Engagement broken off over high student loan debt

[Liberal_in_LA]

How Debt Can Destroy a Budding Relationship

Tami Chappell for The New York Times

Published: September 3, 2010

Nobody likes unpleasant surprises, but when Allison Eastman’s fiancé found out four months ago just how high her student loan debt was, he had a particularly strong reaction: he broke off the engagement within three days.

Ms. Eastman said she had told him early on in their relationship that she had over $100,000 of debt. But, she said, even she didn’t know what the true balance was; like a car buyer who focuses on only the monthly payment, she wrote 12 checks a year for about $1,100 each, the minimum possible. She didn’t focus on the bottom line, she said, because it was so profoundly depressing.

But as the couple got closer to their wedding day, she took out all the paperwork and it became clear that her total debt was actually about $170,000. “He accused me of lying,” said Ms. Eastman, 31, a San Francisco X-ray technician and part-time photographer who had run up much of the balance studying for a bachelor’s degree in photography. “But if I was lying, I was lying to myself, not to him. I didn’t really want to know the full amount.”

At a time when even people with no graduate degrees, like Ms. Eastman, often end up six figures in the hole and people getting married for the second time have loads of debt from their earlier lives, it should come as no surprise that debt can bust up engagements. Even when couples disclose their debt in detail, it poses a series of challenges.

When, exactly, are you supposed to reveal a debt of this size during the courtship? Earlier than you’d disclose, say, a multiple sclerosis diagnosis or that you have the gene for Huntington’s disease?

Even if disclosure doesn’t render you unmarriageable, tricky questions linger. If one person brings a huge debt to a relationship, who is ultimately responsible for making good on the obligation? And if it’s $170,000, isn’t the more solvent partner going to resent that debt over time no matter how early the disclosure comes? After all, it will profoundly affect every financial decision, from buying a home to how many children to have.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/your-money/04money.html?_r=1&hp

[Taverner]

1. Yet more evidence that marriage is a LEGAL CONTRACT

Not some lovey-dovey romantic or religious act

[The Northerner]

10. I couldn't agree more

[xultar]

30. +5

[kctim]

2. She should consider herself lucky

doesn't sound like the marriage kind of love to me.

[Rage for Order]

3. $170,000 for a degree in photography???

It'd be one thing if it was for medical school or law school, or an Ivy League education, where one has a good chance of earning more than enough to justify the $170k debt load. I hope Ms. Eastman is related to the Eastman of "Eastman-Kodak" fame.

[Liberal_in_LA]

4. and a BA degree at that! She must have floated the entire cost of a 45K year school

on student loans

[NeedleCast]

14. That seems like the common element in a lot of these tuition debt stories

Sometimes you don't get to go to a high end dream school. That's reality. I wonder, especially with a degree in photography, if a potential employer really is going to care that much where you went to school?

[EFerrari]

47. It's not only about a prospective employer looking at your resume.

It's also the networks you get into during college that could lead to that employer. Plus, some of those schools have much better financial aid resources than the lower cost state schools. There are a lot of pieces to a choice like that.

[d_r]

29. NO.

It was 100K. She was paying 1100 a month, which was less than the interest. It was piling up on her. She owes more now than she borrowed.

I understand it, because my wife and I had a combined $100K that is now $240K. I also understand why she wasn't following along with keeping an eye on the growing total.

[Fool Count]

49. How does $100k debt generate more than $1100 a month in

interest? Did she charge all of it on credit cards?

[d_r]

57. if you get behind you start getting fees

[shanti]

15. and

i know a lot of people now who are perpetual students, living on student loans and grants. with the economy the way it is, they can't find jobs, so school is the only option. they aren't even thinking of the future payoff :( it's very sad...

[grace0418]

31. The School of the Art Institute of Chicago could end up costing you that for

a bachelor's degree. One reason I didn't go there.

[Enrique]

5. that's quite a picture at the NYT website

aside from that, I can't really relate to these people. They're operating at a different financial level than me or anyone I know.

[Toucano]

44. The picture is of a different couple referenced later in the story.

Just in case you didn't know.

[SoCalDem]

6. Debt ruins MANY marriages, so why START a marriage

with severe debt?

