UAW praises Rahm, Obama and calls Ratner book 'a bunch of baloney'

[geek tragedy]

"It's a bunch of baloney, I think it's a diversion, " King said in an e-mail response to revelations made in an upcoming book that White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel at one point declared "F--- the UAW" during internal administration debates about the bailout. The Detroit News published a story and excerpts from a draft manuscript, which was provided by the publisher, Houghton Mifflin, ahead of an Oct. 14 publication date.

. . .

"If it wasn't for Rahm Emanuel,... if it wasn't for President Obama and the Democratic leadership in the House and Senate, we wouldn't have an auto industry. Millions of more people would be out of work today," King said during an interview Friday morning on CNBC, a financial news cable channel.

"They have done nothing but to help the middle class in America. I appreciate the Obama administration. I appreciate what they have done for workers in general. Did they do good for the auto industry?

"Yes they did. Did Rahm Emanuel play a role in that? Yes, he did. I appreciate him."

http://detnews.com/article/20100903/AUTO01/9030441/1478/rss

The people who actually care about the UAW and its workers give Obama and Rahm high marks. The people spreading the "Fuck the UAW" story are stirring up anti-Obama hate in order to drive web traffic (Huffington Post and Firedoglake) and don't give a shit about the UAW.

[johnaries]

1. K&R for exposing the truth.

[NYC_SKP]

52. Me, too. (nt)

:patriot:

:kick:

[depakid]

2. I guess that's why they backed Blanche Lincoln...

[geek tragedy]

5. Non sequitur.

The only people claiming Obama wronged the UAW are those who seek to financially profit from bashing the administration.

[depakid]

11. Absolutely relevant to whether the administration's union friendly or not

-just as the decision to tax health benefits (as opposed to the House's decision to use progressive taxation on the wealthiest with the most ability to pay) is relevant.

Sorry Charlie, no one in their right mind is buying what you're selling- because it doesn't comport with reality based on the record.

[geek tragedy]

13. Reality is that the admin saved the UAW from complete

destruction and its members from permanent unemployment.

Sorry, Charlie, but the UAW says you're full of it.

[depakid]

15. LOL- perhaps you didn't pay attention to what's happened to salaries and benefits

Bottom line is that followers will say anything- irrespective of the record- or the foreseeable consequences.

Which is one reason why you're poised to lose and lose badly.

Just as many of us predicted after the pattern became clear.

[geek tragedy]

30. "you're poised to lose and lose badly"

The use of the 2nd person here indicates that you are not a Democrat but rather a Nader/Green party type who wants Democrats to lose.

It also explains why you're here bashing the Obama administration for a program the UAW itself supports.

Why should we believe your crowd over the UAW?

[scheming daemons]

56. depakid's slip is showing...

Actually.. depakid is in Australia, and is working against the Obama administration from afar.


God knows why.... but depakid is not, and has never been, a Democrat.

[geek tragedy]

64. Really, an Australian who has nothing in stake in US elections?

It always amazes me how people halfway across the globe act as if they know something about the US political system.

[depakid]

86. For 'em or agin 'em is all some people know

The same way Bush supporters behave- right along with the false attributions bogus assertions forming the basis for personal attacks when confronted with unpleasant facts.

[scheming daemons]

92. It's easy for you to be idealistic when you don't have to deal with the consequences

Those of us living here have to live with the results of the November elections.

For you, it's theory.

For us, it's practice.

[depakid]

105. We saw the writing on the wall and warned you all about what would happen

In my case alone over the past 20 months I can't even count the times where I posted about the consequences of alienating or gratuitously insulting key constituencies, cozying up to corporate interests, enabling and legitimizing Republicans and their ideology by "reaching out" and looking for bipartisan "solutions."

Starting with the half measure stimulus that basic arithmetic (as well as competent economic analysis) showed wouldn't close enough of the output gap nor ameliorate the most of the anti-stimulatory effects of state budget cuts.

Didn't take Nostrdamus to see what was coming.

Fact is (call it theory if you like) even successful governments that solve or avoid major problems- as we saw with Australia's labor government, take a huge beating at the hands of the electorate when they're perceived as unwilling or incapable of fighting for what they believe in.

And the converse is also true- parties and governments that are perceived as standing up and fighting gain support even when their policy positions aren't supported by majorities of the electorate.

So, yeah, we were smart enough not to stay in Oregon- much as we love the place, being part of the US, we don't see a very bright future given the structural impediments to responsible government that you have in place.

The Citizen's United case only makes things that much worse.

[canetoad]

126. Try as hard as you like

But you won't bring the American polarized ways of politics to Australia.

Fact is (call it theory if you like) even successful governments that solve or avoid major problems- as we saw with Australia's labor government, take a huge beating at the hands of the electorate when they're perceived as unwilling or incapable of fighting for what they believe in.

High falutin' bullshit. I'll tell you why Labor took a beating; we don't like backroom deals. Oh, I know they are part and parcel of politics. Yes, in a parliamentary system leaders are taken down all the time. Remember the times of Downer, Hewson, Peacock etc? Beasley & Latham? We are used to a quick turnaround of parliamentary party leaders, it's part of political life.

The difference with the deposition of Kevin Rudd was the fact that THERE WAS NO FOREWARNING. No indication that a challenge was in the offing. In all previous changes of leadership the bones have been cast about, the press gallery have their day or three of rampant speculation and the party huddles to have it's vote. The leader may prevail or they may not. All part of a day's politics.

Now, I happen to think that Kevin Rudd could very well have lost this year's election if he remained leader. Had the labor party gone through the motions in the accepted and time honoured Aussie way of a few rumblings, a challenger or two stepping up and a leadership vote being held after an appropriate amount of time, then this past election's results would have been quite different. Believe me.

[geek tragedy]

94. When you start supplying facts instead of

vapid, reflexive criticisms in the same manner that Michael Steele does, get back to us.

[Catshrink]

18. By busting their wages and benefits...

but what did they do about banksters bonuses and CEO pay at the big banks during the bailout scam? Wage concessions are only for the little people.

The line between Democrat and Republican is very fuzzy; the line between haves and have nots (or much less) is very clear.

[geek tragedy]

29. The UAW disagrees that Obama busted their wages and benefits.

Why are you calling the UAW liars?

[Catshrink]

35. Read

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=367x28297

[geek tragedy]

36. Yes, they kept their jobs and got an equity stake

in the companies in exchange for reduced wages and benefits.

The alternative was the entire industry going bankrupt and everyone getting a 100% reduction in wages in benefits.

