My Dad flies the gay pride rainbow flag in our back garden.

[miscsoc]

He's not gay, he just believes in equal rights.

I can't say I've really discussed gay rights with him, I knew he was of a tolerant temperament re: lifestyles but this gesture impresses me. He is a basically conservative man and has little time for my socialist leanings.

Just learnt of this when I went back to my parents' home a couple of days ago.

Shit I don't really have a point, I'm just impressed with the old man.

[Ken Burch]

1. Unlike the "Religious Right", some of the Goldwater conservatives

actually take the "personal freedom" thing seriously. They actually mean it when they say the state shouldn't interfere in people's personal lives.

I salute your dad for his SINCERE conservative convictions...convictions not shared with most of those who call themselves "conservatives" today.

[realisticphish]

4. it always amuses me

to think that Goldwater would be considered to be dangerously socialist-friendly by much of the modern conservative movement

[Skittles]

2. *SWOON*

now that is what I call a real man :thumbsup:

[jobycom]

3. You should be. I'm impressed and I don't even know him.

Good dad figure, there. :thumbsup:

[Smashcut]

5. Kudos to your dad, and appreciate the post, just a small nitpick

Please don't use the word "lifestyle" when referring to sexual orientation.

Otherwise, good on you and your dad!

[miscsoc]

6. oh, okay. i meant, like, behaviour, basically.

on reflection the word "lifestyle" is a bit unpleasant, what with the word "style" and all the flippancy and arbitrariness that implies. i intended it in the sense of "way of living".

[eridani]

7. Except it isn't really a "way of living" that differs in any significant way

--from that of heterosexuals. There is no specific act done by partners of the same sex that is different from those done between opposite sex partners. Like I always say, we don't have "lifestyles," we have lives.

[miscsoc]

9. Right, it doesn't differ in any SIGNIFICANT way

It differs in that, like, some women have partners who are men, and some have partners who are women. I don't mean "way of living" in the sense of a gay way of living or a straight way of living or whatever. I mean it in the sense that we all live our lives in our own way. As long as we stay within certain moral bounds, we should live as we wish. The moral stuff is the significant stuff - responsibility, loyalty, honesty etc.

[eridani]

10. Agrred. Just pointing out that words make a difference n/t

[Sapphocrat]

13. Neither, actually.

It's not a "lifestyle," or "way of living," and it's not "behavior." It's who we are. Big, big difference.

[miscsoc]

15. well, you behave as the person you are!

if you ARE anything, it's pretty hard to define that thing without reference to behaviour? being in a heterosexual or homosexual relationship is definitely a behaviour i.e. it's a thing you do. of course being attracted to this or that category of human beings isn't a behaviour per se, but forming a romantic relationship with someone definitely is.

[Sapphocrat]

19. No, not at all. Hear me out.

What you do doesn't necessarily define who you are. In fact, it seldom does.

Consider this:

Let's say you've been writing all your life -- short stories, novels, essays, whatever. And let's say you've never had a single piece of work published.

Are you still a writer? Or are you only a writer if you've been published?

Do you drive a car? Have you ever pulled out from a green light to beat the guy next to you? If so, you raced him -- but does that make you a professional race-car driver?

There are many, many people with a L/G/B and/or T identity who have never... acted on their identity to confirm it.

Take me (not literally -- I'm taken -- LOL): I knew I was gay about a million years before I ever had the opportunity to (for lack of a better word) "confirm" my affectational orientation (look that up -- it's a good phrase) by acting on it. Was I any less gay the day before the first time I had sex with another woman than I was the day after I did?

Before that, I once engaged in full-blown sexual intercourse with a man -- just to see what all the fuss was about, when I was very young (too young, mind you). There was no coercion; it was my choice to try it out -- but that's all it was: trying it out (in great part so no one could ever say to me: "How do you know if you don't try it?"). Did that experience mean I was straight, even for the 90 minutes or so it lasted? No -- I was still just as much a lesbian (albeit a young, stupid one) as I was the day before.

What about heterosexuals who -- for any reason at all -- never have sex with a MOTOS?

