GOP leader says Arne's education plans come from GOP playbook.

[madfloridian]

Which is very true. These are Bush's education plan right down the line.

There is a NYT article from this week that tells some of the things Arne said on his tour with his big blue bus. His really big blue bus.



Picture from The Monroe News Star.
U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan arrives Thursday at J.S. Clark Elementary during his national tour themed Courage in the Classroom: Honoring America’s Teachers.

And from the NYT this week:

A Celebratory Road Trip for Education Secretary

These should be fighting words for Democrats, instead all the party leaders are going along with these drastic changes.

Representative John Kline, Republican of Minnesota, the ranking minority member of the House Labor and Education Committee, said in an interview that some of Mr. Duncan’s reforms, especially ones unpopular with unions, came straight from the traditional Republican playbook.

“I said, ‘Arne, only you can do that,’ ” Mr. Kline said. “ ‘You’re the secretary of education for a Democratic president.’ ”

Though Mr. Duncan called his bus trip “a campaign for education,” there was little political edge. Should Republicans seize control of one or both houses of Congress, he vowed to find common ground.

“I’m the most nonpolitical person there could be,” he said. “I’ll work with anyone.”

His views have also attracted Newt Gingrich and even more kind words from Kline.

While Duncan's advocacy of school turnarounds, merit pay plans, and charter schools has frustrated many teachers, it has also earned him plaudits from others. And his popularity among reform-minded Democratic and Re­pub­lican politicians sometimes makes for strange bedfellows. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich has shared the stage with Duncan and civil rights advocate Al Sharpton, for instance, in promoting such reforms.

"I think he's a moderate-to-liberal Democrat, but I think he's courageous, sincerely committed to reform, puts children first," observes Mr. Gingrich. "And to have someone in his position willing to take on the teachers' unions is very significant."

Rep. John Kline of Minnesota, the top Republican on the House Education and Labor Committee, credits Duncan for his unusual level of "willingness to reach across the partisan aisle," including direct meetings between the two as the committee has been considering how to revise the massive federal education law known as No Child Left Behind, an undertaking that will require bipartisan collaboration

The leverage Duncan is exercising doesn't sit well with everyone. "Washington doesn't know how to remedy schools, and you should forgive me, but neither does Arne Duncan," says education historian Diane Ravitch, a onetime supporter of No Child Left Behind who now thinks it's had a corrosive effect. Race to the Top, in particular, is an aggressive intrusion of federal power, says Mrs. Ravitch, an assistant secretary of Education during the presidency of George H.W. Bush.

Education secretary Arne Duncan: headmaster of US school reform

The praise from the Republicans is suspect while teachers are trying so hard to get Arne's attention. That kind of post-partisanship is going to harm our education system.

[wtmusic]

1. Why would merit pay plans frustrate good teachers?

Seems good teachers should be paid more. Just like every other profession.

[demmiblue]

3. Because of the numerous factors that teachers are not able to control outside of the classroom.

:shrug:

[wtmusic]

5. Every profession has to deal with outside factors

and raw scores are not the basis of Race to the Top teacher evaluations.

Score improvement is taken into consideration, but it's only one part.

[demmiblue]

10. No offense, but can you please tell me what profession deals with the amount of factors...

that are similar to what teachers deal with on a daily basis?

Children are not machines, and many things in their lives that are outside of the classroom can affect their 'improvement' at any given time.

[wtmusic]

12. Any "people" job - promotions, marketing, sales -

involves just as many factors which are outside your control.

Say you're a car salesperson. Your sales manager has no interest whatsoever in the fact that your last twenty potential customers have been noncommital arrogant jerks, and the time you've spent with them has been wasted. Meanwhile, the salesperson in the next cubicle has somehow managed to get more of them to commit to a purchase. He/she makes more money.

Is that luck? Skill? It's always a combination of both, but in the long run if you're not getting your students to improve as much as someone else (even in the same school) it's probably just you. And instead of whining about how you're not getting the same pay as everyone else possibly some self-evaluation is in order.

[demmiblue]

17. You are talking about adults, not children.

Children are not consumers, nor are they commodities. Honestly, I do not think that they should be used to make a quick buck. Sure, a teacher can teach to the test and have students regurgitate facts. But, IMHO, that is not what education is about. The skills that children SHOULD learn in the classroom revolve around being the best that they can be in a way that is meaningful to THEM and their abilities, regardless of test scores. It is about discovery and critical thinking. Not every child is capable of being a rocket scientist. They need to find their own niche. That, to me, is the purpose of a liberal education. And, no, I am not saying that children do not need a basic education.

I think that you are way off base. I would love to see how a sales manager actively deals with issues of poverty, abuse, neglect, divorce, lack of food, etc. on a personal level. IMO, your comparison is invalid.


P.S. I am not a teacher.

[wtmusic]

21. By point:

Children are not consumers, nor are they commodities.

Children indirectly are indeed consumers; their parents pay their teachers' salaries. And unless you're aware of students being sold the "commodity" line is a straw man.

Honestly, I do not think that they should be used to make a quick buck.

Neither do I, and I have no idea what you mean by that statement.

Sure, a teacher can teach to the test and have students regurgitate facts. But, IMHO, that is not what education is about.

That's not what Arne Duncan or President Obama believe either. Another straw man.

The skills that children SHOULD learn in the classroom revolve around being the best that they can be in a way that is meaningful to THEM and their abilities, regardless of test scores.