[Hannah Bell]

140. the workers didn't get an equity stake. you're misinformed. the international

got an equity stake. big difference, the implications of which are yet to play out.

one of them would seem to be that the officers of the international have an interest in sweating their members.

[grantcart]

124. and its up to us to tell the Unions what is best for them!!!

[phleshdef]

12. Does that bother you? Are you now unsupportive of the UAW then?

Or do you want to have it both ways?

[depakid]

14. Nope- I just don't care for shallow equivocation

either way.

The record is what it is.

And in the case of taxing what are largely union benefits- that was particularly telling since the House decision was backed by a rather sizable majority of the electorate- whereas taxing health care benefits was polling at around 35%.

Obama's followers really have only one argument here- and that is that Republicans are even worse.

[geek tragedy]

32. No, we have the UAW saying Obama did them a solid.

Let's see--third party Obama bashers vs the UAW on Obama's record of helping the UAW.

Not even close.

[phleshdef]

46. Sidestepping the issue. The UAW says they were treated good by this admin, you disagree.

But their word on how they were treated trumps your word on how they were treated. This isn't something you can talk your way around.

[SidDithers]

53. +1...

"their word on how they were treated trumps your word on how they were treated."

Good post.

Sid

[depakid]

88. I could care less about one person's or another's he said/she said

I look at the record over the course of the last 20 month as the basis for analysis of whether the administration's (or the Senate's) actions have been labor friendly or not- which is likely the way a majority of the rank and file look at it, too.

And sorry to say- *that* trumps someone's obligatory opinion- or in the case of some on this board, knee jerk reactions about most anything involving their leader.

[POAS]

54. Are you UAW? I am!

Retired in June from a 1st and 2nd tier supplier.

Our jobs were on the way out. The company as a whole (although our division was barely profitable) was losing money and losing contracts as I had not seen in 37 years in the industry.

Since just before the first of the year things have turned around sharply. The company is calling back those that had been laid off, some for nearly 2 years, and are hiring new skilled trades people.

The one thing the local I belonged to, the company and the rank and file all agree on. The Obama administration saved our asses by getting our best and biggest customers back on track.

Those are hard facts from the factory floor. If you are UAW then perhaps you have had a different outcome or perhaps your just rehashing the pablum of others.

[scheming daemons]

57. The UAW says the Obama administration has been good to them....

..you're saying that the UAW is lying about how good Obama has been to them.


You're basically telling us to believe what YOU have to say about the UAW over what the UAW has to say about the UAW.


They've disproven the implication in all of the Rahm "Fuck you, UAW" threads. Completely disproven it.

[Hannah Bell]

142. No, Bob King is saying it. Bob King isn't "the UAW". He's part of the leadership that gave them-

selves pay raises this year while colluding to rachet down their memberships' pay & benefits.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9083987&mesg_id=9088231

[bvar22]

151. ^The only post on this thread telling the truth ^

Thank You, Hannah Bell.

"Bob King is saying it. Bob King isn't "the UAW". He's part of the leadership that gave themselves pay raises this year while colluding to rachet down their memberships' pay & benefits."

Individual autoworkers at certain plants may still have jobs, but at lower wages and reduced benefits.
In the current Jobless Recovery climate that IS something for some individuals to feel relieved about, but it is ALSO a further step in busting Organized LABOR overall and suppressing the Working Class.

For comparison, look at the concessions President Obama demanded from the Wall Street Bankers for their massive bailout.
If you can't see a Double Standard, its because you don't want to look.

[Orrex]

3. Excellent. Kudos to the UAW for clearing out the bullshit.

K/R

[Number23]

120. I agree. Kicked and rec'd

[Scurrilous]

4. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Tippy]

6. K&R For truth and justice...Bring back the Unions

[geek tragedy]

9. The Obama haters are out unreccing this.

They just can't stand for the truth to come out.

[Scurrilous]

26. Indeed. n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

7. Very interesting. Thank you!!

So many agendas and distortions it's hard to tell good news when we see it. There are many things I dislike as to how this administration has handled things, but this is a perfect example of agenda and distortion, diverting from the GOOD, positive things that have been done.

We can still be pissed, push for things being better, yet acknowledge good along the way.

K&R

:thumbsup:

[geek tragedy]

8. Rahm Emmanuel drops the F-bomb regarding just about everyone.

It was Obama himself who joked that when Emmanuel's middle finger got cut off he was rendered mute.

[OneGrassRoot]

19. I know, that's why I didn't doubt he said it....

so I was glad to see this article confirming that, from the UAW leadership perspective, they have a good relationship.

:hi:

[TreasonousBastard]

33. .

:rofl:

Thanks! I missed that one.

[still_one]

10. The actions of the administration speak volumes compared to this story

If it was up to the repukes, gm and chrysler would be history

[mzmolly]

17. Absolutely right.

:)

[still_one]

24. and this is a perfect campaign message to labor also /nt

[mzmolly]

25. Exactly. It will fit well with the infrastructure project Obama

is touting of late. :hi:

"Republicans didn't want to extend unemployment benefits and they don't want to help put America to work." ;) BTW, it's time Obama started using the word Republicans vs. "the minority party".

[still_one]

27. Agreed, I am sick and tired of the timid responses from the Democratic party. Call them out

by name

[mzmolly]

16. Doing my part to send this to the greatest.

:hi:


"The people who actually care about the UAW and its workers give Obama and Rahm high marks. The people spreading the "Fuck the UAW" are stirring up anti-Obama hate in order to drive web traffic (Huffington Post and Firedoglake) and don't give a shit about the UAW."

The quote sounds so trite and made up. IF Emmanuel said it, I'm sure it was in jest, in response to all the kerfuffle about his saying things of this nature.

[geek tragedy]

37. I'm sure Emmanuel did say it, but so what?

What counts is what got done. And the UAW is extremely grateful for what the admin did.

The UAW has credibility on this.

The folks acting like this quote is the most important metric have no credibility.

[mzmolly]

41. I honestly believe if he did

it was in jest. Either that, or it's his go to phrase on every issue. ;) I'm with you though. I simply don't care either way. :hi:

[tridim]

20. Hmm, I wonder what other BS is being amplified daily on DU?

I'd estimate 99% of it.

[NJmaverick]

21. K&R

[one_voice]

22. Thanks for posting....

it's always good to hear BOTH sides, before rushing to judgment.

