On men and women and GETTING ALONG.

[Withywindle]

A post I put up on a locked thread. I'm sorry it was locked, although I understand why. I don't mean to call anyone out. I just want folks to address the substance of this:

~~

You know what's REALLY creepy? People who don't have any real friends of the opposite gender. And by "friends" I mean FRIENDS.

People who've helped you get home when you were too drunk to do so yourself, or vice versa--with no sexual ulterior motive.

People who have known you for ten years or more, seen you at your best and worst, and are still around because they enjoy your company, and vice versa--with no sexual ulterior motive.

People you work with, whose side you tend to take in workplace disputes for no better reason than you've had enough awesome conversations to feel like mental kindred spirits--with no sexual ulterior motive.

People who might call you up for a ride when they're stranded, and you won't hesitate for an instant because you remember that time they went with you to the emergency vet with your sick pet and comforted you, for example--with no sexual ulterior motive.

People who will go with you to your dad's funeral because you stood up for their wedding (and honestly, no one but regressives has cared about the "boys side" and "girls side" for 20 years at least)--with no sexual ulterior motive.

Anytime anyone puts up a post like this that acts like Men and Women are these monolithic groups that are totally alien to each other and can never have an honest conversation--well, what it reminds me of most are those morons who refer to all dogs as "he" and all cats as "she."

~~

This cartoon rings So FUCKING TRUE to me: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9062677&mesg_id=9062677

and the "discussion" afterwards so fucking offensive and insulting. Why yes, this happens to me all the goddamn time, every day. Just this morning on the Chicago subways I had some guy squeeze my right asscheek when the Blue Line was nuts to butts and he could get away with it. Within the last month alone, I've been seized and kissed by one guy, and had my arm grabbed by another. No, I'm not young or particularly hot, but it still goes on all the damn time.

When I'm among my FRIENDS (and almost all my partners throughtout my life have come out of the pool of friends, or at least friends-of-friends), I'm looking for people who respect me enough to understand that my word has meaning, and my view of the world is not something to be explained away by a "superior being," and that when I describe how my day was hard, I value those who LISTEN, not the ones who tell me that I'm overreacting or delusional.

Hell, in that cartoon, yeah, that catcalling guys are scum, but it's to be expected--kind of like the smell of urine in the city when it's hot or getting caught in a downpour once in a while. The woman's partner who dismisses her pain after she's gone through a lot of verbal assault all day is the REAL villain of the piece, IMO.

[Roon]

1. I love all my female friends

I love being mothered by them. :-)

[Withywindle]

2. I have the maternal instinct of a Brillo pad.

I love my gay male friends. They can always tell me when I'm better off buying a $30 vibrator than letting that guy in question buy me $30 of drinks. :D

[Roon]

32. LOL too funny

This lesbian couple I know is made up of my former foster daughter and her lover who is the mother of three. But they took good care of me my first few years of being single after a long relationship and I will never forget about it. They even spent the 45.00 and got me a kitten from the shelter!

I don't see them much anymore,maybe 2-3 times a year,but it's nice to know I can go over to their place anytime and get a nice vegetarian meal and a comfy bed.

[Withywindle]

45. Family comes first, doesn't it?

Always. $45 adoption fee? Cheap! I paid $70 for my girl. But that included shots and spaying and microchip and, hell, it's a big city, lots of animals in need of help, lots of money required to feed 'em all. What I paid can never compare to the value of a friend who is always with you in the dead of the night, who will snuggle with you no questions asked, and never ever judges, and will sometimes stick her cold wet nose in your ear when you're typing something really painful and angry about rape on a message board. :D


(I don't know your family situation at all but from what I know of families of choice, no qualifiers here: congrats to you and your daughter and your daughter-in-law and your grandchildren. I wish you all many more years of fellowship and good food.)

[Forkboy]

3. I find that not treating women like my personal fuck toy works pretty well.

They actually seem to appreciate being treated like a fellow human.

Who would have guessed?

[Withywindle]

5. That's square one, agreed.

I know it's shocking, but we ARE. Seven billion people in the world - are they all the same in what they want out of life? You'd think no one would be dumb enough to think so, but...that Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus bullshit has inflicted hideous damage on the rational thought processes of at least two generations.