A matter of opinion, but IMO as a parent a considerable part of what I want my kids taught is what will be useful to them in life, and test scores though imperfect are a rough gauge of that. Not surprisingly, kids who are curious (discovery) and good critical thinkers tend to do well on tests too.

Not every child is capable of being a rocket scientist.

That's ok, and irrelevant.

I would love to see how a sales manager actively deals with issues of poverty, abuse, neglect, divorce, lack of food, etc. on a personal level.

Are teachers now in charge of providing food and medical aid for their kids? Divorce counseling? Of course not, and neither are salespeople for their customers.

[demmiblue]

36. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

However...

As far as that last point, yes, teachers have to deal with this. I know of teachers that have had to bring in food to feed students that had none (not to mention toilet paper), have been trained in dealing with diabetic students (regular room, not special ed.), and have had to lend an ear/counseling to students that have suffered from all sorts of hardships (including death of a family member/students with cancer). Something tells me that your experiences come from a different perspective than many of the teachers/students I am talking about.

O.K. I also have to comment on another point. Written tests are good for linguistic/mathematical learners. However, not all children are able to do well on these types of tests. In fact,the most talented child I have ever known did somewhat poorly on these types of tests, but is brilliant in other areas (brilliant in the way that I expect to see his name tossed about here and there).

My last comment is this: I much rather trust the Democratic/liberal teachers on this site that have dedicated their lives to the education and advocation of children than to people that have never stepped a foot into a classroom.


Edit: not that a diabetic student should be in Special Ed., just that this particular student qualified, but the parents did not want to put him/her there.

[wtmusic]

59. I think we can agree on some things.

Almost every teacher I know that teaches in a lower-income school goes beyond the call of duty - brings in supplies, provides a measure of counseling, and refers kids for medical & professional care, etc. These posts are not about bashing teachers.

It's true that some kids are naturally more proficient on written tests, but Obama/Duncan are not pushing merit pay based on the raw results of student testing, compared to some arbitrary benchmark. They are pushing student growth and student improvement, and in fact students are essentially taking a written test every time they fill out a job application. It's a skill in itself, one that can be developed and improved, and a necessary one.

I'm not sure why you assume I've never stepped a foot into a classroom. I'm very involved with my kids' education, I go to every open house and meet with every teacher. I ask questions, I go to school board meetings, I talk to other parents. I know what goes on, and much of it is commendable. But here's an example of a recent experience at my daughter's middle school, which is typical.

At the open house there were 10 minutes allotted for each teacher to talk with parents, then a five-minute passing period to the next class. In total that meant teachers spending 1.5 hours extra once a year. At every one of these meetings, the bell rang before the teacher was finished and/or parents had time to ask questions. I'd talk to the teachers afterwards and every single one of them agreed that more time was needed, and they *were willing* to spend an extra five minutes. So at the next district school board meeting I brought the subject up, and though two of five councilmembers were supportive, a union rep in attendance made it clear that "things like that" would put contract negotiations in jeopardy. End of discussion.

Another problem with public education right now is there is very little accountability. There are truly egregious abuses which are happening - not only abuses of taxpayer money but quite literally child abuse, and teachers do not seem capable of policing themselves (essentially the same thing that's happening in the Catholic church right now). They do not as a group want to admit that any teacher could be capable of such a thing, and so they use the substantial resources of teachers' unions to throw up a wall of legal defense, calling it "due process", and effectively tie the hands of financially-strapped districts. Result? The bad teachers keep teaching. Jaded, uninvolved teachers with seniority keep teaching, while younger more enthusiastic ones get the boot.

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti-monopoly, anti-trust. That goes for both sides of the transaction - when a single employer *or* a group of employees gets too powerful, abuses and waste result. Right now teachers in my state (CA) can work for the public school system or choose from thousands of private schools, but school districts typically have only one union with which to negotiate a contract.

I'll refer you to a link which, if you don't think this is child abuse, we will have to "agree to disagree":

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/03/local/me-teachers3

[sulphurdunn]

110. People who think like you deserve what they're

going to get from this corporate privatization of public education. Tragically, the kids and the rest of us don't, but we'll go down with you all the same.

[wtmusic]

113. Q: Why does the United Federation of Teachers support "corporate privatization"?

A: Because although they call themselves a labor union, they have their own charter schools and are making big money just like corporations. As a matter of fact, teachers' unions are like big corporations in more ways than they care to admit - they intimidate, they stifle competition, they price-fix. But best of all - as non-profits, they don't have to pay a dime of income tax.

If you had actually read what I posted you might have been able to figure out that unlike the UFT I'm against the privatization of education. But don't let me get in the way of your knee-jerk.

:eyes:

[sulphurdunn]

116. The UFT sold out a long time ago.

to the Gate's and Broad foundations. It is to education what the mob is to a casino. Let's talk about the NEA. The NEA is a union with 3 million members. It is not a corporation. You should learn the difference. The NEA has a budget of about $300 million. That's about 1/10th the average income of a top tier hedge fund manager (one of the groups of venture capitalists pushing privatization). It is only the NEA and its state affiliates that stand between your kids and these sociopathic barbarians in suits. All the blather about improvements through market competition and the damage being done by unaccountable teachers and monopolistic unions are red herrings. Soon enough you'll taste the hook.

[Imajika]

35. What?

"The skills that children SHOULD learn in the classroom revolve around being the best that they can be in a way that is meaningful to THEM and their abilities, regardless of test scores. It is about discovery and critical thinking."

