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NO CHILD'S BEHIND LEFT: THE TEST

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:40 AM
Original message
NO CHILD'S BEHIND LEFT: THE TEST
NO CHILD'S BEHIND LEFT: THE TEST
Tuesday, January 10, 2006 by Greg Palast the author of the New York Times bestseller, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.
Read his investigative reports at www.GregPalast.com

New York -- Today and tomorrow every 8-year-old in the state of New York will take a test. It's part of George Bush's No Child Left Behind program.
The losers will be left behind to repeat the third grade.
Try it yourself.

This is from the state's actual practice test. Ready, class?
"The year 1999 was a big one for the Williams sisters. In February, Serena won her first pro singles championship. In March, the sisters met for the first time in a tournament final. Venus won. And at doubles tennis, the Williams girls could not seem to lose that year."

And here's one of the four questions: "The story says that in 1999, the sisters could not seem to lose at doubles tennis. This probably means when they played "A two matches in one day "B against each other "C with two balls at once "D as partners"
OK, class, do you know the answer?
(By the way, I didn't cheat: there's nothing else about "doubles" in the text.)

My kids go to a New York City school in which more than half the students live below the poverty line. There is no tennis court.

more . . . http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Literacy/texasScam.asp
This is one of the BEST articles about the problems with No Child Left Behind!
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well I heard that teachers teach to the test. So most likely teachers would have taught what
Edited on Thu May-17-07 11:47 AM by Sapere aude
doubles tennis is. The question is not the information source here, the class before the test was. I am not defending NCLB.

I have taken many tests and taken preparatory classes for the tests and have also taught. In both cases I have seen or have given out the questions and answers that could be selected for the test.
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I only had one course in school where the teacher allowed help during exams.
It was high school geometry, and we could use our notes that we took during class (which we were also graded heavily on for completion) to help us remember formulae, equations and how to logically do two-column proofs. Other than one long proof being on our final exam which exactly matched something in the notes (an end-of-year freebie from the teacher) we STILL had to have the basics down to have a chance to pass. And the course still wasn't a giveaway by any measure.

I guess my point in bringing this whole thing up is: What teacher is going to give a lecture on "doubles tennis", that wouldn't put those urban kids straight to sleep, and which the students would be likely enough to remember when it came to test time? Maybe this is what they are doing because they know they have to, but it still feels like I've just fallen into Bizarro World. :crazy:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Teachers don't have the specifics of the test. They can only teach general skills
They have no way of knowing the specific topics, writing style, or terminology (like "doubles tennis").

Imagine yourself, given the following paragraph:

"When making the jump from juniors to men’s or women’s curling, most skips switch to a front end position as a part of their learning experience. Not back-to-back world junior champion Charley Thomas. Although he was willing to take on a different role, the opportunity to join a team in talent-rich Alberta just didn’t come. So he formed his own team. "

This paragraphy says that:

1. Charley Thomas skipped curling practice for a talent-rich team in Alberta
2. Hairdresser Charley Thomas formed his own curling team with his friend Alberta
3. Charley Thomas is a skip switch junior champion.
4. Thomas formed his own sports team.

IF you don't know the sport, you don't know how the vocabulary works. It looks familiar but is unplaceable--especially if you're 8.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I would say the answer is that Thomas formed his own sports team.
The last sentence says that he formed his own team and from my past experience I learned that curling was a sport. Wrong? I don't know shit about the sport.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'll bet you're older than eight, too. nt
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Congratulations. But you're not 8, and you know that curling is a sport
Edited on Thu May-17-07 12:03 PM by Nikki Stone1
I guarantee you that a paragraph like that in the school where I taught for years would be confusing for most of the student body.


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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. No I am not 8 but I have taken many tests like this when I was 8 or around there.
Edited on Thu May-17-07 12:12 PM by Sapere aude
I always scored well on them and I think it is because I was curious and could use my reasoning ability. I had many teachers and most of them were not in school. I read a lot and talked to many adults about many subjects.