[seabeyond]

8. thank you forkboy. and i think it is key too. many men have lost site of what works well

and it is really simple. i got so down. i was on another board with a subject pertaining to this and so many of the men are clueless on this. it really seems the last decade this simple concept is no more, for so many.

[Odin2005]

50. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

:applause:

[daleanime]

4. You know what's really, really creepy?

How many of us do without having a 'friend' of that caliber regardless of gender.




Shoot, for sad fun ask some one to name their neighbors.

[Withywindle]

6. I am sorry.

I didn't mean to be insensitive on that front. :(

[daleanime]

11. Huh?

No problem, just remember that the changes in our social structure are disconnecting all of us. This leave people desperate for even the illusion of belonging. And don't doubt that certain circles make use of that.

[Withywindle]

12. No, all I mean is that I do have friends like that, of both genders.

That's my own personal experience. I don't mean to be hurtful to people who don't because I know circumstances vary. That's all. And I am genuinely sorry to those who don't and want to make amends to anyone I inadvertently hurt.

God, our culture is SO FUCKED UP.

[daleanime]

13. That I think we all can agree on....

now, what can we do to fix it?

[Withywindle]

16. if you're a man, it's pretty simple: LISTEN to what your female friends are saying

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9062677&mesg_id=9062677

The cartoon in the OP is VERY realistic. Honestly. This is pretty much what happens to me every day. (again, I'm 41, I'm not all that hot--but am single and I'm sick of this crap when I'm just trying to get to and from work--it's especially bad with the guys who follow me from the bus stop when I'm going home at 10, and I'm wondering if they're going to try to push into my foyer...)

Relations between women and men will never be equal until this kind of shit stops. So what are you saying to your male friends about the problem?

Only men can stop it, and that will only happen when men Really truly listen to what their female friends have to say, and then tell their male acquaintances and co-workers that harassment isn't cool.

Is it really THAT difficult, to stand up to other men?

Jesus fuck, I've been in the feminist movement for 25 years and STILL get into ideological arguments with other feminist women all the time. Grow some HUEVOS*, OK?


*Huevos = literally "eggs" in Spanish but also colloquially means "balls." Genderwise as a slang for chutzpah, I couldn't hope for better.

[daleanime]

26. There are times I really do.....

despair. You have no idea who I am or how I conduct my self,but the only way to improve is to submit my self to the judgment of women.

I remember waiting in the hallway for evening class and having to deal with campus security. Woman had reported strange man in building, just me waiting for class to start.

I remember walking to the store to pick up supplies. Two girls walking ahead of me begin to look over their shoulders, to walk a little faster. So I have to stop and stand still because my 'presence' is uncomfortable for them.

I've been mistreated by women because I was interested, because I wasn't interested, I can't think of single time in my life when a women turned me down honestly(sure, right, I understand, Friday nights are when you wash your hair). I've been treated like a dangerous animal, like a useful pawn, more then once I've been an accessory. In short I feel no better about the judgment of women then I do the judgment of men.

I would suggest that you work on cleaning the other side of the house, too many women 'reward' bad behavior. Because it's powerful, exciting, etc... As long as enough women go for 'bad' boys nothing will change. In fact it could get worst. Should have seen the idiot my niece has hanging around, hopefully she know better next time. But I wouldn't bet on it.

People see what they expect to see, yes that applies to me as well.

[Withywindle]

30. Oh, the judgment of women, SO onorus.

Look, you have no constitutional right to pussy. You are not being somehow "cheated" if you've never managed to establish a sexual relationship. You have no right to anyone.

I'm a woman, and I have been rejected by men I wanted so many times you can't imagine (news flash, women are people just like you--and will pursue the individuals they find physically attractive.)

You have to ask yourself, what do YOU have to offer? And it's only meaningful if it's what your crush wants.

[daleanime]

43. Huh?

My rules for dating, when I did.

1-Try to get to know her first. If you can't get to know her before asking her out, leave her alone, your chasing a illusion.