No, that isn't at all what I want out of our public schools. That sounds like a bunch of new age blather. What I want my tax dollars to go toward is teaching kids reading, writing, arithmetic, science, etc. I want them to learn the subject matter, and I want to see test scores that demonstrate that they've learned the subject matter. It is most certainly NOT all about discovery and critical thinking. Those things are important, but making sure our kids in the public school system are actually learning the basics is far more important.

[demmiblue]

38. I guess you missed this:

"And, no, I am not saying that children do not need a basic education."

And good luck with science, social studies, arts, music, etc. in the current educational climate!


P.S. Critical thinking encompasses a true understanding of subject material. Are you saying you want children to simply memorize facts? Wow!

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Just more uninformed blather LOL

I second that WOW and add a 'Good Grief'.

[madfloridian]

41. "It is most certainly NOT all about discovery and critical thinking."

It should be about that...depth of learning.

Now it is all about data. We have data-driven education...no longer geared to the needs of students.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. New age blather?? LOL

Kids need critical thinking and problem solving skills in order to learn Reading, Writing and Arithmetic. (By the way, Arithmetic is only a small part of Math. Did you realize that?)

Kids can't learn subject matter until they understand HOW to learn. And because we sit kids down in front of a teevee when they are babies, they come to school 5 years later without the critical thinking skills and sense of discovery that generations of kids developed naturally.

It is very frustrating when uninformed folks pipe in on these discussions.

[Imajika]

60. So why have the discussion here then?

"It is very frustrating when uninformed folks pipe in on these discussions."

Which gets to my point. The handful of people that endlessly post these Duncan/Obama bashing education status-quo threads don't want to hear any debate or "discussion" anyway.

These threads should go straight into the Education folder, they are about as productive as Gun and I/P threads.

Every one of these threads is the same and the people whom post them don't want any discussion anyway, they just want agreement. Duncan/Obama = bad. The only solution to our education systems woes = more money. Merit pay = bad. Virtually any change to the seniority based/tenure system = bad. TFA = low wage, job stealing thieves. Determining which teachers are failing at their jobs and terminating them = bad. Charter schools = bad. New ideas to shake up and change the status quo = bad.

It has become obvious to me that all these threads are about is protecting teacher salaries and benefits. I'm certainly not saying the status-quo educators that post this stuff don't also love and care about the kids, I am sure they do - but the focus is really not about improving some of these awful public schools (particularly in urban areas), it is about protecting turf, salaries and bennies.

Things are changing, get used to it. The private sector is suffering, and they pay the bills - so educators will be asked to do MORE with less (no different than the private sector). We will need to get away from the static, seniority driven system in favor of more dynamic, innovative, merit based structures. Red tape and endless bureaucracy need to be reduced. Unions will need to become vastly more flexible.

Now if you don't want to hear any discussion that counters what you already believe, why not just dump these threads in the Education folder?

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Did you recommend health care threads go straight into the health forum?

The only people who don't want to hear the debate are those who don't agree our institution of public education is being destroyed. If you don't like the conversation, then hide thread and ignore posters. Coming into these threads and shitting on them isn't helping to promote a dialogue.

It blows my mind that those of us actually IN the schools (and most of us have spent decades teaching your children) are not viewed as authorities who understand how the system works and where it fails. Instead we are viewed as complainers by those of you who don't understand what is happening to our schools.

And yes, money is indeed the answer. We haven't tried properly funding our schools yet. Until we value education as much as we value the military we won't be spending enough on our children's future. It will be a cold day in hell when I stop asking for funding. Equal, fair, adequate funding. Something we have yet to try. Most of our urban poor are being educated in 100 year old non air-conditioned, boiler heated buildings that urban districts have never had the funding to properly maintain. The building I taught in last year had windows fall out of it. We got to school in the morning and found windows laying in the parking lot and on the playground.

And no it's not about teacher pay or teacher benefits. (As if expecting highly trained professionals to be adequately compensated is wrong?!) Teachers don't go into this business to get rich. Let's put that myth to rest. We just want the resources we know our kids need. What other profession are the employees expected to spend their own money to buy supplies for work? I have purchased an air conditioner, a computer, a printer and a copier for my classroom. This weekend I spent over $50 on supplies for kids whose parents can't afford them. This afternoon I am going shopping for uniforms. What other profession does that? I have asked that question repeatedly over the decades and have yet to get an answer.

Yes, Obama's agenda is wrong. Making our kids compete for funding is insane. They have spent years starving our schools and now they hold out a plate of more money than we have ever seen and they are proposing a contest to get the funding?? That's so many levels of wrong I can't even put it into words.

You would do yourself a favor by educating yourself so you can avoid stupid rw talking points like referring to status quo. I don't know any teacher who wants things to stay the way they are. We want better schools, modern facilities, technology, and well educated kids. Charters that are not held accountable and competing for resources are not the way to get there. Neither are big buses.

[sulphurdunn]

111. Nonsense

You're supporting a movement that intends to reduce the children of the poor and working classes to scores on a test to determine who gets to serve their ruling class masters for subsistence wages and who gets to starve in a world of diminishing resources and opportunities. It's called "venture philanthropy" and it has little to do with learning subject matter and much to do profiting through the commodification of children. There is nothing "new age" about it. It is speculative capitalism at its worst. It is an evil thing, friend, and you need to do some critical thinking about it.

[StClone]

105. Sales you mean Real Estate Agent? Talk to them sometime

[Hannah Bell]

6. because except in extreme cases it's impossible to judge who's the "better" teacher (given

= experience, resources & similar students), it inevitably becomes political -- & IT DESTROYS COLLEGIALITY & SOLIDARITY -- worse for students, worse for schools.

it's bullshit. it has no discernable effect on improving students' educational performance, & only negative ones on everything else.

it's a trojan horse to divide teachers & pick them off.