[stray cat]

23. So now the UAW are traitors as well by DU standards?

[TreasonousBastard]

34. Not by DU standards. Just the "empty barrel" contingent's.

[iamthebandfanman]

148. howd you gather that assumption? n/t

[azmouse]

28. Thanks for the truth on this issue!

K&R

[Cha]

31. That was my first question when I heard

about it.. was it on tape and who said it?

[tkmorris]

38. The UAW didn't praise anyone, Bob King did

In the actual UAW, you know, the people who actually WORK at the plants, Bob King is not a real popular guy. In fact he is generally viewed as a complicit jackass who takes advantage of his position instead of actually fighting for the people he is supposed to represent. Kind of reminds me of someone, can't quite put my finger on who...

[Hannah Bell]

43. +100.

[Kahuna]

48. I'm sure that the UAW are thankful to the administration for saving their jobs.

Don't you think?

[geek tragedy]

67. No, the people in here disagreeing with the UAW head

literally think Obama does nothing right. Nothing.

They piss on him because he saved the UAW instead of letting it burn to the ground. Just like they would have pissed on him for not doing anything.

Reflexive, relentless, viciously partisan attacks similar to Fox News is all they have to offer when the subject comes to their most hated politician ever.

[geek tragedy]

62. Are you a member of the UAW, or are you just smearing

the UAW president because he said positive things about a Presidential administration you despise?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

147. If that were in any way, shape, or form true, he'd be replaced.

But thanks for playing.

[tavalon]

39. Give credit where credit is due

There is little to praise Rahm for but if the UAW praises him I will let that stand. Yay for Our Turdblossom.

[quiet.american]

40. Now let's see if those whipping up the furor spread King's quote far and wide, too.

I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks for posting, GeekTragedy.

[geek tragedy]

73. No, they engage in character assassination against the UAW head

because he judges Obama on policy rather than knee-jerk bashing.

[JTFrog]

42. Kick & Rec!

[Hannah Bell]

44. this thread is a laff riot. uaw membership fell 18% 2008-2009, that's what a fucking great thing

the "bankruptcy" was for the membership.

gm's auto division was profitable before the bankruptcy. labor costs were less than 10% of the cost of a new vehicle. gm was (& is) building new plant in china & elsewhere while they were crying poor.

the losses were all from their financial speculation arm.

the reporting on this is crap, bob king's kudos are crap.

[scheming daemons]

58. 18% versus 100%. It would have been 100% without the auto bailout

[Hannah Bell]

61. your proof for this assertion is?

two months before gm went to the government for handouts it was building a new research center in china.

GM's U.S. employment reached 618,365 in 1979.

Today, about 40K.


GM working on Chinese Tech center
16 September 2008

GM recently started work on a new R&D center in China, with the cornerstones being layed in formal pomp earlier today. GM have reportedly poured 2.5 billion USD into the new R&D center, which is located in the New Pudong area of Shanghai. The building, once completed, will house 2500 workers, and 300 of these workers will be directly involved in R&D.

http://www.chinacartimes.com/2008/09/16/gm-working-on-chinese-tech-center/

It's since built two more. During its "bankruptcy". Plus manufacturing plant.

Today, GM broke ground for another R&D Center in China, called the GM China Advanced Technical Center. The new facility is in addition to existing R&D centers in China, including the Pan Asia Technical Automotive Center (PATAC) in Shanghai and the China Automotive Energy Research Center (CAERC) in Beijing.

The new facility is adjacent to the GM International Operations and GM China Headquarters in Shanghai. With 300 engineers in 62 test labs and nine research labs, it will develop advanced vehicle designs and technology solutions for GM on a domestic and global basis, said GM in a press release. The center will be part of GM’s global engineering and design network, and provide input to GM affiliates the world over.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gm-moves-advanced-rd-to-china/

[geek tragedy]

63. The fact that GM and Chysler needed to be bailed out

with their bondholders forced to take a bath.

Had Obama not interceded, the unions would have been busted.

[scheming daemons]

65. GM/Chrysler: "Please bail us out or we're filing Chapter 7"

Chapter 7 means... sell off all assets. Liquidate the company.


Without Obama's bailout, GM and Chrysler would no longer exist. Period.

[geek tragedy]

66. The bondholders and hedge funds would have taken over

the assets. And, of course they would want union plants. :sarcasm:

[BzaDem]

85. Perhaps Hannah thinks Chapter 7 is a chapter in a book that can be skipped.

Does anyone REALLY need to prove that GM would have liquidated and fired everyone had they not been bailed out and gone into Chapter 7?

[polmaven]

104. And all of that has what, exactly,

to do with this adminstation in general and Rahm Emmanuel in particular? You do remember that President Obama didn't take office until 2009, right? What am I missing?

[geek tragedy]

60. As opposed to a 100% decrease and 100% unemployment.

GM was going to go bankrupt. So was Chrysler. Every single one of those jobs would have disappeared.

And then Ford would have been able to bust the UAW with ease.

No, nobody is going to trust you over the UAW.

[rhett o rick]

75. GM wasnt going bankrupt. They werent making money in the USofA

they were making tons of money world wide. This was a huge scam on the pretense of saving some jobs. How did the bailout money fix GM? It just allowed them to continue until next time they want to blackmail the American taxpayers. GM is an international company, they dont give a shit about American workers.
If Obama really wanted to help the American auto industry he would have passed single payer health care so American workers could be competitive with foreign workers. He could have imposed tariffs to even the playing field. Nope he gave money to the corporations, the uber-wealthy corporations.

Is everything fixed for the UAW, or is this just another bubble?

[geek tragedy]

77. So, you wanted him to let GM and Chysler just close down

their American plants.

That would have helped the UAW and its members, how?

The single payer pony is a non-sequitur.

[rhett o rick]

87. Please do not put words in my mouth. I want the Pres to change things so that

the American branch of GM can compete with the rest of the modern world, not give them a random to buy time. GM was not going bankrupt. They threatened to close their American plants to get money from the American taxpayers. The bailout money did nothing to undo what is causing GM America to fail.

Again, can you spell bubble?

Single payer would go a long way to help the UAW. The bailout was temporary.

[geek tragedy]

97. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

"GM was not going bankrupt."

General Motors DID go bankrupt.

However, it was able to be continued on as an ongoing business as via Chapter 11 instead of getting liquidated by creditors in a Chapter 7 proceeding.

[rhett o rick]

114. GM is an international corporation and did not go bankrupt. They may have pulled off some

bullshit in the USofA but the corporation wasnt going bankrupt. Companies are moving out of the country. Figure it out. GM told the government that they were shutting down business in the US if the taxpayers didnt come up with a ransom. I sympathize with the workers but they are pawns in this game of extortion. GM will be back for more.

