Michael Moore's new site 'OpenMike'

[ProfessionalLeftist]

Just FYI

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mikes-letter/openmike-my-new-blog-blasts-michaelmoorecom

[NJmaverick]

1. Other than being a good attack dog to send after George Bush

Michael Moore is of little value

[lonestarnot]

2. I have to disagree. I think he is a very valuable man. I value him.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

8. I truly don't think calling posters trolls is acceptable.

[kenfrequed]

20. Hmm probably not

But considering some of the posts I have seen on some locked threads here and there I must confess that there is no lack of Irony.

[MineralMan]

I have no idea what threads or posts you are talking about.

So, I can't comment on those. If you provide links, I could go look at them and write about them. However, lacking that, I can't really comment.

[kenfrequed]

29. Hmm

It is about a thread dealing with some right-winger trolling about DKOS. I find it disturbing how this is corroding conversation and allowing for absurd ad hominems to fly about.

[NJmaverick]

32. Your attempts at vague insults certainly has not done much to improve the conversation

[kenfrequed]

38. Stick to the clearer posts

You will less likely jump to the wrong conclusions and won't have to exert yourself feigning indignation.

[MineralMan]

37. I don't believe any particular individual was called a troll in those

threads. If there were posts of that nature, I'm sure they were deleted. There was much discussion about whether paid trolls exist. Clearly, they do. Who they are is anyone's guess.

[kenfrequed]

42. I avoided them

I just thought it was interesting.

[MineralMan]

44. If you avoided them, then you have no idea what was in them,

do you? Why, then, are you bringing them into this thread? For pete's sake...

[kenfrequed]

48. I avoided posting

I skimmed them and found the usual mix of loyalist nonsense and countervailing excessive outrage against.

Again, I avoided posting but obviously I read them, else how would I know of their existence? Kind of a silly technicality you tried there.

[MineralMan]

53. When someone says to me that they "avoided" a thread,

I take it to mean that they did not read it, either. Whatever. When someone calls another DUer a troll, that message is deleted as soon as it comes to the attention of a moderator. It is one of the inviolable rules here. A discussion of trollery in general, however, does not meet that definition, so it is generally allowed. The threads were locked because they turned into flamewars, which are against the rules here.

If you want to nitpick, you'll have to go find someone else. I take words at their meanings, unless a definition is supplied. You did not "avoid" the threads. You simply did not post in them.

[kenfrequed]

64. Uhm I appreciate it...

Since you were the one started it I can now say my simian skullcap is free of insectoid eggs. Thanks.

[NightWatcher]

4. so he loses value for criticising Obama?

[NJmaverick]

5. He loses because he is the epitome of a loose cannon

[flyarm]

7. Then explain to me why the Democratic party has him as the #1 speaker to delegates at the

Democratic convention at the most important biggest states delegate breakfasts??

Just explain that away..why the Democratic party regards him as their #1 calling card to delegates from the most important largest states in the Union!!

Of course he probably hasn't gone to NJ delegate breakfasts..but he goes to all the biggest states!
And he is always surrounded with Democrats that love a momment to speak with him! In fact I will go as far as to say..he is usally mobbed by democrats! So much so he needs body guards even at the convention!

On a scale of 1-10 , I would say Michael is a 10 in demand by democrats to hear him speak ..

seems you and some around here need to get your messages straighten out!

[NJmaverick]

10. Which convention exactly did he speak at?

[flyarm]

11. I said he speaks at the delegate breakfasts..where most celebs speak ..

reading problems again?? this early in the day??

It is where the Dem party send all the celebs to speak to those representing the voters!!

[NJmaverick]

13. I asked for specifics, which you still haven't provided

[flyarm]

15. no you didn't , you twisted what i said!..that says enough for me! eom

[NJmaverick]

16. Can't help but notice that you still haven't provided any specifics

so I will discount your previous statements.

[flyarm]

27. once you twist my words..I am done with you! I will not reply , and i will not play your sick game!

play it with the little kiddies..I will not play this demented game you play!

I deal with grown ups..not these childish games you attempt to play!

You read what I wrote and I meant what I said! end of story!

[kenfrequed]

35. As much as I disagree with NJ

You are not terribly coherant and not lending much to what ought to be my side of the argument.

[Warpy]

12. That must mean you've never seen his films, read his books,

or read his articles. It sounds like your opinion is right from mainstream media.

Some things are pretty glaringly obvious.

You don't have to like the man. You do have to respect his body of work.