[femmocrat]

11. Because merit pay is based on student test scores.

1. Not every teacher tests, thus eliminating those teachers from the opportunity to earn more.
2. A standardized test score is like a snapshot of student achievement on one day and can vary greatly.
3. Teachers want to be paid based on their qualifications such as education attainment, seniority, and extra responsibilites, not on unreliable student data.
4. Merit pay can be used for political rewards and punishment.
5. Evaluations based on student scores are extremely unfair to teachers.
6. Merit pay for test scores strips the curriculum of any depth and leads to "teaching to the test" and possible cheating (hey, people are desperate!).

Those are just a handful of reasons. There are probably a dozen more.

[wtmusic]

15. No, it's based on many factors.

From "Great Teachers and Leaders" in the Race to the Top Executive Summary:

"(D)(2) Improving teacher and principal effectiveness based on performance (58 points)
The extent to which the State, in collaboration with its participating LEAs (as defined in this notice), has a high-quality plan and ambitious yet achievable annual targets to ensure that participating LEAs (as defined in this notice)—
(i) Establish clear approaches to measuring student growth (as defined in this notice) and measure it for each individual student; (5 points)
(ii) Design and implement rigorous, transparent, and fair evaluation systems for teachers and principals that (a) differentiate effectiveness using multiple rating categories that take into account data on
student growth (as defined in this notice) as a significant factor, and (b) are designed and developed with teacher and principal involvement; (15 points)
(iii) Conduct annual evaluations of teachers and principals that include timely and constructive feedback; as part of such evaluations, provide teachers and principals with data on student growth for their students, classes, and schools; and (10 points)
(iv) Use these evaluations, at a minimum, to inform decisions regarding— (28 points)
(a) Developing teachers and principals, including by providing relevant coaching, induction support, and/or professional development;
(b) Compensating, promoting, and retaining teachers and principals, including by providing opportunities for highly effective teachers and principals (both as defined in this notice) to obtain additional compensation and be given additional responsibilities;
(c) Whether to grant tenure and/or full certification (where applicable) to teachers and principals using rigorous standards and streamlined, transparent, and fair procedures; and
(d) Removing ineffective tenured and untenured teachers and principals after they have had ample opportunities to improve, and ensuring that such decisions are made using rigorous standards and streamlined, transparent, and fair procedures."

http://www2.ed.gov/programs/racetothetop/executive-summary.pdf

[NYC_SKP]

86. The terms, "multiple measures" or "alternative measures" appears 7 or 8 times in 15 pages.

Thank you for providing the ACTUAL DOCUMENT around which so much discussion has arisen.


"(ii) Design and implement rigorous, transparent, and fair evaluation systems for teachers and
principals that (a) differentiate effectiveness using multiple rating categories that take into account data on
student growth (as defined in this notice) as a significant factor, and (b) are designed and developed with
teacher and principal involvement; (15 points)..."

multiple rating categories... as "a" (one of many) significant factor...


:patriot:

[sulphurdunn]

112. Only test scores are quantifiable.

Student growth is only measurable using test scores. The rest: multiple rating categories, evaluation systems, differentiated effectiveness, designed with teacher and principle involvement are all euphemisms, mere window dressing that anyone with a background is public education should recognize for what they are. In the end it will all come down to test scores.

[olegramps]

54. Well, maybe you can grasp this fact::

A teacher whose students are living in abject poverty with a single parent that can barely make enough to keep a rat-hole tenement roof over their heads and who have even the most minimal advantages is fighting an up hill battle. These kids start with two strikes against them. Unlike the the kids from suburbia they are unable to even have a fundamental grasp of reading, knowing their colors, able to count, etc. After bucking all the odds the kids take the damn test and they are shown to be far behind the kids that started off with basic skills. This is compounded by the vast contrast between the culture of those who are succeeding in which they are surrounded with a much richer cultural environment. Well, it must be the teacher's fault.

If you want to solve the problem then solve the real cause: POVERTY. It is not just financial poverty but a poverty that affects every aspect of the child's environment.

[wtmusic]

61. That comparison has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.

Obama/Duncan are not comparing kids living in abject poverty to kids living in Upper Crust Estates.

They are trying to compare kids to themselves last year, or the year before. If teachers don't want to take any responsibility for a given child's improvement, they should be fired.

[olegramps]

62. You are so brainwashed it is impossible for you to grasp the most fundamental issue.

These kids in poverty environments will not progress at any significant rate until their environment is changed. Why don't you go post on some Republican Teacher Bashing Board where your anti-union attitude will be gleefully welcomed.

[wtmusic]

63. No, the difference is you want to give up and I don't.

Apparently you think education is hopeless in lower-income neighborhoods, so we should...what? Give up, until economic conditions improve? I'm sure teachers would be willing to forego their salary in the meantime. :eyes:

"These kids in poverty environments will not progress at any significant rate until their environment is changed." What's significant? You tell me. :shrug:

[olegramps]

104. Why don't you go visit some of these depressed communities and educate yourself.

All I can detect is that you are a little less bright than the Tea-baggers in your assessment of the situation. I wouldn't want to waste my time discussing the effects that nourishment has on brain development. You would only end up blaming the children for not being properly cared for.

[wtmusic]

114. Keep all children at home until they have 3 balanced meals/day?

Blame, blame, blame. That's all you can do. "No one can understand except teachers, so trust us to pay ourselves and to know whether we're doing the best we can."