[geek tragedy]

115. Sorry, you are just stating blatant falsehoods.

Which makes you unworthy of further dialogue. Have a nice night.

[Hannah Bell]

144. They're not moving out of the country? They've built at least 5 facilities in china alone since

they started their "bankruptcy"

& went from 0 cars sold there to nearly 2 million in 10 years.

read the writing on the wall & quit calling people liars.

we're going to be buying chinese cars made by slaves.

[rhett o rick]

149. I am "unworthy" of dialog? Well excuuuse me. nm

[Ignis]

168. What a shitty thing to say to another DUer.

But we should be used to it by now, I suppose.

[LWolf]

45. So...Rahm did not say "Fuck the UAW?" That's a lie?

If you don't have some evidence to prove that he didn't say it, I'd suggest that it's Rahm himself stirring up the shit.

"Retarded." "Fuck the UAW." How could you expect calm waters and smooth sailing?

[Kahuna]

47. What difference does it make? Did he DO the right thing? Yes he did. nt

[LWolf]

49. Bullshit. He DID the wrong thing when he verbally attacked the left and the UAW. nt

[geek tragedy]

59. No one who cares about labor issues would pretend

that a reported F-bomb by Rahm Emmanuel trumps Obama saving the UAW and the auto industry.

Anyone who says so cares about bashing the President moreso than they do the American worker.

[readmoreoften]

70. "saving the auto industry"

Ask the average UAW worker how much they earn. Rahm & Obama are not union friendly. They are union ambivalent. They'll bust unions if it suits them. They'll work with them if they don't get in their way.

[geek tragedy]

71. There is a UAW member in this thread, and he/she says

you are dead wrong on this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9083987&mesg_id=9085456

[BzaDem]

78. Shush with your facts! The perennial Obama bashers don't care what the UAW thinks about Rahm!

That would contradict the narritive they are trying to peddle! Silly you!

[geek tragedy]

79. It's quite remarkable--the elected head of the union

refutes MSM-fueled Obama bashing, and they respond with character assassination against union leadership.

[Hannah Bell]

137. it's not like the members voted for him. it's a rigged delegate system.

1200 delegates voted & he got 97% of the "vote".


Here's how conventions work:

At the UAW Constitutional Convention every Concession Caucus member who holds an appointed—not elected—position is on the convention floor controlling the crowd. The appointees applaud on cue and they boo on cue. It’s an organized huzzah choir. For example, when delegate Cathy Abney courageously nominated Gary Walkowicz for President she concluded her nominating speech by saying:

"Our union faces a huge crisis, a real emergency, brought on by past policies. We need to do a radical 180-degree turn, awayfrom policies of concessions. We need policies that put theworkers’ interests first.” At that point hundreds of Concession Caucus appointees loudly booed.

What could be more revealing? A delegate who says that UAW leaders should “put the workers’ interests first” is loudly booed by Concession Caucus appointees.

http://www.factoryrat.com/factoryrat/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12149


Go ahead, read how the "leadership" voted themselves pay raises while they're colluding in racheting down their memberships' wages.

Same link.


"On the vote for President, they waited until King had it by the shear numbers, stopped the vote and said King had it but invited all those who were voting for Gary to come up and place their votes. To make sure they knew who their dissidents were.

The International isn't liking it now that the truth is getting out about the raises for the Executive Board. They subdued the press and thought they had everyone fooled."

http://www.factoryrat.com/factoryrat/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12149

[Hannah Bell]

111. ...read their annual reports. 2007:

GM needs bailout, workers need to sacrifice? Read their annual report.
Thu Dec 04th 2008, 02:01 PM



P. 6:

GM's core automotive business generated 178 billion in 2007, an improvement of 7 bill over 2006.

"Adjusted" automotive earnings = 553 million.

Total adjusted net loss (excluding "special items") = 23 million,

"reflecting a 1.1 billion loss attributed to our 49% stake in GMAC".

i.e. the loss comes from their finance dept., specifically MORTGAGE LOANS - p. 7 - NOT their auto division.


p. 7:

With "special items", the corp lost 38.7 billion: "almost entirely attributable to the non-cash 38.3 billion special charge in the 3rd quarter related a non-cash valuation allowance against deferred tax assets. The valuation has no impact on cash and does not reflect...long-term financial outlook".

My read: scam whereby they're allowed to book pseudo loss to short the taxman.

Now running at 9 billion less in structural costs than 2005-06.

Pension funds "20% overfunded" - don't expect to have to make any contributions to pension funds in the forseeable future.

Salaried retiree healthcare "capped", hourly healthcare now paid from "independent trust", resulting in savings in future of 6 billion/yr.


p. 8:

Sold more than 9 million cars, 4th time in GM history.

GM Europe fastest-growing car corp there, up 9%;
#1 in China,
Latin america up 19%.
59% of GM sales now outside US.


p. 11:

Will reduce US costs 5 billion more by 2011, continue growth overseAs, forecast half of sales by 2017.


p. 15: russia!

p. 16: china!

p. 18: s. africa! europe!

p. 47:

"in 2007, the automotive industry continued to show strong sales & revenue growth," sales growth of 19% 2003-2007, revenue growth = 7%/yr, 9.4 vehicles sold 2007 v. 9.1 2004.

GM share grew in all markets EXCEPT GM North America. What a coincidence. They're booming everywhere else, but just can't get it together in the US.

p. 52

TOTAL LABOR, BENEFITS, PENSIONS (including non-manufacturing such as marketing) = 53 billion, 13 billion of which = ADMINISTRATIVE (7.3% of revenues).

Production labor/retirees = approx 22% of revenues.


p. 68

7 billion spent on "property"
10 billion spent on securities & acquisitions

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hannah%20Bell/56

http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/docs/fin_data/gm07ar/download/gm07ar_full.pdf

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hannah%20Bell/56



In 2007, GM said it spent $4.6 billion in 2007 on health care for its one million employees and retirees, and their dependents. (This is their GLOBAL workforce/dependents).


$4.6 billion/$178 billion = 2.6% of revenues. Not a particularly large burden.

http://omgili.com/newsgroups/sci/environment/8f0a285c-ed53-4d2f-8970-777dde232bf7u29g2000progooglegroupscom.html

[Hannah Bell]

113. the worker may say so; doesn't mean he's informed or correct.