[NJmaverick]

14. That was a very poor assumption you made

Maybe it's time to go beyond the Mike Moores of the world

[kenfrequed]

24. Go beyond "Capitalism a love story?"

Does that mean you want to enact some of the ideas of Roosevelt's 'second bill of rights'? or open up more and more worker collective run democratic businesses?

Or did you mean that you want to go beyond him and do an about-face right back towards the status quo of conservative taxation and business policy?

[NJmaverick]

31. More like going beyond the simplistic and shallow ideas one can get from movies

[kenfrequed]

45. Of course

He covers two democratic business models that seem to work fine, but I suppose those workers are all simplistic and shallow. Or were you talking about FDR's second bill of rights? Was that simplistic and shallow?

Maybe you could be a bit more detailed in your analysis?

[kenfrequed]

18. Yeah...who needs populism anyhow

Wouldn't it be better if we just all sort of accepted squishy, moderate, corporate friendly, unchallenging, fiscally-moderate, milquetoat ideas?

Yeah, I can see how that would be totally inspiring and effective to the vast majority of voters.

The lack of populism and progressivism was probably responsible for the gradual tilt away from the democratic party, and the only time where we seemed to start coming back strong was when we had a conservative boogieman to vote against.

[NJmaverick]

30. You're claim that MM= Populism couldn't be further afield of the truth

[kenfrequed]

50. I noticed something...

You don't seem to like to get into details on anything. Why is that?

I have argued with you in the past and you always seem to toss off with one line responses that go into very little detail in an authoritative tone without much in the way of explanation, analysis, or supporting argumentation. You must be very busy.

[NJmaverick]

54. I am well aware of the debate tactic where you start out with a false assumption

and then quickly try to bury it in detail. So before we enter into detail, we must correct the false assumptions. Simply put MM does not equal populism. Since that was shot down the details are pretty much meaningless.

[kenfrequed]

73. Sloppy

Really sloppy. You are declaring someone that has consistently spoken for the poorest and the workers as not being populist?

I'm sorry, but whatever cracker jack prize version of logical fallacy evaluation that you got that out of really doesn't add up to a 'false premise' argument. Sadly you actually do have to support a claim of 'false premise' and not merely shout the equivalent of "Iz-not"

Poplism doesn't necessarily have whatever imaginary requirements you are envisioning (i.e. you and I don't have to agree with something for it to be 'populist') and can even be a bad thing sometimes. After all, Caeser could have been considered populist by the proles fo his time and that didn't really go all that well in the end.

Really the definition of populist is usually that there is a figure or ideology that sets itself up as the people versus the elites. And since I have yet to see the "Michael Moore Wine testing in the Napa Christmas special," I kind of think he might be acting from a populist perspective.

In otherwords. I might have actually won this round.

[ShamelessHussy]

22. He is also of great value to many working class americans

by always fighting for them and highlighting the wrongs done to them by the system.

in fact i would argue he is invaluable in todays corporate dominated media landscape.

[Individualist]

57. That's one of the reasons why DLC detests him.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

87. You bet it is....

...he's not "corporate" enough for their liking.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

86. you hit the nail.....thank you. n/t

[asdjrocky]

49. He tells the truth.

Maybe that's why you don't like him.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

88. Another nail hit. Thank you. n/t

[Ignis]

78. I'll compare MM's progressive achievements against yours, any day.

Mike might be of "little value" to those who worship the status quo, but he's been a consistent fighter for equal rights, peace, unions, affordable health care, etc., for more than two decades.

What have you done that gives you the right to belittle his work? :shrug:

[earth mom]

80. WTF! Moore is giving Obama the benefit of the doubt and that's your attitude?!

What true lefty doesn't like Mike?! :wtf:

[LibDemAlways]

6. Thanks for the link. I look forward to reading the blog.

Michael Moore is a national treasure - one of the few voices consistently speaking out on behalf of the little guy and pulling no punches when it comes to exposing the corruption and greed that has pulled this country into the sewer. We could use many more like him.

[MineralMan]

9. While Michael Moore has done some interesting things,

he's also shot his mouth off inappropriately a lot as well. I have to examine each thing he does individually, so I don't just automatically love everything he says, writes, or produces.

I don't consider him a reliable voice in US politics.

[Tsiyu]

17. He's not a politician

There's the rub

[MineralMan]

19. Of course he is a politician. He's just not one who runs for

office. Is Karl Rove a politician? Moore deals in politics. He speaks at political events. He advocates for and against candidates. He is a consummate politician.

