance) both went into action immediately, even saving one of their own pilots who then suited up and flew missions despite his house being flooded.

My current squadron at the time (39th Airlift Squadron) and our sister squadron (40th Airlift Squadron) had crews and airplanes in a bravo alert status (ie, be at work within an hour of being called) the DAY PRIOR to the storm hitting. They launched several aircraft in the couple days after the storm and joined 40-some-odd other C-130s also delivering supplies in and evacuating people and patients out. In ONE DAY, USAF aircrews evacuated 1,500 patients to surrounding hospitals...this was only a few days after the storm had passed.

You wish to paint the US military as if they did nothing for a week or more, but I know that wasn't the case.

[PacerLJ35]

94. You're missing a lot more too...

The 347th Rescue Wing provided 24 HH-60G Pave Hawk helicopters. The LA Army Guard had about 16 helicopters from their units already in place (about 10 or so UH-60s and 6 UH-1V Hueys). How do i know about the LA Army Guard? Because I used to be in that unit and my friends told me they went in immediately.

The 563rd RQW sent all it's available helicopters to the area on Sept 1st (another 10 or so), along with Kirtland AFB sending a number of helicopters that day as well.

The USCG had nearly 40 aircraft in the area within a day or two.

By Sept 1st, there were over 100 helicopters in the air. On day 1 of the operation, there were around 60-70 helicopters.

[pitohui]

50. yes they did YOU didn't but the usa did my friends were taken off a roof by canada

and there was much outrage that while usa gov't claimed they didn't know there was an issue in st. bernard parish where EVERY house EVERY house was flooded...but somehow the usa didn't know because the st. bernard parish pres (a repub.) couldn't call george bush (hello, the entire parish was destroyed) the usa left them to die

canada represented and some say without authorization went in there and the city of vancouver (a CITY helicopter force? city of calgary etc.!!!!) even the federal gov of canada wasn't there but CITIES in WESTERN canada found helicopters and were picking folks off roofs

and don't even try to tell me this didn't happen because i have personal friends who would be dead now if it didn't

[PacerLJ35]

52. There were over 350 helicopters rescuing people...of those, Canada operated 3

I'm not minimizing the Canadian's help at all, but your post is highly inaccurate...your going in position that the US military did nothing while Canada pulled their weight is inaccurate.

The USAF alone (and they don't own that many helicopters) rescued 5,000 people in the first week, and we (fixed wing aircraft) evacuated 25,000 people from New Orleans and flew in thousands of tons of aid.

So your friend can have his opinion, but I know what we flew in and out of there.

[pitohui]

55. yeah the pres of st. bernard parish tells a diff story -- and he's a republican

the fact of the matter is, you left those people to die and came back w. a story that he hadn't communicated w. fema

you don't know how many helicopters came in from canada because most came in w/out permission from the federal authorities of canada, people were dying and they just went ahead and got her done (canadian cities actually sent in crews!)

it isn't a matter of having an opinion, am i gonna believe you or my own lying eyes?

sry my friend, think i'll believe my own experiences not a rewrite from 5 yrs later

[PacerLJ35]

58. You have your experiences, I have mine...

We launched airplanes on August 30th and flew them full of pallets to KMSY, and flew out full of people...we did this for days on end. There were literally hundreds of helicopters flying all over the damn place. My former friends of the LAARNG (LA Army Guard) flew out of KNBG every day, without electrical power, and rescued lots of people all over the place. My good friend Nate spent hours upon hours sitting in his HH-60G helicopter rescuing tons of people off of rooftops, and I know for a fact that that was the story for literally hundreds of other aircrews.

The truth of the matter is that the storm destroyed a huge area, and even with 350 helicopters and dozens of heavy transport aircraft, we can't be everywhere every time. The fact that your friend was rescued by a Canadian doesn't change my view of what happened...it just so happened that they got to him first.

So spare me the "I'll believe my own eyes", because my squadron experienced it first hand too. Just because you saw .000000001% of the total picture does not mean that it applies to the rest of the story.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. The truth of the matter is that both are true and you know that

there were teams from all over north America launching... and not just the US Military.

It is also the case that a lot of the pre-staged gear that existed in the response plan drilled the year before, existed only in paper since it was not in CONUS. You know that, maybe, I know that for a fact. And that does not even take into account the destroyed equipment... or infrastructure.

It is also a fact that the US had to do something it has not done ever in her history by day 7 of the disaster, and that is accept the International Help that was coming in anyway.

And none of this detracts from the fact that the crews that were in the zone worked their asses off. But the people in the area are still pretty angry, and just like the Flood of 1927 this has marked them for the rest of their lives.

[PacerLJ35]

68. I'm not disputing that there were other teams and countries that helped

But this guy says only the Canadians helped and our crews (US military) did indeed leave people to die. You should know as well that the area affected was huge, and it was just not possible to have an aircraft over every area all the time looking for survivors.

The pre-staged FEMA equipment and other issues that broke down on behalf of FEMA wasn't the US DoD's problem...given the situation, I think the military did all they could to help and tried their best to be organized prior to the storm. Saying things like "you guys weren't there" and insinuating we were sitting at home eating cheezy poofs while people died and drowned, and the Canadians and other international teams bore the brunt of rescue ops is disingenuous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Here is a little thing I learned from doing this for real

you ain't gonna change feelings...

For those who didn't see crews, yes, they were left out to die. That is their reality. Yours is different, why I said both of you are correct.

That is the way they feel, and that's it.

Oh and I got the strategic view of this mess. So I know how large the response area was. Much larger than most people can comprehend, why I did what I did...

But my recommendation is, don't take it personally. Reality is, this response did suck, from many levels... need I mention convention center?


Oh and while you were busting your ass, the political games going behind the scenes were down right Machiavellian.

[PacerLJ35]

74. FEMA and politicians = FAIL during Katrina

But unfortunately those breakdowns were the only things people saw on the news. They didn't see our crews getting the call early in the morning the next day after the storm passed to turn props and begin a massive airlift and rescue effort.

The truth is, lots of people got rescued lots of ways...military aircraft weren't the only way people were saved...some people made their own way out, others got rescued by boat. But regardless of how people got rescued, it doesn't change the fact that the military folks busted their ass trying to save people and do what they could. Those on this website that jump in and tell me that my experiences are "bullshit revisionist history" are the ones that piss me off.

They are essentially saying I'm a liar, and of course that would get me mad.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. No, they are telling you their reality

This is something that rescue personnel, especially disaster personnel, learn to cope with.

In their reality they did not see USAF, MARINES, Coasties, Guard, personnel... period. Why? You said it yourself, the area.

By the way, the media did show US Navy choppers and coasties in particular doing SAR. They did not mostly show any foreign personnel.

But because at one point the area covered was what, four states? with about the square area of what California affected, no nobody could be everywhere... and truth be told we needed five times the help that FINALLY was accepted, at the very least. And yes the media did show the 82nd and the 101st by the way, as well.

[Hannah Bell]

66. george bush = murderer

[PacerLJ35]

69. I'm not talking about G. Bush...whatever decisions he made

doesn't change the fact that we were there trying to do our best, while others here would like to convince you otherwise.

[Fire1]

102. Ok. They FINALLY got there. WTF took them SO DAMN

LONG????!!!!!!!

[PacerLJ35]

109. They had aircraft operating the afternoon after the storm passed

Around 40 aircraft or so in the first day...that expanded to over 100 in the next two or three days, and by the end of that first week, over 350 helicopters alone were operating in the area. There were also nearly 100 fixed-wing transport aircraft flying supplies in and refugees out the day after the storm.