2-Ask her out once! If the answer is anything other then yes or a counter offer (Wednesday lunch instead of Tuesday coffee) it's a no.

3-If your not interested in me, I'm not interested in you. When a lady tells me to leave, I leave.


'New flash', hardly, I've been part of too many conversations to think of them as alien.

'No constitutional right', check. Not 'cheated', check. Rejection problems universal, check.

"What do I have to offer?" Known the answer to that most of my life.


Have a good life.

[Withywindle]

47. I'm sorry. I was in angry mode at the time, and the shit I was responding to wasn't REALLY you.

I do apologize, sincerely.

[eridani]

34. My husband gets hurt feelings when women cross the street to avoid him

Doesn't happen in crowds--just when there aren't many people around. I keep trying to tell him not to take is personally--they are just trying to stay alive and in one piece.

[daleanime]

41. Oh, I understand entirely...

but still depressing, but thanks.

[Withywindle]

46. He really shouldn't take it personally.

Really, he shouldn't. I understand why it bugs him - but I also think it's not fair to expect women to risk potential catastrophic consequences just to spare a stranger's feelings. (And women are TAUGHT to do just that!)

Here's a weird thing. I work really hard to be anti-racist, so it worries me when black men talk about concrete examples of racism in terms of seeing white women cross the street at night.

But when I'm walking down the street at night in Chicago, I instinctively, quickly, assess all potential upcoming strangers for the "possible threat vibe." Gender is actually much easier to ascertain at a distance at night than race--body size and shape and clothes, etc.

I tend to wear a more defensive posture for a male body type (regardless of race) than for a female one (regardless of race). I guarantee my hackles rise higher for a man of any race than a woman of any race.

[eridani]

54. After the Central Park jogger rape, I heard a story of one woman who reported an

--attempted rape. The police asked her if the attacker looked Black or Hispanic. That astonished her, and she said "I only had time to notice what sex he was."

Racism? Bullshit. We avoid white men too.

[seabeyond]

9. but i wave, lol, everytime they drive by and i am sittin on porch. i hear ya. busy lives. nt

[seabeyond]

7. good post. in the past the few men that behaved like this were creeps. today, we hear men

tell us on a regular basis, this is who they are. suck it up. deal with it. commercials promoting it and stating, ... men arent going to change. it is becoming more conditioned and implanted that this is how all men must show the world their masculinity at all times.

somewhere along the way the last decade all women became mens whores and the men have ownership on them. stranger on the street. peer at school or work. some mom dropping kid off at school. for men to think it is cool to state milf... to another person, and not see it as offensive is really fucked up.

you hear it all the time when men talk about women on du.

then they say liten up, puritan nation, repressed sexuality.

obsessive with sex. it is reminding me a lot of the japanese with their robots and pillows and virtual fantasy parks. we arent there, but we are working to it.

the thing, it really isnt going to benefit men. as young girls are raised to see the innate disrespect given to them, they will react. they will change to accomodate. and it isnt going to be pretty.

[Withywindle]

10. I do understand that male sexual hormones are powerful.

There's nothing wrong with that. They can enjoy that sensation in the privacy of their own heads and dicks as much as they like.

(I have a high sex drive too. I enjoy my fantasies, and that particular favorite pair of jeans with the seam in just the right place. I'm honestly thinking about sex pretty much all the time--but it's about sex in my elaborate fantasy world, and that doesn't mean that some random dude on the bus fits into that. I'm an introvert. I'm a private person.)

No one is telling men that their FANTASIES are wrong, or at least I'm not. Fantasies are excellent and fun and healthy--as long as you keep your goddamn mouth shut and refrain from imposing your fantasies on random strangers.

No one is saying it's wrong to see an attractive person on the street and THINK "I'd like to bang that like a screen door in a hurricane."

The wrong thing to do is to SAY it. That is the point at which you're turning a passerby into an object, because that is the point where you demand that that person actually hear your fucked-up fantasy and react to it--as opposed to going about his/her business without even noticing you.

[seabeyond]

15. ya. agree. nt

[comtec]

39. .

.

[proteus_lives]

14. I have never understood it.

My best friend is a woman. We've been BFFs for years, through my own relationships and her marriage.