[kenfrequed]

21. Crap.

He advocates for causes. He only advocates politicians by accident or coincidence of parallel inertia. He is an activist first and foremost and to start even the sketch of a Rovian analogy is... well... itself Rovian in its obfuscation and ad hominem nonsense.

[MineralMan]

26. I use a broader definition of politician that you do,

apparently. We're all politicians, since our interests include politics. Every political activist is a politician, whether or not he or she seeks or holds political office. So, my the definition I use includes Michael Moore.

[Tsiyu]

47. He is politically oriented

as an artist using film as his primary medium.

The fact that so many on the left love him and so many on the right villify him says it all for me.

You have your own definitions, as broad as they may be to me.

To you, he is irrelevant.

To many, he is capturing American life on film in a unique and entertaining way AND he dares to have an opinion about it.

Have a good one...

[NJmaverick]

33. True, he's a for profit entity

[kenfrequed]

62. err..

Are you sure you want to use that talking point? Or are you baiting me?

[ShamelessHussy]

25. no one is perfect, but the good he has done outweighs the bad by many orders of magnitude

I consider him a very reliable voice on US social issues, always on the side of the working class, and why he always has my ear.

[NJmaverick]

34. He has done good and bad which is the definition of a loose cannon

We certainly could use less loose cannons and the stakes we are fighting for are too high.

[ShamelessHussy]

40. he's an agitator, and we could use a whole lot more of them to help clean up our dirty system

[NJmaverick]

60. agitators are helpful in wash machines but not nearly as useful in society

especially a society that is facing a lot of problems and needs to pull together to get things fixed.

[kenfrequed]

66. *sigh*

Agitators and muckrakers have, historically speaking, been the only way things get noticed and that something gets done.

I wonder how much longer the meatpacking industry would have been sour were it not for an agitator like Upton Sinclair?

[NJmaverick]

67. Yeah coming together to solve our problems is a bad idea

:eyes:

[MineralMan]

43. Michael Moore is a filmmaker. He often manipulates information

to make his point. That's how he makes his living. Nothing wrong with that, but his films need serious study to weed out the facts from the fiction. In some ways, they're propaganda for his position. Now, I share his position on many things, but not his penchant for stretching information to fit his viewpoint.

He does not make documentary films. He makes pseudo-documentary films which show a single viewpoint. If you agree with that viewpoint, as I do in most areas, they're very gratifying to watch. They're also easily disputed by those who do not agree with the viewpoint. In that sense, they fail to convert holders of other viewpoints. That is Michael Moore's flaw as a filmmaker. I wish he'd do it better. He's good at his craft.

[ShamelessHussy]

46. he's a lot of things, and most of them are very positive forces for working class americans

one of his most powerful forces are his films, which of course present a POV, one that is sorely lacking in our corporate dominated media, and is one of the reasons why his documentaries have earned more money than any other in history, the other major reason, is due to his genius.

we need more, not less, of Moore.

[fascisthunter]

75. could you list some of those manipulated fictions?

[Individualist]

82. *crickets*

Surprise, surprise.

[kenfrequed]

83. Wait....wait I think I hear it...

Oh...never mind, just more crickets.

What is it with Democrats that hate-on Michael Moore anyhow? They never seem to provide elaboration for their beliefs and they continue to create/accept the 'we both have crazies' false narrative?

Don't they want Democrats to have effective base inspiring communicators?

[Individualist]

84. DLC has always detested and attempted (unsuccessfully) to smear MM.

[blindpig]

89. He agitates for the working class

Not allowed, the New Deal is so yesterday, it's like it never happened.

[Bluenorthwest]