[BzaDem]

118. Then again, so far in this thread, you "saying so" has implied the opposite is true.

For example, you say that 0 jobs is somehow better than the tens of thousands that were saved. That is obviously not true.

[Hannah Bell]

125. please link me to where i say "0 jobs is better than tens of thousands that were saved".

#1: I don't believe that "tens of thousands of jobs were saved".
#2: I don't believe the bankruptcy was necessary -- except to make it easier for GM to shed jobs & obligations & bring in cut-rate workers.

During the financial crisis that led to GM filing for bankruptcy protection last year, the automaker closed 14 factories and shed more than 65,000 blue-collar jobs in the U.S. through buyouts, early retirement offers and layoffs. The company now employs about 40,000 hourly workers in the U.S.

http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2010/04/gm_ceo_says_government_loans_h.html

[BzaDem]

127. "I don't believe the bankruptcy was necessary"

Yeah. Them losing billions every month and not being able to make payments on their bonds would not force them to file for bankruptcy.

:rofl:

So let me get this straight. Let's assume for a minute that all of their books were cooked. They were not losing money every month, and they had plenty of cash lying around to pay their bondholders.

What would have prevented them from filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy anyway, allowing them to abrogate their union agreements? Clearly, the court was satisfied that their books were NOT cooked, and that they actually NEEDED to file for bankruptcy. Under your magical scenario, even if Obama DIDN'T step in, there would be nothing that would cause the court not to accept their situation with a bailout any more than with a bailout.

So even under your own made up scenario, with no bailout, they could have easily filed for chapter 11 and abrogated all of their union agreements. That means that under your own scenario, the bailout could not have possibly allowed them to abrogate one union agreement they wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

You know, all of your posts on this thread require creating a magical alternate reality where EVERYTHING that is a basic fact is thrown out the window. One could seriously get a great picture of what the ACTUAL facts are by taking the exact opposite of everything you have said here.

[Hannah Bell]

128. Because the gov't money & muscle let them get it done quick & on terms they liked -- instead

of spending 4 years like delphi. And with no significant interruption in production. Without considering reorg plans of creditors.

I repeat, GM was building new plant in china while it was in "bankruptcy."


“GM has clearly stated that all of its businesses in the Asia Pacific region – and that includes Holden – continue normal operations and are not directly impacted by this process in the US. “No operations outside the US are included in the court filing or court supervised process.

Mr Reuss said Holden was a GM subsidiary but was also a separate corporate entity under Australian law in its own right. He said GM had assured Holden that it would continue to play a role in a restructured global business."

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=63401.

[geek tragedy]

130. The alternative was dissolving the union contract and selling the assets

to the bondholders.

[BzaDem]

131. Yeah, Hannah keeps talking as if there would be a reorganization without the bailout

as opposed to a liquidation of all assets in Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

[Hannah Bell]

135. building new plant in china during the "bankruptcy"

[BzaDem]

143. Again, so what?

Nothing you are saying even pretends to provide support for the fact that they would not be undergoing a chapter 7 liquidation, with all assets sold to the bondholders, if there were no bailout.

You keep posting irrelevant junk that isn't applicable at all. Your subject-changing essentially proves you have no argument.

[Hannah Bell]

158. only if one is willfully blind.

[Hannah Bell]

134. The fact that you say so doesn't make it fact.

[Vinnie From Indy]

155. I have to reply to this point that has been offered by many on this thread

The fact is that there would in no way shape or form have been a complete abandonment of the auto industry in America regardless of the bailout. This idea that the GM would have simply ceased building cars in America without a bailout is nonsense. Some entity would have purchased GM's assets and continued to make cars and trucks. It is simply insane to offer that these factories and workers would have gone the way of the DoDo without a bailout.

[geek tragedy]

156. And the new plant would have been non-union.

There would have been no collective bargaining agreement between the UAW and the newly formed company running the plants.

Presto, union busted.

[Hannah Bell]

159. like this, you mean?

GM’s “Northern Strategy”: Go Non-Union
by Al Benchich | Mon, 02/22/2010 - 7:16pm

Green Battery Plant Opens Non-Union

The “reinvention” of the “New GM” has begun with the opening of a lithium-ion battery plant in Brownstown, Michigan, near Detroit. The event was remarkable not only because the Brownstown plant signals GM’s return to the production of an electric vehicle but also because, for the first time in about 30 years, GM has opened a non-union plant in the U.S.

The new plant is funded in part by taxpayer dollars, and GM is not rehiring any of the thousands of UAW members who were laid off when their plants closed—despite union promises that workers’ concessions on pay, benefits, and speed of work would save GM and were their only chance for job security.

The plant, a wholly owned subsidiary of General Motors, opened on January 7 and currently employs 25 hourly workers. Last year former GM CEO Fritz Henderson said GM planned to hire new workers to fill 100 hourly jobs at second-tier wages of about $14 an hour. (Henderson, who was fired by GM, is now being paid $60,000 a month as a “consultant” to work 20 hours a month—$3,000 an hour.)

http://labornotes.org/blogs/2010/02/gm%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cnorthern-strategy%E2%80%9D-go-non-union

[geek tragedy]

160. Multiplied X200. nt

[Hannah Bell]

163. oh, it will be.

[Number23]

121. Go get 'em, geek! rofl

:thumbsup:

Not that it will do a damned bit of good...

[polmaven]

106. Which Union is it

that the Obama Administration busted? :shrug:

[LWolf]

89. Bullshit.

You aren't qualified to determine what I care about.

On the other hand, I think that this administrations actions and words make its priorities crystal clear.

[geek tragedy]

93. Yes, he valued the jobs of the American auto workers and he took a huge

political risk to protect them.

Knowing full well that there would be those on the right and on the left that would seize it as an opportunity to make bad-faith accusations.

[LWolf]

95. .

:eyes:

[geek tragedy]

96. Brilliant counter-argument and a perfect summation

of the underpinnings of your "everything Obama does sucks because it is Obama doing it" philosophy.

Of course, you have not offered what you would have done differently than Obama with regard to GM and Chrysler.

Perhaps you are an embittered bond holder.

[LWolf]

98. Keep going. No matter how many last words you think you've got,

you're still fos.

[scheming daemons]

99. You've yet to refute a single thing he's said....

...

Just ad hominum attacks.


That's the sign of someone who's lost an argument, and doesn't have the character to admit it.

[geek tragedy]

100. Yep, nothing more than "everything Obama does is awful

and you're full of shit if you disagree"

Fine contribution.

