As A Woman Have You Ever Been.....

[Maine-ah]

I'm posting this so that some may get a better idea as to what happens to many women on a daily basis, and yes it's due to a couple of threads running right now.

I personally fall in to 2 categories.

[uppityperson]

1. yes, yes, and yes. Can you add "other or combination" choice? thanks.

[Maine-ah]

2. done

:)

[uppityperson]

4. thanks. voted "other" should have been "all of the above"

[REP]

3. Where's the "all of the above" option

[Maine-ah]

6. done

[uppityperson]

7. it has been added

[etherealtruth]

9. I chose the "combination" choice

I guess it covers all of the above

[Brickbat]

5. I was thinking about starting this myself, but didn't want it to fall apart the way the other one

did. Also, I would have used "street harassed" because that's what the cartoon was about; to me, "sexual harassment" conjures up workplace situations where job threats are used to get sexual favors. BUT that is only my view. Thanks for starting this.

[Maine-ah]

10. the first option

should work for that particular thread :hi:

[Brickbat]

12. Yes, and that's what I voted.

[Luciferous]

8. All of the above nt.

[uppityperson]

11. I recced and it's up to zero. funny

[Maine-ah]

17. lol really I'm not surprised

thanks for the rec :hi:

[uppityperson]

19. +15 now

[Lorien]

126. Yep. There's a small army of extremely hateful misogynists on DU

fortunately they are in the minority, but they're obnoxious and a real embarrassment.

[etherealtruth]

23. what could be the possible motivation to 'unrec" something like this?

[Maine-ah]

31. meh, there are assholes everywhere.

I honestly couldn't care that they unrec a poll about sexual harassment/rape etc.... they're just going to continue to be blind to all of this anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who unrec a poll like this are active participants in sexual harassment. :hi:

[Lorien]

128. or much worse. nt

[Odin2005]

235. probably the usual misogynists.

:puke:

[uppityperson]

13. oooo, how about "none", just because perhaps some haven't

[Maine-ah]

20. done

[yewberry]

14. Two out of three.

Now I'm going to have that stupid Meatloaf song in my head.

[Gormy Cuss]

28. Thanks for the earworm...

from another two-out-of-three-er.

[blondeatlast]

15. 1 & 2 but managed to fight off the date rape==but it was the struggle of a lifetime. nt

[tabatha]

16. There is also non-sexual gender initimdation.

That is, because one is a woman, one cannot do the job that a man could.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

161. Gender discrimination could be another poll in itself.

Bet the numbers would be surprisingly high there too.

[petersjo02]

18. Nothing on the poll quite applies:

As a 14-year-old, I was propositioned by the father of the family I baby-sat for as he was taking me home one Saturday night (offered to "teach me a few tricks"). I said no and squeezed tight against the car door until we were finally in my driveway and I could jump out and run inside. That could have turned out sooooooooooo badly. I was very fortunate. The family never called me to baby-sit again. I always wondered what the husband told his wife to convince her not to call me again. I never told my parents. Edited to add my vote to the harassment column.

[Brickbat]

21. That's harassment at the very least, I'd say.

[uppityperson]

22. That is harassment. So was the young man who blocked me from passing as a pre-teen, kept grabbing my

chest. It was creepy, I was too embarrassed to tell my folks. Actually it was probably sexual assault with me since he touched me.

[SeattleGirl]

287. Some guy I went to high school with did that to me.

I was bringing something to the office for the teacher during class time, so the halls were essentially empty. I was going down the stairs, and this guy was walking up that. I moved over to let him pass, and all of a sudden, he reached out and grabbed both my breasts, then walked away. I was shocked, to say the least. I didn't tell anyone at first, but finally told one of my girlfriends. Turns out, he had done the same thing to her. We started asking around, and there were 10 of us who had the same thing happen. We went to the principal's office and reported it. Principal reported it to the police, and once he'd been found out, he confessed. Guess he wasn't so brave outside of an empty hallway or stairwell.

[chrisa]

112. OMG!

:hug:

I'm so sorry. :(

[verdalaven]

120. Almost same age....

the father I babysat for gave me jewelry for Christmas, a gift between him and me. I was so naive that I didn't understand I was being "wooed" but it never went any further - thanks to fate, or his conscious, or my complete lack of interest.....whatever, I am grateful.

When I was seventeen, I was picked up hitchhiking (I was also stupid) by an older man (about my dad's age), and he gave me a ride, but then when we reached my destination, he wouldn't let me out of his truck until I gave him my phone number. Another situation that could have ended very badly for me, but didn't. Gave him a wrong number, and afterward realized what could have happened,and felt very, very stupid and scared. Never hitched again.

[Odin2005]

237. That is sick!

[Withywindle]

131. That is harassment, and attempted statutory rape.

I am so glad you got away.

[Danascot]

189. You wonder what he told his wife so she wouldn't call?

It never occurred to you that he told her you came on to him? That's how it's done.

[otohara]

196. I Had Similar Experience

totally forgotten about it until I read your post.

Before I was 18 - 4 men whipped out their package for me to see over the years - including one time when I was a Girl-Scout. We never told our parents either.

[rasputin1952]

221. I realize this was probably quite some time ago....

but I'd encourage people in your situation to tell their parents. I am glad you escaped any serious situations, but people like that don't "quit", another may have become a victim.

[ThomCat]

231. I am So very glad that never escalated into anything more.

:(

What a horrible situation!

[lukasahero]

24. Sadly we've had these kinds of polls here before

They do nothing to dissuade the guys who want to tell us what to do and how to feel from continuing to do so.

[liberalhistorian]

42. I'm wondering when a certain poster who considers

child support to be "legal enslavement" and who thinks men shouldn't have to pay child support if a woman decides not to abort will show up with his misogynistic, play the victim bullshit.

Nah, not even he would have the guts to do so on this thread. At least, I hope not!

[joshcryer]

87. Haha, I'm one of those guys.

But I get in trouble because people don't understand that I don't agree with child support for much bigger reasons and that I'd pay it in any case.

[seabeyond]

96. ooooh. we had a discussion on this, didnt we.... vaguely remembering... nt

[joshcryer]

100. Haha

I WOULD TAKE CARE OF MY KIDS. :P

(Yes it was you and me, looong discussion.)

[seabeyond]

111. ha ha

ya, it is coming back.... you argued, but if it happened you would do.

[liberalhistorian]

155. You don't agree with having to financially support your own

child for whom you're half responsible? You think that women should be entirely responsible for providing for their children and the father should just be able to go on his merry way and live his life free from any responsibility for the child he also created? You think husbands who divorce their wives and who don't get custody shouldn't have to be financially responsible for their children but should just leave it all on the wife while they go on their merry way (sometimes providing for a girlfriend's or second wife's children before even their own-which I've seen many times)?

Tell me something-my son's father got away with paying almost nothing for years, and then less than nothing once he married and their son was born, all the while never paying for any clothes, school stuff, extras, anything, it was all on me, while his wife would scream at me about how "unfair" it was for him to have to pay ANYTHING, since they had their own son and he was more important. So, you consider that fair, then?

[Chulanowa]

180. "Fair" rarely figures into these cases

First, I have no idea about your case and it's none of my business, so don't take this personal, but very often an incompetent mother is favored for custody over a competent father, simply because of the gender. This was the case in my parents' divorce; My dad had quit drinking, was building up his contracting business, and my mother decided to ditch him because she got sick of him being preachy about her drinking habit. She was jobless, living off her retired mothers' bank account and have a severe drinking problem; she was awarded full custody of my sister and I. I love the woman of course, but I have to wonder what kind of logic went into the judge's decision there.

Second, as you can imagine from that, a fair bit of our child support went to her alcohol. We ate ramen, I learned to sew to fix my clothes, but we always had good whiskey in the house (and shitty wine, go figure.) She further screwed my dad by dragging us to Alaska; no visitation for him with a continent between us, right? This was because she got pissed that he remarried.

Over this period she hooked up with a fellow who did a fair job of providing support. But the child support checks kept rolling in.

So I consider my dad's perspective here; he cleans himself up, gets his finances in order... and then the court yanks his kids, gives them to a drunken hobo, who steals them off to Alaska, and demands he still give her money, even while she's living off another dude's largesse. He has no way to be certain his money is going to his kids rather than his ex's drinking problem. I imagine he might have some legitimate gripes about this situation.

Like I said, I don't know anything about your situation, and it's not my business. But it looks like your ex husband wants to rebuild a family. Does that mean he should owe nothing to his child with you? Not at all! But nor should he be financially barred from rebuilding. You certainly aren't barred from doing so. There's no good solutions for this situation, so the court takes the easy way out - it's the man's fault. The system is fucked, plain and simple. The default assumption is that the father is an unfit parent, and that he is "at fault" in the divorce. If he wants to challenge this assumption, it's going to cost him even more money in court and lawyer fees.

The notion of child support is great; both parents are financially responsible for their children and should be held to that responsibility. In practices however, it is very often little more than a decade plus of punitive fines for the ex-husband / father, with very limited or no parental rights. I have no difficulty imagining why other men might have some issues with this situation.

[tourivers83]

408. A lot of good points.

Good post. I know this is a little late in the discussion but why are some women attracted to the ”Bad Boys?” Hell, I was even guilty of that and when I met my partner Amanda she had somewhat of a “Bad Girl” look to her. She dressed in black a lot, she was exciting, and seemed somewhat dangerous. In reality she was none of that but I didn’t know it at the time and I fell in love with her so hard it didn’t really matter.
:hi: :loveya:

[seabeyond]

410. the other question could be, why are so many other woman not into bad boys? nt

[tourivers83]

414. Spike was a Bad Boy relationship for Buffy.

Could be they want a nice guy with a sense of humor who will treat her well. But I think women often love with a deeper passion and fall in love harder than men and their emotions tie them to bad relationships.

:think: :hi:

[seabeyond]

415. ok with spike and buffy. lol. i dont buy the women love deeper and harder....

than men.

i know i am suppose to. everyone tells me i am suppose to. society certainly pushes it.

but i dont buy it. i see it more gender neutral. in my world i am not real hip to the whole emotions thing. i know well what i feel and all, and can be passionate in conversation, but i can be alone easily. whereas my hubby is more the romantic and into the people thing. my brother needs a woman around, desperately, unfortunately he has had none that will take his shit and he is alone, and angry at all women.

i see men that are dependent on a mate
i see women dependent on a mate

and i see lesser of both groups without the "need".

i see it more as a personality. not a gender

and i see society feeding the roles which i never adhered to.

if i am giving up my alone status, can damn well bet gonna be someone he is respectful, makes me laugh and has a strong character.

whiny, clinging, moody, angry.... no thank you

[tourivers83]

416. You never know what's going to happen.

I spent almost three years after my accident in hospitals, Psychiatric hospitals, and rest homes then I was back in our local hospital for some minor follow up work. I was walking around the building on my walker when a girl visiting her father bumped into me and spilled hot chocolate on my gown. And that was Amanda.

:loveya:

[cleanhippie]

223. Wow, you sure got a lot more from his posts than I did!

You don't agree with having to financially support your own child for whom you're half responsible? You think that women should be entirely responsible for providing for their children and the father should just be able to go on his merry way and live his life free from any responsibility for the child he also created? You think husbands who divorce their wives and who don't get custody shouldn't have to be financially responsible for their children but should just leave it all on the wife while they go on their merry way (sometimes providing for a girlfriend's or second wife's children before even their own-which I've seen many times)?


Did I miss where he said all of that? Because I cannot find that at all.

[seabeyond]

227. she asked questions. specific question per his statement on that post. valid questions to what he

said.

is there an issue with that?

one can assume. or one can ask. up to the poster to respond to those questions or not

there was a thread a while ago about this subject. josh and i chatted about it. i better undertand where he is coming from because

oh, wtf.... i ASKED.

i may not totally agree with him, but i understand better.

[joshcryer]

378. Thanks seabeyond, no worries.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

377. Nah, I think that parental roles are bullshit.

I also think that "males as breadwinners" is a contrived concept that is derived from patriarchy. Basically the argument is that if women can chose whether or not to support a child, so should men be able to make that choice.

[Odin2005]

239. Don't want to pay? Keep it in your pants (or use a condom).

Sorry, I have NO sympathy for deadbeats that don;t pay child support.

[AtheistCrusader]

275. What about a deadbeat ordered to get a second job

to pay for his kids to go to a very expensive private school, because the mother, who was sleeping around, divorced him, got custody, and was living with a man for over 5 years, not getting married because it kept the child support checks coming in?

'deadbeat' my ass.

I would guess MOST of the screwed up situations involve deadbeat dads not paying, and the mom getting totally screwed, but sometimes, the shoe is well and truly on the other foot.

[Odin2005]

277. I am sure those few situations are the exception, NOT the rule.

It's like how the Pukes focus on the tiny minority of people that abuse SSDI and welfare in order to "prove" that it is bad.

[SkyDaddy7]

297. As long as you admit it is way street, I agree!

Mothers who drag ex husbands into court despite their love & dedication to their child as a means of revenge or whatever are just as much scum as dead beat Dads! And YES there are rare cases where mothers do not have custody & do not pay child support as they should...But this is very rare because courts almost never award custody to the father unless the mother is serving time. The system needs to be reformed bad!

There needs to be common sense applied especially in situations where the woman's income is the same or greater than the man's...Child support is based on the idea that a woman is a stay at home Mom & the father is the only source of income & therefore should pay +20% of his gross so that there is little change in the lifestyle the child is accustomed to. Also the antiquated idea that the father is the head of the household so any problems there are he should be able to straighten out because after all what he says the wife should obey! "Father Knows Best"...Of course this is absurd but we are only a couple of generations removed from such common thought. The courts have not caught up!

In many cases this idea simply does not apply yet the courts apply it!

Child support should be done on a case by case basis where child support is reflective of both parents income not just the father's! This should be done through a special panel not one judge. I think some states are moving to this but I am not sure.

Men should NEVER be allowed to abandon their responsibilities & leave the mother struggling to feed & shelter the child! This is sick & disgusting as my Dad did it to my Mom! This ENRAGES ME AS A MAN & A HUMAN BEING! However, it is a two way street! The mother should NEVER be allowed to use the court system as a FREE weapon to use against the father of the child anytime she wants! This is done regardless of how dedicated & loving the father is to the child. I have seen two of my best friends go through this! Every time the mother gets mad he will have to hire a lawyer ($1500-$3000 a pop) just to show he has done nothing wrong...If he goes into the court without a lawyer she AUTOMATICALLY gets what she wants. She accused him of molesting his daughter & for 8 months he could only see his daughter in "supervised" visits! He literally was at her mercy and after every accusation she made was proven false there was never any recourse! The system is broke!

Anyone regardless of sex should know the system is broke & is in bad need of reforms!

I should say I can only speak about the state of Georgia but I do know Georgia is not the only state in the nation with a broken child support system!

[Skelly]

212. I wouldn't be surprised

At this time in history, pregnancy and childbirth is one of the few arenas where women have most if not all of the control. If you think about it, isn't sexual harassment (of any degree ) about power and control? So, the line of thought, "child support being legal enslavement" should not be a surprise coming from the one who feels this loss of control. Perhaps it is because NOT having control is such a foreign concept to many men.
There used to be a phrase some parents taught their boys...."You are NEVER to hit a women". However archaic it may sound today, I think the thought behind those words carried over to other areas...ie- sexual harassment). With power comes responsibility (for everyone). Parental interjects (whether from actual parents or parent figures)play a large role in how we respond to our use of power. For every person who abuses their power, their is a child somewhere watching and learning. My question is, how do we reach them?
What DID surprise me in this poll, is the number of women who responded with "none of the above". My usual optimistic self becomes quite cynical.

[Odin2005]

242. Chivalry is dead, it seems

Seems to have started with the younger Boomers and older Gen-Xers, and now they are passing the crude crap SeaBeyond often posts about on to their kids

[seabeyond]

250. actually odin, that is a very good point. the crude crap that in the past was considered crude crap

rationalizing it to the norm of today, instead of it being recognized as crude crap, lol. i like

but yes

i have talked to my kids, and we are open about it, it is my generation. the problem is, we know better. but we teach it to our kids and they wont have had the opportunity to chose, cause they know better. it will be a new reality. and not for the good.

[Skelly]

259. It is not about a specific generation

For it has happened for generations. I do not know if it is happening more today, or just being recognized as such. Though you may be right. My own son said recently that one of the reasons he wanted children was due to him watching so many negative parental influences being foisted on today's young that he felt a responsibility to raise a child to counter that influence. "Imagine", he said, "having a complete generation raised that way" (NOT being taught to respect others and using power for personal gain).

[seabeyond]

268. in the past we had a consensus of such on appropriate behavior and was reinforced

by the majority adn outside forces that reinforced parental expectation. today, not so much. there is a lot of contradiction to what a parenting is teaching their children adn a decided effort and push from our media and societal conditionings. it really is an interesting and challenging time raising children, but can be done and is fascinating seeing all the opportunities in lessons for the higher self that was afforded in previous generations.

[lumberjack_jeff]

327. Why do you think that child support is relevant to this thread? n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. If a stranger deliberately rubbing against your back in a packed subway car is sexual assault, yes.

I was in my early 20s and so shocked by it, I never said anything about it.

If it happened today, oh boy, that guy would be sorry!

[Cherchez la Femme]

263. Frottage, Sweet Frottage!

:puke:

[Sherman A1]

26. As a male in his mid 50's

the poll does not apply. I have however, stopped the harassment of several co-workers (in their 20's & 30's) through the years.

I have found a phrase that seems to work and get the message across without actually having to accuse the one doing the harassing or turn the issue into an official complaint, thereby getting it to stop and so far seemingly changing which head the guy is using for his thought process....

[uppityperson]

27. what is that phrase?

[Maine-ah]

32. 2nd

You should share the phrase, perhaps it can help others stop the harassment of fellow co-workers/school mates etc....

[joshcryer]

33. I'm betting "Like your teeth?"

[Sherman A1]

94. It's pretty simple

You simply look at the individual and agree that the young lady is very nice, works hard and you think of them somewhat like a daughter.

These guys may very well be thinking with their *&/%'s, but they understand the word "daughter" when said to them, combined with a look over the top of one's glasses by someone who is very much old enough to be the young lady's father.

[Maine-ah]

182. love it!

thank you for posting.

[Sherman A1]

283. My pleasure and I have to say that thus far

it has worked every one of the dozen or so times I have had to use it. Sometimes it takes a little more nudging before it sinks in, but it always has up to this point.

I appreciate the female form just as much as any guy does and guys are going to look, that is the nature of things. If they look and that's it, well so be it, not much to be said or done about that.

If they add in a rude remark, thinking I will appreciate it, they are wrong. If I hear the "hey, she's hot" or "hey, she could (insert whatever phrase you want)" then, Dad mode is switched on. The young ladies in my area of responsibility at work WILL be comfortable in the workplace. I wouldn't want my daughter bothered where she works nor will I allow another man's daughter to be bothered where I have something to say about it. I will add that it helps to have just enough authority to make the potential offenders life less pleasant. I don't want them to lose their jobs (they are far too hard to come by these days) even if they are acting like a jerk at the moment and this has worked out to be enough of a middle ground that I have never had to file a formal complaint about anyone.

[seabeyond]

289. really, instead of setting men apart, the nature of things, men are going to look

how does that switch the dominance of the phrase when saying

people are going to lookat the fine form, be it male or female.

doesnt that take the dominance of male ownership away from it. but inevitably, regardless of the fact all of us look at fine forms, men set themselves apart, as the nature is greater in some way, relevant, beyond the norm.

but

i love what you are doing.

though men are not so much different from the rest of us. we just have not gone the step further, that when we look, it is preceived as sexual.....

i often think that probably men like it that way.

[Jamastiene]

320. I like your method of action fighting discrimination.

It DOES sound like it would be very effective. Thank you. :)

[lunatica]

29. All of the above

I was sexually molested when I was a child too. So when sexually or verbally assaulted in the street when I was older I felt like a piece of shit. I learned to fight back though.

I'm happy now that I'm too old. For the first time I'm enjoying my life.

[me b zola]

152. That is an interesting observation...

"I'm happy now that I'm too old. For the first time I'm enjoying my life."

The predator types usually focus their foulness on young women and girls. Women usually don't feel as if they have come into their own until their mid-thirties, early forties. Maybe a combination of the male sexual fixation of girls/young women with our own coming into our wisdom and the ability to spot and call out malicious intent & actions.

[CoffeeCat]

184. Yep, me too...

I was molested as a child. According to my therapist, children who are molested
are often victims of other sexual assaults later in life--until they understand
that their bodies are their own.

So, I had a couple of other incidents happen in my teen years.

I look forward to being older too. I get what you are saying.

And I'm so sorry about what happened to you.

[libmom74]

280. that is interesting

I always wondered why I was a "pervert" magnet, maybe it was because I was sexually molested at the age of 2. In my pre-teen years 11-12 I developed early and had adult men comeon to me (three seperate occasions), and at 15 had a bad experience hitchhiking (I know stupid but I was stuck somewhere, and the guy had a baby carseat and picture in his car so I assumed I would be safe). I was happy when I found out I was having a boy.

[raccoon]

185. ITA--that's one of the benefits of getting old.

--Men you don't even know don't tell you to "Smile."

--Men you don't even know don't tell you to "Take off your glasses."

--Men don't just look at you as a possible source of free nooky. At least, most don't.

[Maine-ah]

30. interesting that only one woman has voted none of the above.

assuming it was a woman.

look at the shit we as women have to deal with on a daily basis. I'm not saying all men or even a majority of men treat us this way, but there's certainly enough of them out there in our daily lives that we have to be on guard, and alert to our surroundings.

Hell, I deal with it daily at work.

[joshcryer]

34. What's disturbing is that 30% of respondants have been raped.

That is beyond the pale. We're supposed to be a western country, not a third world despot.

[LostinVA]

37. Date rape will account for a chunk of that response

Or at the hands of an adult when a child or teenager.

[Maine-ah]

44. I'm not surprised by it

and yes it's disturbing.

[Raschel]

213. I'm not surprised. And I think there would be more if you could check more than one category.

[seabeyond]

56. this is what we were saying josh. this is why it is so hard

when it is dismissed or not seen as much of an issue. and there is so much more in that. how many of that 30% of rapes were not reported cause the girl/woman knew nothing would happen, the accustion against victim, the wanting to just let it go, the humiliation and shame.

[joshcryer]

79. How do you know nothing will happen until you take action?

C'mon!

[Cherchez la Femme]

278. Ya know: Data. Facts.

Data such as, for just one example, fairly recently it was finally disclosed that in the city of L.A. alone thousands of rape kits for years were warehoused, stockpiled, not even tested
allowing many serial, along with 'solo' rapists to continue on their merry way, free and uninvestigated --as if nothing of any consequence at all occurred-- with law enforcement just not caring at all.
These thousands were certainly in no way deterred -- no 'biggie', it appears!

Facts such as rape within marriage wasn't even judged as rape, not as a crime at all -- not until the late seventies, and those curious cases made headline news for quite a while!

Facts such as Victim-Blaming --the woman "asking for it"-- which still happens to this day: a few of the many humiliating, insulting (to the victim, to be clear) questions: 'What was she wearing?" "Was she drunk/drugged?" (As to the latter: Voluntarily or involuntarily?)

Among many others, is rape mitigated by ANY of these (im)pertinent questions?
If a man was incapacitated in one or other of these ways and raped, would such a questions ever be asked?


These are just a very few "reasons" why in a very many cases it is felt to be completely useless to report a sexual assault

and of course don't discount the additional trauma of the social impact and humiliation visited upon the victim due to the judgment of others who hear/read about these 'valid questions'

in what cases were prosecuted!

[Withywindle]

132. I'm not surprised by it at all.

I bet most women aren't.

This is what we mean when we say we want men to LISTEN to us and take what we say about harassment and rape seriously. We know what we're talking about. We're not exaggerating or making up shit for the hell of it. THIS IS HOW IT IS.

[Lorien]

135. +1. When stats on rape are taken from law enforcement the percentage looks small

the real percentage when anonymous polls are taken are always more like 35-45%. If this were a conservative board the results would be far worse, as red States have much, much higher assault and rape rates than Blue States do.

[comtec]

332. Depends on what a conservative woman considers rape or harassment

That is, as a liberal, you are going to be more educated, not just about your body, but about your rights as a person, and understand better what is VERY UNacceptable.

I only mention that because I wonder if conservative women really get that - otherwise how could they be conservative?

I've always seen conservatives as lacking in either education, wisdom, or humanity.

I'm not trying to stir anything up, I promise.

I have always gone out of my way to avoid any kind of inappropriate behavior, especially with my wife.

I just bring it up because I think the numbers reported would be lower "you know, that's how boys are"
not that the actual numbers (I completely agree are probably much higher), just the reported / admitted.
I speak from painful experience i'll never go into... but admission is horribly hard - as im sure you know.

[seabeyond]

339. you are probably right on..... in more ways than you have suggested in this post. nt

[Prophet 451]

177. Not representative

Remember, this is a self-selecting crowd so any response here can't be held to apply to the general population. That said, the official estimates (based on crime reports and some educated guesswork) place the percentage of women who suffer rape during their lives at 20-25% which is still profoundly disturbing.

[Lorien]

211. I'd say 35-45%

based on reports from the women I know who felt comfortable enough to tell me about it-and NONE of them reported it to the police (neither did I for a number of reasons).

[seabeyond]

217. 4 women, two really girls. asked if raped. 4 rapes of two of the females.

first time i have ever asked any of my friends. it isnt something i have ever sat and chatted about with my female friends. but i was making a point for my two young nieces.... and asked

3 rapes amongst four females.

take note, i told them

[Prophet 451]

362. Interesting

If you don't feel comfortable explaining, feel free to say so but can I ask why you didn't feel able to report it?

[rasputin1952]

222. I agree...that is indeed a horror...

:(

[Cherchez la Femme]

266. I'm having difficulty reconciling this response

with your fairly vicious statements
--apparently, to my ken--
in response to Mr. Scorpio's post...

Quelle strange

[seabeyond]

52. i will clearly say, it is far from all men. absolutely. i know a lot of good men. but too many

men

[Lorien]

209. That's one of the reasons that I started working from home

Long strawberry blonde hair and an hourglass figure made working in a male dominated field very uncomfortable, to say the least. Every time I advanced at my job there were whispers that must have slept with someone (and I worked harder and longer hours than most, and excelled at what I did). There were more than a couple of times when I ended up pinned up against the wall and groped by married male coworkers in the copy room. No use complaining about it to the boss, either, since he spent his hours after work with these guys at a local strip club. I'm in my mid forties now and I STILL get vile propositions (not cute come ons) from complete strangers. I thought I'd be free of that by now, but hell-I know women in their mid fifties who still get harassed.

[Blue_In_AK]

35. What is your distinction between sexually assaulted and raped?

I can't really answer this question without a distinction being made.

[Maine-ah]

45. sexual assault

as I understand, does not include penetration. Rape does.

[Blue_In_AK]

48. Thanks.

In Alaska the word "rape" doesn't appear in our statutes anymore, just various degrees of sexual assault. Between adults, first degree sexual assault is what used to be called "rape."

That said, date rape used to be pretty common back in the old days before people began calling it "rape." I've experienced that, being flashed in public, having to talk my way out of being abducted when hitchhiking, catcalls, and sexual harassment in the workplace. A slimy 40-year-old boss I had when I first graduated college used to sneak up behind me and try to kiss me on the neck and quite literally chased me around my desk on more than a few occasions. He and his partner took me out to "lunch" one time, which turned out to be a topless bar. I was just 21 and had never experienced anything quite like that. Rather than have the option of suing, which I would have today, I had to quit my job because I just couldn't take it anymore.

[MoonRiver]

36. I've been sexually harassed on the streets and at work sites.

Never sexually assaulted or raped thank God. Sucks to have to fear sexual attacks throughout one's life. :(

[awoke_in_2003]

38. as a man...

this poll makes me sad. Not the poll itself, but the reality of the poll. K&R

[Parker CA]

43. I'll second that. Disturbing results, but they need to be seen. K&R

[stevenleser]

102. Yes, horrifying, K&R

I've fired one person in my life and it was because he inappropriately touched one of the females working for me.

[Taitertots]

39. What percentage pursued legal actions against them?

We should have a poll for that next.

[Maine-ah]

46. that's a good idea.

though, I know many have had difficulty pursuing legal action.

We should come up with some options for that poll.

1. did you pursue legal action & was successful
2. did you pursue legal action & was unsuccessful

[seabeyond]

55. no rape, one rape, more than one.... legal action? nt

[Crystal Clarity]

93. Also perhaps one for those who did not pursue legal action?

With an opportunity to explain why (if they wish to share). I know of a few women who did not file charges for various understandable reasons.

Just a suggestion. If everyone thinks that'd make it too complicated or whatever that's fine.

[Madam Mossfern]

97. No legal action

They never found the guy. It was a stranger. Think "Psycho".
I did report it to the police though, not fun.

[Blue_In_AK]

50. Not an option for date rape or workplace harassment

back in the '60s.

[Mojorabbit]

116. Or 70's. nt

[comtec]

333. or 80's from what i've heard (nt)

[Lorien]

130. Or today, depending on what part of the country you live in and who you work

for.

[Brickbat]

53. The thread that I started was strictly about street harassment -- a one-off catcall that in most

places isn't enforceable. Just FYI.

[seabeyond]

54. absolutely. i am seeing about 30% raped so far. how many reported. good question. nt

[etherealtruth]

60. Excellent idea

I would guess most of us did not report it.

Perhaps it would be interesting to look at the decade(s) and compare it to the willingness to report

[Karia]

232. Yes, thank goodness for laws and awareness

Nearly all of the harassment and assaults that I experienced occurred during my teens and 20s (1970s and 1980s) at school and at work. There was not the same awareness or sympathy for women then. We were "asking for it." In the 1970s, my friend was brutally raped by a stranger who broke into her apartment during the night, and the cops she called after she was sure the rapist had left said, "You can't thread a moving needle." I cannot imagine a police officer saying that to a victim these days.

I fended off a lot of awful stuff when I was young and never reported any of it. A few years ago I was assaulted and escaped (otherwise I think I would have been raped), and I called the police immediately. All of the officers were kind, compassionate, and professional. They found the attacker and he went to prison for a few years.

[seabeyond]

234. "You can't thread a moving needle."

i am really stupid with these kind of things, but always curious. what does this mean.

[barbtries]

246. it means

as i read it anyway, that if she'd only fought she would not have been raped. or to put it another way, since she did NOT fight hard enough, she was not raped.

[Karia]

249. Yes, an old saying

It goes along with the idea that the only real rape victim is a dead victim. These creeps argue that a living victim must have submitted rather that fight, and that therefore she "consented" so it was not rape.

[seabeyond]

252. wow. wow. i had no idea. oh boy. what i learn on du that will follow me everywhere.

thanks.

[comtec]

335. I've got one worse for you (sadly)

there was a court case I heard about a while back...

long-short, she knew she could not escape and because she asked the rapist to use a condom, they nearly threw the case out.

IIRC (at least I hope so) they convicted the asshole anyway on other charges/evidence, or something.

But I recall it being talked about for a while (this was before I listened to talk radio).

crazy... woman is trying to protect herself from AIDS, and god knows what else, and the defense wanted to call that consent!!!

yes there are days, I really do want to just hand over a sharp knife to a female and surrender my bits out of pure shame of my gender!

[seabeyond]

340. wow. i really am amazed at the stories i hear. eye opener for me too

and i am a woman.

hm

[seabeyond]

251. ahhhhhhhhhm. ahmmmmmm. gasp. no fuckin way. fucker.

i want to get in his face. wow. just a fuckin wow.

[etherealtruth]

258. We must be approximately the same age (I'm 48)

Among the "highlights" of that time was a physics professor that assured me that all of my physics problems could be resolved with a visit to his apartment, a boss that assumed it was his right to sleep with me ... and a former boyfriend/lover that didn't understand that it really was my right to break it off with him .... good times, good times.

[lukasahero]

72. Why would you ask?

Would that number change how we should feel about the # of women who have been raped?

[seabeyond]

73. i think it is more the silence of women/girls take it and move on. that type point. one huge reaso

is the very attitude we face by duers in the other thread that are just sure that really there is not the issue women are saying it is. when you have a thread full of women stating what we experience, and men chiming in too, adn still a number of men that reject the thread for one reason or another, is what a female will face when dealing with the prosecutable crimes.

[lukasahero]

75. I would actually like the guy who asked the question to answer it

And the reason I want to know his reason for asking it is I am curious if he is looking to blame the victim here. ("If so many of you have been raped, how many of you DID something about it?"

Again, I'm just curious why the question was asked and would like to know his reasons for asking it.

[seabeyond]

77. i hear ya... certainly. nt

[etherealtruth]

80. Oh ... You know your interpretation is likely correct

My instant reaction was: How many women felt they would be further victimized by the legal system?

I hope my interpretation is correct ....but, I doubt it

[joshcryer]

92. Nah, the poster defends the justice system (in the bad cop threads).

It's likely that they trust the modern justice system over some allegations of neglect.

[joshcryer]

90. That may have been true 30-40 years ago but these days the courts take sexual allegations seriously.

If there is any DNA the rapist is done. If there is no evidence and no witnesses, the guy is still going to get in deep trouble. This is why so many pathetic males bitch about females lying since it's extremely easy to put a male into jail with no evidence or witnesses or anything.

[seabeyond]

91. not true. josh. it isnt true. all the rapes in army, ignored. rape is the lowest prosecuted

crime and guilty verdict now than ever before. the "false accusations" is a hay day today, as you are stating. what female, especially young, wants to fight that. dna? she wanted it.

[joshcryer]

95. Rape is down by 85% since the 80s, and it appears that in cases where alcohol...

...was used by both parties, rape cases get thrown out. It's definitely unfortunate, but I dunno who is to blame in a situation where both parties are highly inebriated.

[seabeyond]

98. that 85% is challenged too. the way the info is gathered. fbi says 30-70%

of cases are not reported and that the numbers cannot be believed. they are saying it on sight. also, child rape and male rape not in numbers, now. also, many states adn cities are being challenged because rapes, if once reported, crime is filed, it is being filed under another charge. so there is a lot of challenge to the 85%, if that is the number. i dont know what it is.

i have googled in the past. not gonna tonight.

[joshcryer]

99. Here was the source:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=913013

I seem to recall this causing a big uproar on DU (since there is a rather vocal anti-porn group here).

[joshcryer]

104. HOLY SIHT AT CANADA'S RAPE STATISTICS! WTF is wrong with US/CAN?

Look at the wiki entry, CANADA is 74 rapes in 1000 people. US is 32 in 1000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

[Lorien]

134. Canadians are more willing to report it

most of my female friends, family members and I have been, but none of us ever reported it. Often reporting such things can bring more harm to a woman than good.

[seabeyond]

147. u.s. numbers have a number of problems. reporting is one. sending stats to fbi is voluntary, fbi

estimates numbers for places not sent in. big cities are fudging there numbers different ways keeping reported rapes low, by various manners.

[bettyellen]

248. but the thing is men often choose women who are inebriated because they know they're easy marks

i'd say I have had to seriously wrestle me 5-6 times in my life knocked on out with a frying pan, kneed them in the balls, etc. every single time was after drinking. none of them did i "lead on" in any way... just some chatting, but I know I'd have my story doubted because i was all dressed up and and drinking.
most gals i know have the same stories, and more than one each. i don;t know of anyone who reported it, and for good reasons. who needs to hear " well. i dunno about you because you drank... maybe you asked for it " fuck that shit.

[joshcryer]

372. Oh, I believe it. My brothers way into a girls pants? "Vodka."

He doesn't even drink but he keeps a big bottle of vodka in the fridge. Now, granted, I am not aware of any instance where he spiked a drink (he offers it to help prospective girls "relax"), but if anyone filed allegations against him I sure wouldn't feel bad going to court as a witness to that effect. I warned a younger lady about him once, she just laughed at me. There was another woman who was an absolute lush and could down a whole bottle of whiskey, but he still got her drunk enough to molest her. She stayed with him as his roommate for another 6 months.

If I had a daughter I would warn her from drinking alcoholic drinks and to bring her own bottle of water or freska or whatever with her and to never let it out of her sight. No, this does not excuse male behavior, it is proactive defense from male behavior that cannot be changed until they're all in jail and our culture changes.

[bettyellen]

384. Im trying to explain it fucks up the stats good. plenty of us have a few drinks on our own and

while i can handle my own pretty well ive had dozens of men hope they'd help get me the tip over point, in lieu of engaging me and trying to actually get me to like them, they tend to just ply you....and I was always smart enough to see it for what it was and get the f out of dodge. but a few times. they'd get upset and want to wrestle. also known as attempted rape.
anyway tipsy girls don't call the cops, because they know the cops are going to treat you like it was harmless if youre not bloodied , just a date and anyway you're unreliable as a witness, and half of them have done or seen frinds do the same thing. remember they gave Dahmer back his "date" after he tried to escape. anyway the waiting for girl to pass out or wrestle her into submission thing is waaay more common than anyone knows. and guys hate to hear about it. they act like they don't want to hear or believe it. witness these threads.

[FedUpWithIt All]

163. I suspect that the rate that most women are sexually intimidated at a young age contributes.

It is difficult to express to others but these things aren't usually isolated experiences for many women. It is a LIFETIME. I could not even begin to tell you how many times a male thought it was appropriate to speak or touch me in an inappropriate manner beginning when i was a toddler. I assure you it is staggering and i was one of the lucky ones.

You want to get away. Period. There is a fear that you are placing yourself in greater danger by confronting the issue. And in many of us, as children, our early attempts to get understanding or support led to less than assuring reactions and quite possibly more dangerous scenarios.

[defendandprotect]

244. The major betrayal on child sexual abuse came from Freud . . .

who knew very well from his female patients that they had suffered sexual abuse

by male family members in youth or were still suffering it --

Freud, presumably fearing that he would be attacked, reversed that reality and

created the "Oedipus Complex" -- the child expressing sexual yearings for the parent!!


Even the right wing Family Research Council confirms that MALES are our sexual abusers

of children . . .

And, hetereosexual males are 100X more likely to sexually abuse children than homosexual males!

[shanti2]

187. Oh please...

The incidence of rape in the military is higher now than it
was in my time (VietNam) and MOST go either not reported or
dismissed by the authorities. The military rarely goes after
the attacker any more especially in war zones. The number of
women coming back from Iraq who were raped is staggering. My
nephew is an MP and the stories of cases tossed out or not
investigated at all because of Command pressure will shock
you.

[eilen]

198. The worst of sexual harassment and

assault as well as when I was raped was when I was in the military. That was also when I was exposed to the largest variety of drugs and alcohol in my life. I was not inebriated when harassed but I was pretty drunk when I was raped. I had drank quite a bit the night before and I was feeling pretty sick the next day. My boss told me I could go lie down and get some rest. When I woke up he was on top of me and inside of me. It was broad daylight. I never did anything. I was waiting for orders to leave to my first command and I think I left 2 days later.

After that I was a real screw up and ended up getting kicked out. I don't think about hardly ever. I usually discourage young women from entering the military.

I don't usually think about that time that much. It was well over 20 years ago.

[defendandprotect]

241. Rather, it looks like it's easy to rape a female and get away with it . . .

And, given that there are upwards of 280,000 rapes of males every year in our

prisons -- let's leave alone other criminal activities like male guards "selling"

female prisoners to be raped -- how many of those males testify to the rape and

take it to the justice system? How many of those male rapists every year are held

acountable!

You have a fantasy view of the justice system --

[Odin2005]

245. The fucker that raped my friend got off with a sexual harassment conviction.

Because his lawyer convinced enough people that my friend "was exaggerating to get attention". :grr:

[defendandprotect]

346. Was this a prison rape?

[lukasahero]

348. Why would you ask that?

I don't mean to speak for Odin but I believe his friend was physically handicapped and in her own home when the rape occurred.

Why would you think it was a prison rape? Is there something you'd like to say?

[Odin2005]

350. WTF? NO!

[defendandprotect]

367. You do realize my post which you responded to ....

is discussing prison rape -- ?

Unfortunately, I had no other knowledge about your friend --

I see from another poster's comments that she was handicapped and raped in

her home. I'm very sorry.

However, males -- and women -- are being raped in our prisons, as well, and

little is being done about that, either.

[joshcryer]

373. That's quite fair enough, I hadn't considered prison rape.

[Taitertots]

121. It would be interesting to see whether rape is under reported, or under enforced

[comtec]

337. The answer to that is YES! sadly... and I don't even need to look that up (nt)

[kimi]

307. I'll tell you what, for me it wasn't an option anyway to report

the guy who raped me was an ex-boyfriend who broke into my apartment - angry that I'd broken up with him - and hit and raped me in front of my 2-year-old son. First he ripped the phone out of the wall, though. My mom was trying to call me from 400 miles away and couldn't get through, so she called the police, who came out the next day to check on me, after the ex had left. The police told me "Hey, it was your boyfriend, it'll never go anywhere in court, you'd best just move back home with your mom." Then they left.

That was in the early 80's. I moved in with my mom 3 days later.

[Control-Z]

40. Can you direct me to the threads

that inspired your OP? Thanks.

[lukasahero]

41. This one had a lot to do with it, I suspect

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9062677&mesg_id=9062677

[Maine-ah]

47. correct

and this one too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9073202

[MerryBlooms]

49. Sexually harassed in school, jobs, street, bars, restaurants, etc ...

Quit one job over it when I was 17 (30 years ago). Didn't realize there was a name for what was going on, just knew I had to get away.

[distantearlywarning]

51. I selected "Other"

Was sexually harassed by a manager at work, was date-raped by my first boyfriend. Also once successfully fought off a stranger on a dark street who was intent on sexual assault or possibly rape - he started out his efforts with cat-calling and escalated when I ignored him (and that's one great example of why many women find sexually oriented verbal street harassment so threatening...)

Worse than that have been the times in my life too numerous to count when a man overlooked or discounted me because I had a vagina. And how I became totally invisible to many men once I hit 30 and was no longer an object of sexual interest.

Despite this, I am not particularly bitter about "men" as a category, mostly because I've also met so many really cool, nice guys who gave the lie to the stereotypes and undermined the assholes. :-)

[Maine-ah]

58. there are (imho) more nice guys than not.

it's pathetic that this has gone on so long in our society.

I had a boss that sexually harassed me. I didn't have to deal with much else while in my 20's. On the tail end of my 30's now, and deal with it more than ever. One big reason for that is that I'm a bartender. Consistently getting remarks on my body features, asked to go to the hotel next door from where I work (by patrons), "show me your tits" assholes even offer me money to do so.

Perhaps another part of it, is that as I age, I'm getting better, and more confident in myself....some guys just like to shoot that down. I have a fellow bartender who claims "yeah, well if I looked like you and had a set of tits, I'd make more money"

[seabeyond]

74. whereas i always had good male bosses that never stepped over the line and were good mentors

my experiences were elsewhere.

but i hear ya

[Madam Mossfern]

57. Oops

Only voted for 'raped', somehow that overshadowed everything else. I should have voted 'other' looking back. I guess its a matter of perspective. A knife at your throat is different than an unfortunate remark.

Damn, now I'm having flashbacks.

[shireen]

129. hugs to you ...

flashbacks are painful. I wish i could tell you to forget something that's impossible to forget. All i can do is wish you some peace of mind.

:hug:

[MrScorpio]

59. K&R

[OnionPatch]

61. Never raped but came close on two occasions.

The first, I was able to get away. The second, I talked the guy out of it. In both cases I was extremely lucky.

Sexually harassed? :rofl: I can't even begin to remember how many times. I think it's fairly safe to say if you're a woman, you've probably been sexually harassed at least once, more likely multiple times.

[Maine-ah]

64. exactly.

I would like to hear from the five (so far) that voted none of the above EVER happened to them. I have never met one single woman that has *never* been at least sexually harassed.

[Liquorice]

82. I don't believe the "none of the above" answers. I've never met a woman who hasn't

experienced sexually harrassment of some kind. I think a few males chimed in and answered that way. IMO.

[Lorien]

138. +1. nt

[bettyellen]

386. have any of you guys seen a woman actually post that she's had none of these experiences? I haven't

those votes are from guys, and we could name most of them ourselves.

[Dappleganger]

62. One of those people with a bullseye on her...

perverts have been chasing me down since I was 6 years old. I answered: "All of the above"

[Bluerthanblue]

68. ...

There are far too many of us.

:hug:

[Dappleganger]

118. Ain't it the truth?

It really is sad. And you know, it's hard to believe that it still is pushed under the rug still in this day and age.

:hi:

[FarLeftRage]

63. K & R...

N/T...

[lapislzi]

65. I was drunk

I had expressed interest in the guy before...he decided that "tonight was the night." Despite not wanting to, I was in no position to argue, and he knew this. He poured me into a cab. I guess that makes me a prostitute, because I earned about $5.50 for my "services."

Date rape has many faces, and none of them is pretty.

[Maine-ah]

66. "date rape"

I have honestly never liked that term. I think it's an attempt to down-grade the act of rape. Rape is rape.

Fucking pathetic assholes that can only get fucking laid if they're sticking it in someone who can't even communicate the fact that they don't want to have have sex with them.

[Bette Noir]

158. A friend's sister, 19 yo, was murdered when she tried to fight back against

her date, when he tried to rape her. Yeah, date rape is serious.

[Odin2005]

247. Yup. Most rapes are some kind of "date rape"

It seems like our society only focuses on the MINORITY of "grab a woman off the street" rapes. IMO this is because the later does not force us to come to grips with the misogyny and men thinking they are ENTITLED to sex, much easier to dismiss all rapists are monsters.

[seabeyond]

253. yup. and this is the huge issue i think en need to know. i think many dont want to hear it.

good men. really good men that would always stand with women. but they cannot wrap their mind around his. it is not only the monster. it is the normal ole, everyday boy with an opportunity, a lassez attitude and society that conditions and feeds....

[Bluerthanblue]

67. this is a sad poll.

all of the above.

This is one place I'd prefer to be in the vast minority.

[hfojvt]

69. the numbers seem high to me

and I am not sure what the point is. One event in a long life, is not the same thing as a "daily basis". Also it seems to me that "sexual harrassment" can fall on a spectrum from mild to severe.

Also, you perhaps should not feel so all alone. What would be the results of the same poll asked of men? First, I have often faced the threat of assault from other men. Second, I have been sexually harrassed a couple of times at work. Third, I have been everbally harrassed many times by females when I was just minding my own businesses. Fourth, I have been assaulted and threatened by many females. When I was about 10 or 11 one of my older (two years older than me) sister's "friends" spent half an hour threatening me when I had been just playing in my own back yard, she came up and started talking about how she could beat me up and might just do so just to prove she could, and it was 15 minutes or half an hour before I knew I was safe.

Is my experience common, or do you think that 70% of men are gonna say 'none of the above'?

[kwassa]

71. I think that 70% of men will say "none of the above">

and possibly 80%.

[joshcryer]

84. I'd say 95%

[Chan790]

301. I'd be "All of the above" but I'm rather glad to be the rare male there.

In fact, two of the top three were at the hands of the same person. Molested, as well. I wouldn't add it to the list as I'm uncertain that it's differentiated from the first three sufficiently to require inclusion. I'm going to be glad when he's rotting though. Unfortunately, he's not that much older than me.

[Maine-ah]

76. this does happen on a daily basis though

women, in general are raped everyday. Some of us here endure sexual harassment on a daily basis.

I'd suggest you post a poll then, I would like to see the numbers. And I'm am sure there are many men out there that are sexually assaulted, abused, and harassed on a daily basis. And I also know we'll never know the true numbers to that because many of those men are not willing to pursue legal action. For that matter, even discuss it with a buddy due to embarrassment.

The facts remain though, it does certainly happen to way more women than men. Regardless of gender, it's wrong.

Thank you for sharing your story with us, and if you do post a poll, I would hope that the men of DU will actively and honestly participate.

:hug: :hi:

[joshcryer]

85. Absolutely, but rapes shouldn't be so high in a civilized world.

Sexual harassment, I understand, women here consider leering that, which is fine and their right, but most men wouldn't consider leering sexual harassment. Women who feel sexually harassed by leers should do something about it though, so should women who have been raped, because 33% is insanely high for a website which one might assume is US-centric for the most part, and certainly most posters are from a country where womens rights are at least marginally respected. Compared to third world countries women in the western world are practically equals.

[Maine-ah]

109. wrong spot

[wellstone dem]

78. On the otherhand, it might be low

I answered the harassment choice, but as I've been sitting here, I thought again about something that happened to me in my childhood. And I know I really should have answered combination.

[Curmudgeoness]

81. One event in a long life....no big deal....just get over it....

I find your statement unacceptable and insensitive. I, for one, lost all trust in any man because of one event here and one event there. I don't even date anymore for fear of what might happen. Do you really think that one event cannot ruin the rest of that long life?

And I will bet that most women who are saying things like this happened are not talking about one event. Life is full of these events, some more minor than others, but still there.

[Liquorice]

83. I was offended by that statement as well. Some men don't realize what

the fear of being physically overcome and sexually violated is like... and then there's the humiliation of having a physically stronger male yell filthy vile things at you as you pass by and not being able to do anything because you can't. Men don't live in that world, and many have no clue what living in that world is like.

[Curmudgeoness]

89. Men often think that we are too sensitive and take offense

everywhere. Personally, I am not even worried about the idiots who yell filth, as long as they don't approach me. I am not offended easily, but I have had several more serious problems in my life. So to all the men who think this is a joke and women are just hysterical sorts, I hope you come back in your next reincarnation as a woman. No one will listen to you either when that happens.

[eyeofdelphi]

274. i agree

One event in a long life? unless one has experienced such an event, one shouldn't comment on it. i have experienced two such events, one assault and one rape. i think about them each every fucking day of my life. every single day. it's been years. in fact one of the guys is dead. but it still sucks.
as for speaking up, i tried to tell friends about the assault in high school, but no one would believe that this guy would want anything to do with me. as for the rape, no one believed me b/c he was my best friend and roommate. it makes it hard when no one believes you and calls you a liar. even harder when you can no longer trust anyone. if your best friend can do this, then who is left to trust.
i don't find the numbers surprising. every woman i know has experienced something on the more severe side of the scale. no one i know has ever reported anything. it's not just one inconsequential event. it's life shattering.

[hfojvt]

103. see post 101

not that you are likely to be assauged by it.

[verdalaven]

123. Thank you for your response.

That was to Curmudgeoness btw

[MerryBlooms]

86. You've experienced this sort of abuse

yet, you discount others' experiences?
One event isn't significant? You do realize one event can change an entire life path?

[hfojvt]

101. one traumatic event can

I was thinking more of sexual harrassment at work, which, as I said, can often be somewhat mild. For my own example, a teenage female thug tried to grab my junk (sexual assault), and a woman I was not attracted to got physical with me, and I experienced half a dozen instances of sexual harrassment at work (but it is now pretty uncommon since I am a geezer).

Not the best experiences of my life, but on this poll I would show as an other (mote than one of the three), grouped in with violent rape which is not even in the same galaxy in terms of a traumatic expereince.

That's what I meant. One, or ten somewhat mildly unpleasant experiences in my life of 48 years are not the same as daily harrassment or one experience of rape or battery, and the same would be true if I was a woman, and yet they are all lumped together in a sort of "all women are victims" and "all men are perpetrators or clueless (except for the chosen few)"

[MerryBlooms]

107. I'm sad for your experiences

No one should be forced to endure abuse of any kind. I hope you had a strong support network and have found healing.

I don't see us all lumped together. I see individuals relating their experiences with other individuals. The poll just reflects those individual experiences.

We really need a poll for men on this one. I am curious as to how many men have experienced these abuses from women - chronically. I know my experiences started when I was 9 y/o and continued into my 40's.

[FedUpWithIt All]

170. My SO had a woman sexually harassing him at work for a few months.

It was bad enough to cause him stress. He felt that he couldn't say anything because the woman was a "hit" with the other men he worked with and he was worried about his job security.

As far as i know, that was the only time he endured that type of thing.

The only other harassment type of thing i have even heard of, with the males i know, was when my brother was chased everyday, for a kiss, by a girl in elem. school.

Ask me about the females i know and i could not name a single one who has not been affected by some sort of sexually intimidating behavior.

[knightmaar]

207. re: elementary school

There was a girl in grade one who ran around making puckering her lips and making kissing noises at all the boys. They would, naturally, run away in fright.

When she did it to me, I think she expected me to run away, too. I'm not sure why, but instead of running I kissed her.

She shrieked and ran away.

I was confused, but she stopped making kissing noises at us after that.

In general, however, I've never experienced anything like what I read about in this thread. Occasionally a girl would rub my head in a bar or something, which I suppose counts - but I never cared.

[FedUpWithIt All]

229. Her reaction when you turned the tables is interesting.

Kids are fascinating little animals IMO.

My brother's experience was a little different. The girl only chased him. Every day. When she would catch him she would tackle him to the ground and kiss him. She was a bully and the experience was pretty upsetting for him at the time.

[seabeyond]

230. my youngest, 4 yr old preschool..... girl kissed him. he was PISSED

lol. so mad. how dare she. didnt like it at all. didnt like that she did something he did not want. was a lesson learned. we talked about it and i totally honored his position and her invasion of his space and taking away his say so.

i, on the other hand, had a boy give me a kiss at 4, and i LOVED it.

my oldest too. the girl bent to him and kissed. he cherished.

[jobycom]

256. Sexual harrassment is like a hate crime. It's not the one event, it's the structure behind it.

When a black family has a cross burned on their front yard for moving into a white neighborhood, it's a pretty minor thing in terms of clean-up and lasting effect of the one incident. But the incident is one expression of a much larger threat. The family knows that the message is much more complex--don't make waves, don't get uppity, don't do anything to stand out. You aren't one of us, you don't belong here, you watch yourself or things will get worse, and don't ever expect to fit in.

Sexual harrassment at work is like that. It's a message to put a woman in her place. That "place" isn't easy to interpret, but it's not just a "I think you're hot" place. It's also a "hot women are here to entertain me, and as long as they understand that and don't think they can ever rise to an equal place with me, things will be okay" place. It's a threat and a constant message of hierarchy.

I'm a 45 year old male. I've been groped at work by men and women, both co-workers and customers. I've been groped randomly in book stores (I used to pretty hot :) ). I've even, by some definitions, been raped (not forcibly, but with threats of suicide). Those were minor incidents in my life, because they didn't really amount to any systemic oppression. They were just acts by desperate or mean or perverted people, easily shrugged off, for the most part.

But I've also seen sexual harrassment at places I've worked. I've seen male superiors go all touchy-feely with female underlings. I've seen males use sexual innunendoes and crude language to degrade female employees and try to draw a line between them and the male employees. I've seen women pressured into going out with male co-workers and bosses.

It's a different animal than what happened to me. It's like a bully in class. He makes a threat, you tell a teacher, and the bully says "Ah, we were just playing. I didn't know he'd take it so seriously," and the teacher gives you a lecture about not being so sensitive and maybe even a mention of the old "nobody likes tattle tales" addage, and you know that the next time you tell the teacher about being bullied, you'd better have clear evidence. The bully knows this, too, so he keeps it low, so you don't have anything you can take a snapshot of or show to anyone as proof--just more of the same types of complaints you made in the first place. Soon the teacher thinks you are just too sensitive, or always trying to get someone else to solve your problems, and soon you are seen as the troublemaker. One day you fight back, and then you are labeled the bully, and the teacher witnesses that you've long had it in for this other guy, and that other guy is really the victim.

That's the system of sexual harrassment in a work place. The person who complains is "too sensitive," and the complaint creates a negative image at work, because bosses just don't want to deal with conflicts like that. So the victim has the choice of constantly complaining and ruining her image, or of taking the abuse and not fighting back. Or of finding a new job and developing the reputation of a quitter.

It doesn't always happen like that, just as a cross doesn't always have to be burned on the lawn, but if it happened at the previous job, you don't report it at the new job, just to be safe.

So it's not one unpleasant moment in time. It's a lesson that can be reaffirmed at any moment. It's a state of caution and mistrust and suspicion. You haven't experienced it that way. You may have had the same individual incident happen to you, but you don't have the history behind you to define that incident.

[lukasahero]

272. OMG - this really should be a post all on its own - everyone should read it

Thank you so much, jobycom for taking the time to write it. I'm so sorry for what you have been through and can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your understanding of what I, and other women, go through.

[jobycom]

313. Thanks. If I made it a post of its own, it would sink like the Titanic, I'm afraid.

I have that effect. :)

[seabeyond]

314. i liked it. and appreciated the post. nt

[lukasahero]

316. You are too modest

But I know the feeling and can relate. (Sometimes I think half the board has me on ignore...)

If it's any consolation, I look forward to your posts. :hi:

[seabeyond]

324. i always like your posts. and so informative

articulate and put together so much more clear than mine. this is so funny. you say it all so there is no need too respond. kinda like jodis post.

isnt that funny how we preceive and that how we are preceived. good to see the difference. that is why often i will just put a little nothing of ya or something to let them know i read and appreciate.

[lukasahero]

331. Aw, thanks

At least I know I'm not on EVERYbody's ignore list. ;)

I always admire your strength in wading into these fiascoes. You are far more bold than I. And I am so glad you're raising your boys - at least we know there'll be a few more good guys out there fighting the fight. :hi:

[seabeyond]

342. lol

no, i dont imagine you are on anyones ignore.

:toast:

bold i am... lol

[Curmudgeoness]

341. Wow, that was intense. And right on the money. You know

bullying all too well, and that is exactly what happens to women in the workplace as well as kids in school. I agree that this should be posted as on OP. And so what if it did sink like the Titanic. It doesn't really matter, does it? And more people may see this. I love men like you.

:hug:

[wickerwoman]

379. Exactly,

I was harassed by two RAs in my college dorm. I reported them and the university only gave them a reprimand in their personnel files. They weren't fired. They weren't kicked out of the building. They weren't even demoted.

So I still had to spend the rest of the year living on the same floor, running into them almost daily, putting up with their friends glaring at me, debating whether or not to leave my room on the chance I might run into them.

And then I wasn't accepted back into the residence the next year because applications are evaluated by RAs. Had to move to another place off campus that was further away and more expensive.

Honestly, if I could turn back the clock, I don't think I would have reported it. The ostracization and paranoia I had to put up with afterwards were worse than the harassment itself.

[defendandprotect]

164. You're reciting an episode from when you were 10 or 11 and then turning

around and suggesting that harrassment or rape is "only one event in a long life" -- !!!

When I was about 10 or 11 one of my older (two years older than me) sister's "friends" spent half an hour threatening me when I had been just playing in my own back yard, she came up and started talking about how she could beat me up and might just do so just to prove she could, and it was 15 minutes or half an hour before I knew I was safe.


But, you certainly have a long memory -- !!

Yes -- many men fear the men we all fear!

What of males -- have you suffered incest? Child abuse? Cause many victims of child sexual

abuse are males.

What it mainly looks like is that you are making every effot you can to try to belittle what

females are telling you of their experiences in being harassed and attacked and raped by males!

Try listening and learning rather than trying to deny and belittle!

[readmoreoften]

166. One incident of a kid exploding in front of your face. Why do you have PTSD?

It was just one incident. Heck, it didn't even happen to you! It's not like you knew the kid....

[FedUpWithIt All]

70. At least two of the above. Still trying to come to terms with a potential third. n/t

[pipi_k]

88. Sexually harassed and sexually assaulted (no rape)

Sexually harassed by an ex boss, who stopped when I threatened to tell his wife.

Sexually assaulted (no rape) by my stepfather, who made up all sorts of "cute" excuses and justifications when I told my mother, who ended up not believing me.



Most of the other men in my life have been decent human beings, thank goodness.

[Lyric]

105. Sexually harassed more times than I can count.

Also sexually assaulted, although I managed to get away before it got far enough to become rape.

I've never been "raped", but I'm still young. Who knows what might happen in the future? :(

:grouphug: for my sisters...

[Withywindle]

139. I think you made a HUGE point that deserves boosting.

If you are a woman and you have been raped, you understand that you are in waaayyyyy too much company. That what happened to you is all too common, and minimized frequently all over the place (including here).

If you are a woman and you have NOT been raped, you never have any sense of security that fortunate state of being will continue. You know damn well that it could happen at any time. It's statistically more likely to happen to younger women (or children) but women in their 90s have been raped. You won't be 100% safe from it until you're dead (and maybe not even then--you get the occasional necrophilia news story from time to time).

[seabeyond]

148. i had two nieces and a friend with me and asked them, who has been raped. 4 women. 3 rapes

to two of the women, out of four.

i told the nieces, think

4 women, 3 rapes, two women not raped.

that is our reality

[seabeyond]

149. and stalking is not even on the list. i have had two stalkers.

neither x bf. neither more than kinda friends that wanted more.

[Withywindle]

153. OH shit stalking, that's a whole other issue.

I have one. He is an ex but we broke up more than 15 years ago. He still feels compelled to email me verbose hate screeds full of death threats once or twice a year.

[aquart]

215. Gave up a rent-controlled apt. in Brooklyn

Among other reasons because I figured out my stalker lived in my building. He'd ring my bell at one or two in the morning, and a few minutes later he would knock on my door and then run away.

[iris27]

363. "kinda friends that wanted more"...yeah those were my stalkers, too.

Each an awkward guy that I tried to be nice to, who took that ENTIRELY the wrong way, and when I tried to clarify, the ugly came out. Notes with roses dripping blood...hiding behind pillars to follow me to class...showing up "unexpectedly" whenever I studied at the library or an academic building instead of in my (locked) room...

Yeah, yet another reason I'm better off without Facebook.

And yet, I'm comparatively lucky in that none of these guys ever crossed the line from creepy to violent.

[Matariki]

106. Attempted rape by a guy who very possibly had harassed me on the street

A guy broke into my house at night, *very* possibly a guy I ignored on the street when he was doing the 'hey baby' shit. When I ignored these two guys they started calling me bitch and so forth. They had seen me come out of my house. A week later someone broke in and tried to rape me. I turned the tables, stabbed him with the screw driver he had and chased him out. Wasn't a good experience.

Street harassment - can't even count the number as it was pretty constant from adolescence through my late forties.

Needless to say I get very angry at people who say this doesn't happen or rarely happens.

[chrisa]

113. Holy crap!

:hug:

[glitch]

108. All the votes above 'all of the above' should be added to 'all of the above' IMO

compare that total to 'none of the above'

[chrisa]

110. The poll results are scary.

How horrible people on this planet treat each other. :(

[Freetradesucks]

114. Interesting....

27% as of this post of DU members have been raped, compared to less that 4% of the general population. That is a pretty wide gap. I wonder what the X factor is?

[Mojorabbit]

119. Perhaps it is easier

to speak of anonymously.

[seabeyond]

122. different statistics but it is 1 in 4 or 1 in 6 women raped. 1 in 3 raped in army and college. nt

[Withywindle]

140. Where does that 4% stat come from?

Link please.

[Freetradesucks]

200. Whoops my bad. I just went back and looked at the stat

again. It's almost 4 per 100,000 annually. In a lifetime a woman has more than a 1 in 4 chance of being raped. Sorry for the bad stat.

[Withywindle]

354. Yeah, that's a VERY dramatic difference.

Thanks for double-checking and admitting you made a mistake.

So the numbers here don't surprise me at all - if it's slightly higher than the obscene 25% average, well, you have to consider that a lot of women become involved in feminism and other progressive causes because of anger at what happened to them or someone close to them (men might also) or what might happen to them.

So I'd expect that. We are a self-selecting community, after all.

[readmoreoften]

171. Well where do you get that statistic from?

Considering that 1/3 women are raped it doesn't make sense.

[Maine-ah]

188. I'm sure there are many

women who don't report it, so the statistics are probably way off.

[Lorien]

205. The stats I've seen say 35%

but remember; most rapes never are reported. I know many women who were raped-quite a few of them as children-but none of them reported it to authorities (I didn't either. I live in the South so that would be a whole new nightmare).

[Raine]

115. other, sort of ...

I've been "backed into a corner" and felt up and bumped into to to such an extent that I had to grasp a post to escape from the touches coming from all sides and this was in public. :-( One time in college a guy stalked me in the book stacks of the library, scared me so much that I left before I had finished my research. :scared: I later heard someone else had been raped up there.

Edit: to make clearer.

[IMATB]

117. shocking

sad, disturbing.

For years I hid in shame thinking all that happened was my fault. The day I let that go was the day I started living.

The poll results make me feel sick to my stomach.

Peace.

[undergroundpanther]

124. wrong voted...

should have put all of the above. I thought it was click all that apply..Duh'oh.(my vote was for when I looked female, before my gender surgery BTW.)

[Odin2005]

125. K&R

[femrap]

127. I finally got a gun

and a carry license. Things are just out of control lately...the economy and the hate-filled airwaves. And so much willful ignorance.

I thought it was time I leveled the playing field.

[Lorien]

133. I'd love to hear from the ten women(?) who voted "none of the above"

what part of the Country do you live in, and how did you manage to spare yourself from harassment, assault and/ or rape?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

136. me too ---

I am guessing they have been very sheltered....

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

150. amish? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

151. Do the Amish even have computers?

and wasn't there a thread about an Amish child molester on here the other day...? :shrug:

but, yeah I know what you mean....

I hate to say these 10 are obtuse or maybe just oblivious to it all?

[Lorien]

202. I think that those ten probably have testicles

or they did until very recently. Even half the transsexual women I know have at the very least been harassed.

[Cherchez la Femme]

315. I was just reading an article yesterday

don't have the link nor remember what site I saw it (not my computer so I can't bookmark)
--but for all I remember it could have been here--

but it was about the (edit: Amish) elders being unable to control a mid-twenties church member from continually raping a series of young church children,
including his own young'uns.

THEN, at the end of the news item there was an entire list of links about so many different Amish, from many different states, all committing multiple molestations, sexual assaults, rapes, including those of children, gang-rapes (of all ages) and incest -- some all by the same person for almost every mentioned category.

There were so many links I remarked to my S.O. that it looked like an epidemic.


However, at least the Amish will, however late, turn their incorrigibles over to the legal authorities rather than keep it internal and secret like many main-stream churches do.


Disclosure: I was brought up Catholic, attended parochial schools from grades K-12.
I remember as a child hearing parents discuss how the church would transfer 'problem priests' --and we all knew exactly what that meant-- around to different parishes, always adding that 'there would be trouble some day'.
All this was no secret, but it was whispered on the 'down-low', if I may use that expression :)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

388. yes, That is what I remembered.. Thanks for posting this. n/t

[LostinVA]

391. sexual assault, especially incest, is an epidemic in Amish communities

And, the females are not only often blamed for it, but once the male apologizes before the congregation, the female is supposed to get over it. Authorities are not called in. It's finally starting to be exposed.

[Kat45]

137. Not sure what to answer. What category is this in?

I was on an old narrow escalator in the subway station and a man behind me grabbed my ass (really a bit more than just my ass, if you know what I mean). Then he scooted by me, ran down the escalator and on his way out the door, he yelled "felt good." Does that count in the assault category? When I got to work and told people, none of the guys believed me! They thought I was making it up or fantasizing! My female boss took me aside and told me about the time a man rubbed up against her on the train.

And though not on the street, two different guys grabbed my ass on the stairs in high school.

Harrassment has happened, I'm just not sure if this goes in the assault category. Let me know and I'll answer the poll.

[Maine-ah]

142. if there is physical contact then it's assault

I would think.

[rosesaylavee]

144. Yes. That was assault.

[Kat45]

146. Thank you to you and Maine-ah

I answered the poll with the combination answer. That's what I thought it was, but I wasn't certain.

[LostinVA]

392. Yes, that sure as hell is assault

[knitter4democracy]

141. Harassed and assaulted, both.

I get so upset when people say that there's no problem or that things are soooo much better today.

[rosesaylavee]

143. At work

years before the term 'sexual harrassment' was invented. Forever grateful to Anita Hill for bringing it to the national attention at great loss to herself. Thank you Ms. Hill. Your stepping up to share your story on national television paved the way for this behavior to be recognized and banned. It won't ever be eradicated... but at least we now recognize it for what it is.

[me b zola]

145. Yes. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

154. Everything but rape

2 serious attempts though, one with a gun and one who beat me bloody. Fought and ran my way out of it.

[Solly Mack]

156. K&R

[Nay]

157. Combination:sexually harassed and sexually attacked.

Harassed:
A district manager of the store where I worked when I was in high school (I was 16) asked me to bring him some groceries to his hotel room. I did. He did not attack me, but years later I realized he had had a "thing" for me (we talked all the time at work---he was a big reader, and recommended books, etc.), and that I had been safe only because he had enough of a conscience to realize I was truly very innocent and that he couldn't live with himself if he had done anything.

A coworker at a drug store rubbed his hard penis against my backside as he passed me as we both stood behind the counter.

As I drew pictures in a cemetery for a college art class, a flasher flashed me.

Just recently, I was walking alone in a local park. A male jogger passed me. As I walked past a group of picnic tables, I noticed that he was sitting up on one of the tables with his feet on the seating. His whole dick was hanging out of his short jog shorts. I pretended not to see.



Sexually attacked:
Ass grabbed in a store while I was bending over a store display

Man passed me in a pedestrian tunnel, turned around and jammed his hand between my legs and then ran.

6 drunk men chased me at night on a deserted highway, trying to run my car off the road. I had a faster car. I had to hit 135 mph to get away from them.

In my own apartment by a man whose sister was a friend. We had been on a date, and only when I burst out crying was an attempted rape averted; he told me he thought women liked it, but had the grace to apologize and to understand that no, women don't like to get raped, and that I never wanted to see him again.

[readmoreoften]

176. Workplace assaults! You reminded that my first waitress job when I was 15 I was assaulted

by both cooks. One would grab me and the other just threatened to rape me in the back room when I talked back to him. Fun stuff.

[defendandprotect]

159. I listed just harassment, but it's also assault ...not rape ...

I missed that combination thing --

Yes, I had a boyfriend try to kill me -- because I was calling it quits with him!

Many forms of harassment -- once when my job depended upon it, but someone who knew

got me moved out of that situation. And the idea that young girls should be open to

even flattering comments by old guys any time they feel like it is another idiocy.

Still many problems with group male put downs of females --

whereas in reverse, the entire male group will react because they well understand

the power of riducle effects all males!

Women don't stand up for one another in the same way and they should!


And of course street harassment more times than I could count --

[defendandprotect]

236. ... which actually is another point re how many women are killed by their partners ...!!!

[defendandprotect]

371. Another K&R --

[defendandprotect]

160. And -- thanks for asking -- !!

IMO, we need a lot more discussion here at DU on these issues --

[Skittles]

162. well

the one guy who tried pawing me ended up with a broken nose and broken teeth :D

[BlancheSplanchnik]

165. Brilliant thread.

It reveals some truth about HOW MANY women's lives are affected, that is rarely illustrated.....


Oh geez, here I go getting pedantic again.

Two out of 3.


I haven't come across the cartoon I saw mentioned.....







PS How is it that this didn't get deleted for calling out? I mean, I'm VERY glad it didn't get cut, but I've posted things that I thought were within the rules, yet got cut.

Well, anyway, I'm glad this didn't because it would be a real loss to the community if it had.

[Angry Dragon]

167. This is a very sad poll

[seabeyond]

169. thank you for recognizing it is a sad poll

and it should be obvious it is that, but too many dont pay attention. so i am glad you did. thank you

[jennied]

168. sexually harassed (school, work, bar, on the street) - More than I can count...

[readmoreoften]

172. The only female I've ever met who hasn't been sexually assaulted is my partner.

And my partner is FTM and gets a ton of verbal abuse and physical threats from being a butch dyke (back in the day) and/or trans (now)

[readmoreoften]

173. ,

[readmoreoften]

174. I recently found out that a "friend" is a rapist and has raped two people I know.

Well, at least two separate friends. This guy is so "sweet" I used to claim that he was the least homophobic guy on the planet, a beautiful soft-spoken soul. Then I found out that he's a rapist. On one occasion when everyone was swimming as a group, a female friend (lesbian) floated down the river on a tube and got out to spend some time meditating alone. He came out from the bushes held her down and raped her--ejaculated inside her actually--and then apologized and got all "nice guy" again. This girl is very quiet and beautiful and shy and has way low self-esteem. When she finally opened up about it, another acquaintance got tears in her eyes (also a lesbian) and told the same story.

Talking to other people we find out that he's got quite the trail of victims. He targets young lesbians with very low self-esteem, usually with obvious histories of abuse--people who are tattooed or unconventional and won't feel comfortable going to the police. He's never been charged and there's nothing I can do about it that I know of.

[readmoreoften]

175. I was assaulted by and almost gang-raped by about 20 men.

4 men decided they were going to pass me around after work. I thought the other men would call the police but they just wanted dibs. I got away by making strange, unattractive faces, flapping my arms and acting like a monkey and a bird. To this day I have no idea how it worked. The 4 men "in charge" of the situation just busted up laughing. One even asked to escort me to my car to make sure I was safe. The situation was bizarre. What was also bizarre was that afterward everyone said I was "lucky." And I guess I was. Afterall I wasn't gangraped by 20 men. But, then again, I was assaulted by the original four--though not raped, so that's not too much luck on the "luck spectrum."

[Cherchez la Femme]

317. OMG!

:hug:

[LostinVA]

393. Jesus Christ

[clyrc]

178. I voted for sexual assault, since it happened to me twice,

but in the couple of seconds since I voted I've already remembered several instances of sexual harassment.

[snot]

179. Pls post this and variants thereof often . . .

Most men like most humans are fine people; we all struggle to do better with the cards we're dealt.

But I think it's hard for men to realize how much crap women deal with, and frankly, how much TERROR.

E.g., if you as a man truly understand, if you find yourself walking behind a single woman alone at night, you'll please cross to the other side of the street, then speed up and pass her, so she can stop worrying that you might be following her.

[Anakin Skywalker]

181. I can't wait to hear the response to this.....

"E.g., if you as a man truly understand, if you find yourself walking behind a single woman alone at night, you'll please cross to the other side of the street, then speed up and pass her, so she can stop worrying that you might be following her."

Are you serious?

[Maine-ah]

190. have you ever been a female walking alone at night?

most of us wouldn't by choice.... several times while I was living in southern Fla I had to walk home by myself at night. I carried pepper spray, but I could be over-powered easily. I'm very small.

[Cherchez la Femme]

321. And Florida, at least,

has the reputation of being one of the most

if not THE most

serial killing states in the union!

:shiver:

[seabeyond]

193. sigh. why would you have a problem with it?

i have never thought about this, but when reading, i thought, what a clever idea. why would you have a problem with it. it is stated 1 in or 1 in 4 women/girls have been raped. so it is not a fabricated fear. why would you have a problem being conscious of this and doing whatever to make a female not be fearful?

[eilen]

208. Another Hot Tip

If you are ever a male patient in a hospital, it will not endear you to your young pretty nurse if you say "I'll feel much better if you get in here with me." After she asks you to rate your pain. Asking "Got a boyfriend?"-- and calling her "Sugar" is not appreciated. (Actually happened on Thursday night). The nurses were talking about how gross and disgusting this patient was. "I can't stand to go in there." I think were the exact words of his nurse.

She just might wait an extra 15 minutes before she brings that pain medication.

[uppityperson]

349. Yes. Having been raped, having friends who have been raped, the fear stays with you

I have stopped and looked at men who have been walking behind me. Confronted them in a lit area. Usually they just pass by, some glare, but still I am afraid when being followed by a man at night.

[uppityperson]

351. go to this reply as it is put well...

" All women grow up being prey

And then learning from an early age what it means, and each copes in their own way with it. Men are often surprised when they hear this, as they have no concept what it means to be prey as a part of living your life."

[seabeyond]

353. Anakin Skywalker needs to read 254. to see how two men look at this so totally different.

clang gets a huge thank you for this. something so simple. something out of understanding. something with compassion.

vs

angry, that a woman dare fear. the audacity

i think it is the epitome of what we have been talking on these three threads about womens issues and mens participation.

one man gets it and finds a solution that works for all, .... without resentment

and one man is pissed.

[snot]

361. Absolutely serious.

[iris27]

365. Yes.

Absolutely.

[LostinVA]

394. Yes, she is serious, and you need to fucking do that

My male friends, gay and straight, my FATHER, know enough to do that, and not to meet the eyes of and say hello to a woman when they are both walking alone in an isolated area. They just speed up and walk away.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

418. I would love it --

if men did that for me! Seriously. There is nothing like the cold fear you feel when you are walking at night and notice a man is walking behind you. You are immediately on guard, listening to his footsteps to see if they are coming closer, looking around to see if there is anywhere you could go if he should try to attack you -- you are stuck thinking/evaluting/waiting until his intentions beome clear. :shrug:

[raccoon]

183. All of the above. nt

[madokie]

186. I'm happy to report as a male I haven't done any of those things to a woman,

man either as far as that goes. I learned early on that a girl was the best thing to happen to a male. You girls are the light of my life. The times when I've witnessed the harassment of the girls I've taken up for them and will continue to. You make my life worth living and I mean that with all my heart.

[seabeyond]

194. ah, thank you. and you know

i think you men are pretty nifty too, lol.

in my odd ball life, regardless of what my cause may be, i am blessed with about all men/boys in my life. it is lots of work, but it is lots of reward. i have a great niece that comes around and when she leaves i look at boys and tell them.... there was a reason i had all boys, lol.

[Xenotime]

191. This poll just shows..

that the over-masculinity nature of the male today needs to be controlled.

[seabeyond]

195. we have had a good strong decade of male dominance between repugs

war and infusion of porn all over all the time, oh and the evolutionary behavorists and media promoting this at all cost.

i dont think it is control we are look for. but a little reflection and insight would be nice. having only males in my life, i really think that is all that is needed. once in aware, then it pretty much takes care of the problem

[CoffeeCat]

233. but sex crimes against a person...

...aren't about the perpetrator being too masculine, horny or just unable to control themselves.

Sex crimes are about VIOLENCE. These perpetrators HATE women and they are attempting to demean
them and cause significant emotional pain and distress.

These crimes are motivated by the deep desire to traumatize someone and power up on them. These
aren't simply horny guys who need to have sex right now.

These are very angry, vengeful, violent people who attempt to use sex as a weapon. Their desire
is to cause great harm.

I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding about rape and sex crimes in general.

[The Backlash Cometh]

192. I got felt up by an airport security guard.

In front of a lot of people. Yes. I felt violated.

[brewens]

197. I worked with a guy that was notorious for inappropriate touching.

We finally got rid of him. He was classic. According to him he was just from a family of affectionate huggers. It was only every one of the attractive women we worked with that had that complaint though. The exception were a couple of attractive women that are supervisors that he didn't dare pull that crap with.
He worked on a blood center bus at blood drives and really creeped the women out. Any time he could rub against them he would. I'm bigger than he is and I can always squeeze by without doing that and I turn my back if it's really tight. He would actually turn to face them and make them squeeze by when he could have gotten further out of the way.
A university student complained about a phlebotomist touching her leg. It was anonymous and he wasn't specifically named or described but he made a comment to her that was one of his favorite sayings that she reported. One of the big bosses questioned all the guys that it could have been and I blew the whistle on him over the comment. It was a dead giveaway. That was not enough to get him fired though. He left for other reasons but it is enough that he won't be rehired.
He got away with it because he was such a shameless kiss ass and was in good with upper level management at our HQ. That and his minority status and a few other things made the offended women reluctant to turn him in.

[iamthebandfanman]

199. i think every girl in every relationship

ive ever been in said there was some sort of sexual abuse in their past.

its horrifying.

[seabeyond]

201. thank you for being honest. that is a way in which men become aware of it.

i understand how hard it would be to see when outside the box. not experiencing and something women hold pretty close.

[maryf]

203. Voted before I saw the combo

Actually, I should be all of the above...

[varelse]

204. I fall into 2 categories

The person who attempted to rape me threatened me with a knife to convince me to cooperate. It didn't work. My own maternal grandfather assaulted me when I was 12 (but he wasn't the only child molester to "make contact" with me).

And I cannot count the number of times I have been stalked and/or harrassed at school, at work, or just while out and about minding my own business.

[azygous]

206. All women grow up being prey

And then learning from an early age what it means, and each copes in their own way with it. Men are often surprised when they hear this, as they have no concept what it means to be prey as a part of living your life.

[scarletwoman]

243. You've hit upon the essence, well said.

To be a female is to grow up knowing that throughout your entire life you are marked, that at any random moment you can be subjected to anything from verbal indigities to outright violence based on nothing but the fact that you are female.

sw

[Hekate]

381. Yes. It circumscribes your life in a thousand internalized ways.

[kpete]

210. sad isn't it?

all of the above...
sick world, kp

[suffragette]

216. Yes, it certainly is

And same here.

[seabeyond]

220. kpete, becasue of the pete i always thought you were a guy

and your posts are pretting non gender. isnt that something. all these years i have been reading you, picturing you as a guy thalking. that is funny. i never had reason to chek your gender.

ah ha

well, learn something new.

[grahamhgreen]

255. +1

[Rozlee]

214. Had all of them. All but one was even government sanctioned.

I was in the Army in a medical unit attached to an Airborne Division back in the 80s. Actually, what did I expect? The Army told me they could put me through school. They didn't tell me I'd have to run through a gauntlet to do it. I was sexually assaulted as a teen-ager and badly beaten, but managed to escaped before penetration. But, the daily, weekly, monthly, yearly grind of never-ending harassment in the military was even more traumatic. I saw improvement when I was medically discharged in the 2000s. My daughter's a Coast Guard Reservist that was activated for a six month stint in Basra in Iraq. She said that sexual harassment in the military is rigidly monitored and it's laws strictly enforced these days--until she was activated and went to Iraq. She said that once in a war zone, all bets were off and that the seamen and soldiers descended back into Neanderthals with the male chain of command either totally indifferent to their actions or even indulgent. I can believe it. I saw the change in personality male soldiers displayed just going from working on post to being assigned to field duty. The military took several leaps forward in it's attitude toward sexual harassment during the 90s and 2000s. Now, with this war time aggressive mentality, they've shot back to being Troglodytes. I can only imagine how these soldiers are going to act out to their wives, girlfriends or other women they come accross in the future. God help me, I only wanted to afford college. And I told my baby that things were different nowadays; and that the Coast Guard was the most evolved of all the services.

[NikolaC]

218. All of the Above

and some days I still have issues trying to cope (anniversaries of the assaults ususally) even though I am married to wonderful person and will be 40 in a couple of months. There are good days and some not so good.

[DesertDiamond]

219. I didn't realize I could only choose one. Can I resind my sexually harassed and change it to

"Other - Combination"?

[amyrose2712]

224. I voted 1, until I read the comments,

Just remembered a 20ish year old carpenter grabbed my ass at 10. So I'll have to add 2.

[liquid diamond]

225. What is the point of this poll?

[seabeyond]

228. we are being told by a pretty significant group of male, that what women expereince, is not what

they really are experiencing. a poll shows the expanse of the issue for us. that it is not so isolated as the men are telling us women, that experience. that maybe a male would say wtf, i didnt realize. and maybe pay a bet more attention to his surroundings and what is going on. maybe help the issue along a little, so women do a little better on this issue.

[liquid diamond]

238. Thanks for your intelligent reply seabeyond.

I expected some smart ass response, but I'm being serious here. If women say the are sexually harassed often, I believe them. I wouldn't need a poll as evidence.

[seabeyond]

240. ah, ....

and thanks.

[peace frog]

226. Back in the mid-70s

as a young woman working my first full-time job, I had a boss who was unashamedly blatant about his sexual harrassment. Back then sexual harrassment was something that "went with the employment territory" and we were expected to tolerate it in those unelightened times. Anyway, we worked in a large room full of mostly young women, all seated at individual desks with currency counting machines attached. This yahoo manager would walk up very close to the seated young lady he wished to ogle, as she was pushing currency through the counting machine, and stare straight down her shirt or up her skirt, whichever offered the best view. He would stand there staring for long periods of time, or until the woman moved from the counting machine to her desk and he would slither off to find his next victim. In another smooth move, he would carry a yardstick and, as a young lady in a skirt would walk past, he would use the yardstick to lift her skirt for a "better look at the goods". This creep was married with children, mind you. You could say morale was not tip-top due to his slimy behavior, but there was an unending supply of young women available to take these jobs so he never lacked for fantasy-inducing opportunities.

Funny thing is, this douchebag did lose his job eventually but it was not because of sexual harrassment. His departments were involved in a massive theft scandal, some of which he knew about and presumably participated in, if only at a distance. Good riddance! There was much rejoicing in Mudville that day, you may be certain! And his replacement was a cool woman, to boot.

[CLANG]

254. I just want to make one comment

People that would do these things have serious mental issues, and should be dealt with decisively. Saying that, I think it only fair to point out that because 93% of the polls respondents have been molested in some way or another, it doesn't mean that 93% of men are doing these horrible things. I think these men are serial offenders and their attitudes towards women makes the serial nature of these attacks likely to continue until they are caught and treated harshly by the law.

The vast majority of men do not do these things. Granted, whether it be 5% or 25% of all men that have engaged in these barbaric acts, the majority of men respect and care for the well-being of women and human beings in general.

I love the idea of crossing the street to avoid undue mental distress for women that may have been victimized in the past or are afraid they will be. Since I'm not normally thinking of rape and molestation, it hadn't occurred to me, but from now on I will remember to do what I can to be aware of the fear of a woman when I am walking behind her alone at night,and make an attempt to alleviate it.

I'm actually shocked that so many women have had to suffer these situations.

[seabeyond]

257. love yas.... as i got toward the end of your post. was already gonna post cause of beginning of

your post.... but was feeling the love so strongly, lol, i had to yell out the love yas, first.

i agree. i have been around lots of guys. even the "pig" male, manly man, macho male, i KNOW he would be there for me always, and on my side ect... i haev pig male friends. lvoe them dearly, and still they are pig male. hey... two brothers and a father. i understand them. then most of my male friends are good ole guys. and they too are there for women. beyond the pig male. cause they are not that. lol lol. (i am going to get in soooo much trouble).

the men that do this for dominance and humiliation are in their own little catagory. and in the pst, males were much better putting them in their place. i dont think so much now. and that is why i think this subject is so important being discussed

but the love yas part???? i, too, had never thought about the man being conscious of walking behind woman, and simply crossing the street in understanding. i have heard men bitch about the woman being fearful of him and daring to cross street. what an insult to him. because she feared. that never made sense. to take it a step beyond, adn the male simply understand the reality, adn have a solution to that fear himself.... i LOVE it.

and then you embrace.

made my heart feel good

thanks.

[CLANG]

264. Thank you! Peace be upon you.

[Odin2005]

262. Social conditioning is not mental illness.

Dismissing these people are mentally ill is just another example of refusing to come to grips with misogyny and the attitude of male entitlement to sex. Once you realize that most rapists are not "monsters" but "normal people", like the fucker that raped my friend, is when you will fully get it.

[CLANG]

267. No matter what I say there is always someone willing to misinterpret

Social conditioning can create mentally healthy individuals and it can also create mentally unhealthy individuals. Men that have an attitude of "male entitlement to sex" are mentally ill. Rapists are NOT normal people. Rape is NOT normal. It is a deviant and abnormal attack. That's why we put them in prison and label them forever as sexual deviants. By calling rapists "normal people" you denigrate and slander the people that really are normal. Rapists are abnormal. They are sick. And you are doing the cause of woman's safety a great disservice by your lumping rapists together with all men.

[seabeyond]

269. what happens when society makes rape a norm. and entertainment

what happens when society dehumanizes women and caricatures the male sexual prowess to all encompassing to the point of entitlement? could rape then become an acceptable in many young mens mind, without them being "bad" men. when there is neither the parental nor societal guidance of right and wrong in rape.

when male is encourage an rewarded to get a girl drunk to hit her. how far down the line is the drug to put in a drink. after all, you are really not hurting her, ..... much.

i mean really, in looking at it today, i wonder if because of the date part of rape, rape hasn't lost some of its horridness.

playng and exploring thought. this is not a post where i am seeing things as they are, of factual information. just exploring thought, with what you brought up.

[Odin2005]

273. I'm sure most date-rapists don't think what they are doing is rape.

because they have been conditioned by our society to think like they are entitled to sex. It is much like how marital rape used to be considered an oxymoron because it was thought that a man had a "right" to have sex with his wife.

[Odin2005]

271. You have just proved my point.

Sad how my fellow men feel threatened when asked to come to grips with the misogyny in our society. I am not blaming or attacking you personally, it's a societal problem.

[raccoon]

299. +1000. It's not mental illness, it's the result of being raised in a misogynistic society.

Well said, Odin! :hi:

[Odin2005]

309. Thanks!

The notion that "rapist = sick crazy monster" is a cop-out from having to THINK about the problem of misogyny in our society. It drives me crazy.

[eyeofdelphi]

288. you're right CLANG

there probably aren't vast numbers of men doing these things but several repeat offenders. i found out later, talking amongst friends, that the guy that raped me had raped at least 7 other women that i knew within the last year. so it does help to see it in that perspective and know not every male is out to be a jackass. it's just hard to identify the ones that are.

[CLANG]

366. Thank you, eod!

[LostinVA]

395. Good post, except for one thing

Men who do these things usually do NOT have serious mental issues. They are completely sane. They are sociopaths, which is a personality disorder, not a mental illness, and can't be "cured" in anyway. Not being snarky at all. Like I said -- good post.

[CLANG]

401. I guess it's just a matter of semantics

To me, anyone that would rape another human being has some serious mental problems. I never said they were "insane".

[GreenEyedLefty]

260. I was sexually harrassed at every job I ever had.

Especially in my teens and 20s. No charges were filed but I did stand up for myself. Usually it only happened once.

I'm now pushing 40 and doing very well for myself. I never let those things intimidate or define me.

[Cherchez la Femme]

261. Both #1 & #2, Luckily not #3 but only because,

as in #1 & #2 of my three physical sexual assaults I ran,

fast

and then hid!

It's amazing how loud ones stressed, adrenaline-driven breathing seems to be
or is
when trying to silently avoid detection whilst crouching up on, with feet on the toilet seat & the stall door shut, in an empty Men's bathroom (I figured that would be the last place in the empty School Hall, which he'd chased me into from the quad, he'd hopefully look -- Thank Goddess the building was unlocked!)
especially while you hear your predator's footsteps pacing up & down outside in the hall.


And the third time I was lucky enough to have an acquaintance/friend also present who didn't agree with, and therefore deterred, his friends brilliant idea of forcing upon me sodomy and rape
--just a nice little mini gang-bang!


But to even mention these unpleasant circumstances displeases men here,
because it's obvious when mentioning such attacks one is also accusing THEM!
It's SO unfair of us!

:eyes: :puke:

[Cherchez la Femme]

311. Wow. Just realized even *I* downgraded my own sexual assaults!

Because as I said that my assaulters "'didn't get very far'";
meaning that because I considered since they weren't (yet, before I quickly skedaddled) able to reach under and grab my naked flesh
--i.e. under my clothes and 'in areas covered by a bathing suit' (or otherwise)--
even though their obvious intent was to have sexual intercourse with me with or without my consent
and even though they DID lay hands upon me aggressively in an attempt to control
--molest, and worse!-- me,
I chalked it up to mere sexual harassment!


I am utterly astonished.
In fact I'm quite chagrined & upset with myself.


In the 3rd instance I correctly considered it Sexual Assault because one night, while we were sitting around my living room just after Last Call to continue what I <[i>thought)was a convivial, enjoyable time which I <[i>thought) we were having
--this at the pub I had been going to for well over a dozen years and where I had many friends (not a gay bar, if that should make a difference, in fact no-one there even knew I was gay)

the one guy quickly got up from the sofa, stood directly in front of my seated form, whipped out his dick and attempted to stuff it in my mouth.



Do you guys see how (at least one) feminist(s);
even those who are very socially & politically active and outspoken regarding Women's
--heck, Human!--
Rights;
...can you guys comprehend how even some of us, against our will and beliefs,
subconsciously, subliminally agree with and are influenced by the insidious mitigation and propaganda/propagation of the long-standing meme of the poor, put-upon, coerced, over-accused (if not downright innocent) male?


If, at least at the minimum those of you who took me to task in Mr. Scorpio's thread don't grok the shockingness of this yet

--I still am completely aghast at myself, and will remain incredulous, confused and disappointed in myself probably until my dying day--

please honestly, carefully, seriously consider this.

[scarletwoman]

329. Just want to acknowledge your post - your moment of self-revelation - thank you.

Thank you for pointing out how our minds are colonized by the pervasiveness of misogyny in our society. Well done!

sw

[Cherchez la Femme]

390. Thank you

helps a tiny bit, as I still am SO upset with myself

--but any amelioration at all from a fellow Human Being does indeed help!

:hug:

[Skelly]

265. A funny thing happened on the way to the end.

I first read this post and voted with the #1...having thought I had never been assaulted physically, just harassed. It wasn't until I had read through the many posts that I remembered, I HAD been, what some would consider, "assaulted". But, because it was done by a woman (and I am a woman), it did not immediately come to mind. So, facing my own bias (that men are the perpetrators of such actions), I have to wonder how much my own gender is guilty, especially when WE are the ones in a position of power (as was the female who assaulted me)?
I agree, I think this happens TO many WOMEN on a daily basis. However, should the balance of power shift TO women, could the same thing occur to where some generations down the road, this poll would have the same results but be prefaced with, "As a Man Have you Ever Been..."?
And more importantly, if this is a possibility, how do we keep it from happening?

[Chalco]

270. I'm all of the above

I marked the first one by mistake.

[AtheistCrusader]

276. Abort rapists.

I don't care how old they are.

[ckwalker1984]

279. This isn't a scientific poll...but...

...I do find it troubling nonetheless. Sadly, we'll be living in a world where women will be treated as second-best for years to come -- unless we do something to change it.

[felix_numinous]

281. all of the above

since the age of 5 I have known about the abuse of power.

[blue_roses_lib]

296. ...

Me too.

:hug:

[felix_numinous]

282. dup

strange computer connection here in the boonies

[RoseMead]

284. Two categories for me: harassment and statutory rape

I was harassed by at least 5 or six guys during high school and college. The one in high school was an ongoing situation.

The statutory was with two different men, when I was between the ages of 12 and 17.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

285. "Rape" is not specific enough.

"Rape" covers both being jumped in an alley and forcibly penetrated, and drugged/plied with alcohol until unable to resist/ dispossessed of normal judgment. While these offenses are equivalent in the eyes of the law, they are very different circumstances. I don't believe the majority of men guilty of date rape think of themselves as rapists. If we're trying to raise consciousness, it's helpful to know more specifically what occurred.

[demmiblue]

291. Bullshit.

:puke:

[ChadwickHenryWard]

298. Well argued.

[scarletwoman]

300. self-delete

[scarletwoman]

292. "Rape" is plenty specific. It means sexual penetration without consent, PERIOD.

I don't give a shit if a PERPETRATOR doesn't think he's guilty of rape, if his victim didn't give consent it's RAPE.

When you get THAT through your head, THEN your consciousness will be raised.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

302. It's not uncommon

for men my age to think that it's okay if you get the girl trashed beforehand. Legally, of course, consent is assumed to be withheld until explicitly given; if the victim is unable to give consent, it's automatically rape. Date rapists, of course, take just the opposite view - that if a woman is unable to say no, she's free game. As I said earlier, the law treats that just the same as a forcible rape - and that's quite appropriate. The criminal penalty for one should be exactly the criminal penalty for the other. But I have to disagree that the mindset of the perpetrator does not matter. I daresay there are fewer men willing to assault a strange woman on the street and have his way with her than there are willing, through subtler means, to violate a woman. Perhaps if the perpetrators viewed their actions differently, some number might refrain from their crimes. A huge number of people are already eager to blame the woman - men and women both - as "wanting it" or "asking for it." This may go some way toward explaining the bizarre - to me, at least - phenomenon of victims' guilt.

And that's what I mean by "raising consciousness." It has to do with the perception of the crime - it has to do with the sense of entitlement, the sense of blame or fault, the moral turpitude of the action. Perception goes a long way in an individual's decision to commit a crime.

[scarletwoman]

306. I don't find anything you say to be a compelling argument against emphasizing the fact

that rape is rape, period.

Why shouldn't perpetrators of "date rape" have their noses pressed into this fact? It's a clear bright line -- if a woman doesn't consent to have sex with you, then you may NOT have sex with her. No ifs, ands, or buts.

sw

[uppityperson]

322. forcing sex by using a knife at the throat or drugging someone is rape and NOT ok. You seriously

believe drugging someone is ok? Seriously? Drugging someone so the person cannot deny consent is comparable to holding a knife to someone's throat so they cannot deny consent.

"the mindset of the perpetrator" is the same in both these cases.

"the perception of the crime - it has to do with the sense of entitlement, the sense of blame or fault, the moral turpitude of the action. Perception goes a long way in an individual's decision to commit a crime."

NO ONE is entitled to force sex on anyone else. Period. There is no entitlement. Period. The morality of forcing sex through threatened violence and the morality of forcing sex through drugging someone are both immoral. Period.

[readmoreoften]

359. Then men your age are rationalizing rape, not something other than rape.

And you need to not make arguments about "the different types of rape" which will only give them further justification. Whether its in an alley with a stranger or on a date--it's rape.

[LostinVA]

402. My father is almost 66 and does NOT think the way you do

:wtf:

[seabeyond]

294. i teach my teen boys now, ... be sure the female is enthusiastic, not

a simple consent. for both my sons and the girls sake.

maybe we ought teach our boys what rape is.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

303. As I get older,

I often marvel at what parents don't teach their kids about how to behave. The worst of it, of course, is failure to teach sons how to treat women. Maybe it's my naturally courteous demeanor, or maybe it's because my parents were never afraid to tell me what's what, but whenever I hear guys my age talk to, or talk about, women, it's almost as though they don't think she's human.

[seabeyond]

308. this is exactly the point and where we have gone

men could not do so many of the things they do, if they actually saw the female as human. gotta dehumanize her and we are doing such a good job at it. our young girls are helping. they to are being conditioned along with our boys.

i dont know how old you are, but back in my day... bah hahaha, in our social environment, there was a respect code taught to our boys about the girls. and certainly to the older. it is amazing what i will her a kid say about older people, now. we would not have even thought.

i believe though that my generation was very selfish. we were the beginnings of the freedoms attained from the 60's, doing teens in 70's and early 80's. we know better, but we are not teaching our children to know better.

[chrisa]

404. Women are refered to as "things," or described by parts of their body.

We're a very abnormal society.

[joshcryer]

374. Very nice, good thing to teach them.

I'd also suggest that they not have sexual experiences while drinking or doing other drugs, just so all parties are clear headed.

[seabeyond]

382. we have discussed it. nt

[Odin2005]

310. rape is rape.

there is no moral difference.

[Liquorice]

312. The term "date rape" doesn't mean that the rapist drugged/plied the victim with

alcohol until unable to resist. Date rape just means that the rapist knew the woman, and perhaps was on a date with her when he raped her. It can still be a very violent rape in which the victim aggressively resists.

[uppityperson]

318. What's the difference between those 2? Both are acts of violence, both force

sex upon women. It doesn't matter if a knife was held to her throat or she was drugged and unable to resist. Both are rape, both are very very very wrong.

[Hello_Kitty]

319. IOW, you want details. eom

[uncommon]

398. They are the same. They are acts of violence using sex as a weapon.

Rape is rape, whether it is committed by a stranger or a husband.

[LostinVA]

403. WTF

[potassiumnitrate]

286. This is an online unscientific poll with no real purpose

How do we know the vast majority of these votes are not lies, or even from women at all? I could easily vote here, you know.

[demmiblue]

290. You probably did!

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

295. again pota... not a single post of yours has been female friendly. everyone has had insult

to women

not ONE post has not insulted women

[SeattleGirl]

304. Wow, perpetrating the meme that most women are lying about

being raped, harassed, abused, etc.

You really don't have any respect for women, do you?

[MrScorpio]

305. Wow, man, you REALLY know how to step in it, don't you?

Dance away

[uppityperson]

323. The vast majority of these votes are lies or are from men. Right.

You are something.

[seabeyond]

325. actually

the none of the above i would say are a good 95% from men. i cannot imagine there is one woman that has not experienced at the least.... verbal harrassment.

[lukasahero]

330. I have to admit

that's what I'm thinking as well. I've been thinking all day I really can't believe there's this # of women who haven't at least been cat-called. It started when I was 13 and still looked mostly like a boy...

[bettyellen]

385. i wish skinner could take a peak at those no votes and tell us how many were men!

[nolabear]

326. Don't you have any idea what goes on in the world? Warning: Rant to follow.

First, let me concede right out of the gate that most men are decent human beings and under normal, sober, non-pack-reinforced circumstances wouldn't do any of the things the poll lists. I believe most wouldn't do it even while not sober and not caught up in pack mentality.

But if you are a male then you've never been in an all-female gathering and heard the stories. I have. I've led therapy groups, been in all woman book groups, was in a mother's support group, have been in classes and gyms where women only were there, have just got female friends galore, and I have to tell you, it is the RARE woman who has not been sexually harrassed in some significant way, and it happens all too damned often before they even ARE women. Ask this question in a gathering of womwn and you get a sort of "Well DUH" response that is rather heartbreaking to see.