This is one thing that many young people do not think about.. Too many young people take a Gone With the Wind approach to debt, but the people you owe NEVER forget:(

This is what is so wrong with our current manifestation of "higher education".. It's a gamble that often does not produce a "win" for the 18-26 yr olds who are throwing borrowed money into their future hopes.:(

As painful as it is for this young would-be bride, it's better than a crushing divorce 4 years from now...with a kid involved:(

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

46. I agree completely

In my professional life I have poured over the financial ruins of countless lives, virtually always culminating in divorce. Marrying somebody who will inevitably be a tremendously disproportionate burden on the household is setting yourselves up to fail.

[lpbk2713]

7. I hope she finds a fantastic job.

... he finds out about it.

... he wants to get back together.

... she tells him to fugoff.

[NeedleCast]

17. Wait, so he's a bad person for not wanting to marry into a shitstorm of debt?

[JVS]

39. I hope he finds a new girlfriend with "vast tracts of land!"

[myrna minx]

68. "He's going to tell...he's going to tell"

:rofl:

[madinmaryland]

8. Honestly the guy was right to call it off when he did. No harm no foul.

I'm sorry, but as I would not want to take on a spouse with a $170,000 debt. That is the same as a mortgage.

He was right to call it off, before they went any further.

Why would her parents allow her to accumulate that large of a debt without warning her of the consequences. She could have gone to a local state university (she lives in the SF metro area) gotten an equivalent degree for probably a tenth the cost, and lived at home. It pisses me off that her parents let her fall into that deep of a debt.

[shanti]

18. why blame her parents?

she's an adult and made her own financial decisions. not all parents can help out financially. they probably warned her, but she didn't listen.

[madinmaryland]

27. I took out a student loan when I was in college also.

It was a small amount, and it was because my father wanted me to use the loan to establish my credit. As I recall, I think my parents had to co-sign the loan. Mine was for $2500. Would a bank loan $170K to an 18 year old without some sort of parental backing? Uhh. Nevermind.

[Regret My New Name]

54. She's 31 now and it sounds like she went to college

in her mid to late twenties. Not sure if you could blame her parents for that. :/

[shanti]

69. right

and after age 24, the parents' income isn't even taken into account. blaming this on her parents is just nuts.

[Ruby the Liberal]

9. This is more about character than debt, IMO.

What kind of responsible adult spends $170k plus on a BS degree in Photography? Photography? Really? Sorry, but while I can understand art education, there is one element that you can't teach and that is the art itself. I am sure that at one point she thought she might be the next Ansel Adams, but that is a completely irresponsible debt load to take on - especially given that it isn't even her main source of income.

[Mimosa]

36. ITA!

Unless one wants to teach photography a degree is totally unnecessary to work in the field. Something's fishy here.



*edited for spelling*

[Merlot]

42. Interest on 100K adds up really quickly

She probably took out 100k in loans, which is why she told ex that she owed 100K in debt.

Understandable she didn't want to know how much the interest was piling on.

100k is still to much.

[tkmorris]

11. Not many romantics here I suppose

I am looking across our living room at my wife right now and the idea that $170,000 in debt, or indeed any amount, could possibly make me want to not be with her is just plain ludicrous. Does no one actually fall in love anymore? Are all marriages just of convenience, people merely getting hitched because their life plan calls for having children at that stage?

I am either incredibly fortunate or just plain old-fashioned. Perhaps both.

[CBR]

12. I am with you. nt

[teenagebambam]

16. I'm with you.

My partner and I have combined student loan debt of about 200K. We will likely not pay it off before one or both of us dies.

And we ARE married, fat lot of good that it does us here (Florida).

[NeedleCast]

19. Well, I think you're comparing apples and oragnes

That's easy to say when your wife doesn't have 170,000 dollars in debt. It would be hard for me to love someone who was that fiscally irresponsible. Did you know and trust your wife's abiltiy to spend wisely when you married her? If she had shown signs of a high level of materialism and not having the money to pay for it, would you still have been in love with her?

[shanti]

20. two divorces

will kill the romance :eyes: money problems are the biggest marriage-killers.

[Barack_America]

22. What's romantic about giving up your dreams of home and family....

...because of your partner's financial irresponsibility?

[Statistical]

25. Easy to say when a) your wife doesn't have debt and b) looking in hindsight the relationship worked

$170K in principle likely means $300K to $400K in total payment. If in the next 30 years they face unemployment a couple times the penalties can easily add $100K in compounded cost and another decade to repayment.

Being rich don't make you happy but being poor doesn't either. Being $170K in the whole is worse than poor. At least being poor you are starting at $0.

[Ruby the Liberal]

28. Easy to say when you haven't had financial issues come between you

I had a roommate in college that used the ATM to see how much she could spend ('current balance'). This was back in the 80's when those balances were days behind at times due to check processing times.