If you can, read the writing on the wall: that bullshit doesn't cut it anymore.

[patty2828]

66. merit pay

Merit pay in education is based on test scores and subjective evaluations. Children are not widgets to be manufactured. Successful teaching staffs work as a quality team. Merit pay dismantles any hope of colleagiality and sharing. Merit pay has proven to be a disaster in every school it has been implemented in when the use of test scores and subjective evaluation were he basis for the pay.

[Catshrink]

67. Thank you

and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[wtmusic]

73. No, it's not.

Merit pay as proposed by Obama/Duncan encourages objective evaluation of improvement in test scores, not raw scores. It encourages teamwork.

Since you apparently do not approve of objective (test score improvement) or subjective evaluation, you don't approve of evaluation at all. We're approaching the end of that era.

[LWolf]

72. Why would supposed Democrats support Republican "reforms?" nt

[wtmusic]

74. Obama is Republican?

Damn, I never would have contributed to his campaign. :D

[LWolf]

77. He's a Democrat that supports and enacts republican reforms.

What kind of Democrat does that?

[wtmusic]

78. Either that, or maybe the reforms are not Republican.

What kind of a Democrat would suggest that Obama supports Republican reforms?

[LWolf]

79. A Democrat that has paid attention to, and opposed,

republican reforms for more than 3 decades now, and recognizes them when they are placed in front of her, regardless of who is now pushing them.

[wtmusic]

83. Your opinion is noted.

I would disagree that paying people based on what they're worth is the sole domain of the Republican Party.

Among Democrats as a whole, you're in a substantial minority.

[LWolf]

85. Merit pay is a tool for political manipulation of what is supposed to be a public system.

It's straight from Ronald Reagan's playbook. The guy that wanted to abolish the Dept. of Ed.

And it's one point in a mountain of other republican reforms adopted by Democrats.

[wtmusic]

87. Do you think school district contracts are awarded by lottery?

No, they're awarded by merit.

The companies that build schools - are they the contractors who have been around the longest, or the best ones?

They're the best ones, and it's been that way since before Mr. Reagan was born. A long time ago.

Not a partisan issue.

[LWolf]

88. I'm truly not finding your point.

Awarding school contracts to private companies IS older than RR, when it comes to construction. Of course, building schools is a totally separate issue from staffing and running them.

It was under RR that the districts in the state I then worked in began contracting bus services and nutrition services to outside private companies. Bus drivers made less money, buses became more expensive to get for field trips, bus routes became longer, and our schools stopped cooking fresh food on site for our students, and started bringing in pre-cooked junk food to be warmed up and served in disposable cartons.

Merit pay based on standardized test scores that are not valid indicators of teachers' merit is a corrupt political tool.

Psychologists and statisticians...those involved in the development of, the giving of, and the analysis of, standardized tests, know better. They always have. It's been understood since before the instituting of high stakes testing at the state or national level that standardized test scores are a better indicator of parent SES than anything a teacher does.

We don't approve of merit pay because of the dangers of political manipulation. It's that simple.

And again, your focus on merit pay, while ignoring the many other republican "reforms" supported by the Obama administration and some Democrats, is telling.

[wtmusic]

92. You responded to a post specifically referring to merit pay

so I'm not sure why you think I'm "ignoring" other reforms, it just happened to be the subject of that post.

Enlighten me on the "dangers of political manipulation". You think no other profession has to deal with favoritism/cronyism/nepotism, yet still promotes and hands out raises based on merit because it works?

Do you think merit pay as advocated by Obama is based only on standardized test scores?

Do you think that the Reagan-era pre-cooked junk and bus driver salaries had nothing to do with major cutbacks in federal education funding?

If so, you're grossly misinformed.

[LWolf]

103. I replied to a post about Arne Duncan's education plan.

Of which merit pay is one part, not the whole.

To answer your questions:

The depth and breadth of education of the voting population is a huge factor in the election process. Manipulation of the system for political purposes is rampant.

In higher education, favoring of professors who slant the thinking and discussions in their classrooms is dangerous. I don't see how you can miss this point. In K-12, political manipulation of content happens all the time. Take a look at the Texas board of ed for examples. At district levels, teachers who will shut up and get in line will be favored over teachers who buck the political direction a board takes. The same goes at site levels for anyone who questions administrative decisions. ALL OF THESE THINGS AFFECT WHAT HAPPENS IN THE CLASSROOM. An even bigger factor is home life; parent education and income level, the levels of family dysfunction, etc..

Teachers do not control the political manipulations above them, nor do they control the crucial years for brain development, K-4 years, nor do they control the home environment. All of these affect test scores, and, yes, that's what will be used to determine merit. The blueprint calls for test scores to be "part" of an evaluation system. A big enough part that test scores can, and will in many cases, drag otherwise positive evaluations down.

And a teacher's test scores can be partially pre-determined by admins, which is political manipulation. How? Since we know that SES is the most consistent factor in determining test scores, a compliant teacher's class can be stacked with higher ses, and teachers that speak up about bad administrative decisions can have their rosters stacked with lower ses, behavior problems, kids in crisis, and other factors guaranteed to result in lower test scores. A good system WANTS teachers to want to take on the hardest students; punishing them for doing so is counter-productive, if you truly want the best outcomes for them.

Reagan era cutbacks? Of course they had something to do with the outsourcing of bus and food services, and the decline in quality. They served their purpose well.