I am not trying to argue against your point. I just think it is not as black and white as stated. If there was a question that related to ghetto life, non ghetto kids may not get it right but some would even though they don't live in the ghetto. The learning could have come from other sources.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I have no way to verify your statements, hon, so we'll just have to leave it for now
When you've taught 8-year olds, come back and talk to me.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. LOL
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. I was a foster parent of an 8yr old. After six months with my wife and I, we got a call from
Edited on Thu May-17-07 12:48 PM by Sapere aude
his school. He got an award from his school as the most improved student. I asked them in which way was he the most improved. They replied in every way. We took and interest in his education. We did not rely on the school to be his sole teacher.

Don't tell me I need to teach 8 yr olds to know something! Hon!
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. As I said, I only have your word for it on these things
And anecdotal evidence is not a solid basis for an argument.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. But working with one at home is much different
from teaching 25 all day. Surely you can understand that.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Yes I can understand that. My point is that learning is not all done in the class room nor
is teaching all the responsibility of the teacher. A kid could get a question right by including information learned outside the classroom. A kid might learn what doubles tennis is by having a parent that was a fan of the Williams'.

I just have a hard time accepting that the test is unfair if the environment of the kid is not taken into account or what ever the OP was about.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I have spent nearly 30 years teaching low income kids
who come from the same kind of environment referred to in the OP. And no, they wouldn't have the foggiest idea what doubles tennis is.

This is called cultural bias in testing and it is a huge problem now that we have all these testing mandates.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Fine, we agree to disagree.
Edited on Thu May-17-07 02:15 PM by Sapere aude
This will probably piss you off but I think you enable the lack of education with that kind of thought. Sure there may be cultural bias but I think you need to find a way of over coming that rather than change the test.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Do you think it's easier to overcome cultural bias than change a test?
I wonder what all would be involved to overcome cultural bias in this country? That's a bit of a pipe dream.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Yes it is a pipe dream but we need to work on it. Like take intercity kids and expose them to
different surroundings and vise versa. Have summer camps where kids of different backgrounds spend time together. Teach kids about cultural differences. I don't have all the answers but I feel we don't help kids by keeping them "weak" educationally.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. I agree we need to work on it
but I don't think not knowing about doubles tennis makes someone weak educationally. There are also things poor kids know that wealthy kids are unlikely to know. If those things were on the test too, it might be more fair. But the test, written with an assumption kids know things that are known mainly by wealthier kids, isn't fair. Why can't they choose questions that don't assume people have had access to, for instance, expensive sports equipment?
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I would like to see a test that includes questions about both cultures and that kids are taught
Edited on Thu May-17-07 05:06 PM by Sapere aude
about both.

By being weak educationally I mean to try to make up for life's inherent unfairness by trying to protect kids from experiencing the unfairness and not equipping them to be able to deal with it and survive.
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #50
67. I am only talking about mitigating cultural bias on tests
not in society in general. Overcoming societal cultural biases is far beyond me.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. It isn't just cultural bias. How many eight year olds do you know that
have any knowledge about tennis at all? Not many even in the condo club set.

This question is age inappropriate as well as culturally biased.

If this line of questioning is to be used, then the preceeding paragraph should explain the terms that are used in language the average eight year old will understand.

After all, the tests are (supposed) to determine if the students are performing at age and grade appropriate levels. Not to see if they can decipher adult level language correctly.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. An "expert" in testing will tell you
they HAVE to have items like this to challenge the top kids. As long as we have to give normed tests, they will contain questions like this.

So, IMO, the answer is to stop administering normed tests. There is a way to test kids and check progress without comparing them to a normed group.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #44
64. When we base our opinions on a test we know is unfair,
why accept that test? Why not work to change it?
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #64
68. I have said the test should be changed...
I like the idea of end of course tests. I am against dropping the idea of dropping the test completely. Tests not only check the progress of the student they test the school. If students are not learning the basic curriculum we need to find out why and correct the problem. To do otherwise is to fail our children.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. What makes you think we haven't done that all along?
I have taught for 27 years and we have tested our kids every year of my career and for many years before I started. What is different now is the tests are not as good and we don't get prescriptive or diagnostic info from them, as we did before. Now the tests are designed to make the schools look bad so voucher proponents have ammunition for their battle.