[Fire1]

112. Uh....that's not what I saw, but if you say so. n/t

[PacerLJ35]

116. My close friends whom I flew with for a few years

in the Louisiana Army Guard were flying missions as soon as the weather cleared. The Coast Guard was there that afternoon as well, along with US Navy helicopters. In all, nearly 40 helicopters were in the area by the end of the day.

Just because you didn't see it didn't mean they weren't there...were you traveling the entire disaster zone in that afternoon? Or where you in your particular section of the universe?

[Fire1]

118. Hey, I'm just going by what I saw AND heard from my "corner

of the universe." Btw, those were some damn fine actors on those roof tops and playing dead floating in the water. I'm sure they were paid well.

[PacerLJ35]

120. Nice dramatic flare...

Your last statement essentially implies that those of us who flew missions for the military saw the devastation as merely an act or fiction.

I'm sorry that the rescue aircraft didn't make it to you immediately...but that doesn't change the fact that they were very, very busy from day one. Friends of mine recall flying 11-12 hour sorties. Ever sit in a helicopter for 11 hours? It's not fun and wears you out. Crews were being forced to take a break and get rest.

There were a lot of heros and a lot of hard work in that first week or so after the storm. It's too bad you'd rather smear what happened because you didn't see it first hand.

[Fire1]

123. I haven't smeared anyone. But if this "rapid response"

actually took place, it seems to me there wouldn't have been nearly the number of casualties as there were! Now, maybe I'm missing something here, but even Bush ADMITTED he didn't take the storm "that seriously, at first." They fucked up! It's just that simple.

[PacerLJ35]

127. Bush didn't, but the military already had stuff in place ahead of time

According to the sources I can find, around 15,000 people were rescued from rooftops and other locations in the disaster area in the first week alone. 80,000 people were evacuated from the city by air. The Air Force alone treated over 15,000 patients at the NOLA airport in the first week. Military transport aircraft delivered over 11,450 tons (22.9 million pounds) of relief supplies.

Those 15,000 that were rescued would have likely died from exposure, dehydration, disease, fire or drowning had the DoD not been there.

[Fire1]

131. We all know that those who were alive by the time you got

there, were rescued. Noone is disputing that.

[PacerLJ35]

134. We're disputing when the military got there...

And around 40 aircraft immediately started rescue missions as soon as conditions allowed. These aircraft were mostly Coast Guard aircraft and National Guard helicopters, along with some Navy helicopters. Within a day or two, the USAF had shipped in several dozen helicopters as well, along with the US Army.

[Fire1]

152. How do you define, "immediately?" 48 hours was

literally, a day late and a dollar short. "Conditions allowed" less than 24 hours after the hurricane hit. It lasted through the afternoon and rescue efforts didn't begin until 48 hours later. There were people in neighboring states and parrishes willing to rescue people, only to be told they had to go through "regular channels." The president had to be forced by public opinion to fly over and assess the damage. He was on vacation when it happened and refused to return to the WH. I read where it took the senate FOUR DAYS to re-convene when this happened. But when Terri Shiavo was dying, it took them ONE DAY!! I don't know what these things tell you and frankly, I don't care. I'm not attempting to convince you of anything and you can defend your friends til eternity but I know what I SAW. I know what I HEARD, I know what I READ. All of these people telling the SAME story can't be wrong. It'd be different if I hadn't seen it for myself, but I DID. I know callous and indifference when I see it.

[PacerLJ35]

176. There were over 40 aircraft already performing missions

within 24 hours of the storm passing.

[Fire1]

159. And another thing. We also realize that the coast guard and

whoever else flew in the rescue effort, were following orders. I'd like to think that if you or your friends had any control over the situation, your efforts would have ensued much sooner.

[PacerLJ35]

177. This isn't Hollywood

We aren't given "orders". From my squadron's perspective, USTC (US Transportation Command) requests airlift capability from Air Mobility Command and 18th Air Force, who then places certain tails and crews into a bravo alert status. When the Tanker Airlift Control Center gets word to go, they alert the crews directly through our base's command post. The crews were alerted as soon as the storm passed.

The pre-positioned aircraft (from the US Coast Guard, Army National Guard and US Navy) were given an operational mission to start flying rescue/recovery operations as soon as the unit mission commanders (those that ran the deployed detachments of aircraft) determined it was safe enough for the aircraft to operate. They did not require some lofty high command order to do what they had to do.

Many people don't understand our military...most militaries in the world operate from a very centralized system where troops in the field don't do anything without say so from the higher ups. Our military is highly decentralized, and command authority can be delegated down to individual aircraft commanders in many cases. But typically, if there are a number of aircraft gathered together for a common purpose, an airborne mission commander is established and he or she is the one who makes the determination when flights start.

In the case of Katrina, USCG aircraft were airborne within 4 hours of the storm's passage, the National Guard and Navy aircraft soon followed. The flooding of New Orleans didn't begin in earnest until later that day and into the evening, so most aircraft in the first day or so concentrated in the harder hit areas like St Bernard parish. New Orleans had been considered "spared", at least until later on August 29th when the levees really started to break.

[Fire1]

192. Then pardon me. I'll change that to, "when you were given

authorization to conduct your mission." But my sentiments remain unaltered.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. No you were not dreaming.

you got a PM

[hack89]

91. I searched and can find no evidence that Canada

any helicopters beyond the three deployed on the Canadian Navy Task force. I know that Canadian search and rescue teams were deployed to NO but doubt that civilian helicopters were. In any case, the 350 American helicopters rescued the vast majority of those picked up.

According to this there were no civilian Canadian helos:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/dis_hur_kat_int_aid_res-hurricane-katrina-international-aid-response

This Canadian MP might also disagree with you:

http://www.johnmckaymp.on.ca/newsshow.asp?int_id=80290

Here is good site that tells the truth about the US military response to Katrina:

http://www.helis.com/featured/katrina.php

[Panaconda]

12. Powerful

indeed. Thanks for the truth.

[ThatsMyBarack]

25. You bet!

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[Desertrose]

48. Thx for posting this G_j

:hug::hi::loveya:



This picture speaks volumes.

[ThatsMyBarack]

6. Now, where's that photo?

Can some please help me find it? :shrug:

[G_j]

7. above

:-)

[ThatsMyBarack]

8. There it is!

Now to steal it for my desktop! Thanks, G_j! :hi:

[Blue_In_AK]

23. Here's the one I took

[stray cat]

9. I bet an American was on the boat that brought him to land - there were many American heroes

none of them paid. Likely non-Americans and illegal immigrants as well. Those neighbors and volunteers who risked their lives saving people long before any government help arrived are true heroes who should not be minimized by bloggers who did nothing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Well some of us bloggers did something about it

but that's ok.

Mostly share the secrets, which also allowed them FURIEGNER teams to come in starting with the Canucks oh about hour 36 of the disaster.

Plenty of hours spent on the phone by the way.

[Withywindle]

13. Isn't that a paraphrase/updating of a famous quote by Muhammad Ali?

"No Vietnamese ever called me a n*****"

[Radical Activist]

42. Yes. It's very clever.

And important.

[pitohui]

56. sure it is, it was meant to be resonant...we actually have smart people in the south

gosh who knew, if you're poor you're just automatically a dumb fuckwit, right?

not to pull the sarcasm icon on you, withy, i think you're a sharp cookie, but you're correct, sure we have political people in new orleans who would jump on the chance to say "eff you" to george bush...is there anything wrong w. that? i think there's a lot right with that

our side needs to be unafraid to use history, resonance, emotion...otherwise we're going to continue to get fucked by the sociopaths who aren't afraid to use ANYTHING

we need to get courage and stop being afraid to seize the moment to get our message across

was it crass for her to do this? why do you think so? how do you know she doesn't have a son in iraq? how do you know a lot of reasons she might have to leap on this and be bitter? i say to her, go for it...too often in the south we let "good taste" cause us to sit back and allow the bad guys to win

it was a GREAT classic sign and good on her to think of it, a lot of people at that time, myself included, were thinking ONLY of ourselves and those we knew, the war, what war?