And we still get the whole, "So when are you guys gonna hook-up?" :eyes: Some folk (both men and women) can't understand that you can have emotional closeness with a non-related person of the opposite gender.

I've never understood catcalling behavior either. Yes, I see women all the time on the street that I feel sexually attracted to but I would never voice such an opinion to a complete stranger. It's about the rudest thing I can think of. Teach your sons manners and respect.

[Withywindle]

18. People often ask when my 25-year-long BFF and I are going to get married.

The answer is, "Never." He's gay, and he's looking for a male spouse. We're both nerds who are big into privacy. (FYI, we've had this conversation several times, and we've already agreed we'd be more than willing to do a 'green card marriage' if either of us had significant citizenship advantages to give to the other.)

[proteus_lives]

21. Want to hear a funny fact?

I performed my BFF's wedding ceremony. Went online and became a minister and sealed the deal for them.

People just don't get that I don't have any sexual feelings for her. Yes, she's pretty but the root is she's a female version of me and I'm a male version of her.

I like woman who aren't like me. And frankly thought of sexing up my BFF is way too close to incest for my tastes.

"We're both nerds who are big into privacy."

Ditto on that. We went to a comic book convention two weekends ago. Very fun.

[Withywindle]

22. Awesome.

Seriously. we need more of this. :thumbsup:

[Odin2005]

51. "And frankly thought of sexing up my BFF is way too close to incest for my tastes." LOL!!!

Ain't that the truth! :rofl:

[pinboy3niner]

17. Yes, that cartoon was AWESOME

Frankly, I considered alerting your post as a continuation of an argument from another thread. I didn't, because I think your OP is more than that.

I could do a lot of typing to try to respond to all of your points, but I don't really need to do that.

Your most important point is about LISTENING (something that was in short evidence in the cartoon thread).

My only disagreement is that I didn't see the partner in the cartoon as a villain. He's more like an Everyman, often ignorant and obtuse and not 'getting it' when it comes to the experience of women.

[Withywindle]

19. Thanks for not alerting.

I know the past threads got locked for reasons of...well, some people flaming out. Which is a good reason to lock, because that thread was painful.

Listening really is my point. And my issue about seeing the woman's partner as the "villain" was not that he was an IRREDEEMABLE DOCTOR EVIL BAD GUY so much as he represented all the men in the world who downplay women's traumas.

Yes, most men are ignorant and obtuse when it comes to what women go through every day. No woman denies this.

The defining question is, what does this man say when the women he loves finally opens up and describes it? (Remember, we are conditioned not to talk at all. Even describing the slurs and grabs of the day goes against the grain. We are trained to file it away and keep on.)

[pinboy3niner]

24. Kinda hard to alert on such a reasonable and rational post. :)

I saw the guy in the cartoon as an Everyman (or an Everyperson) who has difficulty understanding and appreciating an experience that is not his (or her) own. That seems to me a very natural response in this context and many others ('battered woman syndrome' and PTSD, for starters).

That doesn't make him a 'bad guy,' just someone who could benefit from REALLY listening to, and trying to understand the experience of, someone who has had a different experience from his own.

[Withywindle]

25. Thanks again, for reading it with an open mind.

The experience of the woman in the cartoon is really real. It happens all the time. Even if you're homely, even if you're just going about the business of grocery shopping and waiting for the bus, there is ALWAYS some guy who'll shout out something like, "SUCK MY DICK."

Men who genuinely mean well and genuinely love their female partners and friends are often schocked and disbelieving when we say this happens every day.

Because they weren't there to see it, they don't believe it's really daily and normal.

Well, DUH the men who do this always aim it at women who are alone.

[pinboy3niner]

27. And it's time for men who are partners or fathers to 'get it' and be outraged

When we males are in a group of other men, we have the responsibility to call it out when it happens, rather than giving our silent, tacit approval.

All the more so with younger men, who need to be corrected as early as possible. The Right loves to demonize such things as 'PC,' but it's really just a matter of educating the younger generations.

The day this becomes 'PC' is a day I'll be happy to join others in celebration.