"Grossly misinformed" is simply false. I've been on the front lines in public education since the Reagan era. I've taught in two states, in large and small districts, large and small schools, across 1200 miles. I've been in contact with teachers from all over the nation during that time. I've attended board meetings, worked in district committees and been hired by other districts to do staff development. For 5 years I taught a demonstration classroom observed by teachers, parents, and admins from districts around my state. I've dealt with every state and federal mandate handed out in the last 3 decades. I'm as informed as anyone you are going to find.

[wtmusic]

115. Not raw test scores. Improvement in test scores.

RTTT is encouraging the measurement of growth: test score improvement, not comparing one school to another. Not comparing one student to another. If a teachers' kids show improvement, regardless of dysfunctional family, parent income and educational level, they would be positively evaluated. Is political manipulation, stacking the deck, fraud, and favoritism possible? No, it's inevitable - but join the club, it's that way in every other profession. In mine, sometimes I get screwed, but because I always work my ass off to provide results for clients in the long run it pays off.

"At district levels, teachers who will shut up and get in line will be favored over teachers who buck the political direction a board takes. The same goes at site levels for anyone who questions administrative decisions." I've been at the receiving end at this one, and it might be phrased like this:" parents who shut up and get in lines' kids will be favored over kids whose parents who questions a teacher's abilities or methods." With that in mind, what is your opinion on how teachers pay should be determined? Seniority and education alone? As a parent, what would you say to me to convince me that my kid's teacher who has been teaching for 35 years and has a Master's degree but is insulting, uninvolved, uninspiring, unmotivating, arrogant, and difficult to reach deserves a penny of my taxes?

Teachers right now, in practical terms, are accountable to no one. You are asking me to accept the idea that teachers are doing the best they can and that the deplorable state of public education in the US is the result of everything else but them. You are asking me to not evaluate them, to let them determine their own pay, to let the fox guard the henhouse, when no other profession on the face of the earth works that way.

[bread_and_roses]

106. Their Corporate Masters require worker drones and busting the last powerful unions

It's all part of the same playbook that has made post-secondary education unaffordable for working class and poor students, and now even for most "middle-class" students. Compare college costs and available aid today to that available when I started college in '68.

It's part of the same playbook that has crushed unions for the past forty years and now is full-attack on the organized public sector at every level - from teachers to ticket-takers.

It's part of the same playbook that has destroyed decent wages and working conditions, relegating most even "middle-class" families to wage and debt peonage.

It's part of the same playbook that wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid.

It's part of the same playbook that arranged the most egregious transfer of wealth maybe in all history, with the "rescue" of the Banksters and Wall Street Vampires while Main Street crumbled.

It's part of the same playbook that wants to destroy "government" - shrink wages, offshore jobs, squeeze local tax revenues while transferring ever more of the overall tax burden to workers and lay the blame on teacher and public sector worker salaries and pensions.

Better reserve your bunk at the Company Barracks, enroll your kid at the Company School, and get your "electronic transfer card" for the Company Store.

[KamaAina]

109. Well, maybe not every other profession

What if good politicians were paid more? :P

[Kingofalldems]

2. He's a republican plant eh? That explains a lot----

I remember seeing his picture on someone's sig line. Wow. :shrug:

[Starry Messenger]

7. You rang?

:D Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the guy.

[Hannah Bell]

4. yep. from pinochet to pnac to bush to arne.

[Jim Sagle]

44. Last stop soylent green.

[Starry Messenger]

8. I'm really frightened by the front of that bus.

"Honoring America's Teachers"...the last words we see right before the bus goes right over us.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Arne can shove his honor

I certainly am not interested in being honored by this asshole.

[Starry Messenger]

89. It's one of those corporate doublespeak things I think.

By "honoring" they actually mean humiliating and shaming.

[femmocrat]

9. “I’ll work with anyone.”

Except teachers, it seems. :(

[Edweird]

13. There's a lot of the GOP playbook coming out of this administration.

[Catshrink]

14. +1

[democracy1st]

19. I know I think I'm going to make a list.

[SammyWinstonJack]

56. Yes there is.

x(

[The Straight Story]

16. These are also the education plans of the dems in the 90's

Called outcome based education (OBE) which the rethugs opposed for the same reasons (and more) that we do.

The r's got into power, renamed it, and suddenly were for it and dems against it.

We got played.

[MoonRiver]

18. So glad this is my last year before retirement.

The business of education has become totally insane.

[YvonneCa]

20. I think we teachers got his attention, hence...

...the big blue bus. ;)

[Catshrink]

22. Yeah, because that pretty blue bus will put chairs in my classroom.

[YvonneCa]

26. I just wish I knew why they seem to keep...

...missing the point. Back when Obama first appointed Duncan, my suggestion at Ed.gov was that he/they start fresh with a huge and loud apology to the teachers in this country for how they were treated under NCLB and Bush. At that point, the bus could have been a nice touch...a nice way to make the point.

But they have added to the scapegoating since inauguration. Their policy has been even more punitive...so it seems a little late for 'cutsey.' The timing is a bit off.

[msongs]

23. the primary flaw in teachers versus office managers/other jobs is........

corporate office managers can send underachievers to training or fire them for failing to meet goals. Teachers have to take all kids whether those kids do any work/study of an kind or not and cannot send them to retraining or fire them.

[Catshrink]

24. Public school teachers can't.

Charters and private schools are a different matter.

[wtmusic]

25. Question

Regardless of a student's background, intelligence, home life, attitude - should a teacher bear any responsibility for motivating them? Isn't that part of the job?