[Withywindle]

97. Er....I don't think it was crass at all.

I think it was extremely appropriate, and timely, and witty, and hard-hitting. After all the "president" who started the Iraq war WAS the same one who left thousands of people on rooftops to die. He deserves all the verbal barbs he gets, and a hell of a lot more than that.

I just posted that because it sounded like a lot of people here didn't get the reference. I did. And I agree with it.

I don't know if you meant to unload on me but it kind of sounds like you are.

[AspenRose]

202. "Kind of?"

:wow: I have no idea where they got all of that by the simple observation you made.

[Rage for Order]

17. Apparently, NOBODY left that person on a roof to die

After all, they're still around to tell us about it.

:shrug:

[slampoet]

24. Wow. What great ignorance you are showing.

You don't know what that person did to survive.


You don't know if they said it into a video camera before becoming a bloated alligator eaten corpse and the person holding the sign is quoting their last words.


All we can tell is that you are dead inside.

[kas125]

39. Whether that woman was later rescued does not mean that the

government officials did not leave her and plenty of others in that city to die. They did, it was clearly shown on television news five years ago and again all this week in all the specials about Katrina. They DID leave people to die, for five days we watched as nobody came to help. Sheesh, where were you???

[PacerLJ35]

45. Five days as nobody came to help?

My VERY OWN SQUADRON had missions flying down there the very day after the disaster...and we did so for weeks afterwards. So don't tell me the US government (particularly the military) sat and did nothing.

[roody]

51. She is not saying that you did nothing.

She is saying that she has no conflict with Iraqis.

[PacerLJ35]

54. The sign makes direct reference to a common urban legend

...the very same legend that DU posters in this very thread are repeating...that the US government did nothing at all. Last I checked, the DoD and DHS is part of the "US government"...while FEMA fumbled and Bush put his foot in his mouth, the US military was flying thousands of rescue and aid sorties from day one.

The problem is, most people I talk to don't know that, and in fact the majority believe the US military did nothing for days or even weeks after the disaster. Just read the post from the person who said the Canadians were rescuing people while the US military was not...that is a falsehood and her sign only serves to insult the thousands who worked tirelessly to save as many people as they could.

[pitohui]

61. we're not trying to insult you who tried to help but...

please in the name of jesus the fact remains that i don't know personally anyone who was rescued by the usa gov't

i know people who got themselves out, i know people who got their family out, i know people picked up by canadians, because of family in tennessee i'm aware that al gore actually sent a plane and got a planeload of people out that he brought back, etc...but i for one don't personally know ANYONE not one human being or dog or cat who was picked up by the usa fed gov't

i'm sure YOU helped somebody, don't get me wrong, but the fact remains, we saw that people were stuck in the convention center and the superdome and the usa fed gov't didn't even airdrop them fucking food

if you wonder why we're bitter we're bitter because we only know what we saw

the usa fed response to katrina was pathetic compared to the size of the job needed doing, it's fairly undeniable

[PacerLJ35]

73. The USAF helicopter crews alone rescued nearly 5,000 people in the first week

Our crews (C-130s out of Dyess AFB in Texas) flew cargo and aid in, and evacuated people out, including sick and elderly that needed medical care. There was a massive effort on the part of the US military.

According to the numbers, the DoD flew over 12,000 sorties (flights) and rescued over 15,000 people from the floods, and evacuated over 80,000 people. I don't doubt those numbers because my squadron and dozens of others like ours were involved...I have lots of friends who have Katrina stories and flew missions in and out of there.

[Rage for Order]

194. Where was I?

I was on the Mississippi Gulf Coast assisting friends and family who had lost everything. Katrina hit on Monday, and on Friday of the same week I drove from Dallas to Mississippi with food, water, fuel, and other supplies. Where were you?

That woman says "No Iraqi left me on a roof to die". She didn't say the Convention Center, or some other place. She specifically said "a roof". I recall watching countless sorties by Coast Guard, National Guard, and US military helicopters rescuing people from rooftops. I also recall countless boats going through neighborhoods to rescue people. Some people were rescued immediately, some people were rescued after a few days. Is she upset that the helicopters didn't stop at her house first?

[kctim]

19. Ranks right up there

with 'Obama is Hitler' signs.
Dumbasses all around.

[WolverineDG]

26. That woman was at one of the largest anti-war rallies in Sept 2005

so apparently, she had a lot of fellow dumbasses to keep her company (including a fuckload of DUers, including myself, who were there & applauded her sign)

dg

[kctim]

206. Who cares where she was at

her message is ignorant and insulting.

[WolverineDG]

28. Photographic evidence of more dumbasses at the protest

dg

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. Good catch

I swear - some days I don't know whatever happened to the DU I used to know.

[WolverineDG]

105. me either

glad you were there & at Camp Casey :hug: :loveya:

dg

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. Going to DC on Oct 2 for another march

You should come!

[WolverineDG]

111. no tengo dinero

or I would be there with bells on.

I'll be with you in spirit, though.

dg

[Blue_In_AK]

22. Here's my shot of that sign.

[WolverineDG]

29. I was at that protest too

(see my pic upthread in response to the "dumbasses" remark)

dg

[pitohui]

63. nice photos from all yall

i remember the first jolt the first time i saw the sign, i would not have been witty enough to think of this, but it lifts you out of your own misery and reminds you that there's an (unjust) war on

[ThatsMyBarack]

27. I think the point of the quote and photo is:

In 2005, the idiot powers that were were too busy fighting an unnecessary war against "terrarists" to care about innocent American people suffering at home.

[ThatsMyBarack]

30. The responses to this thread are amazing!

Who knew?

[Blue_In_AK]

35. I agree.

It's rather shocking, isn't it?

[G_j]

37. I know, it's hard to believe, I thought they would be packing

for the pilgrimage to Becka tomorrow...

[flvegan]

41. I had to doublecheck the URL. Thought maybe I was "elsewhere" for the minute.

[Michigan-Arizona]

31. K&R n/t

[Wednesdays]

38. K&R

:kick:

[Puregonzo1188]

46. I think I was at the same protest. Was it the big one in September that year? You know the one with

600,000 people that probably wont get as much coverage as the Glen Beck rally tomorrow?

[WolverineDG]

104. Yes, the one with almost zero coverage nt

[Puregonzo1188]

47. Are people at DU now defending Bush's response to Katrina? Wow. (n/t)

[PacerLJ35]

49. Not defending Bush...defending what REALLY happened...

As a member of the military, I am appalled at the number of people in this country that believe the US military sat and watched people drown and die for days after Katrina...

The truth is, the US military established a task force the day before Katrina hit...nearly 5 dozen helicopters were staged in areas away from the storm path to respond immediately after it passed, including National Guard and USCG aircraft. After the storm hit and the magnitude of the destruction was assessed, dozens of active duty aircraft were also mobilized...within days, there were nearly 350 helicopters from the DoD and DHS operating over New Orleans alone.

My own unit at the time (317th Airlift Group) was had crews and aircraft put in Bravo alert, and the day after the storm passed, several aircraft and crews began to fly into KMSY (Armstrong Intl Airport) delivering aid and evacuating people...they did this for weeks afterwards, and they weren't the only units flying in and out of there.

They were primarily limited by available airfield facilities...KMSY and KNBG (NAS New Orleans) were the only major airfields that could sustain flight operations required for the operation...Stennis airfield, Keesler AFB and New Orleans Lakefront were all heavily damaged, although Keesler's airfield was cleared and operational about 1-2 days after the storm hit...and that involved fixing lights and removing debris, boats and other litter from the runway and ramp.

