Is This Really My America? America's firefighters are...

[McCamy Taylor]

Sometimes you have to wonder if the picture painted of our country by the Internet is accurate. Or, does Google show you a Hieronymus Bosch version of reality?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_H6XW_a4TYus/Sezksyf3X5I/AAAAAAAAAoI/KgDNBYc3uN8/s400/Hell+Hieronymus+Bosch.jpg

I decided to search the Internet. Here is what I found. Welcome to America. I hope you enjoy your stay. Oh, and do not miss the poll on your way out.

This is out of control. Become disabled in the Military and you get health care. Become "disabled"in the fire department and get half a million dollars, free health care and a fat retirement. I can't tell you how many times I see the Fire Department working out at the Gym or in the local grocery stores stocking up on food supplies. On the other hand, I don't see alot of fire trucks zooming around town responding to fires. What a racket!

http://www.lvrj.com/news/firefighters-rank-prominently-among-countys-top-wage-earners-62091347.html

"Firefighting is a cushy job."

http://www.slate.com/id/2090573

During discussions on how to confront the city's growing budget shortfall, he singled out the fire department for reducing its current-year budget by just $39,000 at a time when the community services department is slashing more than 10 times that amount. "It's almost like the fire department giving the city the finger," he said.

http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/2009/04/firefighters-are-extremely-wealthy-and.html

"Firefighters should stop whining, you've got it good and the public is on to you."

http://www.topix.com/forum/source/san-mateo-daily-news/TRB8DO321OV6EHOVQ

When firefighters are supposedly working - they are actually sitting around the firehouse reading porn - as reported by the real news - and sexually harassing women staff members and monitoring San Jose Mercury News posts - to enhance their image and protect their overpaid salaries and benefits -

http://forums.mercurynews.com/topic/illinois-mob-shoots-fireworks-at-police-firefighters

"They don't care about public safety; they care about their pay and benefits."

http://forums.mercurynews.com/topic/san-jose-firefighters-respond-to-three-blazes-in-less-than-two-hours

"The problem with fire (as with police and other public employees) is only half fiscal. The other half is cultural. We've spoiled them."

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100530/A_NEWS0803/5300302

Firemen are overpaid. Miami-Dade County is facing a $400 mil to $500 budget gap. Union employees must take pay and benefit cuts. Of course, union employees are free to leave the public payroll and try their luck in the private sector.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2010/05/natacha_seijas_has_a_message_f.php

"There a bunch of whiney over paid cockey jerks. I am glad the public is now aware of this outrageous abuse of tax dollars."

http://www.mynews3.com/story.php?id=12499

"Hogs at the trough. Cut 'em off NOW."
http://www.mv-voice.com/news/show_story.php?id=3179

Don't blow smoke up the ass of someone who knows the facts, who used to stop by fire stations every night to take a leak or write a report in the Fire Station Parking lot. The overtime for the F.D. is outrageous, what do you guys knock back on a 24 hour shift, $1,300 to $1,500 for just another 24 hours on shift. You know what it is called when everyone works for the government? It is called COMMUNISM!

http://rate.forbes.com/comments/CommentServlet?op=CPage&pageNumber=2&StoryURI=forbes/2009/0216/078.html&sourcename=story



" If you and 3\4 of the f-ing fire jocks in BPT were not MINORITIES you wouldn't have the jobs and you all would be lucky if KMART or WALMART would hire you! "

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/07/30/news/doc4c52b7eeb06ab741496290.txt

"(M) aybe getting paid 90 percent of one’s maximum pay for another 25-30 years for doing nothing isn’t so unjust, as they received high salaries for working very little before they retired."

http://www.sthelenastar.com/articles/2010/04/09/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/doc4bbd1d023d0cb671236585.txt

Given the relative lack of formal education most of these people have (very few have advanced degrees, and many don't even have a bachelor's degree), their compensation is probably higher (depending on what municipality we're talking about) than it should be, given the compensation paid to others in the public sector.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/are-we-paying-our-cops-and-firefighters-too-much/question-1171657/?page=6