NCLB is simply about discrediting public education in this country. It isn't about not leaving children behind. Far from that.
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Sorry, I can't buy that
Public education is a corner stone of America. It isn't about vouchers - which by the way I oppose. That is a desperate argument to discredit a movement to improve schools through accountability. While there is 27 + years of the "old" testing experience, NCLB came into being because people as diverse as Ted Kennedy and George Bush saw that the system was not working as it should. Yep - bipartisan. Standardized state testing in Texas stared before Bush.

The tests are standardized across the state to ensure that education is adequate across the state. There is diagnostic information available from the standardized tests. Texas maintains information on each question used in an exam - who answered correctly and who didn't broken down my . The testing program - industry - has grown to provide this information.

The tests are not as good? As good as what? The tests devised by the teacher? These classroom tests are still in use, yet I hear lots of complaints about A students who can't pass the state exam. I don't think the standardized test should intrude on the classroom test. It should verify the that the student is learning and the school is teaching the curriculum.

The state exams are built by state education agencies, with the assistance of professional test construction companies. Questions, mostly developed by teachers from the state, are field tested, checked for fact and bias and usually reviewed by groups of state teachers before they are used. They are or should be based on the state curricula. Sure there are variations among the states in details but this is the method I see in states I have looked at like Texas, Washington, Louisiana, and Utah.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. You are woefully misinformed
Edited on Fri May-18-07 11:17 AM by proud2Blib
We have had state tests for as long as most of us can remember. The very tests you praise in your last paragraph. Now we have state tests that fit NCLB requirements that are NOT AS COMPREHENSIVE as the ones we had BEFORE NCLB. In other words, assessment is not as rigorous as it was before the federal govt stepped in with NCLB.

In MO, nothing was broken. Our accountability system did not need fixing. We had a model testing program that was copied by many other states. But now NCLB mandates have weakened it. This is true in many other states. No, not every state had a comprehensive state wide assessment program, but most were moving in that direction, so NCLB has not created anything new. It has only generated bills for state and local education agencies and revenue for publishing companies.

FYI, the program we had in MO was largely the creation of our wonderful Dem Governor Mel Carnahan, in the 1990s. And in Arkansas, they also had a well-respected program that was put in place under Dem Gov Bill Clinton in the 1980s.

So NCLB has not only not been a complete waste of time and a false feather in bush's cap, but it has also managed to weaken good programs that didn't need to be altered.

This law needs to be thrown out. Let the states run their own schools.
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. States can run their own program now
Just opt out and don't take the federal money.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Wonder why more aren't doing just that?
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. It's a bad example
The answer is actually in the Curling question. The answer is NOT in the Tennis question.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
59. When I was 8, I frequently saw my mom get a "curling"
at the hairdresser's.

And, coming from a part of the country where winter sports were non-exist (ABC's Wide World of Sports notwithstanding), I would naturally assume that "curling" had something to do with hairdressing.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. Nice try, but this isn't a good example.
Edited on Thu May-17-07 12:38 PM by orangepeel68
I am on board with what you are trying to do, but the two questions don't compare. IMO, a child should be able to read your paragraph, which clearly states that a new team was formed, and choose "4" as the correct answer.

It isn't so with the question in the example, although I had to make a conscious effort to try to read the question as if I didn't know what "doubles tennis" is. The answer to that question, clearly, is NOT "b" (if neither lost, they aren't playing each other). But, either "a" or "c" could be right, depending on what doubles tennis is. If I didn't know it WASN'T a sport where two balls are used or that it didn't mean "a double header," then I wouldn't know the "right" answer.

One thing that this question shows, is that it is damned hard to write an applied multiple choice question. I'm sure that the person who wrote it believed it to be a good question. Many people reading it will think "that's easy" because it is easy if one knows what doubles tennis is and because it is difficult to forget what it is if one does.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. These are 3rd graders, not high schoolers
The inference skills you are using to analyze this question are not 3rd grade skills.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Agreed.
<<
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. I believe you misunderstood my point
I wasn't trying to answer the question. I was trying to show why the question would be difficult to answer for someone who didn't know what doubles tennis is. A smart child who had never heard of double tennis should have been able to rule out "they played each other" but would have no way to rule out the other answers.