She spent hundreds of dollars every month in overdraft and bounced check fees and just took out more and more debt to pay them off.

I tried and tried to talk with her about creating a budget and living within her means. It all landed on deaf ears.

If I were a man with a sense of responsibility, I wouldn't have married the ex-roommate on a bet.

You are fortunate to have found a soul mate with the same priorities and sense of responsibility that you have. Regardless of whether a person is the most or least responsible in matters, they need to stick with their own as mixing that up will be a nightmare over time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

40. I don't think there's anything especially old-fashioned...

... about a $170,000 bachelors degree in a financially useless discipline.

It's not particularly romantic to consider that your wife might be looking back at you thinking that your main value to the marriage is someone to pay off her debts, either.

[pipi_k]

64. Sounds pretty close to what happened

to Mr Pip and one of his ex wives.

She was living on SS disability and getting her medical through Mass Health, which she didn't like. She kept pressuring him to marry her and put her name on the deed to his house that he had owned for like 20 years. Every chance she got, she would badger him to add her name to the deed, something he refused to do just because she DID badger him.

As it turned out, he discovered on their honeymoon that she had lied about a whole bunch of things (she left incriminating paperwork lying around) and she really only wanted his health insurance (and a share in the house that she never contributed a cent to).


The marriage lasted all of six months. In the divorce settlement, she wanted him to pay for the health insurance, claiming that one of her doctors did NOT accept Mass Health and he was vital to her care. He did, but when we got married he couldn't have both of us on the policy, so he dropped her, and that's when she brought a suit against him.

A little research uncovered the fact that her doctor did, indeed, accept Mass Health, and her suit was thrown out by the judge, who was much disgusted that she lied, and her lawyer (a friend of hers) wasn't too happy either to find out she had also lied to him and made him look like an ass.

Oh, and it's not like she was exactly living in poverty, either. She got disability on account of her back, but she was still doing hairdressing jobs on the side without telling the SSA.

A real friggen prize, that one...

[d_r]

58. me too

[pipi_k]

59. Romance in marriage is basically

bullshit.

Because where "romance" and being "in love" exist, it's always possible for them to disappear. If there's nothing beyond that, not even friendship, then the marriage isn't going to last...or, if it does, it's going to be miserable. People "fall out of love" and then run around looking for someone else to be "in love" with.

I guess some people are willing to overlook something that could affect not only themselves, but also any children they might have.

Money is up in the top five reasons for arguments in marriage. And that's probably even without starting off with massive debt.

Why on earth would a couple want to start off that way? Why on earth would they want to go ahead and have children (as many of them do) and then, very stupidly, subject the kids to a whole lot of arguments revolving around money? People don't use their heads, and it's usually the kids who end up paying the price for the selfishness and stupidity of their parents.

OK, so if you took vows and promised whatever gets promised in your vows, then yes...you try to work things out.

But don't even think about getting married to someone who isn't honest about something like that, and I don't care what kind of crap she wants to throw around about how she really didn't like to him, she lied to herself. That's bullshit.

[shanti]

13. smart guy

that is a LOT of debt!

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Her first marriage will end in divorce anyway.

You can't establish a happy household with that kind of debt and no valuable asset to show for it.

[EFerrari]

48. There's nothing harder on a marriage than financial stress except maybe physical abuse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Well it was not meant to happen

When we married there was debt that hubby had. It was taken care off... and that was that...

We used wedding gifts for that. In an ideal world I would have taken all that and invested it, but life is life. These days we save... mostly I manage all that.

[Mumble]

23. She needs to find someone in debt for $170,000

and the two of them can live happily ever after in debt for their entire lives together.

The guy who dumped her is a smart cookie.

[Statistical]

24. That kind of debt can profoundly affect finances for a lifetime.

$170K in debt and she is making minimum payments likely over 30 years with at least a portion being private loans at a higher rate...
ouch. You are talking about $300K - $400K in total repayment.

That will significantly affect what they can do (and more importantly can't do).

[Gold Metal Flake]

26. USA USA USA!

How much student loan debt does the average student carry in Norway?

[tridim]

32. I dumped a girl because all she could talk about was money.

It drove me crazy.

Why can't these people just live together and not get married? Problem solved.

[Canuckistanian]

33. This guy sounds like a winner - he's probably a Republican

A walking personification of the saying "He knows the cost of everything, but the value of nothing."