"We pay, they play."
http://miamiforchange.blogspot.com/2010/05/day-184-firefighters.html

"If these heroes don't think that they are overpaid, they should have a reporter follow them for a week and see how much work they actually do. That will never happen because it will expose how overcompensated they are."

http://www.lvrj.com/news/firefighters-fight-uphill-battle-explaining-wage-concessions-90817764.html

Just saw on MSNBC that Rep. Danny Rehberg is attacking Montana forest firefighters for burning trees on his property. The sub for Ratigan rightly criticized Rehberg's greed and praised heroic firefighters, but didn't point out that this is par the course for Montana Repubs. Then-Senator Conrad Burns called firefighters lazy in 2006

http://mydd.com/2010/7/6/repub-rehberg-attacks-firefighters-again

"Fire all the union monkeys and start over. Overpaid, underworked pratt boys."

http://www.lvrj.com/news/county-fires-back-at-firefighters-99518164.html

Thats the truth of the gravy train. Those days are over. Many communities all across the state are trimming the fire service and its about time. There was a need in the past to have a larger fire department but with these economic times have changed.

http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/2010/02/07/opinion/srv0000007526142.txt

"Firefighters are parasites. Over paid lazy goverment union trash. Privatize NOW!"
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/aug/03/county-firefighters-union-spar-over-contract-negot/

[sendero]

1. The truth hurts...

.. study after study shows public employees are paid way more than their private counterparts for the same work.

You might think this is fine but people struggling to feed their family and pay the taxes that pay these salaries and frankly often exhorbitant pensions do not. If you think all of those sentiments are coming out of thin air think again.

[Canuckistanian]

4. So, the "private market" salary is the golden standard now?

No, just the opposite.

Government workers should be the standard for pay, compensation and union benefits.

The average worker's REAL, INFLATION-ADJUSTED pay has fallen ever since Reagan.

Is this the way you want it?

[sendero]

9. Yes it is..

... why should taxpayers pay more?

[Canuckistanian]

19. It's not a matter of "taxpayers paying more"

It's a matter of the private sector paying fair wages. And when they do, the government takes in more revenue in taxes.

Thus, the system stays intact.

[EstimatedProphet]

7. Wow, that's a lot of bullshit.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[EstimatedProphet]

14. I don't need to refute it

It's not true on its face.

[sendero]

16. It is true and ...

... you cannot refute it. Nice try.

[EstimatedProphet]

18. It's not true, and it's absurd.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[depakid]

25. Wow- gotta say, that was an impressive resentment driven rant

Sounds like someone who's been reading too many newspaper comment sections, listening to AM and Fox "news."

Here's a clue: other far more successful nations don't ascribe to your erroneous beliefs- which is part and parcel to why they are successful- and why your nation is in a downward spiral toward third world economic status.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[sendero]

29. And while I'm at it..

.. it amuses me that folks here will get all (correctly) righteously indignant about our country paying Xe mercenaries $150 an hour to fuck around in Iraq but they don't have the same problem when public servants are overpaid.

What up wit dat?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[depakid]

30. Failed ideology- and the politics meism and resentment

America's problems are both structural (it operates under an archaic system of government that can neither reform itself its constitution, nor as structured- respond to feedback and adapt to changing conditions in the 21st Century).

AND cultural (part of which is attributable to a consolidated media that has rendered its citizens incapable of distinguishing objective fact from outright falsehood- and that ends up reinforced on media like the web).

Thus, unlike a nation like Australia, you're politically (and culturally) incapable of enacting responsible economic policies that would stave off recession or deal with drags on the economy- or fiscal policies that might bring in the necessary revenue to fund government services (and your own standard of living).

Since you can't bring in revenue from the sources with the most ability to pay- you end up in decline, closing schools, libraries, parks, losing law enforcement and firefighting capability- all the while increasing wealth and income inequality to levels characteristic of third world nations.