In contrast, the example about curling (which I understood not to be a real question) wouldn't be difficult for a smart child to answer, even if he she knew nothing about curling. The last sentence said, essentially, "he formed his own team" and the correct answer is "he formed his own team."

IMO, the real question is culturally biased, but the mythical question that was given to show it doesn't do so effectively. No offense meant to the poster of that question, whose point I agree with.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. It was good enough to get the point across, which was its only goal
Edited on Thu May-17-07 01:03 PM by Nikki Stone1
If I were actually writing a test question, I wouldn't necessarily copy it directly from a real article on curling (which I did in this case).

Also, those things which seem "obvious" to adults are not always obvious to kids and teens. The terms in the first sentence of the curling example would have been enough to have stopped the reading process for some kids altogether. One of the things teachers do teach kids is how to keep going in a paragraph and look for context clues, even if they run across a word or term that totally confuses them. Your process for picking the correct answer required just that skill (among higher level inference skills), and you can thank your teachers for passing that on to you.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. The point is, the Tennis question is IMPOSSIBLE
It doesn't matter if you're a speed reading champion with a PHD in every language on earth. The curling question could conceivably be answered.

Problem with curling question: too hard.
Problem with Tennis question: impossible to answer.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. look, I'm sorry for dissing your question
but I don't think it gets the point across. I think it actually hurts the point, because you have posters arguing that they can answer the question, even though they don't know anything about curling. So then, you have to say, "well, you're not a 3rd grader" which weakens the point that the original question can't be answered by someone who doesn't understand the terms. Since I agree with that point, I thought I'd say something.

Your curling question has confusing terms in it, but knowing the correct answer doesn't depend on knowing what curling is in the same way that answering the real question depends on knowing what doubles tennis is.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. You do realize we are talking about 8 and 9 year old kids?
You guys keep using adult reasoning skills to analyze these questions. But 3rd graders are not adults.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. apparently, we're talking past each other
I am not trying to imply that 8 and 9 year old kids have the same level of reasoning skills that I have, and I am not analyzing the questions in order to answer them.

I am analyzing them in an attempt to show 1) why the ability to pick the right answer to the original question depends not on reading comprehension but on knowing the details of the sport and 2) why I believe that the curling question is not effective at making that point.

A question is not unfair simply because it is hard. Many kids could answer the tennis question correctly -- probably more than could answer the curling question correctly. But that's not really the problem, as long as a perfect score on the test is a requirement for passing. Not every answer on a test is supposed to be answered correctly by everyone who takes it (that's why we have As, Bs and Cs). A good test is supposed to discriminate based on ability. The problem with the tennis question is that it discriminates based on something else, too -- knowledge of types of tennis games which is likely to be correlated with socio-economic status.

But obviously, other posters on this thread have made that point much more effectively than I (notably DireStrike)
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
51. The issue is that wealthy kids are much more likely to have contact with tennis
like tennis lessons, access to tennis courts to play with parents, etc., than poor kids. Therefore, these kinds of questions are much easier for wealthy kids. Therefore, the test is inherently unfair. No one said it was impossible to answer.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. I had the funniest exchange with Tim Wise
on this issue. I'd written about my SAT experience where "regatta" was given multiple choice definitions. On the way to the bus I asked if anyone had gotten it. No one had a clue and ALL present had guessed it was a Baroque dance. Having grown up on the Chesapeake Bay, I explained.
KG was FURIOUS!!! "Now HOW THE HELL are WE supposed to know THAT??? WE'RE from HOLLIS NOT THE HAMPTONS!"

Tim had used that very same example in an article and received hate mail from the Skippys and Buffys that EVERYONE should KNOW what a regatta is. We had a good chuckle.

Cultural bias in designing standardized tests is a VERY OLD STORY.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Not on a reading comprehension test.
There would be similarly written questions, but with different subject matter, on the real test.

Anway, Palast's point is that wealthier children would have an advantage over poor children on this test. Which means that the test designers are either incredibly incompetent or deliberately skewing the scores to wealthier districts.