[Withywindle]

28. I hear you and respect what you're saying

But why does it have to be about being partners and fathers?

Why can't it be about understanding that NO woman or girl deserves verbal abuse and objectification and assault, even if she's not lucky enough to have a male relative who loves her?

Empathy isn't really about thinking "what if this was my daughter or sister or wife". Empathy is thinking, "what if I had been born with a vagina, and grew tits at 12, how would my life be different?"

[pinboy3niner]

31. That's an excellent point

It SHOULDN'T have to depend on partners and fathers, it should be all of us.

It was my mistake to identify partners and fathers, thinking they might be the most disposed to understand. I should have known better, as I don't have a daughter and I'm not currently in a long-term relationship.

Thanks for the correction.

Empathy is thinking, "How should I--or anyone--deserve to be treated?

[Withywindle]

48. Exactly.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with tapping into protective family/friend-type instincts. Believe me, I wish the assholes who denigrate and threaten women were even capable of understanding that every woman they belittle is someone's daughter or sister or niece or cousin or wife or mother or friend--we all are, after all, women don't live in a vacuum.

but I think the whole issue of identification and real empathy is pretty complicated.

Girls who liked to read as children are pretty capable of identifying with both male and female protagonists in books--they have to learn how to, if they like adventure stories. Nothing wrong with that. I'm glad I have that background, honestly.

But there is a whole strain of thought that says that boys will NOT be willing to identify with female characters. This is why Hollywood action movies with female protagonists are so few and far between. (Ellen Ripley? Lara Croft? Sarah Connor? Clarice Starling? Awesome--and memorable for their rarity.) This is why Joanne Kathleen Rowling's publishers told her she'd have to go by her initials for her kids' books, even though her protagonist--Harry Potter--was male; apparently publishers believe boys won't read books by women, if they read at all.

It's very important to me to push the very simple fact that women and girls are full-fledged human beings, who have inner lives and fantasies and internal arguments and personal tastes and flaws and histories and preoccupations, the combinations of which are unique to them individually, and think of themselves as "I" and see the world through the eyes in their heads. When I look down on my right hand, I look at it from someone whose point of view is in her skull. Just like men.

You'd think this would be super-obvious, but to a lot of people, it apparently isn't. Some people still seem to think that all 3-4 billion women in the world respond to some kind of universal pickup formula (AND IF THEY DON'T THEY SHOULD!).

[seabeyond]

33. so so so important. this is all i ask. this is all i ask from my guys.

my hubby didnt get it. after years of pointing out, he came home the other night so excited. he got it, with friends, and said something. he was so proud of himself. ahhh. took years

but, my two sons get it. and they see their part in it, even though they do not condone the behavior. being silent isnt the answer

but then in our house, we also call out that bad behavior of female, too.

it really does bottom line to treating each others like humans first. it works for all of us in this house.

[pinboy3niner]

35. Your guys can love you, and still not get it

It's wonderful that that is not the case in your house, and that your guys 'get it.'

Your point about the bottom line nails it: treating each other (with respect) as fellow human beings. I'm not religious, myself, but I believe the scriptures exalted by the faithful say the same thing. These days, though, people like to cherry-pick the scriptures they believe, and throw out those they don't like...

[earcandle]

20. My partner and I have a performance piece in progress about the internal and connective

relationships of boy and girl.

we have agreed, when vulnerable, sit in the directors chair. 

[Withywindle]

23. But seriously, do you believe that "boy" and "girl" represent something immutable?

Because I don't.

[HEyHEY]

29. I still disagree on the cartoon, but the rest of your post I agree with

The strangest culture I've found for this is British people. The sexes are compeltely segregated when it comes to friends. My roomate and his friends go to the pub and actively discourage each other from bring wives or girlfriends. The girls go off on their own in their groups of friends. It's really weird. Back home we all mingled in one group and if someone didn't bring their SO people would be asking where they were.

I've always had a lot of female friends, indlucing numerous roomates, and prefered them to guys in many ways. I really find it hard to understand why people don't think they can be friends.