[YvonneCa]

28. I spent 24 years doing exactly that...

...often with good results, but not always. It is a huge part of the job, and teachers do it daily. Trouble is, at a low-performing school, a teacher can make a difference...but the school may still under perform.

So should we blame that on the teachers who work their heart and soul out for those kids? I think thse teachers deserve a medal. :patriot:

[wtmusic]

30. I don't believe that strict comparison of test scores is even considered

for merit pay. How could it be?

I'm guessing you were in a Title 1 school here in CA. If I were you, and the teacher in the next classroom was making the same salary for showing up late and playing on his computer, I would be furious. Isn't that kind of what we have now?

[YvonneCa]

90. Good guess on the...

...school. :7 I never saw what you mention about "showing up late and playing on his computer" except...rarely...for subs. The regular teachers I saw had WAY too much work to do for that. Maybe I was oblivious here...but I never saw that.

[wtmusic]

96. My daughter had that

and kids whose parents complained saw their grade get dinged.

Because there's very little recourse, here's what a parent does: keeps their mouth shut, tells their kid to play along, tries to give them material at home to make up.

Something needs to change.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catshrink]

29. Really?

If you don't like it, exercise the hide thread option or don't click the thread. Education is an important issue and if you don't want to find out what's going on and equate the concerns of those on the front lines to whining, I strongly suggest just ignoring the threads.

[Imajika]

33. That is an option...

Then again, Guns are an important issue too yet topics related to 2nd Amend/Gun Control get sent directly to the Gungeon. Isn't Israel/Palestine a pretty significant issue as well? It is literally a flashpoint for battles and wars throughout the Middle East, yet those threads get moved to the I/P forum. The hide thread option could be used for those too right?

What do we get in these education threads exactly? It's the same people mostly posting the same thing over and over. You know whats coming. Endless complaints about Obama/Duncan. Stale, status-quo arguments each and every time. I doubt anyone's mind is ever changed and the discussions just get nasty.

I mean, we get it, there are a handful of educators here who hate Arne Duncan and are really displeased with Obama. These people don't like merit pay, any change to the seniority/tenure system, TFA, charter schools, etc, etc. At the end of the day, the threads are really mostly about protecting teachers salary and benefits - NOT doing anything to improve the education system for the kids. I just think these threads should go directly into the Education folder.

[ibegurpard]

34. tough shit

[Catshrink]

37. No, they're about the attempts by this administration to privatize education.

It's about endless testing testing testing. They're about public funds being diverted into schools that don't have to meet the same standards. They are about public policy that affects all of society. If that's too much for you to contemplate, I strongly suggest that you use the hide thread option if you don't like education threads.

[madfloridian]

40. Don't compare education to guns or the Middle East.

This is about the Democrats taking the Bush agenda to privatize education.

Don't keep belittling it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. Your threads are consistently among the top ones recced

Now a few loyalists in denial are determined to put your stuff in another forum.

I know you aren't going to back down. And you have more of us behind you than against you.

[Diane R]

42. You nailed it, Imajika. These journals are all the same, every day. Should be in Education.

[ibegurpard]

43. Nope...everyone needs to know what they're trying to do to education

and it needs to be repeated again and again
No to privatization of public education!

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. During the health care reform battle last summer,

did you think threads on that topic belonged in the Health forum? They were mainly just repeats on the same theme, people sick and dying from lack of health care. Same thing day after day.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Diane R]

81. Oh? So no other opinions are allowed in these daily, hourly journals? No thank you; I'll stay here.

[ibegurpard]

82. fine...then shut up about moving them

[GreenArrow]

58. No, it shouldn't.

These posts deal with a major US policy position that effects everyone who has kids, knows someone who has kids, pays taxes, or is simply concerned about the state of education policy in this country. What they don't do is reflect well on the President or his stooge, Duncan.

If you've been a member of this site for any length of time, then you'll know that education related posts have always appeared in GD, and that the OP was equally critical of Bush's "No Child Left Behind" scheme. This post belongs in GD, and if the OP wishes to cross-post it, in the education forum.

The topic forums, aka "D/Gungeons" IMO, are one of the most chicken shit features of DU, and now we have people advocating "gungeoning" education related posts. Unbelievable!

[Ignis]

108. So hit Alert. WTF do you want us to do about it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Not all of us are willing to sit by and watch public education be destroyed

Most of the teachers here on DU have dedicated their lives to educating your children. So of course we are going to speak up when we see public education being torn apart.

If you think this is about protecting teachers and our salaries, you haven't been paying attention. It's about kids. We are their advocates.

[ibegurpard]

31. no it's about not allowing public education to be privatized

[Dappleganger]

32. Some teachers should get "combat pay"...

the ones who specifically sign up to teach the most disadvantaged children within the worst performing systems.

As a mom and taxpayer that's what I think.

[femmocrat]

65. I have no problem with that.

I teach in a quiet rural district now, but did teach several years in the city. I was in constant fear for my safety. If there is a way to pay those brave teachers more, then we should do for it. But basing their pay on student performance is definitely not the way.

One of the problems would be funding. The "worst performing systems" are usually the urban districts (disclaimer: of course, not every school in every city!!!) which have a less solid financial base of property taxes. I do think Obama and Duncan are looking for a way to improve these schools. The way they are going about it is just insane.

[Dappleganger]

75. It certainly is.

And no teacher should be paid according to how the kids are testing, otherwise no one would ever want to teach in the disadvantaged areas, would they?

[ibegurpard]

39. k&r

stop the privatization schemes!