I doubt the teacher would tell them about doubles tennis ahead of time -- it's unlikely that the real test would ALSO have questions about tennis... but might have questions about POLO...
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. "...or deliberately skewing the scores to wealthier districts."
NO!!! Say it's not possible!! :sarcasm:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. The teachers don't know what is on the test beforehand
For that particular question, the teachers would only know there was a story and comprehension questions. And probably what kind of comprehension question (recall, inference, main idea, etc) But no, the teachers see the test items when the kids do.
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. So, that's not even a "main idea" style question!
That question requires you to know :wtf: "doubles tennis" is, with no explanation at all as to what it is!

Whoever thought that question up needs to go back to school themselves!

This is just freaking horrid. :grr:
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Exactly. Imagine yourself, given the following paragraph:
Edited on Thu May-17-07 11:56 AM by Nikki Stone1


"When making the jump from juniors to men’s or women’s curling, most skips switch to a front end position as a part of their learning experience. Not back-to-back world junior champion Charley Thomas. Although he was willing to take on a different role, the opportunity to join a team in talent-rich Alberta just didn’t come. So he formed his own team. "

This paragraphy says that:

1. Charley Thomas skipped curling practice for a talent-rich team in Alberta
2. Hairdresser Charley Thomas formed his own curling team with his friend Alberta
3. Charley Thomas is a skip switch junior champion.
4. Thomas formed his own sports team.

IF you don't know the sport, you don't know how the vocabulary works. It looks familiar but is unplaceable--especially if you're 8.
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. At least, in this case, the final sentence is the answer.
Most kids would probably pick that because it stands out. But in the OP's example it's not that clear unless you already know that "doubles tennis" means two players on the same "side". Still, yours is another example that is way too esoteric for most 8-year-olds.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. The vocabulary in the paragraph relies on the understanding of a specific sociolinguistic context
And a context based on a social background that is not common to all students across the socioeconomic scale.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Not really, no.
I would just read the last sentence and assume that it was talking about a sports team. All the other answers can be eliminated through close reading. And yes, I would have done it at 8, also.

But then, I'm a pretty damn good test taker.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. It's called cultural bias and it is found in every test
I remember one time I was teaching 1st grade and the kids were asked to identify a "parasol". Not one kid in my class answered that one correctly.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Parasol? Is that on the curriculum list for 1st grade?
That't not even a word in common use.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. No of course it wasn't in our curriculum
Made me so mad. Why give a test with even one question not one kid can answer correctly?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I'm surprised that "corset" and "smelling salts" weren't on the test as well
Sort of like putting words from this list on a test for adults:

http://www.brownielocks.com/words.html
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. LOL I am bookmarking that
Thanks!
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Me too haha
Although I actually came across "autocthonic" in a Phillip Dick book. Not really a sane reference to go by, though.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
30. Thats a horribly worded question.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. It's pretty typical
of the questions on our NCLB tests.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Reminds me of those stupid chain emails, "You couldn't pass this test from 1900"
With questions like "How many bushels to a barrel" and crap like that.

Its not that I can't do basic math. I just don't know the converstion factor, as it is something that is no longer relevant.

I'd like to see someone from that celebrated era write out a php program to calculate the above problem. I know I could. Does that make me smarter than them?


(the answer, obviously, is "yes", lol)
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Yes you are one of the smartest people I know
:)
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
36. Spelling and her boss should be tried for felony child neglect for
what they have done to our children and grandchildren. She should be stripped of her teaching license and never allowed near a schoolground again.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Is she even a teacher?
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
46. This article is 16 months old?
Seems a little late to dredge this up. The question is culturally biased. Not a good test. Hopefully a good state ed. department and a competent test prep company would catch this. Tests are a tough deal - some people are good at them and some are not. It may not befair but life is full of tests so kids better get used them.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. The law is still the same
and I will bet money that the test has not changed. We don't change our tests in my state every year.
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. I'm sure we don't agree on the law
I think NCLB needs some tuning, but the concept is valid. I think the end of course change being considered here in Texas and in Washington has some merit. As to the New York test, I don't know if it is the same. The tests questions should be changed and any question determined unsuitable should be removed. Used questions should be released to the public.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. It is incredibly expensive to write these tests
I have worked on the teacher team in my state that writes our tests. I have also helped score them. It would be impossible for any state to rewrite the test every year.

We are able to access released items to use in our classrooms. I think that is fairly standard in most states.

I think the concept of NCLB is horrid. Schools should be controlled locally and the federal govt needs to get out of education. This law is a disaster. In my state, we had a GREAT accountability system before NCLB. But to meet the mandates the feds put in place, we have had to water down our standards. Our test is not as good as it used to be. We expect less from our kids than we did 10 years ago. And I know there are other states in the same boat we are in.

There are just so many things wrong with this law, it's hard to know where to start. I favor abolishing it completely. I also favor dismantling the US Dept of Education and allowing the states to have local control of schools.
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. Perhaps we should agree to disagree about NCLB
I agree about local control of schools in many ways. Still, we are a highly mobile society and kids moving from state to state have some problems with differing curricula. The curricula could be more uniform - but I don't think that is an NCLB issue. Then there is the need to produce better educated students. Universities complain that students arrive unprepared for college level courses. Businesses complain about the lack of ability of graduates. We need more engineers but we can't seem to teach math. The tests clearly indicate problems.

Sure the tests can be improved. As I said earlier, end of course tests would be an improvement. Take the test while the information is still fresh. And, it should end the "teaching to the test" bugaboo too.

I find the paragraph on what NCLB has done to your state ironic. I lived in Kansas City and have family there so I have followed the KCISD struggle for the last 20 years. It didn't have a great accountability system. Is the district even accredited now? Does the state still run the district? More than anything, the Kansas City experience has shown me that money alone is not the answer. I know it must be old (about contemporary to the New York article?) and painful to hear people recall, but didn't 60 Minutes do a segment on the district's problems and come to this same conclusion? I too would rail against NCLB or any other distraction if I taught there.

So, I will agree to disagree.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. No the state has never run the KCSD
and yes, the district is accredited. Sounds like your opinion of the KCSD is misinformed at best.

And since I believe we have yet to fully fund education in any state in this country, I find it unfair to judge a few years of good funding in KC and say money is not the answer. The KC schools were grossly underfunded for over 30 years. It's hard to fix the problems caused by years of neglect in just a few years.
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I may be misinformed...
the KSMSD home page on accredition indicates you have 64 of 100 points towards accreditation. Provisional accredition it appears. It may be the page is a little out of date - it is a little unclear in the last paragraph.

On the funding, it seems to me nearly 20 years (a generation) of good funding should have shown some progress. Most large city school districts have funding problems. Funding is basically a local problem. Federal funding in all areas comes with strings. NCLB simply requires accountability. Saying it is "unfair" is a poor excuse.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #58
63. Where did you get the idea there has EVER been 20 years of "good funding"?
There was not even a "generation" of kids who went through the KC schools with decent funding. Those who started kindergarten under deseg funding ended 12th grade without it. And yes, you are indeed misinformed about accreditation. You must not know that there are several other suburban districts in the KC area that are also provisionally accredited.

NCLB requires more than accountability and it is far from simple. The state of MO had a great accountability system in place before NCLB. Teachers in MO trained teachers from all over the US, because MO's program was so highly respected. It's a graphic example of why local control is far better than federal standards.
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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-18-07 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. The discussion was on the Kansas City District
I just don't see how MO could have such great accountability system when the progress of KC is a national example of the need for NCLB. MO let the KC district fall to this low point. I peg the beginning of funding improvements at about 20 years because that is when I remember the Federal judge adding to the Kansas City city income tax that I had to pay for school I didn't use. Then I watched the rebuild of the school infrastructure, hiring of teachers from other countries, transportation of students from other districts by taxi, proliferation of curricula in magnet and academy schools and many other ideas that quite obviously failed. If the disease of educational mediocrity is spreading from the Kansas City district to other districts in the area it merely reinforces the dire need for NCLB to place accountability.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
60. I can tell you this: the person who wrote that test question needs to
go back to school to learn basic sentence structure and clarity.

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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-17-07 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
61. It's called inferring a word meaning through context clues and word origins.
a legit state standard. Double = 2. An 8-year-old should know that.
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