[LWolf]

103. You've yet to refute a single thing I've said. Just ad hominum attacks. nt

[geek tragedy]

108. We're still awaiting your analysis of why

Obama's bailout/rescue of the American automotive industry was a betrayal of the American worker.

[LWolf]

145. "We." Have you got a mouse in your pocket?

I don't think I said the bailout was a betrayal of the American worker. I said Rahm's "fuck the UAW" indicated that this administration is not all that friendly to the American worker. I guess we can do this for months: you trying, and failing, to somehow discredit my criticism of Rahm or the administration. It won't change anything. It won't make this administration somehow friendlier to those they're dissing. You aren't winning friends and influencing votes, support, or future criticisms.

[Ignis]

169. ROFL @ "and doesn't have the character to admit it"

...Right after an accusation of using the argumentum ad hominem.

Comedy gold! :rofl:

[LWolf]

172. That it is.

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

112. pre-bailout gm employed about 90K people. post bailout that went to 60K, now ~40K.

50k jobs gone.

uaw lost 18% of their membership in the same period.

protect -- what?

as recently as the 90s gm still employed over 200K workers in the us.

why are we bailing out a huge corp, the top-selling automaker in china, for 40,000 jobs?

two months before the bailout they were building a research facility in china; they've since built two more, plus manufacturing plant.

bailout money facilitated that transfer of technology & jobs.

[geek tragedy]

116. GM employs 100K in North America. nt

[Hannah Bell]

123. April 20, 2010: GM shed 65K jobs in the last year.

During the financial crisis that led to GM filing for bankruptcy protection last year, the automaker closed 14 factories and shed more than 65,000 blue-collar jobs in the U.S. through buyouts, early retirement offers and layoffs.

The company now employs about 40,000 hourly workers in the U.S.

http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2010/04/gm_ceo_says_government_loans_h.html


North america = canada, us, & mexico.

[BzaDem]

117. What you are missing is that even if your numbers were correct, they are ALL greater than 0

and 0 is what chapter 7 bankruptcy would have produced.

You are wrong by simple math. A large positive number is always greater than 0.

[Hannah Bell]

129. $60B for 40K jobs. 65K lost. If you have a problem with the numbers, take it up with the reporters

“No operations outside the US are included in the court filing or court supervised process."

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=63401.


That's why they were building plant in china immediately before & during the bankruptcy.


GM Opens Eighth China Plant, Won't Add Further Capacity Soon
By Tian Ying - December 17, 2008

Dec. 17 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. opened its eighth vehicle plant in China and said it had no plans for adding further capacity amid slowing demand in Asia's biggest auto market.

This ``has been a big year in terms of expansion'' and it ``probably will keep us occupied for the foreseeable future,'' Kevin Wale, GM China's president, said by phone today. He spoke from the northeastern city of Shenyang after the opening of the carmaker's new 2.67 billion yuan ($390 million) plant....

GM and Chrysler LLC are seeking $14 billion in emergency aid from the U.S. government to keep operating through the first quarter. President George W. Bush may decide on the bailout as soon as today, according to a government official who spoke yesterday on condition of anonymity.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aWHbmXZFhiEs


General Motors Opens New Plant in China, Sells Allison Transmission Unit

This entry was posted on Monday, March 22nd, 2010

General Motors Corp. has inaugurated a new engine plant at its minicar factory SAIC-GM-Wuling Automobile Co. Monday in southern China. The new engine plant, which reportedly cost the automaker 2 billion yuan ($263 million) lies adjacent to the factory in Liuzhou and is set to produce a capacity of 300,000 units a year. The automaker has said in a statement that production of 1.1-liter and 1.2-liter engines are set to begin in August.

http://www.motorhomesecrets.com/motor-homes-for-sale/general-motors-opens-new-plant-in-china-sells-allison-transmission-unitgeneral-motors-opens-new-plant-in-china-sells-allison-transmission-unit




Many companies have emerged healthier after going through the court-supervised wringer, a fate that looks likelier for GM after the U.S. Administration of President Barack Obama forced Chrysler into bankruptcy on April 30. After establishing GM wasn't ready for the hearse, Reilly not so subtly steered the conversation back to China, insisting that no matter what happens, it would be business as usual for him and his management team. (See the 2009 Detroit auto show.)

That's because at the lowest moment in history for one of America's iconic industrial companies, China is GM's parallel universe — a place where business couldn't be much better...GM back home may be saddled with gas-guzzling car models nobody wants while it loses customers to rivals, but in China, the company is neck and neck with Volkswagen for the market-share lead, 10 years after the first GM cars started rolling off Chinese assembly lines. In April, GM set a record for monthly sales: 151,084 vehicles, a stunning 50% increase over its April 2008 results.

GM REMAINS "SOLIDLY PROFITABLE" IN THE COUNTRY, Reilly says (GM DOES NOT DISCLOSE CHINA REVENUE AND PROFIT FIGURES).

While GM plans to slash its U.S. workforce by 38% — 23,000 jobs — by 2011, it's hiring in China and expects to open a new factory there within the next few years... "Within 10 years," says Kevin Wale, Reilly's deputy and the president of GM China, "this will be our largest market in the world."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1896626,00.html

An Open Letter from GM China President 2009

Throughout GM’s recent restructuring period GM continued to grow in China
aggressively, setting first half records for sales with 38.0% increase to 814,442
units. GM also continued to expand its dealer network, roll out new products like
Buick New Regal 2.0 Turbo sedan, Cadillac Escalade Hybrid, as well as all-new
Buick LaCrosse premium sedan which was just launched on July 8. A number of
other new products are on the way now.

http://www.new-gm.com/china/en/KEW_Chapter_11_Emergence_Statement-EN-Final.pdf


GM breaks ground on China hi-tech car lab
July 19, 2010

The 250,000-dollar facility, which is due to be completed by the end of 2011, will house a 300-plus team of designers, engineers, researchers and technicians, GM China President Kevin Wale told a news conference.

"Clearly the growth of China as the most important growth market in the world means that we're going to be putting more of our resources in advanced technology and research here," Wale said.

GM is the market leader in China, which overtook the United States for the first time last year to become the world's biggest auto market.

http://www.physorg.com/news198745446.html



GM China Sales Hit 3 Million by 2015; 25 New Models Coming

April 13, 2010

General Motors, which already is selling more vehicles in China than it is in the U.S., will stretch the gap even further as it predicts it will sell three million vehicles a year in China by 2015. It will add 25 new or updated models, including more fuel efficient ones.