[eridani]

36. Men really can have a powerful effect on the behavior or other men

I've seen it in the swinging subculture, which DH and I experimented with in the 70s. (Eventually droppoed out because neither of us could handle the rule about not meeting people other than spouses outside of swinging--I like friendship to be a part of the deal. Also, the biphobia was hard for me to take, even though it was entirely directed at men.)

Anyway, men who are regulars in that subculture are intensely aware that if women feel unsafe in a venue, the party is instantly over. Therefore, while new women are queen for a day, new men get a borderline hostile reaction until they've established that they will adhere to the rule about not being overly persistent when women say no. If they want to be invited back, they get the idea very quickly.

And that resulted in the extremely strange sensation of feeling far safer taking all my clothes off in front of a group of strangers than I had felt when we walked the couple of blocks from the car to the front door fully clothed. Even having a man with you never totally eliminates the sense that public space is dangerous for women, at least for me.

[Withywindle]

53. Thanks for this insight - it's really fascinating.

I've been in poly relationships (which I prefer to monogamy) but have never done swinging with semi-strangers.

I HAVE been to BDSM play parties and clubs and felt totally safe because I knew that there were rules that were strictly enforced, and that people who made other people feel harassed or threatened would be summarily ejected and banned.

That is the important thing. The idea that safety concerns, especially womens', are understood and strongly respected. Given that atmosphere, anything can go, and that's SO incredibly liberating--but also very rare and hard to come by.

[eridani]

55. Poly works for me too. I prefer the ethic "Only have sex with friends"

--to "Never have sex with friends." I understand that they have that rule to protect their primary relationships emotionally, but I've never had trouble with the strict honesty required when sex and friendship involve more than one.

[MrScorpio]

37. There's a good reason why I don't hang out with "guys" nt

[retread]

38. There are a lot more than just one. n/t

[comtec]

40. on the cartoon ...

Most likely she didn't tell him the entirety of what happened.

No decent partner could hear abut that and not be enraged.

If she only said that she was cat called, with no specifics, or that she was whistled at, how is he to know worse?

The problem is communication.

But yes, the real villain is the partner who should have been supportive, not dismissive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. "Sexual ulterior motive"

I think romantic attraction and genuine friendship are NOT mutually exclusive.

and almost all my partners throughtout my life have come out of the pool of friends, or at least friends-of-friends

This suggests that those friends had a sexual ulterior motive.

[Withywindle]

52. In my last significant relationship...

...the person in question and I had been friends-of-friends acquaintances for TEN YEARS. There was no ulterior motive that I knew of, because there was no real pursuing. Just a lot of fun talk at rock shows and our friends' houses for years and years.

It was a matter of timing, really. We both had to be single and horny at the same time. I meant it to be a one-night stand....we wound up living together for six years. The point was, we knew each other at least on some level. We were good at conversations FIRST and the sexual attraction took just that long to kick in.


The point I wanted to make was that, the better you are at getting along with others (espeically of whatever gender you're attracted to) on a non-sexual basis, the better you are at relating to them romantically and sexually too. I don't think the "other species I don't know how to talk honestly to" dynamic is good for anyone.

[DemocraticPilgrim]

44. All I know is if there is one party working to make life harder for women it's the GOP...

The more power they are given the less all women have in society. Where the fact the GOP do have ladies n the party is more a cover story, the same a black people at a tea party. Genuine kind women, who love other women are the Democratic party, and the party will always be their salvation. Some may get carried along with the GOP passionate rhetoric pleading to the right emotional chords but they will inevitably be women's worst option try not ever be swayed by aesthetic cover of women's rights, because a cover is all they have. As for as guys go sure we have questionable men left and right, the main differenc only democratic men will champion every right woemn hold dear.
The glorious Senator Barbara Boxer 2010.

[Odin2005]

49. Oddly enough, most of my friends are women, not other guys.

I think it is because it is more socially acceptable for women to be "nerdy" and "geeky", and also because when I was growing up it was the girls that defended me the most from bullies. I am also a very sensitive, emotionally open person and so I do not relate to the majority of men that feel the need to repress their feelings, it feels uncomfortable to me.

Nietzsche's claim that truly platonic relations between people of the opposite sex is impossible is complete and utter BS.