The USAF fixed-wing assets (C-130s, C-17s, etc) alone evacuated over 25,000 people from the gulf coast area alone, and this number does not include USN, Army and other aircraft used. USAF helicopters, which comprised only a small percentage of the 350 helicopters in operation, saved around 5,000 people in the first week alone (the USAF doesn't have a lot of helicopters...most of the 350 were Army, USCG and Navy).

The USAF's 347th Rescue Wing arrived on the 31st of August...our C-130s landed in New Orleans the day after the storm passed.

To say the military sat on the sidelines and did nothing for days or weeks is a myth at best and a lie at worst.

[Poboy]

60. 5 days after...5 days.

5 days. NO water. Not even kicked off the side of a helicopter.

Not in downtown New Orleans
Not at the convention center.
Not in New Orleans East.

No way. Its all documented.

No need to be so defensive, I don't think anyone is 'blaming the military' here.
And the sign is a mere reflection of the governments priorities and attempts to make a statement through contrast. I have no doubt you rescued thousands of people. Thank you.
...but it WAS 5 days.

[pitohui]

65. exactly the military has to follow orders

it isn't abt blaming the military, it's about we can't understand "why don't they drop them some bottled water" heat index 108 degrees..

[PacerLJ35]

77. Here's why they weren't flying around dropping bottled water...

Because the helicopters were flying out pulling people out of the water for several days straight...they honestly didn't have time to drop off food and water to people who weren't going to die immediately if someone didn't save them. It may not be what you wanted to hear, but it's the truth...when you have upwards of 50,000 people sitting on rooftops with no shelter from the sun, and on damaged structures that could collapse, many suffering from pre-conditioned ailments and needing immediate medical care, dropping water off at the Superdome can wait.

There's only so many aircraft and crews to go around...much of the limitations were due to lack of suitable airfields and infrastructure...several of the major airports in the area were destroyed. It would have been a much different story if hundreds or thousands had drowned because the rescue helicopters were too busy bringing in meals and water to people who had some kind of shelter and weren't in imminent danger. How you define imminent danger might mean different things to different people...no doubt those at the Dome probably felt they were in imminent danger, but contrast that to someone clinging to life on a flimsy roof with no shade, no water and on a house that might collapse....

[Poboy]

85. First, and again, I am not trying to blame you or any of your

crew. Not trying to blame anyone but those in charge. You did right by trying to get to the people you mention first, but whomever was responsible for accurately assessing and deploying personnel ignored the people at the places I mention.
There was a break down in the 'last mile' in getting supplies out. Supplies may have been piled up at the airport, but getting it to the people who needed it was not there. It was extremely hot. The temp was 95 degrees outside. 88 degrees in shade.
Also, I've heard about the lack of a place to land. This is not true. There are helicopter landing pads at the Dome.
And at the Convention Center, there is a huge field right there for supplies to be dumped off:



Go to this page to see it-
http://www.mccno.com/about-us/photo-gallery/

Eventually the helicopter did manage to find a landing spot:



A policeman supervised refugees at the New Orleans Convention Center on Sept. 2, four days after Hurricane Katrina hit.

-------

Yet the very effectiveness of the eventual military response - which climbed to 35,000 guardsmen and active-duty troops - only underscored questions that will long haunt Louisiana guard officials: Should commanders have moved their headquarters to higher ground before the storm? Could they have better headed off the lawlessness or built more resilient communications?

And especially, could they have moved more troops faster to New Orleans and other devastated areas?

"I think to a man, we will live with the pain of this experience," said Col. Douglas Mouton, 41, commander of 2,500 Louisiana Guard engineers. The restoration of order at the convention center, when it came, was "phenomenally quick," Colonel Mouton said. "I think the frustration we all have - the country has - is, why couldn't it have been done a lot quicker?"

It was Colonel Mouton who made the decision not to send his soldiers into the crowd at the convention center. A 41-year-old New Orleans architect whose own house was destroyed by the flood, Colonel Mouton defended that decision but said the scenes of anguish that became an international emblem of American failure were particularly painful for local guardsmen.

"These are fellow New Orleanians who are suffering," he said, "people that I go to Mardi Gras parades with."

---
The senior commander of National Guard troops at the Pentagon, Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, said the Iraq deployment did not slow the hurricane response. He said that Louisiana Guard troops were "in the water and on the streets throughout the affected areas rescuing people within four hours of Katrina's passing," and that out-of-state troops arrived as soon as they could be mustered.
But state Guard commanders disagreed. Asked whether the 3,200 soldiers deployed to Iraq could have made a difference, Lt. Col. Pete Schneider, a spokesman for the Louisiana Guard, replied: "Well, of course. We would have used them if we'd had them. We've always known in the event of a catastrophic storm in New Orleans that we'd use our resources up pretty fast."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/28/national/nationalspecial/28guard.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

[PacerLJ35]

93. The simple facts are:

There was an area from roughly Metairie all the way to beyond Pascagoula, from Slidell south to Venice, LA, that was utterly destroyed and flooded. There were tens of thousands of people that needed rescuing, and NOW. They didn't have a building to go into and escape the sun. They had no water whatsoever. There were no facilities to use the bathroom, not even overflowing ones. They were perched on the remains of buildings that could easily collapse or catch fire due to gas leaks, etc. There were injured and wounded that needed medical care ASAP.

I'm not trying to minimize what people went through at the Dome. Certainly some people did die at the Dome as was evidenced by news media. But the truth is, those people were on dry ground. They had a place to escape the sun. The Dome wasn't about to collapse or catch fire. And there was some semblance of people there trying to help and make things better.

Had the military diverted helicopters to pick up the Dome survivors, undoubtedly they would have been doing so at the expense of those who were clinging to wreckage and floating debris in areas that were isolated and cut off...hundreds, perhaps thousands more could have died.

People need to know that the Super Dome wasn't the only place that needed saving, and it was by far not the worst place to be after the storm.

Edit to add: I flew with the NOLA-based Louisiana Guard for 3 years out of Lakefront Airport. Both LAARNG units were involved in rescues from day one (1-244th Aviation and the 812th Medical Company). Both units were full of local oilfield helicopter pilots that knew about all the local heliports...and we all knew about the Super Dome helipads because we would land our aircraft there on occasion. But the Dome was bypassed for several days, again, because there were more pressing needs elsewhere.

[wtmusic]

125. Curious what you think could have been done better.

Should we have been better prepared, or was a disaster of this magnitude impossible to anticipate without 20/20 hindsight?

IMO most people were pissed that Nero was strumming a guitar in San Diego as the storm hit, then couldn't be troubled to go there and make it a priority. It was his 9/11 technique: disappear, make a joke, act stupid. Do anything but lead.

[PacerLJ35]

133. Bush was an idiot...at the very least, a public image nightmare

The problem with natural disasters like Katrina is if you've never seen something on that scale before, it's hard to plan ahead. My mom went down there as part of an environmental assessment team in the days after, and even she was suprised and horrified at the sheer scale of the devastation...and we had lived on the Gulf before and been through hurricanes. She witnessed the devastation of Camille, and Katrina was many times worse. At best, planning ahead for a Katrina event (without hindsight as we now have) is a guess.

On the 28th of August, the military stood up Joint Task Force Katrina in Mississippi. This was designed to have some kind of functioning command and control prior to the storm hitting. They pre-positioned around 40 helicopters in the neighboring cities like Mobile, Baton Rouge, Jackson and Shreveport. These initial helicopters were primarily US Coast Guard HH-65 and HH-60J helicopters, as well as about 16 aircraft from the LA Army National Guard (UH-60A Black Hawks from the 1-244th Aviation Regiment and 6 UH-1V Hueys from the 812th Med Co...I flew for both units in the 1990s). There were also about half a dozen US Navy helicopters aboard ships off the coast, and I believe the MS Army Guard had some CH-47 Chinooks on alert as well.