[wickerwoman]

50. That's probably a bit unfair.

What you're looking at here is competing values. You can have a $170,000 BA in photography OR you can pay off your house before you retire OR you can have several children. Most people in the current economy will never have more than one of those things.

If he places value on retiring at a reasonable age or having a few kids above ruinous debt for a degree that will never translate into a high paying job, I wouldn't say that means he knows the "value of nothing".

I wouldn't marry someone with $170,000 worth of debt. Live together, sure. Have kids, maybe. But make myself responsible for thousands of dollars in monthly payments on someone else's degree? No way in hell unless that degree led almost directly into a six figure salary.

[ecstatic]

34. If she's paying on time, what's the problem?

it could indicate a lack of maturity in her youth (170k for photography?? wtf??), but as long as she learned her lesson and will take care of her own bills, it should be fine. :shrug:

[wickerwoman]

51. She's making minimum payments

which are less than the interest, so the debt is actually getting larger even if she is making payments on time.

[mike r]

35. Til Debt Do Us Part

Forget the roses, bring your balance sheet.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. Couldn't there be some sort of prenuptual they could sign?

[taught_me_patience]

38. This guy made a smart move but is a douche bag

But she did disclose it was "over 100k" when they were dating and he was acceptable with that. This is a hopeless financial case that will haunt this woman for many years.

[Withywindle]

43. This happened to me 10 years ago.

We'd lived together six years. He knew I had debt. He dumped me. (He came from family money; I didn't; on some level he managed to convince himself I was a golddigger although I never asked and was really not into his family's lifestyle.)

The loan is paid off by now, thankfully. At the time, I was devastated because I thought he was the love of my life. Obviously, I know better now. Good riddance.

[Toucano]

45. Buried the lead:

"To Europeans, who often pay little or nothing toward their university studies, the idea of going deeply into debt to get educated is, well, foreign."

Why does "the greatest" nation in the world charge people a small fortune to simply get an education?

[ipaint]

55. So no matter how highly educated you become, the majority of people

will still remain wage slaves. This permanent high unemployment everyone seems to be in the process of accepting as the new norm will give that goal a huge boost.

[DonCoquixote]

52. Sigh

Admittedly, I only ran up 20k in debt to get a Master's degree, but that is because I was in a public university in Florida, before Charlie Crist let the two football schools run up tuition.

Still, there is one thing I notice here in DU, and that it, as of late, there is a rather ugly trend against people getting educated. Yes, some education has little economic value, but if we are just going to value economic things, what keeps us from becoming the Tea party? Why Demonize people because they do seek a dream?

[Chicago dyke]

71. right there with you, pal.

i've got student debt, but that debt and the education i received for it are two totally separate things in my mind. it's depressing to me that people are so stressed about money these days, that threads like this are common. i grok why it is people are wary of debt. but like someone pointed out, in this economy, it's simply a matter of time before most people are forced into some kind of financial crisis. if you've got a job, health care costs can break you unexpectedly. if you've got a house, you could lose your job and ruin your credit. etc. it's horrible that people are so quick to judge and blame this woman for believing in a system i'm sure she was told would lead to benefits for her. i work in college admissions and i'll tell you we can be a sweet talking bunch when we want to be.

the anger should go to an educational system and govt policy that saddles students with debt in the first place. here are two little discussed truths: it doesn't actually cost that much more today to educate students than it did 50 years ago. sure, there are lots of fancy and expensive toys we can buy for students, but education itself happens in the mind, and can be done, well, on the cheap if necessary. anyway, the real reason tuition has skyrocketed at most places, in addition to decades of declining state and federal budgets for education, has to do with the take over of most university administrations. bean counters and Magical Thinking types who have created a culture of endowment insanity, and often run afoul in the market with that money. if you know what TARP is really all about, it's a lot like that. Students are being asked to make up for schools' mismanagement of fake money/value, so that a few people don't have to admit their precious economic theories are wrong. a econ prof in the UC system wrote a paper about this, to give to protesting UC students as ammo in their fight against yet another tuition hike. a handful of people, along with their buddies the neoliberal politicians who get academic cover for their bullshit in return, have destroyed one of the things that made this country great. but most people are being raised in a climate so focused on money, they don't even stop to think about what education used to mean.

i would not have advised this woman, had she been a client of mine, to pursue that degree at that price, in this job market. it's true we can't all always go to our dream school. still, it's not her fault tuition is at an all time high, and without knowing her living situation while a student, it's hard to judge how much of that original 100K went to really high rents and food costs. a lot of university towns are pricey. it was very difficult for me to adjust to a higher priced housing market that went with going to my grad school. i had no choice but to increase the amount of loan money i took out if if was going to be anywhere near campus and eat food.

this is something i'm seeing a lot at liberal blogs and i don't like it. we're supposed to be liberals, blaming the victim is pretty crappy and we shouldn't do it. there are a lot of people out there with credit problems. that doesn't always make them immoral or stupid people.