This in turn denies communities the multiplier effects that go along with a healthy and vibrant middle class- and a lower class with enough of a safety net to spend money that supports local businesses.

Public employees are a very important source of those multiplier effects- in some areas they are vital to them, which means layoffs and salary cuts only further the downward spiral (as opposed to creating stimulatory effects).

In short- the politics of resentment is nothing more than cutting off your noses to spite your faces- the consequences of which are clear for everyone around the world to see.

[sendero]

33. Laughable overanalysis..

.. for a simple situation, some public employees are OVERPAID.

[depakid]

35. Some people see simpistically in black & white

or, in a slightly different pathology- Manichean thinking.

Others look at the facts and do the analysis.

Good luck during the decline- you're going to need it.

Meanwhile, we'll be building schools, libraries, hospitals, opening new parks and public transport- all the while paying our teachers, firefights, cops and other public servants double or triple what they make in the states.

(Then again, out minimum wage is also $15.00). Now, repeat after me, multiplier effects.

In a nation on the rise.

[DonCoquixote]

37. neither reform itself it's constitution

did you mean "itself nor it's constitution?"

As far as archaic, while there are some details I might change (like our senate), I do think our Bill of Rights needs keeping. Problem is not that the Bill of Rights is bad, just that we do not abode my it to it's full extent like we should.

[depakid]

49. Yep- that was a typo. Thanks for spotting it

It's not the Bill of Rights per se, but the inability to Amend the Constitution under Article V. Corporate control of the media and political system render the necessary supermajorities quite impossible

Thus, a case like Citizen's United, which further and rather profoundly corrupts the political process, cannot be set right.

Likewise, the arcane (and IMO http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11geoghegan.html?pagewanted=all">unconstitutional) rules of the Senate requiring 60 vote supermajorities for most every piece of legislation prevents the nation from responding to problems and rapidly evolving challenges of the 21st Century.

To use political systems scientist Karl Deutsch's analogy from his seminal work "The Nerves of Government," the nation has lost it's steering mechanisms, and will inevitably end up crashing on the rocks.

[chervilant]

59. And,

Let us not forget that the uber wealthy have worked diligently (of late, by owning and controlling the vast majority of the media) to convince the hoi polloi that the wealth carrot meme is an ironclad guarantee, and complete justification for the hedonistic ponzi scheme we call capitalism.

Thus, pathetically ignorant people (eg, those like the author of the first response to this thread) will argue with their last breath that firefighters and other government employees are overpaid.

[depakid]

66. Can't argue with that

On the other hand, it IS an important part of the social contract to make certain that ethics laws are both respected and enforced.

Otherwise, as we have seen, corruption will only reinforce these sorts of opinions.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Taverner]

17. You're full of it

Private Sector pays much more than public sector jobs

Firemen make a good wage, yes - but they call that 'hazard pay.' When they do put out a fire, its deadly work.

[ShamelessHussy]

21. instead of begrudging your neighbors pay, you should ask why not you and yours

instead, the elites will make you want to take the food off your neighbors plate, so they can have even more for themselves.

:shakes-head:

[mmonk]

28. Not anymore.

They tend to be victims of your thinking today. Budgets always getting cut and any raises always deferred. So there are more and more people with less money buying less goods while the remaining jobs are targeted to leave. The Reaganomic supply side religion left out an important part of economics. It's called demand. I guess that is why they call it supply side? And income taxes keep get lower and lower and the coffers running on red ink and more budget cuts. A low wage country is a third world country (or soon to be).

[Hannah Bell]

57. sickening to see democrats spewing winger talking points. sickening.

[rpannier]

64. Well Zell Miller is still a Democrat

Maybe the above poster carpooled to the Republican Convention with Zell

[rpannier]

63. The Winner of theStupidest Comment on DU for 2010

Congrats

[cyberswede]

69. Links?

Do you have links to these studies?