They had put my former airlift group into an alert status the day before, and we had several C-130H aircraft readied for flight. We weren't the only unit either...many Air National Guard, AF Reserve and active-duty C-130 units had aircraft on alert as well, including the C-130E training squadron (training at Little Rock AFB was suspended after the storm to free up airplanes).

Short of simply moving the entire US DoD down to the gulf coast ahead of the storm, I don't know what else they could have planned for. Other storms had formed and caused damage, but not on the scale of Katrina.

After the storm hit and everybody (but the president, apparently) realized it was really bad, the military took the unusual step of sending aircraft down that wouldn't normally be sent for these types of operations, including UH-1N Hueys from missile bases across the country, and even the training squadrons in New Mexico halted student training and sent their aircraft and instructors to the Gulf Coast within a day or two of the storm's passing. Within several days, the military had nearly 400 helicopters down there...and they weren't the only ones helping, since civilian helicopters helped too, such as PHI and Air Logistics. Overall, probably over 500 helicopters flew relief and rescue missions.

[wtmusic]

140. Great post, thank you.

You've provided more facts than I've read/heard/seen about Katrina in the five years since. So much bullshit everywhere, and everyone has an angle.

This is what chafes my hide:

"While no detailed proposals had yet been made to augment the New Orleans levee system to be capable of withstanding a category 4 or greater hurricane, in October 2004, the Corps of Engineers submitted a proposal to Congress requesting $4 Million to fund a preliminary study for such a plan. Congress tabled the proposal, never addressing it on the floor, citing budgetary concerns resulting from the Iraq War."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_preparedness_for_New_Orleans#Levee_preparations_and_funding_issues

We were out killing hundreds of thousands of not-Osamas and destroying non-al Qaeda installations on the taxpayer's dime, while legitimate safety concerns were ignored.

[PacerLJ35]

144. That is a valid point

I'm certainly not anti-military, since I'm in the military, but our country needs to get it's priorities straight. Iraq was an ill-timed and ill-executed mission. We've spent the past 6 years fixing the fact that there was no real plan in place post-invasion. I think the invasion shouldn't have happened in the first place, but geez, I am appalled at the civilian leadership (and some of the top DoD leadership for just "going with it") that there didn't need to be a post-invasion plan in place immediately.

Even the Iraqis I worked with, while glad Saddam was gone, stated we screwed up big time in letting so much time go by without doing ANYTHING.

Back to Katrina...one of the missions we take great pride in is knowing we're essentially our nation's disaster response team. It's obviously a secondary mission, but one we are still very glad to do.

[WolverineDG]

108. tell that to the people who died on the sidewalk because they had no water nt

[PacerLJ35]

110. So you're expecting perfection out of everyone?

Even with 300+ helicopters and thousands of personnel, they couldn't save everyone...there were literally tens of thousands that needed rescue.

[WolverineDG]

115. When I'm paying for it

seems to me that we pay y'all to do all this planning & strategizing & stuff, so surely SOMEONE could have taken some time to get water to the Superdome. Hell, some kids in a Hyundai drove themselves there, dropped off what they had & drove out. Or is that asking too fucking much from the "world's best?"

dg

[PacerLJ35]

122. Would the kids in the Hyundai been able to hover over a roof and rescue people about to die?

No, I didn't think so. Bravo on those others that did what they could do to help. I'm not going to take away from anyone who tried to help, unlike yourself...who seems to think that unless they get here right goddamn now and do it with perfection, it's a failure.

They are the worlds best. 50,000 people managed to be saved from those rooftops with just 350 helicopters. It's a miracle none of the aircraft ran into each other or crashed from being overweight or operating in dangerous conditions.

Ever do a hoist mission from 50 feet over a roof? I have, and it's fucking hard as hell. These guys were doing that for 11-12 hours a DAY. One unit alone saved over 740 people in one day. Yeah, what failures they were...

[WolverineDG]

151. But the military has more specialized vehicles

so why weren't they sent sooner? because if 2 teens in Hyundai could do it, what's the military's excuse?

dg

[PacerLJ35]

178. The teens were actually in New Orleans

Much of the surrounding parts of the city had been flooded. It's not like the teens drove in from Baton Rouge...if they had, they wouldn't have made it. The military was staged at locations away from the storm area, like Baton Rouge, etc. So by nature they had been cut off because many of the roads and interstate highways were under 5-15+ feet of water, depending on where you were.

And yes, they do have specialized vehicles for situations like that...they are called helicopters.

[PacerLJ35]

76. the US military did not wait 5 days to respond

My squadron flew into New Orleans on August 30th. That was the day after the storm. The crews that went there spoke of helicopters all over the place, and within a few days, the 50-60 helicopters that had been pre-positioned around the area had grown to hundreds.

The 347th Rescue Group arrived in New Orleans on August 31st. The 563rd a day later (they came all the way from Arizona).

The Superdome wasn't a priority in the first few days, because there were literally thousands trapped on roofs with no shelter or water, sitting on structures that could very well collapse. THEY were the priority. It was sort of like a triage effort.

[Texasgal]

103. Don't you get it?

Nobody is saying that the US Military did NOTHING. What we are saying is that the AMOUNT of aid obviously was not enough! I'm sorry but if we can mobilize and send thousands upon thousands of troops OVERSEAS to an unfamiliar country, feed, clothe and house them we can DAMN SURE get some water to Americans before FIVE days!

[PacerLJ35]

113. It takes much longer than 5 days to mobilize and deploy overseas

The fact that they had around 40 helicopters on station the day after...and over 100 in a couple of days...and over 350 in 5 days, plus over 40 C-130s and 20-30 heavy C-17s and C-5s flying round the clock within HOURS of the storm passing...

Not to mention...the only usable airfield in the area was New Orleans Intl...they managed to reopen Keesler AFB in Biloxi within a DAY (after removing debris, boats and other stuff from the facilities). We would have brought in more sooner, but there was no were to put the stuff.

[Texasgal]

126. Then something is wrong

something is wrong with our system. The basic element of WATER should be easy.

[PacerLJ35]

128. There are two ways of getting water to people...

Bottled water, or setting up water purification systems. The latter requires large pieces of equipment, and takes a while to get in place. This is often seen as the "long term" solution since it takes a while to get the equipment in place, hooked up and running. Bottled water is the short term solution since it's readily transportable, but it's still a limited quantity.

Once they got Keesler AFB open again (its runway had been littered with debris), they managed to ship in over 240,000 gallons of bottled water into just that location in the first week. That's a lot of water, and that was only one location.

[Texasgal]

141. Did you see that people were dying in the streets

due to no help?

Why are you defending this?

Yes, thank you for helping save some people, but godammit! We are the fucking USA! Can we not mobilize enough help to get people drinking water?

[PacerLJ35]

143. Answers to your question

"Can we not mobilize enough help to get people drinking water?"

No. Many roads were impassable. There were tens of thousands without basic needs. Many were facing impending death if nothing was done (death from drowning, fires, etc, not dehydration). Despite having dozens and even hundreds of helicopters available, it was impossible to get everyone everything they needed fast enough.

So they did what they could and went about rescuing those in the most dire of needs. Without phones, passable roads or other functioning infrastructure, the military didn't even know WHO to help first...they just went out looking. And from what I heard, it wasn't hard to find people who needed help, because they were everywhere. From Metairie east to Pascagoula, from Slidell south to Venice, the whole area was leveled and flooded. That's a huge area, and there were millions in need. Helping each and every one of them at once is an impossible task.