Think about straight priests or nuns who never have sex (yes, they exist!). Think about straight people who "save" themselves for marriage -- are they not really straight? Are they any less straight before they actually do The Deed?

Whether you yourself are straight or gay, were you any less straight/gay before you ever engaged in straight/gay "behavior"?

Go further into territory no one likes to think about: Were your parents not really straight until they did The Deed that made you?

See what I mean?

Not ragging on you, I swear -- just trying to open your mind to the difference between who you are, and what you do.

Do you see? Or did I not explain it well enough?

[miscsoc]

20. no; good explanation

the two things are indeed seperable, you have a point. initially re the ill-chosen word "lifestyle" i meant behaviour (i.e. i was saying my father thinks people have the right to actually, practically, have gay partners and have sex and get married etc.), but re: the later post about the interconnection of behaviour and identity i take your point, the relationship is a bit looser than i implied there.

incidentally the word "behaviour" wasn't meant in any pejorative sense, only in the sense of "stuff people do".

[Sapphocrat]

23. OK, good.

I know I can be a totally insufferable b-word when it comes to this stuff, but I also believe I can recognize a good and sincere poster when I see one.

I take no offense at the word "behavior," because I (think I) know exactly how you meant it.

Peace out. And my sincere thanks for your listening and understanding. :)

[HEyHEY]

8. My old man lost customers back in the day

Because he had a bald, doc wearing lesbian working at his company. A few customers asked him why he would employ her especially since she was the first person you met when you came in the door.

He told them a person is a person and if they had a problem with his staff there were plenty of other office supply companies they could frequent.

Some of the old timers know the score. Young people beat up on them too much.

[miscsoc]

11. good chap, your dad

people like that - people just acting decently where they have the choice to do so - is how society becomes more humane and ethical. of course laws are necessary to reinforce this, but the precondition is that sort of basic conscience.

[Sapphocrat]

12. I love your dad.

My mom keeps one of my-own-designed bumper stickers on the bumper of her humongous, American-made, gas-guzzling tuna boat: "No On Hate - No On 8."

She's also let me keep -- for more than two years -- an original, "official" No On Prop 8/Equality for All sign in her front/facing-the-street kitchen window for the world to see. A couple of weeks ago, I said that sign should come down only when we have marriage equality, at the very least in California. She agreed.

Btw, my mom is straight as an arrow, and a devout Catholic.

I repeat: I love your dad.

Maybe if you do discuss it with him, he'll fly the flag in his front yard. :)

[miscsoc]

14. oh, there's no flagpole in the front yard, but i'm sure he would if he had one.

the back garden one is visible from the road in front of the house, though.

my aunt and uncle live in a gated community in oklahoma. it would be interesting to see if they could be persuaded to fly a rainbow flag - i've heard that they actually pretended to be married before they got hitched in vegas lest their neighbours realise that they were living in sin.

[Sapphocrat]

16. Methinks Auntie & Unk will need a very high gate indeed.

:D

[miscsoc]

17. really?

I have no idea, i've never been there. That's a bit sinister, really.

[miscsoc]

18. -

[Sapphocrat]

21. What's sinister? Oklahoma? Then I'll agree.

Yes, I'm serious. I don't know what the hell is wrong with Oklahoma that keeps Sally Kern in office.

Crash course for ya:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFxk7glmMbo

She's only gotten worse since.

And while Miz Sally doesn't represent the entire state, and while there are many damn good, clear-headed Oklahomans, there are far too many haters that make the state one place any sane LGBTer will steer clear of.

Another enlightening source:

http://www.gayokc.com/

[miscsoc]

22. the idea that it would be unwise to fly that flag, or there would be a negative reaction

[Sapphocrat]

24. Yeah, there might/probably would be. n/t

[xchrom]

25. Tell your dad 'Thanks'! Nt

[4_TN_TITANS]

26. Are you really sure that he knows what it means?

Might have just bought it for the pretty colors.

[miscsoc]

27. No, I asked that

He knows what it means, that's why he bought it.