[Obamanaut]

53. There is one line excerpted in the OP that is interesting to me -

"...After all, it will profoundly affect every financial decision, from buying a home to how many children to have...."

The ability, or lack of, to afford children doesn't seem to enter into the decision of having them at all for many/most people. It is more of "I want three kids, so I will have three kids."

This is why some kids are malnourished and poorly clothed. People make imprudent decisions regarding family size, and the kids suffer because of it.

[pipi_k]

65. Oh lord....too true!!!

People have kids hoping to "fix" a crappy marriage.

People have kids while knowing they can't even afford the basics for themselves.


And these are the people who can't see that having children is a responsibility...not a "right".

[USArmyParatrooper]

56. She can easily wipe a big chunk of that away

http://www.goarmy.com/content/goarmy/benefits/education-benefits/money-for-college.html

:patriot:

I believe they'll pay off up to $65,000 of it.

[hunter]

72. That's probably how the USA will find its very own Hugo Chavez.

Some unemployed poli-sci or philosophy major will join the army simply to pay off their student loans... Next thing you know we'll have a populist/socialist U.S. Army General elected President.

[USArmyParatrooper]

73. LOL Actually a good army buddy of mine has a bachelor degree in political science

No worries about your scenario though. Student Loan Repayment is not available to officers.

[Lady President]

60. She's Lucky

For better or worse, my school loans are part of who I am. I took about $50K in undergrad and law school loans. Unfortunately, I went into default after a period of unemployment and the interest accumulated. Quite frankly, I don't even know what I still owe-- the money comes out of my account every month.

I live within my means, have a little bit of discretionary income, and own a house. If someone wouldn't want to be with me because the sizable amount that I pay every month could go to vacations or nicer cars, then I will be happy to remain single.

If this guy couldn't accept her debt, then she's better off without him. I wonder what will happen someday down the road when he loses his job or has a major health crisis. I assume that he'll be completely understanding if the new woman in his life leaves him over it. (sure)

[northernlights]

66. apples and oranges

I suppose this woman's lack of financial planning skills are not her fault. But it's one thing to start out healthy and get hit by a car or disease. It's another thing to start off with a 2-pack a day habit...and shortly before the contract is signed mention your diagnosis of lung cancer.

She's dug herself into a very deep hole. Since she apparently lacks a plan beyond avoidance and wasn't exactly climbing her way out of the hole, I don't blame the guy in the least for walking away. :shrug:

[pipi_k]

67. I think there are two points to be made, though...

Number one, the debt itself. They were engaged...not married. He never made a vow of "for better or worse", so he's under no obligation to accept her apparent inability to handle money.


Number two is the fact that she didn't even know exactly how much the debt was. That, in itself, is bothersome. Ostrich with its head in the sand thinking...well, if I don't pay attention to it, maybe it will go away.

I used to be like that myself.

Now I know exactly what I owe, and to whom, because I keep track of it all.

I write down my credit and debit card purchases every month. I have no loans except the co-mortgage with hubby.

People who don't keep track of their finances are scary, and that is something I know for a fact.

IMO, HE is the lucky one for finding out before the marriage that she refuses to pay attention to exactly what she owes. It's not just her future she would be screwing with, it would be his, and any children they had, as well.

[Stevenmarc]

61. OK there's a bit of irony that someone named Eastman runs up a huge debt on photography

I guess she's no relation to George

[aikoaiko]

62. breaking off after finding out the fiancee made and maybe hid very bad life decisions is reasonable

Past behavior --> Future behavior

[a la izquierda]

63. Whoa, $170K for a BA?

I'm about $90K in for three degrees. My husband knows. He also knows I will make triple what he makes when I graduate.

[hunter]

70. Student Loans may spark off the next Revolution.

Smart people living as wage slaves get restless.

The U.S.A. needs to find some way to bury this debt in an equitable way.

The banks we bailed out were far more "irresponsible" than students who were told their educations would lead to better higher paying jobs.