76. I do not agree with you at all. Nor does the rest of the film world.

You have no idea at all what a documentary film is. Moore's films are considered documentaries by the Academy, of course, and by other documentary filmmakers, save for those on the right who have an axe to grind. Your misunderstanding of what a documentary film is and is not is not the accepted definition. The idea that documentary films should not or do not have the filmmaker's point of view as the film's point of view is absurd. It is not a newsreel. Point of view is inherent to the work, inescapable, in fact it is the point of view that makes or breaks a documentary film. It is the spine of the creature, not a flaw in the creature. Mike's point of view is his genius. What you are saying is like saying that Picasso would have been better without the paint.
It is kind of you to give your blessings as an audience member to Moore's craft. Of course, by all metrics aside from your opinion, no filmmaker in history has done better than Moore in the documentary form. Not only has he made far more money than any other non fiction filmmaker, his film's repeated high earnings have been the coat tails for many other directors, and indeed for the form itself. He created the audience which now supports the making of more documentary films than ever before in history. He's won every major prize the film world has to award. He is the most famous artist in his form of this or any other time.
The idea that Moore's films are intended to convert those who do not agree with him is also, I think, incorrect. That would be a foolish objective for any artist to hold, for many reasons. Such 'conversions' do happen, but those would be gravy, happenstance, pushing a button that was waiting to be pushed. No film is going to 'convert' anyone. No good filmmaker would set out to do that, frankly. Moore's objectives as I see them are first to entertain, then to inform. He is in fact, speaking to those who tend to agree, and to those who have not considered the issue, or those with open minds, not to people who already hold the opposite point of view. The objective toward those folks, I'd say would be to annoy them with mild truthful taunting, not to convert them.
I've heard everything you said before. Just as in your field, the film world has actual definitions and standards. Moore's films are Documentaries by those standards. International standards. Which you do not seem to know. That does not mean they do not exist, or that they are open for debate.

[Luminous Animal]

97. Thank you, Bluenorthwest.

"The idea that documentary films should not or do not have the filmmaker's point of view as the film's point of view is absurd. It is not a newsreel."

[KoKo]

23. Thanks for the Heads Up!

[KoKo]

28. Mike Moore: "Obama's speech Wednesday was awesome and showed the balls we've been waiting to see...

Just clicked onto his new blog ...here's a snip from it..I'm going back over the check out the rest.

From his new blog...

Obama's speech Wednesday -- click here -- was awesome and showed the balls we've been waiting to see since January 2009. Do the Democrats deserve what they're about to get? Absolutely. But we don't. We'll be the ones who will have to suffer; they'll all have cushy lobbying jobs. So do we now have to save them from themselves? How much longer will we have to play this stupid charade? Or do we just let them crash and burn and then start something new out of their wreckage?

I believe our first African-American president deserves a couple more years to try to get it right. After all, he didn't create the disasters he inherited. I think someone's just got to light a fire under him. So I'll strike my match every day on this new blog. And I invite you to join me and do the same. "

[fascisthunter]

36. wow... only two recs

what's up with that. You'd think people here might be encouraged to support such an idea.

[bobbolink]

39. I just added mine and its now up to +1.

The disrupters are out in force this morning!

[NJmaverick]

51. People here tend to want to support the Democrats

and certainly don't want to see anything that encourages the Progressives to be more accepting of Republican victory.

[blindpig]

61. Cause when ya ain't got nothin' else....

fear will just have to do.

[NJmaverick]

65. When you don't have a good answer just call it fear

[asdjrocky]

69. Why are you spamming this thread?

Dose something in it scare you?

[NJmaverick]

70. The only thing that "scares" me is the GOP returning to power

what scares you?

[asdjrocky]

71. Nothing really.

Except maybe ants, and one ex-wife in particular.

You didn't answer my question, why are you spamming this thread?

[NJmaverick]

72. I didn't answer your question because the premise was incorrect and deliberately insutling

here I thought you had my back

[asdjrocky]

74. It was a simple question.

It seems being insulted would be a personal decision.

You seem to appear in this thread more than any other poster, so I was curious as to why.

As a note, if you walk around feeling defensive all the time, you'll often feel insulted with someone is just asking a question.

[Joanne98]

41. I love Michael Moore!

[asdjrocky]

52. Looking at the rec to reply ratio-

It's pretty fucking obvious what is going on at DU.

[NJmaverick]

55. We're all friends here

and I got your back :hi:

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Individualist]

58. Exactly!

[Individualist]

59. Thanks for posting this. K&R

[Starry Messenger]

63. Thank you for this.

There are some of us left here who are...left.

[NJmaverick]

68. Everyone here is on the left

what we need is more people working to keep the GOP from regaining power

[blindpig]

79. What's that got to do with the 'left'?

Both parties fully endorse capitalism, the Left would toss it in the dust bin of history.

[asdjrocky]

77. K&R!

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asdjrocky]

85. It's a shame Michael Moore can't get more than 12 recs at DU. nt

[ProfessionalLeftist]

90. Seems to be a lot of that here. n/t

[fishwax]

91. k/r for michael moore

:kick:

[ShamelessHussy]

92. k&r

[CTLawGuy]

93. when is Michael Moore running for office

since he has all the answers....?

[ShamelessHussy]

94. k&r

[Luminous Animal]

96. Political office is not the summum bonum of political engagement.

[ShamelessHussy]

95. k&r