[Texasgal]

145. I'm sorry Pacer.

I am a former triage nurse. It's called a PLAN. We PLAN for the worse.

And NO, it wasn't IMPOSSIBLE. It was clear we didn't have enough help. Had we utilized everything possible there would have been less death.

Let's take a look at he superdome for instance, the government ( local ) obviously did not PLAN for that amount of people. The toilets backed up and there was water or food. Why is that? The superdome can hold thousands of people! Why no water? I get that the power was out but no water? Really?

Does the news of the old folks dying in their wheelchaird get to you?

The issue is NOT directed towards you, THANK YOU for your help... the LACK of help is what the REAL issue is.

[PacerLJ35]

147. I was a medevac helicopter pilot at one time

So natural disasters were our bread and butter. It's easy to look back on it and say "you could have helped everyone", but even with all our aircraft there (again, impossible for a variety of reasons, even if you count out the wars overseas) we couldn't have helped everyone.

Yes, I heard about the wheelchair patients dying. But did you hear that the USAF treated and evacuated over 5,500 patients within 48 hours from local hospitals? That included flying them to the airport, stabilizing them, and getting them on medevac-configured airplanes.

So while we couldn't and didn't do everything, what they did do down there was nothing short of amazing. One squadron with a handful of aircraft rescued 741 people from the floods and roofs in ONE DAY. There has never been a rescue of that magnitude, ever. Even if you divide that on a per-aircraft basis, that's still over 60-70 people each crew rescued in a 24 hour period...considering each HH-60G can carry 4-5 survivors...you can figure out how much work that involved.

When you've got aircrews flying 12, 14, 18 hours a day and being forced to get rest (to avoid accidents, making things worse) and sleeping on cots in half-destroyed hangars at the Naval Air Station...it's amazing that some people still have the nerve to say "you didn't do enough".

As for the plan...I've been through hurricanes before. My mom went through Camille, then thought of as one of the worst in modern history. Katrina was several orders of magnitude worse than any of those storms. It was the storm that exceeded the capabilities of the plans that were in place...and there were plans. I know because as a member of the 812th Med Company (Air Ambulance), we practiced it.

[Texasgal]

150. *sigh*

You are still not getting it!!!

There was not enough HELP. There was NOT ENOUGH AID. This is a breakdown in our government! If there was not enough HELP there should have been MORE. Your aircrew's wouldn't have had to fly 12,14,18 hours a day if there had been more HELP.

Please understand that I am not chiding you for what you have done, thank you for being of service. Had you had a couple of thousand more you may have not felt so much stress!

I think you are confused. I am not lambasting the help that happened. I am lambasting the help that should have been!!

[PacerLJ35]

179. There were a lot of factors you aren't considering

So what if we could have brought in 1,000 helicopters...where were we going to put them?

So what if we could have mobilized the entire Air Mobility Command and brought all 300+ C-130s and 200 C-17s to work...where were they going to land?

As it was, KMSY (Armstrong Intl) was chock full of aircraft. There was no more room. Keesler quickly became full of aircraft too once they finally opened the runway.

Logistics and equipment are limited by the space and ability to place it somewhere.

I do get it...I've worked with contingency planners for things like this. There are always things that constrain any effort.

Just like Haiti....aid coming in and people going out were limited by ramp and runway space.

[WolverineDG]

153. "collateral damage" does not need to be defended

You & I obviously need to be "re-educated" to forget that we saw people dying in the streets of New Orleans FOR DAYS because no one cared enough to do anything about it.

dg

[Texasgal]

158. apparently.

Uggg! :)

[PacerLJ35]

180. That's not considered collateral damage

And no, they don't tell us "it's ok to let people die"...however, when there are tens of thousands of people that need saving, you have to prioritize who gets rescued first. That's just a reality.

As I was saying to someone else...you could have mobilized every helicopter and airplane in the military, but you'd still be limited by ramp and runway space.

[WolverineDG]

195. You don't need ramps & runways to DRIVE relief in nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

198. But roads need to be passable and at 15 feet under water

they were not for the first two days.

So for the first two days, it was choppers.

Now there were a few battles after those first two days... where entering the zone, deeper and deeper, was possible, and where water was receding... as I explained to him there were major errors, not at his level... much higher. As in very much higher, way above his pay grade... at the level of Secretary of Defense to be specific, and Secretary of State... level.

What the people on the ground did, was in-spite of SecDef... but if they were not seen, they were not there. That is a lesson I drilled into my kids over and over and over again.

[Hannah Bell]

71. bush = murderer

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. You are defending Bush

and putting down DUers who marched with that woman a month after Katrina.

No one is saying the military did nothing. The point of the sign is THE PRESIDENT was too busy waging an illegal war on Iraq to get resources to New Orleans and the Gulf Coast in time to save lives. People died. The military was not there to save the ones who died. But that is not the military's fault. The fault lies in the lap of the president and his administration.

[PacerLJ35]

119. I am NOT defending Bush...

You seem to equate that since I'm challenging the conventional wisdom of the people posting in here, I'm somehow saying "Gee, Bush was a heckuva guy wasn't he!".

NO, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying this:

1. Common opinion is that the military sat idle for whatever reason for days. The military was responding even before the storm hit. 40 helicopters had already been positioned in nearby areas, and JTF Katrina was formed 2 days prior. The day after the storm, USTC alerted dozens of fixed-wing assets to fly relief supplies in immediately.

2. Others have the opinion that the military failed to do anything about the Superdome situation until several days later. The truth is, the military was task-saturated trying to rescue thousands of people from imminent death. The folks sitting on dry land with a roof over their heads would have to wait, even if they weren't in the best of conditions. There were others that were far worse off.

So no, nothing of that has to do with defending Bush as a president. I'm defending the people who planned and executed the largest search and rescue operation in our nation's history. They deserve the credit that so many people strip from them.

If anything, I dislike Bush even more because his bungling that made the national news spilled over and now people just assume that anything and everything having to do with the relief operation was a failure. There were failures...massive ones. But most of those failures were on behalf of FEMA.

Everyone should be glad that the military and the DoD leadership had the foresight to preposition aircraft and supplies ahead of time, and form their OWN chain of command and communications structure...had they simply waited on FEMA and the federal government to do something, far more people would have died.

[WolverineDG]

107. well, in a way you did

I don't know what more y'all would have needed to find the fucking SUPERDOME, but it took more than 5 days for rescue to get there.

dg

[PacerLJ35]

117. Read this

The military knew there were people at the Superdome...but there were literally tens of thousands of other people in much more dire straits than the Superdome crowd. Had they focused on evacuating the Dome, hundreds if not thousands would have drowned or died from exposure or other issues. The truth is, the folks at the Dome at least had some kind of shelter...

Ask yourself this...if you were stuck on a roof top, on a building that was near collapse...with flood waters rushing around your home and weakening it, and there was NO food, water or even a place to use the rest room...how would YOU feel if you saw helicopters pass by you to go bring water to the people at the Superdome, who had access to dry land and shelter?

THAT is why it took a while to get to the Dome...there were higher priority operations. This coming from my friends who flew their tails off with the LA Army National Guard.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. What did I tell you about realities?

This happens in every disaster around the world.

I briefed my disaster personnel on this, as they say in depth, while in training. I also advised them not to take it personally. Your command did you a disservice, since they obviously did not brief you.

And yes, it is HARD not to take it personally when I know you were busting your ass, and so were your buddies, but truth be told... your reality is not the reality of the people who were there and never saw the rescue teams, or were lucky in a way and only saw the foreign rescue teams.

Truth, as I told you yesterday, is that we needed five times the help that finally came in, and that was needed on day two, not day seven.

Of course I am talking of the strategic level. I am also talking of something that most people have no clue, as to the games that were going on just to get in country what finally came.

[PacerLJ35]

124. Perhaps you're right

Those individuals that felt left out of the rescue operation felt abandoned. But that's not what I'm speaking to. I'm talking about the overall national impression that's touted in the media and among conventional wisdom from others I speak to that weren't there in NOLA, and the common opinion I find is that the government and the military did nothing until it was far too late.

Of course it would be nice to have 5 times the aircraft and equipment...I don't know of a single relief operation where the commanders and leaders on the ground said "we've got too much equipment and supplies". When you're dealing with a huge natural disaster that affects millions and has ravaged thousands of square miles, there's simply no realistic way to have everything you need to make everyone comfortable and safe within 24 hours. I know you work logistics and I know you understand that concept.

I think it would be nice if the public could know that although FEMA dropped the ball, and the president acted aloof and didn't have a commanding handle on the situation, there were thousands of people that DID respond, and they did so as fast as they could, with as much equipment as they could.

One of the issues we ran into was the MOG at the airports...just like Haiti, there simply wasn't enough room to operate any more aircraft. The other airports large enough to handle our aircraft (Stennis, Lakefront, Keesler) were strewn with debris and facilities were damaged or destroyed. It's a miracle in itself that they got Keesler open and operating within 1-2 days.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. There are several things going on here about the

impression.

You can blame CNN... but CNN was right... you can blame MSNBC, but again they were right.

They were, their reporters, in the middle of it. So they had to work with the exact same impressions as the rest of the residents in the zone. Even when they were also showing Short Haul vertical evacuations, mainly COasties, but also some Navy. As well as C-130s flying out the elderly and the mess that was DMAT V if I remember at the airport...

As to FEMA... yep, failed, miserably, and Bush took oh 48 hours to take it seriously. Ergo, the impression is that nothing was done right. Hell, my local FD team left and was used in a photo op 36 hours in... those firefighters, against dept policy, were talking about it, and were not happy. And truth be told there were so many breakdowns at all levels that I was shaking my head. They were the kind I expect in a place WITHOUT the communications and equipment, and that does not take it away from the people in the field. Those were COMMAND level decisions, at both the civilian and the military level.

As to landing equipment etc... these are some of the things that you had no way to know. But we had offers from all over the world for equipment, including ships capable of landing and operating choppers... some of them (Canada and Mexico) launched 36 hours into the mess, but could NOT enter US waters until they got official permission. That alone could have added operational capacity. So you had ships loitering off the 12 mile zone for a few days. That is where the politics came in. And trust me, they were ugly.

I know... I got involved in some of that crap... and I will leave at that. But I had the strategic bird eye view, including teams sitting on tarmacs waiting for the all clear to launch all over North America...

I also worked my ass off, just in a different way.

But I am aware that for tens of thousands you were never there, and neither were all the teams from all over the world that finally managed to come in en-force by day seven when State finally folded it's hands, because help was already coming in. Nor do I expect any thanks or even acknowledgement that any of this ever happened. I know in the eyes of the people who never saw a damn thing, this never happened. That is the reality, and their anger is fully justified... try to look at it from their point of view.

[PacerLJ35]

136. The best thing we can do about the negatives of the operate

is to learn from it. There are ALWAYS breakdowns at some level in a major operation. I have yet to participate in some exercise, operation or other action that didn't have "issues", some of them major.

Personally I am glad we have the military and Coast Guard that we do have...because without them, thousands more would be dead now. That's the bottom line.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. The bottom line is that you got to accept

that the people here are living in a different reality. They expected perfection...that is what people have been trained to expect for ever.

The usual instruction is to be ready to be on your own for 72 hours... and to be able to maybe self rescue.

That is civil defense. Somehow it did not quite work that way... and if water had come down on choppers to the Superdome by day three... that would be within what people were told to expect. It would be acceptable. I know why it didn't happen by the way... don't need the reasons... though I have had a few discussions with Red Cross members about that one, which is another fuck up...

The plan drilled the year before had that happen by the way.

It didn't... and one of the reasons was the equipment in Iraq... as well as major fuck ups at higher levels. Truth be told at all levels of government, military, and NGOs.

But at the bottom line, this is why people are telling you what they are telling you.

Be proud of what you did... just don't expect a thank you.

In ten years I got two thank yous... that's the way it is.

[PacerLJ35]

146. 18 years

I've been in the military for 18 years in one capacity or another...4 years as an enlisted combat engineer...another 4 years as a warrant officer helicopter pilot, and the past 10 years as a C-21 and C-130 pilot. I have yet to see perfection. I've seen some damn fine work...very good work. But there's always something that didn't go as planned or didn't work like we wanted it to.

I've also come to learn that the bigger the operation, the more moving parts there are...and the more moving parts, the more chances for something to fail or not work as advertised. But that's why we're trained to adapt and continue on. And we do...we recognize the failures and flops and overcome them...work around them...but in all cases get the mission done.

Water to the Superdome would have been easy...they probably would have had it there in a day or less, had there not been an area the size of a small state wrecked, flooded, burning and destroyed, with thousands of people screaming for help. But the truth is, you didn't have to venture out far from the airport to see people struggling to swim against the flood current...people standing on roofs while their homes crumbled underneath them...so much mayhem that anyone who was on dry land and wasn't facing the specter of immediate death was deemed "ok...for now".

It was not a good situation to be in.

I don't expect a thank you, because I wasn't the one flying missions over New Orleans. But countless friends and coworkers did do just that. I listen to their stories and I'm amazed...I remember what it was like to fly helicopters under "good" conditions, and it hits home that these people are all heros. The ones that organized them are heros too...and yes, there were upper levels of command involved. Maybe not the executive branch, but someone, thankfully, took charge and made the tough calls.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. I know some of the folks who made the tough calls

That is why I am aware of the politics involved. And it was not at the upper levels to be exact.

[roxiejules]

132. Thanks for your hard work

[PacerLJ35]

137. Thank you...

Although I wasn't one of the crews flying 12 hours a day hoisting people into helicopters. I used to do that in the 1990s but gave that up to fly airlift aircraft (C-130s). I can't imagine all the work they put in. Flying helicopters was hard work. No air conditioning, wearing helmets, gloves and flight suits, and sitting in a machine that vibrates like crazy. Longest I flew a helicopter in one day was 7 hours, and I was beat...and all we did that day was ferry National Guard personnel around the state. Hovering over a roof with someone on the hoist is dangerous and difficult work. Practicing for an hour took a lot out of me. The fact those guys did it all day long for days on end amazes me, and it should amaze everyone else too.

[slackmaster]

88. I'm not. But the story is not as simple as "Bush fucked it up."

We learned about Hurricane Katrina in my US History class in my senior year of high school.

The teacher was a retired civil engineer. He explained in great detail how the Army Corps of Engineers had erred in its hydrological engineering of the region. We learned about which levies and parts of the city were most vulnerable. He made it clear that the disaster was going to happen sooner or later, and that for political reasons nobody was going to do anything about it.

I graduated from high school in 1975. My first reaction to Katrina was "That crabby old wind-bag Mr. Lynn was right!"

[tourivers83]

169. You are right.

Everybody had known for years and years what was going to happen to New Orleans when the big one hit. It was no secret. Especially after what had happened to Galveston with maybe 12000 killed in 1900.

[ThatsMyBarack]

101. 100 responses and 36+!!!!

Yowza! In all my DU life I've never had a thread take off like this before! :wow:

[Obamanaut]

129. Several days notice that a HUGE hurricane is expected in the neighborhood,

which is built pretty much below sea level, and near that very body of water - and people seemed surprised that they had to get on the roof.