Here's one:

According to a study by economists Keith Bender and John Heywood comparing private- and public-sector workers' compensation over the last 20 years, once variables like age and education are factored in, state employees earned 11 percent less and local workers earned 12 percent less than their private-sector counterparts. According to Bender and Heywood, "Over the last 20 years, the earnings for state and local employees have generally declined relative to comparable private sector employees."

Bender/Heywood study: (http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/final_out_of_balance_report_april_2010.pdf)

Link to article: http://socialistworker.org/2010/08/18/greedy-government-workers-myth

[Celeborn Skywalker]

72. How sickening and pathetic.

You sound like a teabagger. Fucking shameful

[liberalhistorian]

74. What people who complain about the taxes and pensions fail to

realize is that they'd be paying SO MUCH MORE if they had to pay directly for such services themselves. Period. And if someone is willing to take a job where they could die horribly in a fire trying to save my house or my family, or be shot to death while trying to protect me and my family from criminals then, as far as I'm concerned, I have no problem paying for good compensation and pensions, especially if they're disabled.

Maybe YOU should try doing those jobs for just a couple of days if you think it's so goddamned cushy and they're paid too much. Or the next time you need a firefighter or policeman, try to take care of things yourself. Yeah, that'll be SO easy.

[Swede]

75. You are so wrong on this sendero.

Private sector wages have been stagnant since 1980. You are siding with the millionaires and billionaires squeezing more out of the little guy.

[MilesColtrane]

78. That may have to do with the fact that there are more union members in the public sector.

Unionize and better wages and benefits will follow.

It's not a zero sum game in which we have to tear someone else down in order to do better for ourselves.

[LanternWaste]

79. I believe you are conflating the words 'opinion' and 'truth.'

I believe you are conflating the words 'opinion' and 'truth', and then adding an element of drama to your opinion with the addition of your "people struggling..." anecdote.

However, if you have an objective and peer-reviewed analysis that the problem lies with the "exorbitant" pay of the government sector rather than the stagnation of wages in the private sector, I'd love to consider it...

[SnowCritter]

80. You wouldn't mind providing links to some of

those studies, would you?

The last time I checked (a couple of months ago) I found that the exact opposite was true (at least in my field, Information Services, where the private sector pays about 20% better than the public sector).

[uncommon]

81. The private sector underpays workers.

However I do think that there are some public sector workers who are very overpaid for the work they do.

[LiberalLovinLug]

83. Which ones?

Its appalling that there are folks here that have bought into the wingnut talking points. That it is more about reducing the pay of public sector workers, and less about raising the minimum wage and helping to ease laws to help organization of unions in the private sector. If "the private sector underpays workers" why not concentrate on that instead of green-eyeing your fellow workers on the public payroll who actually...gasp...earn a decent wage?

[midnight]

2. I love fire fighters. One time a bat was found in my mothers

tub and we tried to usher it out of the house with a broom and the next thing we know it's wing is stuck in the door. My mom called the fire dept. and those guys came and took him out peacefully. The only thing we wish was that they didn't stick on their sirens to rescue us from the bat. Another time some some young kid started my garage on fire, they came peacefully did their job and were so polite. I think every penny paid for their training and service is money well spent.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. I spent 12 years as a city councilperson in a small town.

The top 7 highest paid employees were the 7 firefighters. None of them would take the fire chief's job because it didn't pay enough.

The top paid firefighter was also one of the town's busiest general contractors. Did he build houses on the side, or did he ride an ambulance on the side?

I know of only one profession in which you are paid while you sleep.

In my area firefighters are spoiled. The are also Republicans.

[sendero]

31. Careful...

.. you are going to upset the delicate sensibilities of those who think that paying any amount of taxpayer money to any beloved subset of our workers is just ok.

[lumberjack_jeff]

40. In the microcosm with which I am familiar...

... public works employees, clerks, building officials, public health employees and police officers take their lumps because firefighters get first turn at the trough.

They get first dibs by using the volunteer fire organization as essentially a political party. When a councilperson gets on their bad side, they pay a visit to the elderly voters in town "if you don't vote for our guy, your ambulance service is in jeopardy."

Vote for us and no one gets hurt. If anyone wants to make me sympathetic toward public employees, firefighters are the worst example they could use.

[rpannier]

65. Wow

A city councilman in ONE small town and that makes you an expert on the inner-workings of ALL municipalities

I'm impressed

My mother was on the city council of a small town for the last 9 years of her life and she was Police Commissioner all 9, yet she never achieved your lofty status of being an expert of the workings of police departments for all municipalities

It must be that last 3 years that does it

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Does "village idiot" pay well?

I made clear in both posts that my experience was limited to one small town.

The firefighters in that small town *are* spoiled.

[rpannier]

71. On edit

Apologies
I missed the subject line

I stand corrected
You have my sincere apologies
You did reference only your experience

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. I overreacted.

Mea culpa.

:hi:

[Nailzberg]

5. I'd invite any of those people over for dinner at my house.

And then crack their heads open with a Halligan.

[madrchsod]

6. boy oh boy, another post that`s going to bring out the dead.....

so it`s my


to you......:thumbsup:

[McCamy Taylor]

8. But I really want to know, is this my America? That's why I decided to ask DU.

[madrchsod]

22. i read the same shit here in ronnyland....

the firemen here have free medical-just for them but their dependents are around 125 a month. i know one woman that subs(teacher) and works full time in the summer just to pay the insurance and out of pocket for her and their three kids.

[EstimatedProphet]

10. So do these people want more fires, so the firemen will earn their keep?

They are on call 24 HOURS A DAY. Of course they get paid for hanging around the fire station - they have to be ready to go in a moment's notice!

[depakid]

12. Proving yet again that there are a LOT of Americans who deserve exactly what they're getting

which is a nation in inexorable decline.

[AsahinaKimi]

13. In southern California..

They always get a lot of work..







and are very much appreciated..

[madrchsod]

24. and to many die.....

[flvegan]

23. This type of person thinks they're overpaid...until they have to dial 911.

They're fucking pathetic.

Firefighters, police (at least the good ones) and teachers...I'd be hard-pressed to think of three more important jobs.

[JanMichael]

27. Bingo again! It's all a waste of "money" until you are about to burn...

...or drown, or get robbed, or need financial assistance like a section 8 housing voucher, or die, or have any other complaint under the sun.

People never realize the importance of public services until they feel they "REALLY" need them. Then they love it and give out flowers and water....

[Brickbat]

32. If these are such awesome jobs, who's the sucker who isn't applying?

[Odin2005]

34. What a bunch of resentful pricks.

[McCamy Taylor]

36. Want to discuss the multi-billion dollar private firefighting industry? Or should I save that for my

next OP? I am dying to know which companies do all that federal fighting (most of which has been privatized) and which organizations they fund and which politicians they support.

[Historic NY]

38. Wow, and I thought everyone loved FF's but hated cops....

perhaps its time to go back to the time where if you didn't pay for the firemarker on your property the fireman stood around and watched it burn.

[McCamy Taylor]

44. Me, too. I was really surprised when I started by GoogleQuest today.

I thought firefighters were as American as Mom and apple pie?

Do you think they will privatize "Mom" yet? Oh, wait! They already have!

http://www.ct.gov/dcf/cwp/view.asp?a=2552&q=317058

[DonCoquixote]

39. Two guesses who most of the people who

wrote this crap were, a bunch of GOP turds who probably are quite overpaid at their Dilbert offices.

[EFerrari]

41. Firefighters saved my neighbor's home this afternoon

and likely stopped the fire from visiting our place.

San Jose: Firefighters responding to 2-alarm vegetation fire, 2 homes threatened

By John Woolfolk

[e-mail]
Posted: 09/02/2010 03:44:02 PM PDT
Updated: 09/02/2010 07:04:03 PM PDT

With temperatures nearing 100 degrees in the east San Jose foothills Thursday, firefighters scrambled to douse a grass fire that charred five acres and came within about 20 to 30 feet of a few homes.

With high temperatures expected again today, the city ordered nearby Alum Rock Park to the north closed to the public today citing "extreme fire danger."

Thursday's fire was reported at 3:01 p.m. near the intersection of Mount Pleasant and Clayton roads, and firefighters were on the scene in seven minutes, San Jose Fire Capt. Chuck Rangel said. Together with firefighters from the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, they had the blaze under control by 4:47 p.m., he said.

"The danger has passed," Rangel said, though he noted that Cal Fire will keep watch over the burned area to ensure it doesn't reignite.

http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_15976009?source=rss&nclick_check=1

[DonCoquixote]

42. if they ever privatize firefighting

expect a lot of homes to burn, and a lot of arson. Funny how building that stand in the way of a developers'd dream just might burn, or the house of a candidate.

[Historic NY]

53. Where have you been its been privatized for years....Rural-Metro

http://www.ruralmetro.com/products_fireservices.asp

[EstimatedProphet]

70. "A lot of arson" - exactly!

If you've ever been out west or to Alaska, you may have heard stories that sometimes people start wildfires intentionally. Why? Because the Forest Service hires contract labor to fight fires. If someone is out of work, it's an easy way to get some work fast.

[w8liftinglady]

43. maybe I'm the wrong one to ask

as a nurse,I have worked side-by-side with many firefighters/ems ... as well as supporting each other and crying on shoulders when they ran dead kids/parents in the er.
as a patient,I was rushed to the ER more times than I realize before my brain surgery.They performed excellently,and supported my kids through this with great kindness.
Anyone who wants to be critical about downtime-wait until the storm hits that destroys half a neighborhood...and the firefighters are there-saving humans and pets.They seem a little more valuable when it's your ass they are saving.

[McCamy Taylor]

46. Waiting for someone to suggest they work like waiters---for tips.

[EFerrari]

48. People finger fire fighters like tourists point to volcanic cores

in the landscape along highways in the southwest. They don't see that working conditions for most American jobs have been so eroded that the deal fire fighters get now looks out of place, like an anomaly.

[McCamy Taylor]

50. In this recent international poll, firefighters are most trusted.

http://www.ct.gov/dcf/cwp/view.asp?a=2552&q=317058

Which means that the US is either seriously out of step with the world, or the comments posted on the Internet do not reflect real America.

[McCamy Taylor]

51. And in 2007, US said FF most prestigious job after scientist and MD.

Did public opinion do a 180 in three years? Or are proponents of privatization paying people to post on the Internet?

http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2007/12/19/firefighter-executive-summary.html

[chervilant]

60. hmm...

Obviously, option 2.

Sad, how many of us are greedily lapping up the bipartisan red herrings promulgated by the Corporate Megalomaniacs bent upon sucking the last drop of lifeblood from us all.

[jasperilla]

52. My dad was a NYC firefighter

...as was his dad before him. Yes they "sat around" alot. Waiting to be needed. Spending days on end away from the family on "tours of duty"..waiting for that call that they hoped would NOT come. I could not be more proud of my father's contribution. Does he have a good pension - yes. Is he rich - no. COuld he have made more money in the private sector - probably, he is very intelligent, and earned a masters degree. I am sick of this greed fest. I think our teachers, cops, and firefighters (among others I am sure I am inadvertently leaving out) should be extremely well paid for what they give to SOCIETY. Thank you for posting this,

[DonCoquixote]

54. Maybe if some of the NYFD

knew how some people felt about their colleagues, they could have stayed home on 9-11.
No, they would not, and did not..

[McCamy Taylor]

55. Don't despair. The more I read the more I suspect the "We hate FF" Internet movement is

really a product of the "No health care reform" industry. Left wingers said "How can public medicine be bad when the fire department is public" and so the health care industry and its Tea Baggers decided they had to attack the FF, too.

I'll be writing more on this. You can count on it.

[jasperilla]

84. you might be onto sumthing there McCamy n/t

[tucsonlib]

56. Hope This Settles The Matter

Sorry for the length, but I think this is an important issue. The following is the text of a guest opinion piece from the Tucson Weekly:


I was privileged to serve as a 911 fire and medical dispatcher for the city of Tucson for nearly 15 years, before retiring in 2001. The city's Communications Division and, of course, the Tucson Fire Department itself are staffed by the most professional, highly trained and dedicated people you could ever hope to find.

In my experience, residents living within the Tucson City Limits could, with rare exception, count on an emergency-response time of less than five minutes. In the case of a possible structure fire, a full alarm contingent was sent. The welfare of the public always came first. If in doubt, it's better to send too much help than too little. Residents in other municipal fire districts—Flowing Wells, for example—received similar, excellent protection.

Unfortunately, it was a different story for many who resided in unincorporated areas of Pima County. Their fire protection, rather than being funded through the taxes they paid, was contracted out to a private corporation. Residents were required to sign a contract and pay annual "premiums" to the company. If they chose not to sign up, yet still needed fire service—say, for example, that a house caught fire—the company was still required by law to render assistance. But the luckless homeowner would soon receive an itemized bill—often for several thousand dollars—in the charred mailbox, demanding payment for "services rendered."

Though I don't have the hard stats, I remember that the response times in these areas were consistently slower than the Tucson Fire Department's response times. In addition, fire authorities would send the bare-minimum amount of equipment and personnel, until or unless they received confirmation that more help was needed.

In one archetypical incident several years ago, smoke was reported coming from the roof of one of the area's landmark restaurants. Since, after all, there could be any number of innocent and harmless explanations for the smoke, just one fire engine was initially dispatched. At the time (I don't know whether or not they've since changed their policy), their fire-engine crew often consisted of a single firefighter. That's right: one. Including the driver. Tucson Fire Department engines always carried a crew of four. Not surprisingly, by the time additional help arrived, it was too late to save the building.

The entire sad spectacle is captured in a photograph taken of the scene. Parked in the foreground is a solitary, lime-green fire engine, with its hapless occupant. In the background is the doomed restaurant—its roof already fully engulfed in flames.

Why the vast difference in service levels? It's very simple: Private, profit-driven companies are cost-conscious. They are responsible, first and foremost, to their shareholders. They provide the cheapest level of public safety they can get away with. The Tucson Fire Department, on the other hand, is taxpayer-funded, nonprofit and government-run. I worked for the people of Tucson—and their well-being, not some corporate bottom line, was my only concern and motivation.

Does any of this sound familiar? The next time you hear someone claim that government can't do anything that private enterprise couldn't do better, think about your fire and police departments. They're nonprofit, government-run, staffed by government employees and funded by taxpayers—and they provide every single citizen with the same excellent level of protection.

That's right, folks: They are socialist organizations. Sound "evil" to you? Would you really want profit-motivated police and fire departments, controlled by the "free market"? Of course not.

Now ... let's talk health care, shall we?

[jonathan_seer]

58. As recently as 2003 an overwhelming plurality of firefighters identified as Republican

So why is this a Democratic Underground issue?

In a 2008 poll commissioned by the national union to decide who to endorse in the presidential election some interesting information can be found regarding the union firefighter.

Most interesting is despite 8 years of Bush/Republican hell, 34% of firefighters registered as Republican vs. 31% who registered as Democrats.

Perhaps this Republican leaning results from the fact that as "Union Members" they make far far more than the average American salary.

In the poll of a 'representative sampling" of firefighters only 8% made LESS than $50,000, about 2/3 made MORE than $75,000.

Are there many teachers that make that much?

Firefighters were evenly split with a slight advantage to McCain - DESPITE answering all the questions about who was better for firefighters with Obama.