For 2010, GM said in a statement it is on track to sell more than 2 million vehicles in China this year, four years ahead of schedule. GM sold 1.83 million vehicles in China last year.

China now is GM's largest market, surpassing the U.S. for three straight months. In total, China overtook the U.S. as the world's biggest auto market last year.

GM said it would introduce 25 new or updated models in China by the end of 2011. Over the next five years it will add more hybrids, plug-ins and electric vehicles. GM also is planning to boost production, possibly building a new plant.

http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/04/gm-china-sales-hit-3-million-by-2015-25-new-models-coming.html



The latest twist in Detroit’s do-over has General Motors becoming the first automaker to import Chinese-built cars into the United States, according to Automotive News.

Citing a leaked document shown to lawmakers who are overseeing the restructuring of the auto giant, the newspaper reports that GM is planning to market made in China cars to American consumers as early as 2011, the same year the company’s heralded Chevrolet Volt electric car goes on sale.

According to the report, GM plans to sell nearly 18,000 Chinese-made vehicles in the US in 2011, with that number rising to over 50,000 by 2014.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519974,00.html

[BzaDem]

132. You are the one that can't understand that positive > zero, not even COUNTING the spillover effects

that a chapter 7 liquidation would have on suppliers/etc. The numbers of jobs ACTUALLY lost if there were a liquidation would be well into the hundreds of thousands.

[Hannah Bell]

133. Here's what I understand: the cites are in the articles linked above.

1. 65K jobs lost in the US while jobs were added in china & elsewhere
2. $60B invested in GM by US taxpayers to save 40K jobs while GM built plant in china & elsewhere
3. More cars sold in China this year & last than in the US
4. GM China "solidly profitable" & profit figures NOT PUBLISHED.
5. Only GM US included in the bankruptcy.
6. GM to begin importing chinese-made cars to the us next year.

[BzaDem]

136. So what???

You keep posting absolute numbers as opposed to relative ones, not reflecting the fact that they are ALL greater than zero, and completely IGNORE the hundreds of thousands of supplier jobs and other jobs linked to the auto industry that would have all been lost after a liquidation.

[Hannah Bell]

138. GM purposedly destroyed its own "suppliers," e.g. delphi. which used to be GM.

test run for their own "bankruptcy"


In 10 years gm has gone from 0 cars in china to 2 million -- more than they sell in the us -- & from nearly 200,000 hourly to 40K.

They spun off delphi & screwed those workers, now they're repeating the same process.

And they're going non-union:



GM and Delphi Ditching UAW For New “Green” Production Jobs

As GM tools up for production of its Volt extended-range electric car, Automotive News <sub>has noticed something interesting: workers at GM’s new battery pack assembly plant are not represented by the United Auto Workers. Located in the heart of UAW territory (Brownstown Township, MI), the Volt battery plant represents the very jobs that local politicians and GM leadership hailed as the green future of the auto industry. When the plant opened, GM Chairman/CEO Ed Whitacre waxed eloquent about the opportunities:

The development of electric vehicles like the Chevy Volt is creating entire new sectors in the auto industry – an “ecosystem” of battery developers and recyclers, builders of home and commercial charging stations, electric motor suppliers and much more. These companies and universities are creating new jobs in Michigan and across the U.S. – green jobs – and they’re doing it by developing new technology, establishing new manufacturing capability, and strengthening America’s long-term competitiveness.

As long as they do so without UAW representation, apparently. Needless to say, if GM can get away with using non-union workers at a crucial plant that’s supposed to represent the firm’s future, things aren’t looking so good for our friends in organized labor.

Though electric motor production at Maryland’s White Marsh plant will be a union shop, GM’s biggest supplier Delphi is also taking measures to keep its EV component factory in Kokomo, IN, free from union representation (in line with its new union-free mantra). Kokomo Local 292′s president calls the decision a “smack in the face” for the union, which is facing a decades-long slide in membership.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/gm-and-delphi-ditching-uaw-for-new-green-production-jobs/


But there will always be plenty of apologists to argue that these sleazy, phony union-busting, wage-jacking moves are some kind of triumph.</sub>

[BzaDem]

141. Your entire post doesn't even CLAIM to rebut anything I wrote in my previous one.

Nothing you said contradicts the fact that positive numbers are greater than 0, or that hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost at suppliers and elsewhere after a liquidation. Instead, you post something that has the word "supplier" in it.

Changing the subject repeatedly shows you have no argument.

[Hannah Bell]

164. it does, but you are willfully blind to it.

[blue_onyx]

165. So...

2. $60B invested in GM by US taxpayers to save 40K jobs while GM built plant in china & elsewhere

They are building plants in China because that's a big market for them. China requires companies to build there and has a high tax on imported vehicles. If only the US was smart enough to have trade policies that benefited our country.


6. GM to begin importing chinese-made cars to the us next year.

This is a rumor from before the bankruptcy. Don't pass it off as fact because it's not.

[Hannah Bell]

166. "China requires companies to build there "

1. China imports cars, e.g.:

Everybody is worried about China flooding the world with cheap cars. Just the opposite is true. The world is flooding China with expensive cars. China has become one of the prime export markets for major carmakers the world over, especially in the higher segments. For next year, a unit of the Chinese government predicts imports to China to exceed the 1 million mark. Exports remain lacklustre.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/china%E2%80%99s-car-imports-to-hit-1-million-next-year/


See, you don't know what you're talking about. There's no requirement that US makers build in china. THEY WANT TO; THEY'VE HAD A DELIBERATE STRATEGY FOR YEARS. THEY'RE ABANDONING OUTDATED PLANT IN THE US & BUILDING IN CHINA. CONCOMMITANT TO THAT, THEY'RE OFFLOADING US OBLIGATIONS & PROMISES.

US TAXPAYERS FOOTING THE BILL FOR THE MOVE.


2. "Don't pass it off as fact because it's not."

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/gm-could-sell-chinese-cars-in-the-u-s/

[blue_onyx]

167. Let me rephase it

China has trade policies that basically requires companies to build there or face large penalties.