[Swamp Rat]

135. Bzzt! Wrong! New Orleans was NOT "built pretty much below sea level".

Stop blaming victims of a disaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans

[Obamanaut]

139. Thanks for the link. Here is an excerpt from it

"Large portions of Orleans, St. Bernard, and Jefferson parishes are currently below sea level — and continue to sink. New Orleans is built on thousands of feet of soft sand, silt, and clay..."

Oh, and the levees that keep the lake and the river at bay.

[Swamp Rat]

142. ... due to SUBSIDENCE, not because it was 'built below sea level"

Also, some residents did not even know that a large cyclone was heading for New Orleans; they were either too poor to own TVs, or they simply unable to leave.

This City was built on the highest ground in the delta region.

What about they levees? Do you want to know something about them?

[PacerLJ35]

148. The original city was built on the highest ground

The old part of the city was built on higher ground, but as the city expanded they drained the wetlands and built levees and expanded into areas that were really unsuitable for building structures. Even to this day, many parts of New Orleans suffer from subsidence issues. I can remember at family members homes, doors not shutting right, etc, because the houses were basically slumping.

[Swamp Rat]

154. My closet doors won't shut anymore

and I'm jus' above sea level (and I don't live on 'Monkey Hill' :D )

[Poboy]

157. Its amazing. Lots of people talking out their asses on this.

"Oh, why didn't they just leave?"

I have been here most of my life. I've been through maybe 10 hurricanes, beginning with Betsy. I've never left for ANY.
I grew up going through these things. We know the drill. We all know how to prepare, what to do, what to get, and what to expect.
This one was shaping up bad though. Its the first one I left because of, ever. Some just couldn't afford to leave.
I have stayed put for two subsequent hurricanes since. Didn't move an inch. I'm well stocked, and again, if the engineering were properly done, the city would be safe even through Katrina!

Unbeknownst to us though, the ARMY Corps built faulty levees, and they failed this time.
So this time, even though the people who stayed may have prepared, they had to abandon their spots and head out.


...and ther is NO EXCUSE for not kicking over bottles of water to the Dome or Convention Center. The poster above tries to make excuses, but come the fuck on. 5 fucking days to dump a few cases of fucking water???
NO FUCKING EXCUSE.

[Swamp Rat]

163. Yeah you right!

Same here... everything you just said. Got the same ol' axe in da attic too... but the life vests are new.

I spent more than a few hurricane nights on the levee, a few block away from my house listening to "When the Levee Breaks."

Betsy was fucking bad, but Katrina was MUCH WORSE, mainly due to the WORST GODDAMN PRESIDENT in American history.

edit:

I made this in a motel room in Memphis the Wednesday after:

[Fire1]

165. Absolutely. n/t

[PacerLJ35]

182. Well maybe you should be in charge of the next large rescue/recovery effort

And when people start telling you how you failed to save hundreds on roof tops that were about to die while you wasted aircraft to carry water to those already on solid ground, you can give them the answers. Because obviously those in the media light at the Dome were much more important than everyone else.

There were a lot of hard calls to be made...that was one of them.

[Obamanaut]

189. So, my statement was correct "...which is built pretty much below sea level..."

Regardless of how it came to be, the fact remains that parts are below sea level.

[Swamp Rat]

190. Nope

Here are your exact words in your first post: "Several days notice that a HUGE hurricane is expected in the neighborhood, which is built pretty much below sea level, and near that very body of water - and people seemed surprised that they had to get on the roof."

The Wikipedia link I gave you says this: "A recent study by Tulane and Xavier University notes that 51% of New Orleans is at or above sea level."

So, I guess you are wrong because '51% of New Orleans is at or above sea level' does not equal 'which is built pretty much below sea level'.

If 51%+ of the City was built below sea level, then you would be correct.

In your second post you said: "Regardless of how it came to be, the fact remains that parts are below sea level." - Ok, this statement is correct.

Nevertheless, the most interesting thing you said was "and people seemed surprised that they had to get on the roof."

No, they were surprised that they were left there so long, and without water.

[Obamanaut]

191. Allrighty then, it's to be a quibble over wording. "Pretty much" is not

really a scientific term, nor is it an accurate measurement - I can give you that.

But, if 49% is at or below sea level (the remainder when 51% is at or above), that is still 'pretty much' a substantial chunk of real estate.

"is built" and "exists" are quite similar, not exact, but similar.

"was built" is not. Part of NO 'was built' in areas that previously was higher than today. Because of sinking, part of NO 'is built' (exists) on a level that could be considered to be in a flood danger zone.

[roxiejules]

174. The National Weather Service Alert was most chilling....

The bulletin was described as "perhaps the most chilling ever issued by the service".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Weather_Service_bulletin_for_New_Orleans_region


...DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED...

HURRICANE KATRINA...A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED
STRENGTH...RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES
AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN
AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING
INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

[uppityperson]

175. kick for this

[RetroLounge]

183. I am amazed that people on DU are defending the response

:puke:

What the fuck has happened to this place?

RL

[uppityperson]

184. Reading through the whole mess, all I can guess is communication issue here, difference between

what some did (extraordinary things) and if that was enough (which it wasn't). The response of those who were there was a lot, but it wasn't enough and a lot of help was actively blocked.

However, I did tire reading the whole mess, may have missed some defending the response also.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. BINGO

and as I tried to explain to the DU'er who was there as part of the rescue effort. It don't matter how much he worked his ass off. If he was not seen, he was not there.

This I drilled into my kids when training them for disaster services.

Your response (in the eyes of those in the receiving end) is as good as they are able to see you, or not see you.

It don't matter if the response is flawless (at a theoretical level, and this wasn't) If people don't see it, you were not there. Period.

He is taking it personally, since well, he was there, busting his ass and so were his buddies. He is also trying to explain to people valiantly mind you, what was done from word go. Yes. it was done... but the response at the strategic level had way too many problems... and yes there were sub rosa battles to get help in at the highest levels of government. He has no way to know of them. And I only know of them since I got involved in the way I did get involved. Machievelli stopped being just a nice read after that week to me.

[Fire1]

193. I only know of one. n/t

[slackmaster]

201. I don't see anyone trying to justify the poor management or lack of leadership of the response

To me, the biggest lesson to be learned from Katrina is this one:

The city's flood-control systems failed as a result of a patchwork design plus decades of half-measures and neglect.

The levy system did not withstand the level of storm for which it was supposedly designed. It was an engineering disaster.

Lesson number two is that people at all levels are reminded to plan for the worst foreseeable disasters for a given area.

[Spider Jerusalem]

196. Reminds me of 'No Vietcong ever called me n*****', for some reason...

[Rebubula]

203. LOL...

...You think???

Thank you for pointing out the obvious.


/just busting your chops, but the connection seemed pretty blatant.

[divineorder]

205. It needed to be that blatant

For all of the folks who pride themselves on the supplies they have for preparation and what not, remember there is a whole America who lives literally paycheck to paycheck. They can't stock up much supplies because they live in rented places that are small enough for housing but have little excess capacity. Because everything they buy to eat needs to be eaten by the end of the month. There are millions who can't evacuate because they have no cars and there are no buses once you leave a certain area outside the city limits and can't afford hotel rooms without some sort of payment. Of course, we could have prebuilt dormitories where those who have no place to go could stay until they can get or find a place, but all of the conspiracy theorist would scream "FEMA camps" or that it was some sort of welfare. Let's not forget the elderly who have a hard time getting around without help, or who need their medications, or who have no family at all that can or will help. It's their fault these people can't bring anything with them or evacuate the area.

Those people were failed by everyone because they were considered expendable. Add the blatant racism in the "bridge" incident or in the shooting of "looters", and it's no wonder why the people feel Iraqis were considered more of a priority.

[ensho]

204. kick

nt