While fewer and fewer firefighters identified as Republicans after 2003, it didn't benefit Democrats.

While their general attitude regarding the nation circa 2008 was similar to the general publics, it was not a stand out as one would expect from "Union" members.

So to answer the question regarding an anti-firefigher" campaign in the Internet, I suggest perhaps it is an actual response from the the millions of working men and women who do NOT have Unions and make a fraction of the salary of a firefighter, and work regular schedules that do not allow for making money on the side.

The anger is perhaps a reflection of so many finding out that rather that firefighters are NOT in the vanguard of those with the union mentality; finding out that the fire station is more likely to be a bastion of "I got mine screw you Republican thinking" full of mostly still white men (89% of the poll) who are very conservative except when it comes to their own pay and benefits issues.

Just a thought.

The poll you can read for yourself

http://www.nolafirefighters.com/items/Zogby.pdf

[chervilant]

62. Oooooooooo...

Oooooooooooo, Zogby! Such a stellar source of unimpeachable survey results... NOT!

That "I got mine screw you" thinking is now ubiquitous, and more a construct of the supporters of capitalism than any specific political party, religion, race, gender or creed. Moreover, regardless of political persuasion, race, religion, gender or creed, we are "all bozos on this bus"! We cannot exit this planet at the next galaxy. If we cannot constructively channel our anger and resentment into positive strategies that benefit the vast majority of humanity, we will continue to witness the inexorable decline of our entire species.

And, how ironic that anyone should choose firefighters as examples of egregiously overpaid workers, when CEOs now enjoy compensation that's as much as 500 times higher than the average employee's pay! Where is your outrage over that disparity?

[ieoeja]

82. We're liberals. We care.

You could write the same thing about the military. They are overwhelmingly Republican nowadays. But that hasn't stopped us from pushing for better pay and benefits to both active duty and retiree alike. Nor has it stopped the Republican party from pushing for cuts to pay and benefits.

The majority of people using the various forms of welfare are white conservatives who mostly vote Republican. So should we oppose welfare?

[JVS]

85. Oh. That makes me feel better.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

61. Read about one of those lazy, greedy firefighters here:

http://wcco.com/local/minneapolis.firefighter.therapy.2.1893984.html

Obviously an overpaid leech on the city's backside.

:sarcasm:

[Yavin4]

67. Next Time Your House Is Burning Call On The Invisible Hand of Free Enterprise

And see how that works out for you.

[blueworld]

73. My father was a Fire Captain & died at 36. He never lived to collect a f&&ckin' pension

He was trained as an EMT as well as a firemen, which is the case for many urban firehouses. Yes, he had some wait time, thank God, but it was to be available to a community that might have needed him.

He rescued victims from house fires, car fires, industrial fires with fumes that could kill the whole town, explosions, car accidents. He tended to people who shot lighter fluid into their summer BBQ's & watched the can explode in their face. Or kids who blew their hands apart with fireworks. They still have a picture of him 3 stories up in a coal bin fighting a raging fire at night on a freakin' ledge next to a rail yard.

Firemen do INSPECTIONS of all schools & businesses in their areas. They lecture & teach & service equipment. They raise enormous amounts of money for local charities & individuals ON THEIR OWN time. And if, after giving their lives in service, they live long enough & haven't destroyed their own health, they're entitled to a pension.

What are the benefits Federal, state & municipal for all the f**cking lying scumbag politicians aides & advisors who get pensions even if they're kicked out or serve jail time???? And PS - my old man served in the Phillipines in WWII as well. Quite a lot of service for a young man - a hero. :rant:

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

77. I stood up for the firefighters here not long ago

and was met with unremitting derision. Go figure.

You just jumped feet first into a lake of fire. Sure hope there's a fireman around to help get you out of it!!!

My sister's living room after the fire a few weeks ago:



Her home: Totally destroyed by fire.

The two homes 10' from hers on each side: ZERO damage.