"China is not alone in its effective protectionism and use of non-tariff barriers to U.S. exports. Subsidizing domestic producers, minimum import pricing, advertising restrictions, import licensing requirements, rebates of domestic taxes to exporters, and many other barriers are added to the more obvious trade barriers engaged in by many countries. But China is the leader in promoting exports and blocking imports, especially in its trade relations with the U.S. "

Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/international-business-articles/us-trade-policy-and-declining-manufacturing-where-do-we-go-from-here-3045887.html#ixzz0ys9Y5b8d


"The Chinese government requires local partnerships and local parts content in the vehicles sold there. American imports get taxed at a fat 25% rate. So while GM could sell Chinese-made Buicks in the U.S. easily, sending American cars made by union hands over there is a lot more costly. GM does sell some American-made Cadillac models and the Buick Enclave suv in China. But with that tax rate, not to mention higher American labor rates, it only makes sense to export expensive luxury models from the U.S. to China."

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2009/05/gm_looks_to_china_the_uaw_looks_to_the_feds.html

You think GM would be competitive there with vehicles that cost 25% more? So yeah, China does force companies to build in their country.


As for the second point, all you did was re-post the same rumor from another website. Try again.

[Hannah Bell]

170. It was the NEW YORK TIMES "website" & what you posted was a rah-rah piece supporting

transfer of jobs to china & export of chinese cars to the us.


i can tell you don't know what you're talking about because when proven wrong (china "requires" we build there) you move the goalposts.

the fact is, china wouldn't exist in its present form without the foreign capital that's flooded it over the last 20 years, or without the us export market.

there's nothing that stops us putting duties on imports: but we don't. because the international car biz is non-competitive: the same capital runs all of it.

[blue_onyx]

171. You're the one who doesn't know what she's talking about

I remember last week I corrected your "GM building new plants in Mexico" post in plenty of time for you to edit it. You chose not to because you're not interested in being factually correct.

China forces companies to locate there in order to be competitive. It's a fact. But, like always, you refuse to deal with facts and reality so you can continue your rant.


"It was the NEW YORK TIMES "website"

It was a NYT post that repeated the same RUMOR. It doesn't change the fact that it's a RUMOR. Let me know when you find that source confirming vehicles will be shipped here from China next year.

[Hannah Bell]

173. the chinese auto industry was built by foreigners & foreign investment.

and the biggest players in china are foreign corps (GM = #1 in sales).

China does not "require" that foreigner build there to enter their market: it puts tariffs on imports. China imports about 30K foreign autos/month.

it's a fact, but as always, you refuse to deal with facts and reality.

a bit different: mexico building new PLANT. $500 million investment in retooling to turn out new product = new PLANT.

it was a NYT AUTO COLUMN discussing a LEAKED DOCUMENT. Not a "rumor". Not a "post", as on a message board.

and most importantly: bob king is not "the uaw".

[blue_onyx]

174. LOL

"Mexico building new PLANT. $500 million investment in retooling to turn out new product = new PLANT."

Talk about moving goalposts. This is not true. A new plant is not an old plant that has been retooled to build something different. You're so full of it.

A supposedly "leaked" document from over a year ago before GM entered bankruptcy? Yep, that sounds like solid proof. Like I said, when you find a source that confirms that vehicles will be imported to the US from China (not may be imported or could be imported....actually, for a fact, will be imported), let me know.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

139. yep, if a mugging saves one $15/hr job, it's a victory for some.

[SidDithers]

146. And there are hardly ever F-bombs dropped during union meetings...nt

Sid

[SidDithers]

50. K&R...

facts are good.

Sid

[FrenchieCat]

51. thank you for reporting words actually spoken from the source

while being videotaped and filmed! :hi:

[Peacetrain]

55. K&R

[Tarheel_Dem]

68. You mean "unnamed source" got another one wrong? K&R.....

:kick:

[readmoreoften]

69. Correction: high-level, non-elected union leader secures his cozy position.

Where actual union MEMBERS stand on Obama has nothing to do with one six-figure-salary guy at the top.

[geek tragedy]

72. Hilarious how you bash the union leadership when

they support Obama's rescue of their industry and their union.

Btw, have any response to the UAW member in this thread backing up his union head?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9083987&mesg_id=9085456

I'm going to guess you don't have a response.

[w4rma]

74. This King guy is speaking for himself. He isn't the UAW. Obama saved the auto industry DESPITE Rahm.

Not because of Rahm. Rahm got overruled.

[geek tragedy]

76. He is the elected head of the UAW.

Who are you?

[w4rma]

80. He is one guy at the top position. And Rahm got overruled. Who are you? (nt)

[geek tragedy]

81. Rahm got overruled?

Proof that Rahm opposed the bailout?

And, if Rahm did, doesn't that mean that Obama is capable of rejecting his bad advice?

[w4rma]

82. "doesn't that mean that Obama is capable of rejecting his bad advice?" Rahm was overruled. So, yes.

I have yet to see *any* good advice from Rahm, however. He should have never been hired in the beginning.

[TheBigotBasher]

84. Did he get overruled?

How do you know? Please tell.

Were you at the meetings?

I wasn't. I just know that the car industry was saved and that as a result GM cars are still sold across the World.

[w4rma]

101. Yup. He got overruled and now he wants credit for something he didn't do. Again.

Rahm is a master of self-promotion. He is horrible for promoting Obama, however.

[geek tragedy]

109. I'm open to that possibility.

But, I would simply ask for evidence.

[polmaven]

107. Wow...you were in the room?

:wow:

[Bobbie Jo]

83. K&R

:kick:

"The people who actually care about the UAW and its workers give Obama and Rahm high marks. The people spreading the "Fuck the UAW" story are stirring up anti-Obama hate in order to drive web traffic (Huffington Post and Firedoglake) and don't give a shit about the UAW."

Bingo!

[TomCADem]

90. No! Ignore The Fact That Obama Administration Save U.S. Auto Industry!!!

Let us keep up with meme that Rahm Emmanuel is the anti-christ and worse then a Republican controlled Congress.

[Denzil_DC]

91. K&R n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

102. "La La LALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUUuuuuuuu!!!!"

[LoZoccolo]

110. Rahm's a pretty cool guy. Eh saved the auto nuion and doesn't afraid of anything.

As you suggest, it's good to wait and see what really went on.

[Hekate]

122. Kickety kick and Rec

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lost4words]

152. if he was he would sound like YOU! nt

[Lost4words]

153. if ours was a free market GM would have had to find its own survival plan

I am glad the auto workers still have their jobs, what about the rest of the unemployed in the USA? I dont hear the UAW saying much about those workers.

depakid is spot on in this case.

[snooper2]

154. The folks here who hate Obama and Rahm are really in a tizzy now

:rofl:

Fun to watch...

But...But...But...!!!!!! :rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

157. Admirable. I think he's keeping his eye on the big picture. n/t

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scurrilous]

162. Kick

:kick: