What if these 2 theories are Not Only True, But Have Converged??

[Blackhatjack]

Theory # 1 - Bush approved the Domestic Wiretapping of American Citizens with an Executive Order to keep it secret from Congress and the public.

Theory # 2 - There is more than one secret surveillance program that Bush has authorized by Executive Order, and it is functioning today without Congress' and the public's knowledge. (See Gonzales' recent testimony).

Convergence - Bush officials have been listening in on communications of members of Congress involved in investigating this Administration, AND there is another surveillance program being used to acquire all kinds of information, personal and political, on Members of Congress and the Public.

There may be more, but there is ample evidence to show that all of the 'accidental disclosures' of private information(including SSN, DOB, drivers license numbers, etc.), and the stolen laptops with millions of personal records, would give such a secret program the information needed to populate a secret database for the purpose of obtaining information on those opposing this Administration's policies.

The program? THe old "total information awareness" program that was banned by Congress, but allegedly has been renamed and moved to another location and funded in the 'black funding' portion of the Defense Budget.

Bush and the NeoCons may be listening in on everything Congress is doing to investigate the massive corruption in this Administration --and it would not be far off to imagine that certain members of Congress could be blackmailed into opposing further investigation of this Administration.

It also would make it infinitely easier to not only infiltrate anti-war, anti-Repub groups, AND to fix upcoming elections by suppressing these groups and minorities at the polls using this information.

I am not alleging the evidence has been unearthed or obtained to prove this, but it falls within the realm of possibility based upon the evidence we have seen and the actions of this Administration observed so far.

[Richard Steele]

1. Given who we're dealing with here, I'd be surprised if they aren't.

We've seen time and again that these people have no scruples,
no moral center, no respect for the rule of law...

These people will do anything that they see as being to their
selfish personal advantage. Not just "anything they can get
away with"....I mean absolutely ANYTHING.

[ThomWV]

2. Washington Journal This Morning

At about the 1 hour mark they had a lady Congressional critter on there - Wilson, maybe? - who was a Republican who was on an intelligence Committee. She said some things that seem to confirm much of what you speculate. She mentioned 'other' programs that she felt were much more sensitive than the warrant less wiretaps. I don't think she meant to say the things she did.

[snappyturtle]

11. I had a hard time waking up but I do know the Congressional

critter was Heather Wilson, repuke from NM. Remember, she's the one that won her seat by a very narrow margin, under a thousand votes, and was involved in trying to influence U.S. Attorney Igelsias. I was SHOCKED to see her raise her head....much less be on WJ. In my drowsey state I just couldn't listen to her. However, your reference to other programs stuck a bell for me. I heard this on Frontline last week. That is, that there is more than one program operating. Frontline used testimony of Gonzo to illustrate the point. Gonzo was choosing his words carefully and always testified to 'this program', repeatedly, which gave rise to the concept that there's more than one. In the questioning, Diana Feinstein did the best job of trying to wheedle it out of him. You've made me very curious as to what Wilson said...I'll have to see if I can get a re-run of it. Thanks.

[ThomWV]

16. Watch It On Line - - 57 Minutes into the broadcast

It really stuck out to me how she out right admitted that there were other programs that no one was saying anything about at all that were much more sensitive.

Now I know that there are things that are held with great secrecy. Hull designs for nuclear submarines and what makes a hydrogen bomb go off come immediately to mind, but he words gave the impression that the ones in question were different. It seemed she was saying that they were more sensitive in a Constitutional sense.

Very scary.

On Edit: I just went to C-Span and played it until I found the part. It begins at about the 57 minute mark. Listen to what she says.

[snappyturtle]

26. THANK YOU! I will. nt

[Tyler Durden]

3. I forget who said this, but to paraphrase...

The question is NOT whether or not there's a "Secret Police." ALL states have a "Secret Police," some are just larger and more secret than others.

[yurbud]

4. Remember story a few years back about GOP getting congressional Dems emails?

[Marie26]

5. I pretty much agree

Also, Bush's signing statement allowed them to read people's mail. Combine that w/TIA, Echelon, Talon, and there's a truly scary amount of information on US citizens. The NSA is just one of many programs that were unleashed after 9/11. IMO, this also ties back into the US Att. scandal & the Duke Cunningham scandal. Crony defense companies like MZM & Choicepoint got the huge contracts to compile these illegal databases, while they also laundered money back into the GOP. Cunningham, Lewis, Hastert, etc. used that money to solidify their power, creating more kickbacks for the crony companies in the process. And because it was "outsourced", there wasn't any oversight of what these corporations were actually creating. The level of corruption is stunning. I think Lam was fired to cover this up, and Gonzales will remain in the DOJ as a firewall. They can't afford to fire him, or appoint another AG who might actually inform Congress about what the Admin. is doing.

[phoreten]

6. Wasn't that a recent movie plot.........? NT

[RedStateShame]

7. The MSM would pooh-pooh the idea of impeachment?

[wakeme2008]

8. From my review of John sandford's Hanged Man's Song

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=208x9904

From Cato Site http://www.cato.org/dailys/01-20-03.html

John Poindexter, head of the Pentagon's Office of Information Awareness, is developing a vast surveillance database to track terror suspects. The Total Information Awareness (TIA) system will, according to Poindexter, "break down the stovepipes" that separate commercial and government databases, allowing OIA access to citizens' credit card purchases, travel itineraries, telephone calling records, email, medical histories and financial information. It would give government the power to generate a comprehensive data profile on any U.S. citizen

....
The theory being is IF you collect all this information you may be able to "connect the dots" and discover terrorist unknown to you today. That's the Theory.

I have been in the programming business since the 60s and find Sandford's knowledge very strong. OK without giving out all the details of the book, Sandford lays out a very different use for TIA. If you believe the powers behind TIA, they want all this data so they can mine it looking for say people booking one way flights, paying in cash and all from the same area of the World. Once they got this information, they would cross check all their databases to see if any of these people know each other.... That's the theory. Sandford's theory of the use of these TIA databases is just the opposite and for controlling people of power.

In Sandford's world, the people behind TIA are targeting members of Congress and more so the members of the ruling party. Top committee chairpersons are very very powerful people. Sandford has the TIA people starting with a name and data mining their databases for all knowledge and connections to that person. This is not from the book just an example What IF, you had a say 14 yo boy flying all over the country and always showing up in a town at the exact same time Senator McKain is in that town alone without his wife... MMMMM,,, Oh look here, the boy's airfare was paid by a credit card that could be linked back to the Senator... Oh lookie here the boy never checks into a hotel ... You get the idea. Then say the powers to be need Senator McKain to flip-flop on say allowing people to be tortured. Just showing him some pictures of a nice 14 yo boy may get him to change his mind on torture.

Once you create these databases, the mining of data could be done starting with general items going in OR one item going out. Very Very troublin

[Norquist Nemesis]

18. Can you imagine if J. Edgar would have had access to this kind of technology?

hoooo boy! :scared:

[watrwefitinfor]

9. Laura Rozen has something up about this possibility.

Based on some of Comey's testimony.

http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/006129.html

And there's more about all this in this excellent DU post in Editorials this morning:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x281948

Wat

[starroute]

10. Stop and think for a moment about the blackmail part

It doesn't have to be limited to targeting particular high-profile names. If the DC Madam has all sorts of dirt just in her personal phone records...and if NSA has been collecting phone records as well . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

5/11/2006

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

[Blackhatjack]

12. The agency's(NSA) goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders

"The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders"

This should send a shudder down the neck of every American citizen.

Information is power, and power is an intoxicant, once used, rarely refused to carry out even the most nefarious of plans.

[Annces]

13. I wish someone in the bugging business

would bug Bush or Cheney or Wolfowitz and give them their own medicine.

[babylonsister]

14. From yesterday: TP has the same idea:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=899977&mesg_id=899977

[Blackhatjack]

22. You have the critical testimony at the LINK you provided, and you summed it up well...

It is amazing what you can discover if you compare the statements individuals give at one time with their later statements, especially if they are under oath.

THanks for the Link. It more clearly proves the point I was trying to make about more than one program.

[Beetwasher]

15. Actually, I ALREADY Take This "Theory" As A GIVEN

n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

19. Me too!

:kick:

[blm]

27. SAME HERE - Poppy Bush was blackmailing members of his own party during Nixon

years. If they opposed Nixon on anything, they would find themselves confronted by Poppy and his operatives.

[bamacrat]

17. Man I wish I knew what all fell under the umbrella of the "black funding"

Would be both cool and scary as hell.

[dogday]

20. ChoicePoint Inc

The information gathering company of choice for this administration and the republikans....

[Blackhatjack]

21. They were also involved in the recent contested Mexican Presidential Election right?

[dogday]

23. Oh yes

http://www.gregpalast.com/stealing-mexico


Sure did we the help of the shrub and co....

[Trillo]

24. If the proposal is true, the only chance we have is for

Congresspeople to bite the bullet and let the dirt fall where it may.

In my life, I've found that anticipation of something, either negative or positive, is much worse (negative) or much better (in the case of positive), than the event itself.

[EC]

25. I remember going into the war, Bushie had the offices at the

United Nations bugged of the countries that were descenting...so why not the Dems? More hideous would be the spying on the members of their own party to blackmail into voting their way and covering up bad deeds...Like why did Colin Powell go along? Could they have had something on the son? I noticed that when Colin quit so did the kid...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. I'd Say It Is Highly Likely You Are Correct.

God only knows the things goin on behind the scenes that we have yet to discover.

[file83]

29. That "renamed" domestic spying program is called "ADVISE"

Here's my original post on it from Feb 2006:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=365492

Here is the source article: US plans massive data sweep

I knew this was an important development when I first read about it. Intersting how this has come full circle.

[Spazito]

30. I certainly lean toward your convergence theory

After reading the DOJ response to the letter sent to Gonzales after Comey's testimony where the DOJ says Gonzales stands with his original testimony that the program involved that night of the hospital "visit" was NOT the NSA wiretapping program, either he is blatantly lying and there are witnesses who were present in that room who can testify that the program in question WAS the NSA wiretapping program or, indeed, there is another spying program that has not come to Congress. I am leaning toward the latter premise more than the former if only because of so many witnesses present in the hospital room when the "program" was raised by Gonzales and Card.

Here is the link to the Senate Judiciary letter for those who have not yet read it:

http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.com/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2007/document.pdf

[Warren Stupidity]

31. all they had to do was turn echelon on for domestic data.

The mechanism for intercepting essentially everything was already in place. Why would they not have done this?