[xchrom]

45. Recommend

[madrchsod]

46. i guess we`d better watch what we say or....

we`ll be sent to the corner for a time out.

the republicans are very happy with obama-duncan`s union busting. get rid of the largest union in america and the rest will fall.

[speppin]

47. That is a scary thought--"get rid of the largest union in america and the rest will fall."

[patty2828]

68. dismantling of public ed

You are correct that Duncan and Obama do not like the education unions. Everything they have espoused thus far has been anti teacher and especially anti teacher union. I am extremely disappointed! Ask Chicago teachers how much they respected Duncan....
What we are witnessing is the dismantling of public education, it began with "A Nation At Risk" and the campaign continues.

[madfloridian]

69. So true.

I am a retired teacher who is very disappointed and disillusioned at how this admin is painting teachers.

Welcome to DU.

[asdjrocky]

70. In other news-

Rain is wet.

[LWolf]

71. Anyone paying attention recognizes that. Why would supposed Democrats

be supporting Republican "reforms?"

[Joe Fields]

76. A lot of people here are missing an important point.

Arne was discussing, in the linked article actions taken against FAILING schools. Got it? Failing, as in "the kids were NOT learning."

Now, if teachers, at least the rabid ones on this site want to defend teachers from failing schools, I for one would just love to hear a coherent argument.

But it seems that the teachers here promote the status quo, and are only interested in resisting change and making excuses.

It's the kids. They are failing while excuses are being made.

Teachers, if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

[ibegurpard]

80. My hometown paper recently ran an article

about how Billings schoolchildren aren't meeting federal standards...this despite the fact that our kids rank highly nationally in college prep tests and other evaluation criteria.
Propaganda to try to convince us our schools are failing us.
Meanwhile, the VERY poor and underfunded school districts throughout the country that have no tax base are being gutted in favor of corporate-funded privatization because there aren't enough people informed and powerful enough to do anything about it.
You are part of the solution in search of a problem.
The problems that DO exist aren't the fault of teachers...they are the by-product of inner cities decimated by job-losses and flight of tax base.

My city, Billings, MT, has so-far weathered the economic storm fairly well. The citizens continue to put up the funds needed for our schools. We succeed in educating our children. I have no intention of letting the propaganda designed to create support for privatization of public schools get a foothold here.

[Diane R]

84. You always make a good point, Joe.

[Jakes Progress]

91. Golly this is tiring.

So again we have teachers as the only thing that affects children. They are the ones who put them in crumbling buildings. They are the ones who put their parents out of work. They are the ones who peddle the dope on the streets. They are the ones who create the poverty that is the highest determiner of success in schools.

Criminey. How can so many nominally sane and thinking people keep buying this shit. Have you asked yourself how the school was determined to be failing, or FAILING, as you like to put it? I know how those tests are constructed, how they are prepared, and how they are skewed.

Are there teachers who don't give 100% 24/7? Yep. Are there policemen, soldiers, lawyers, firemen, insurance salesmen, plumbers who don't give 100% 24/7? Do we fire whole police departments? Do we dishonorably discharge whole battalions of soldiers? Do we evaluate soldiers of an entire unit on how many extra shoe strings the quartermaster has in stock? That is how judging teachers based on the tests works. The tests don't measure what is valuable and they make critical things that are simply measurable. The curriculum becomes smaller and less purposeful. Teachers who don't mind teaching the test items get higher ratings. The dedicated teachers who try to teach actual skills as well as try to do the inane test prep fall behind. These measures will reward exactly the kinds of teachers you do not want working with children, teachers who do not care and do not put any effort into understanding and diagnosing and adapting, and inspiring.

Please really think about these things before the knee-jerk, common wisdom comes spewing out. People are smarter than this.

[Catshrink]

93. It's a grudge, that's all.

Good post, btw, but I'm afraid your words are in vain.

[wtmusic]

95. Or course, it's the whole world against the AFT.

Cry me a river. :eyes:

[wtmusic]

94. Are soldiers promoted because of merit?

What about lawyers, firemen, salesmen, plumbers, policemen? Of course they are.

Is there a test that's 100% fair which determines when members of any of these professions gets a raise? Of course not.

Where do some teachers find the gall to feel they're above being held accountable for their performance? You tell me. :shrug:

[Jakes Progress]

100. Sigh.

Well, well newt loves you.

[Diane R]

101. +1 for wtmusic

[ibegurpard]

97. Stop trying

For whatever reason people support public school privatization you're not going to change their minds.
What needs to be done is make sure everyone who DOESN'T support it is made aware of what's going on.

[YvonneCa]

99. Your words: "People are smarter than this. " I thought so until Bush was...

...elected in 2000. I was proven wrong...but have always believed it was Republicans who had this 'blind side.'

It really bothers me to see Dems unable to open their minds enough to at least research what is happening in education before they speak.

[YvonneCa]

98. 'Active Listening'...sometimes called 'Attentive Listening'...

...skill level prevents some here from hearing a coherent argument, even when one is made.

It usually ends up shut down by such rhetoric as 'status quo' and 'for the kids'. Nothing wrong with changing the status quo or being for kids...but that rhetoric was used since 1990 in my district to promote change, which I was FOR, btw.

It would be nice if we actually heard each other...since most of us are Democrats and all. :)

[indepat]

102. Running with the GOP playbook makes this administration too far to the right -of -center

for the comfort of this progressive. :shrug:

[bread_and_roses]

107. These calls for topics on PUBLIC education - which effects ALL of us - to be topic'ed

Because some posters don't like their content? What's that all about? If PUBLIC education is not a "general" topic, I don't know what is.