The first time a man exposed himself to me I was probably ten and had my five year old sister with me. I am not alone. I had a math teacher who called all the girls "Miss" and rubbed up against us in class. You didn't GO into the book room when he was there. We were like deer in the headlights; we were in junior high and didn't know what the hell to do. God help me, I lived near a shipyard and walking down the street was a study in hell. Yes, it was years ago and thank everything that's holy it's better now. But it still happens. Just a few days ago I actually heard a man drive by and shout an obscene, suggestive remark to a young woman who was trying to help someone who was ill on the sidewalk.

So I don't care how "unscientific" this poll is; it's a real, real problem. It has happened to your mother. It has happened to your beloved. If you have a daughter it will happen to her. It's a hard world in which to be female in a way that it's just not for you guys, and you'd be a LOT more helpful if you'd play for the good guys and give us a little bloody respect and compassion!

[seabeyond]

328. see those 96 posts... they are all

insulting women. he doesnt care adn is a waste of time.

[potassiumnitrate]

336. You repeating that over and over again doesn't make it true, you know

[seabeyond]

344. ever watch the fockers.... i got my eyes on you.... nt

[scarletwoman]

345. You're not the only one. nt

[seabeyond]

347. .

:fistbump:

[Name removed]

368. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

369. Oh, HIM, that one pisses me off to no end.

[seabeyond]

383. yup. nt

[scarletwoman]

334. Beautifully said! Righteous rant! Thank you!

As post #206 said so eloquently, we women all grow up knowing we are prey. ALL of us.

How many men can actually understand what it's like to go through life knowing you are prey? It never ends, even 90 year women are raped.

You are never free of the knowledge that just a random turn of fate will make you into a victim of some man's malevolence, of some man's hatred for your gender, of some man's belief that you are less than human -- that you have no right to respect or dignity or sovereignty over your own body.

sw

[nolabear]

338. Makes your tagline all the more poignant. Teach your children well, and love those little boys.

I do think all those things, harrassment, rape, etc. come from a place of pain, and I'm sorry for the pain. But it doesn't mean I'm not furious too, as much for the cold discounting that lets it go on and on as for the hot disregard for the humanity of women.

And part of the tragedy is that a kind, loving, respectful man is just the most wonderful thing! Wish they all had been taught that and felt it to their bones.

[scarletwoman]

343. I'm the mother of two sons, now grown men. I did my best in raising them.

I know they are not nor will ever be misogynists. Both are partnered with incredibly strong, vibrant, creative, and free-spirited young women.

They wouldn't dream of seeing any female as a lesser human, or as property or chattel.

I consider my sons to be my humble contribution to the evolution of society. :)

sw

[Odin2005]

352. +1,000,000

[Curmudgeoness]

399. Thank you for saying it so well. I am also bewildered

by how many men are demeaning the women here.

[chrisa]

405. So. Neither is any poll on DU. What's your point?

Nevermind. He's been banned from posting.

[uppityperson]

411. Yay!!!!!!

[lukasahero]

413. It's about time

Sheesh. :)

[blue_roses_lib]

293. I picked harassment

Before I realized you could only pick one. Myself: Date rape and incest.


K+R for posting this.

:hug:

[quakerboy]

355. I have 2 directions of thought on this.

The poll initially inspired me to ask my wife. I voted her answer. She has been harassed on public transport, but fortunately no more than that. She has had to be very forceful in rebuffing unwanted advances in previous relationships, from boys who assumed that no didn't mean no.

But then I started thinking about it. As a woman, I have been harassed. Me, my testosterone laden male, naturally penis equipped personal self has been harassed as a woman.

To explain, I have long blond hair. And Ive gotten a few "hey baby" type comments purely based on that, from men who assumed long well kept blond hair meant woman.

For me, they universally shut the hell up as soon as I turn around and become a bearded male who generally outweighs them significantly. I can only imagine what the hell they are thinking before that. I mean, I am told I've got a nice ass, but I cant imagine anyone looks at me from behind and thinks "what a beauty she must be". Which makes me wonder what the reasoning, or unreasoning behind it is. And I have no experience of what women experience after that moment.

[seabeyond]

356. interesting. first, thanks that this post had you talk to your wife. good on you.

that says something. and i think that is one of the bigger things about this issue. awareness

and secondly, how interesting and what a hoot. you significantly bigger, tells me it wasnt your "figure" regardless of nice ass, that got you the hey babe.

what is it about?

it is about showing a dominance and humiliation..... to a female. intimidation possibly. to feel superior. that simple

it is nothing about finding a woman attractive, or being interested, .... obvious, per your hey babe

funny. and thanks for the story

i think that is why i get so pissed now. i am much older. i get it. and i am not intimidated. i glare.... i am OLD and i still get it. so, it isnt about interest. it is about putting in place.

[quakerboy]

357. I have discussed this with her in the past

Although not in a direct question form as I did today.

I have wondered what was behind the thought. On the one hand, it seems absurd that it would be sex. But I think, oddly enough, that it may be at least somewhat about that. Ive known too many "men" who thought that a larger woman was "easier prey", a more sure "Score" due to self esteem. And I have noticed that the ones who call out at me tend to be little men. The type that I out mass 3 to 1, rather than my more usual 2:1 for your average guy on the street.

Ive thought about stopping and asking one about it. However, I have a feeling that the intimidation factor of me turning and actually trying to engage to them might end in some sort of violence. Scared people do stupid things. Scared embarrassed people even stupider.

[seabeyond]

358. i hadnt thought about that perspective. but

that is funny.... lol

it would be interesting to know. i hear you on intimidated embarrassed. ah ha. next time, swing the hip a bet and see what you catch, ask, and let us know.

ah ha... lol. oh.... so sad.

[Odin2005]

370. That is hilarious and sad at the same time.

Sounds like a kind of sick animalistic dominance behavior. Very immature.

[Name removed]

376. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

389. Please don't use the term retard as an insult.

[joshcryer]

375. Heh, I've been harassed as a straight male, by gay men.

I quite enjoyed it on the occasions that it has happened. I, however, cannot testify to how I might feel if it were a continual thing.

FYI, most of these leering types are just being asses, they don't actually mean to rape someone or fuck someone or actually do *anything at all* to someone. I work construction and hang out with these types of idiots *all the time*, they've never actually leered at anyone to my recollection (we're pretty much in the middle of nowhere) but I imagine they might with how lurid their daily discussions are.

Never felt the need to be their 'buddies' off work.

[quakerboy]

387. Which matters very little, in the long run

"FYI, most of these leering types are just being asses, they don't actually mean to rape someone or fuck someone or actually do *anything at all* to someone"

Which matters very little when it comes down to the reality of what happens. On several levels.

First, and most apparent to me, is that of the mental health of the one being harassed. If you get it once, you might just dismiss it as "one of those things" but if it happens on a regular basis, especially if your personal experience leads you to believe that one level of interaction leads to another. I had a college roommate who had regular issues with harassment. Anytime she went downtown. And its not exactly a super dangerous area, Ive walked it many a time in the wee hours of the morning, with never an issue. She however was slender and "stacked". And conservatively dressed, I might add, not trying to attract any attention. She got the "shout outs" when she was with a group of us. When she was alone, she got followed, literally followed. She had to pull the mace more than once to get people to back off. Now, Would you tell her most guys don't "actually mean" to do anything to her? Her personal experience would belie your assertion, and those calls would continue to make her feel unsafe purely for stepping foot out in the world.

Second, especially in such as you have mentioned, mob mentality is an ugly things. Ive seen groups that went from good intentions to very negative outcomes quite rapidly. I was even in one once. In our case, we only went as far as pant-sing an annoying young man who deserved better from a group that was supposed to be role models and friends. But it could have easily gotten beyond that. I will never forget that experience, and the lessons I learned from it.

Third: pride, stupidity and power. Men have pride. People as a whole have stupidity, and approximately half are of below average intelligence. And in the modern era, we most all feel a lack of power. This is a rough combination. You do not know what your construction buddies would do if it was just them and a pretty gal in an alley. Or, more likely, in a bar, with a hair too much to drink. Or on a date. You know what they are willing to say, in public, in a "safe" environment.

Anyway, you enjoy your harassment. There's something in the knowledge that you can "shut it off" that I believe makes a big difference. Most women do not have that opportunity. In fact, even trying to confront what they do not want invokes the second and third, to put their person in even greater danger.

[Quantess]

360. Sexual Harrassment was the order of the day when I lived in San Francisco, in the Mission District.

For one thing, the Hispanics were merciless with their taunting. Most of the time, I was just a student carrying books back and forth to SFSU, trying to mind my own business, but they still chose to jump in my path and say "mamacita" and made smacking noises. Other times, I tried to be a woman schlepping groceries, trying to mind my own business, but I still got gross sexual harrassment.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

419. I went to high school in the Mission --

wore the little Catholic school uniform and I was the recipient of the behavior you described. :puke: The leering and the kissey noises just made me crazy. I could have very easily came away with the prejudice view that Latino men were disgusting pigs but I was thankful to have many fine Latino male friends that showed me it was just those particular men who were disgusting pigs.

[SeattleGirl]

364. I've experienced all but rape.

I was almost raped twice, but thankfully, neither man was able to follow through, because there were other people close by.

Once, when I was working in a fast food joint, I was pouring coffee for the manager of all of the places, and for the manager of where I worked. Sumbitch reached his hand up the back of my uniform and grabbed my ass. He got a lap full of coffee for his efforts.

Another time, I was working for an architect, and he used to come up behind me when I was in the drawings room, and push up against by backside.

I once worked in a hospital in the Building Management department, and one of the men I worked with used to say the most vile things to me.

At another place I worked, I had a co-worker who was very tall. He used to come up behind me while I was sitting at my desk, get right up next to the back of my chair, and lean over me, basically pushing me into my desk. I did tell him that if he ever did that again, I'd report him to the owner. And if he ever did it again to the receptionist, I'd also report him. He stopped.

Several months ago, a man to whom I refused to give any money to outside of a store, got really pissed off and asked me how I'd like to feel his dick up my ass.

I've had more than one man talk to my breasts as opposed to looking me in the eyes. I finally decided to combat that by staring at their crotch. That usually backs them off real quick.

One time, a man followed me as I walked home, because in the store we had both been in, he was standing WAY too close to me, and I asked him to please step back. I heard him walking behind me, and while I was scared, I stopped, turned around, and yelled at him, "What the fuck do YOU want?" He turned around and walked away.

I have file boxes full of memories in my mind of things like this that have happened to me. Sometimes I have been able to handle it (and I've gotten much better at it the older I've gotten), and sometimes I'm so taken aback, I can't seem to respond at all.

It is NOT safe being a female. I don't walk around in fear all the time; in fact, I don't walk around in fear at all, but I am very aware of my surroundings, and of the people in them.

[HEyHEY]

380. It's horrid in the workplace where I live

Creepy old school 50s kinda shit. When one of the girls from Canada left, the boss told her;

"I got so many compliments for hiring you, everyone loves to see a pretty blonde girl in the office, you can come back any time."

Sadly, here in Beijing, you ain't getting anywhere bringing that to a tribunal, cause they don't exist.

[MellowDem]

396. I can't post polls, but I'd really like to see a male version of this...

not to prove a point or anything. But I've never seen a poll done for males on this and I think it would be an interesting question.

[LostinVA]

397. A Tale of Two Men

Both who worked in the Mailroom of someplace I used to work.

Guy #1: Total flirt, total pig. He would often make inappropriate jokes.

Guy #2: Very self-effacing, solicitous, polite.


Guess which one creeped out almost ALL of the women who worked there, and who had gotten complaints against him? Guy #2.

Guy #1 was a pig, but strangely enough liked and respected women, and would do anything to help you, and I also mean backing you up if other guys were jerks when you went into the Mailroom. A very nice guy, raised in a very macho community. As soon as you called him on being a pig (ie "Okay, knowck it off -- you crossed teh line a bit there"), he apologized, and actually meant. We wound up being decently close, even more so after he found out I was gay.

Guy #2 was very stalkerish,m and would take a smile and a hello as license to invade your space, come unasked into your office and stand veeeeeeery close to you and ask very personal questions. He'd stare, and say things like, "I noticed you have a dent in your car." I mean, wtf???? A very creepy vibe. He very, very much reminded me of the guy who killed all those women in the gym in PA last year. He used to rant in the breakroom about how women weren't interested in him.

I really don't have a point with this, just that men have to trust women on this. Alot of men I worked with didn't get why most women at the company (and, I'm talking about 100+ women) didn't like Guy #2 at all, but did like Guy #1. It was all, "Guy #2 is a nice guy -- I thought women liked a nice guy? No wonder men are so confused by women."

[seabeyond]

400. i know lots of guy #1. lol. and love some of them too. i hear ya.

i do the same with them, and they understand me well. they like me too, regardless of if i am in their face. there is that respect.

it is not all black and white. it is not a conservative or liberal, really as much as some may want to believe. i would go to many many conservative males if i needed help, and htey would be there.

it is not simple.

and a lot is on feel

[MrScorpio]

407. You know what the weird thing is?

That some of my detractors have accused me of being a hypocrite because I'm just as potty mouthed as all of the other people who are potty mouthed in the Lounge. That includes several of the women posters.

It's a game that everyone plays, but somehow, certain people just can't seem to recognize even some of the WOMEN in those LOUNGE threads were the ones who INITIATED some of the potty mouthed language and others participated openly in other threads without being offended at all.

God forbid that friends who are familiar with one other talk openly about anything that's on their minds about stuff... Like, ya know, SEX.

But it is in NO way equivalent to some asshole harassing a woman in the street THAT THEY DON'T KNOW with rude, sexually explicit, insulting and threatening language.

If someone can't tell the difference then they have a LONG way to go to grow up.

[chrisa]

406. Guy 2 is much worse, imo.

I don't think guy 2 is very polite, because getting into someone's personal space is very intimidating. Staring at somebody can also be a hostile move. I can see why guy 2 is the less liked, because guy 1 is probably more comfortable to be around, while you really don't know what guy 2 is thinking half of the time. The "women aren't interested in me!" rants also make it seem like he's a narcissist, but I'm not sure if you agree with any of this. No offense meant by this or anything.

[Arugula Latte]

409. Starting at the age of 12 I was occasionally grabbed, groped and verbally harassed.

[TwilightGardener]

412. Just harassed, back when I was younger--asshole strangers on the bus and street.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

417. Sexual harrassed and assaulted (not raped) --

Thank you for doing this! I often think that men have no idea what we face on a sometimes daily basis. From men rubbing their erections against you on the bus to the unwanted sexual comments to having to be vigilant about your dress/location/habits.

I had a friend tell me how much he loves to do his housework in the nude, blinds be damned, and suggested I try it sometimes. I told him I wouldn't ever dream of doing something like that because because I could potentially be seen by neighbors and it could endanger me. He honestly could not get why I thought that. His attitude was a very puzzled, "So what if they see you?"

They just tend not to get it.