Weary of Drug War, Mexico Debates Legalization

[ensho]

http://www.truth-out.org/weary-drug-war-mexico-debates-legalization63093


A debate about legalizing marijuana and possibly other drugs — once a taboo suggestion — is percolating in Mexico, a nation exhausted by runaway violence and a deadly drug war.

The debate is only likely to grow more animated if Californians approve an initiative on Nov. 2 to legalize marijuana for recreational use in their state.

Mexicans are keeping a close eye on the vote, seeing it as a bellwether.

"If they vote 'yes' to approve the full legalization of marijuana, I think it will have a radical impact in Mexico," said Jorge Hernandez Tinajero, a political scientist at the National Autonomous University.

-snip-
-----------------------------------

well, alright. lets get this done and over with so the greed and killing will stop and sanity come back to both countries. and people don't have to sneak around to take a toke or grow a most beautiful plant and go to jail for it.

[dkf]

1. Then the drug cartels will find other ways to make money. Maybe more human trafficking

And holding South Americans as hostage.

Mexico is being silly if they think they can legalize one thing and these cartels will be ok.

[Fumesucker]

2. Really, we shouldn't try anything new ever..

It would never work and besides, it would show weakness to change our policy towards "drugs".

The very best way to assure success is simple, do what we're doing now but do it much more vigorously.

We've managed to completely eliminate "drugs" from our prisons, if we turn our entire society into a gigantic prison it stands to reason that we can eliminate "drugs" from the rest of our society too.

[RKP5637]

31. Besides, more prisons would revitalize our economy. Hell, we could even

imprison anyone without a job and solve unemployment too. Also, get sick? go to jail. Health care solved too! Lose a political election? Go to jail, no more problems with people not all agreeing. Yep, one gigantic prison would solve everything!

[Fumesucker]

32. That's the spirit man..

We must think inside the box, or at least think about putting everyone inside the box.

Only when we are all imprisoned can our politicians rest from their holy mission of making sure that we all lead clean, wholesome, productive and drug free lives.

Sometimes you have to destroy a nation in order to save it from itself.

[Warpy]

3. The organized crime "families" that came to prominence here

and made their initial mark doing bootlegging during Prohibition continued on for the next 20 years doing loan sharking, gambling, prostitution, and dope. The latter was the most profitable, keeping them in business far longer than they should have been. Likely it will be the same in Mexico, although they'll be deprived of their main source of income domestically. They'll have to export the business to countries where dope remains illegal and you know that means us.

The war on drugs has been a spectacular failure, a bigger failure than even Prohibition was. No one who wants drugs has been deprived of them. The black market prices have enriched the worst men on the planet. Civil rights have been chipped away in the name of protecting us from ourselves, the very definition of a nanny state. It's time to declare defeat and legalize the whole business, regulating it like alcohol and tobacco and taking the profit out of the black market.

Continuing the present course is clearly insane. Mexico seems to be starting to recognize it. What the hell is it going to take for us?

[dkf]

4. If we want to legalize drugs we may as well create places for throwaway people.

They land up on the streets here anyway.

[Vincardog]

5. Places for throwaway people? Like PRISONS?

[dkf]

11. I was thinking more along the lines of opium dens.

[Fumesucker]

14. Yeah, they'd probably look something like this..

And heres one of the clientele after a night out..

[dkf]

34. At some point alcohol will do this to you too.

Very true. Yet most who indulge in alcohol can keep themselves out of this state. Not so much with the harder drugs.

[Fumesucker]

36. Absolutely..

It's nearly impossible to find pictures of people that are drunk or hung over online, I had to search for seconds to find these..

[dkf]

63. Exactly my point of what happens with a legalized drug.

Thanks!

[Fumesucker]

64. It was so much better during alcohol Prohibition that they decided to keep it forever..

They even passed a Constitutional Amendment making alcohol illegal in the USA and it was never repealed because Prohibition was so wonderful and solved the problem of drunkenness.

Right?

Indeed, shortly after the Amendment making alcohol illegal women were given the right to vote also by Constitutional Amendment and we all know that women would *never* want to make alcohol legal again.

[EOTE]

15. Oh, you mean like bars for "alcohol addicts"?

Whatever would we do if we had places for people to enjoy their intoxicant of choice. Could you imagine the havoc if we allowed several people who wanted to consume alcohol were allowed to legally congregate together? It would be madness!

[dkf]

35. Alcohol isn't as addictive as the harder drugs.

For those that are that severe alcoholics, either their family supports them or they are out on the streets, asking for a buck from anyone around them. We see it in the mild stuff like alcohol. I imagine legalizing the really addictive drugs will create a whole lot more and a lot younger ones too. Say what you will, there are a lot more alcohol drinkers than pot smokers. I would say that is due to the legality of alcohol.

Again, if we legalize it, whatever. But be prepared for the societal impact because partaking in a legal substance means you can't make them stop.

[Vincardog]

39. And partaking in a illegal substance means you can make them stop? We should continue the WOD

because it has been so effective in decreasing drug use?


PLEASE

[Fumesucker]

41. No, what he means is that we should add alcohol and tobacco to the drug war..

I'm sure we could cut down drastically on the use of those substances and I doubt we would lose many freedoms at all, or at least none worth worrying our pointy little heads about.

[Vincardog]

44. If you want to go down that path why not add Nicotine, caffeine, chocolate, sugar?

[Fumesucker]

49. I'm sure dkf would have no problem with that..

Everything that is bad for you should be made illegal, that seems to be his position.

[dkf]

48. Look all I'm saying is accept and plan for the consequences.

We have to realize wide access to very addictive substances will have repercussions. What do you suggest we do?

[Fumesucker]

50. I'm with you, everything addictive should be made illegal..

That's what you were arguing a little while ago anyway.

Have you now changed your position?

[Vincardog]

55. I am with you all the way, Lets ban oxygen once people try that they can't quit for the life of them

[Fumesucker]

56. Not to mention dihydrogen monoxide..

Not only is dihydrogen monoxide totally addictive it's fatal if you overdose.

[Fumesucker]

40. Absolutely.. Alcohol is far less addictive than cocaine or pot..

[EOTE]

53. Alcohol IS a harder drug.

You've got such a skewed notion of what drugs do and don't do, it's hardly worth the time. You talk about societal impact and completely ignore the societal impact of the drug war which is FAR more devastating than any drug.

[Fumesucker]

60. Oh please, everyone knows alcohol is not a drug..

If alcohol were a drug people wouldn't say "alcohol and drugs" and that's an extremely common phrase used by practically everyone.

[EOTE]

66. My bad.

I guess I will get shit-faced after work, after all. Fuck, why am I limiting myself, I should be getting trashed right now. It's the American thing to do. And if I make it past midnight, I'll be drinking for the victims of 9/11, so I'm kinda doubly justified.

[Fumesucker]

68. Have one for me..

:hi:
:toast:

[RainDog]

85. Not true.

Places that have changed their drug laws have reported positive results.

Portugal, for instance.

The Netherlands has also taken a different stance

Vancouver, BC has a harm reduction program in place for people who are addicted to drugs.

here's a link to articles with comparisons between Portugal, The Netherlands and the U.S.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=218x5355

and one little quote from Scientific American

In the face of a growing number of deaths and cases of HIV linked to drug abuse, the Portuguese government in 2001 tried a new tack to get a handle on the problem—it decriminalized the use and possession of heroin, cocaine, marijuana, LSD and other illicit street drugs. The theory: focusing on treatment and prevention instead of jailing users would decrease the number of deaths and infections.

Five years later, the number of deaths from street drug overdoses dropped from around 400 to 290 annually, and the number of new HIV cases caused by using dirty needles to inject heroin, cocaine and other illegal substances plummeted from nearly 1,400 in 2000 to about 400 in 2006, according to a report released recently by the Cato Institute, a Washington, D.C, libertarian think tank.

...Walter Kemp, a spokesperson for the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, says decriminalization in Portugal "appears to be working."

the number of users of drugs has fallen, as well.

I am constantly amazed that people continue to repeat worn out talking points when it is possible to look at other western democracies and see how harm reduction programs work.

But really, it's much easier to just repeat scary ideas people make up in their own heads, I guess.

[Fumesucker]

6. I agree completely..

We've only scratched the surface of what is possible with the drug war, a mere seventy years of failure means nothing, we just have to redouble and then redouble our efforts again until we win.

Indeed, we should add alcohol and tobacco to the list of illicit drugs, why should we allow people to destroy themselves with those substances when they could be living wholesome, pure and virtuous lives?

[anarch]

23. I think we should add chocolate to that list

There's nothing sadder or more depraved than a chocolate addict.


And don't even get me started on caffeine....

[Fumesucker]

26. You're right..

And children are often addicted to chocolate and even caffeine..

The horrors..

[Warpy]

7. Excuse me, but are you blind?

They're already there.

What legalization and regulation would do is shut down the black market. That would make it a lot more difficult for kids to get into trouble, since the black market is wide open to them and a regulated market would mean they'd have to be very determined and creative if they wanted to try drugs.

Again, anybody who wants he stuff has already figured out how to get it. We are not going to see a huge increase in drug burnouts.

[dkf]

13. A drug habit is not so cheap and you still need to hide it somewhat from family and friends who give

A damn.

If we want everyone to turn into a Lindsay Lohan so be it.

[Fumesucker]

16. Yep, pot is extremely difficult to grow, it's such a delicate species..

And you need vast amounts of it to get high.

A shot glass full wouldn't get more than four or five people wasted.

[EOTE]

17. If I needed to hide something from them, they wouldn't be my family and friends.

I've consumed illegal drugs for a while now, yet I've got a good job, good family and friends (who wouldn't judge me for relaxing how I choose to) and a home. The only thing that seems to be missing is the same freedom that sloppy drunks enjoy. Dealing with people like you make my life difficult, not drugs.

[Warpy]

20. Nice hysterical all or nothing thinking there

The truth is that most people really can and do leave it alone.

Observation during 25 years of doing post surgical nursing taught me that 3 days on strong narcotics is about all most people want, then they just want to get back to normal, no matter how much pain they're in. They really start to fight taking that pain medication instead of grabbing all they can get.

In addition, a study done in Boston during the 80s followed 10,800+ patients who had been given strong narcotics while hospitalized. They found FOUR new addictions. That's right. Out of nearly 11,000 people, only FOUR of them liked the stuff enough to look for it once they got home.

The odds are with us. While yes, some people will use it recreationally on the weekends and others will try to titrate a dose to help them deal with bad backs, bad knees, and the other pains that we are all supposed to suck up and tough out now, most people will really prefer staying straight.

The truth is that you are simply wrong here. The evidence is against you.

[EOTE]

10. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I'm directing that at you, not those "throwaway people" you refer to. I've always figure those ONDCP commercials were working amongst the least informed of us.

[dkf]

18. I'm saying that is what drugs do to people. And if we don't care then so be it.

Maybe not marijuana, but pretty much everything else.

I'm probably more in the libertarian frame of mind on this. Take your pleasure, take your consequences. But have a structure in place to cope with those who turn into worthless parents, and keep addicts away from any job that puts others in danger.

[Fumesucker]

19. I agree again...

We absolutely need to keep tobacco and alcohol addicts away from any job that puts others in danger..

Good thing politicians have no power in our country because if they did they might be able to put others in danger and we would have to keep them away from tobacco, alcohol and other drugs by constantly drug testing them.

Damn, it's like we've had some kind of Vulcan mind meld or something..

[EOTE]

21. You are extremely confused.

Do you know what the drug war is ALREADY doing to people? Do you know how much worse the drug issue is since the start of the drug war? You say you're of the libertarian frame of mind on this. You should know that this frame of mind does NOT involve law enforcement as part of those consequences. So if that is your idea of what a libertarian is, you're sorely confused. I have nothing against having structures in place to deal with addicts and keeping them away from jobs that might put other people in danger. That's kind of "duh" common sense. But your words advocate for the drug war, and that's just as dumb as it gets.

[dkf]

33. No I'm saying we know what drugs do to people so what will we do with those

That turn into drug zombies.

It is something that should be considered when advocating for legalization don't you think?

[Vincardog]

42. IF we accept your premise that drugs turn all people into drug zombies' which is BS on its' face

[Fumesucker]

45. Carl Sagan, drug zombie.. You can see it in his eyes...

[Fumesucker]

43. Drug zombies..

[Taverner]

77. I'm surprised you fell for this shit,

This is total DEA propaganda

Carl Sagan, Francis Ford Coppola, and George Washington were all pot smokers.

As for Opium, that has been in use for years. Edgar Allen Poe was a user for one.

Freud used Cocaine and Morphine. Regularly.

Drugs are a reality, my friend.

[Bluenorthwest]

80. Just for Francis, I have to say Coppola still is whatever he is

for unlike the other two, he is alive.

[Taverner]

86. 'Twas not drugs that killed them

It was old age in most cases

[EOTE]

52. Have you advanced beyond your DARE "Just Say No" years?

It's not like we don't have models from other societies who have done this already. Get this, when drugs are legalized and regulated, drug use tends to go down. So these drug zombies you speak of, whatever the hell they are, will become less common. Do you get all your info from the ONDCP website? Lemme give you a hint, the Netherlands created places to put all those drug crazed zombies, they're called coffee shops. Clearly this marked the end of Dutch civilization.

[awoke_in_2003]

75. Oooh, we have graduated from...

from "Reefer Madness" to "Drug Zombies". Now I am really scared.

[Vincardog]

8. +It's time to declare defeat and legalize the whole business, regulating it like alcohol and tobacco

[RKP5637]

62. "What the hell is it going to take for us?" Coming in last as we seem to do with

many things since Reagan.

[Roon]

79. The legalization of medical weed put my cousin out of business

he used to sell the KB and just to earn his stash, now he has to buy it. He doesn't mind though,he is happy with the reason that made him go belly up.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

9. Yeah, the cartels will still be criminal assholes.

And, yes, they will still engage in horrendous activities such as human trafficking,extortion, etc.

However, they will not have near the financial backing and funds from the massive amount of drugs being grown, transported, and sold. It takes this massive quanity of money needed to continue this large scale war against each other, the Mexican army, and the Mexican citizens. It also takes tons of money to continue to bribe police and the judiciary.

I think that if drugs were legalized the cartels would be reduced in power to resemble how our organized crime was in the 30's i.e. bad, but not uncontrollable and no longer a threat to the Mexican state.

[dkf]

37. But legalizing it in Mexico won't cut the proceeds, only legalizing it here will.

[Fumesucker]

46. Poor Mexico...

So close the the USA, so far from God..

[Celeborn Skywalker]

72. True.

I was thinking along the lines of legalization in Mexico as well as here.

[upstandingcitizens]

74. Yep

that's what I've been thinking while I've been reading this thread.
If Mexico legalizes it won't affect the cartels in any way. They exist to smuggle into the US where draconian drug laws allow the demand to exist. Mexico is just where they work from.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. You mean like we did with... alcohol?

hell the US should do this as well.

[dkf]

38. Pretty much everyone drinks alcohol.

Then again not everyone uses tobacco, but they used to. It makes one wonder what the usage statistics would look like.

It isn't illegal in Afghanistan and is readily available. That might be an interesting case study.

Hmm actually it is illegal in Afghanistan too.

Has anyone legalized all drugs?

[Fumesucker]

47. Yes, tobacco use dropped like a stone when it was made illegal..

Yours is truly a cunning plan, Milord.

Portugal is the answer to your question.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

[EOTE]

24. I'm just now understanding the brilliance of your logic.

You've discovered the perfect way to eliminate human trafficking. We need to find more and more things to outlaw so that drug cartels will have more and better ways to make money. Then they won't feel compelled to traffic in humans because they'll have enough money as it is. Besides, even if they DID still want to traffic humans, they'd all be in jail. Sorry if I didn't understand the subtle nature of your logic before.

[Fumesucker]

27. Yes, because we all know wealthy people are easily satiated by money..

Once they get enough money for their own needs they never, ever want more just for the sake of having more money..

It's truly a cunning plan, Milord..

[backwoodsbob]

51. errr...fail

the VAST majority of their money is drugs.Dry up the drug money and the cartels will wither on the vine.

[McCamy Taylor]

12. Will be great for their tourism industry. Will be the death of the drug cartels.

Which has more clout in Mexico? Tourism or drugs? I think tourism.

[asdjrocky]

25. It needs to be legal HERE, not THERE.

Really, the problem is us, not them.

[NightWatcher]

28. yeppers, we're the market that they are fighting over down there

remove the profit motive, remove the problem

[Fumesucker]

29. Our politicians know what's best for us..

And they're going to make sure we get it, good and hard..

[Uncle Joe]

30. Kicked and recommended for common sense, logic, compassion, freedom and privacy..

Thanks for the thread, ensho.:thumbsup:

[glinda]

54. That's right.... just give in. Especially if you can make a profit.

[Fumesucker]

58. Absolutely.. This war is only seventy five years old..

Practically an infant of a war..

As I said upthread, we have completely eliminated drugs from our prisons, all we have to do is turn the entire country into a gigantic prison and our drug problems will be over.

I'm sure you will join me in promoting this simple and fantastic idea to increase freedom.

[glinda]

71. actually, drugs have not made me free nor friends that have died from them

[Fumesucker]

73. Exactly my point..

We can only be truly free when we are all in a prison in which there is no access to any mind altering substances whatsoever.

[glinda]

84. I don't know. Have been pretty free out in the forest or wetlands...

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. And you all think it will get better when that happens?

[Fumesucker]

59. Not at all, we should never try anything new...

It wouldn't work anyway and will show that we are weak, we must send a message that we are strong and resolved..

In fact we should make alcohol, tobacco, chocolate, caffeine, sugar and anything else addictive illegal also, our citizens need to live lives of wholesome purity, free of any and all addictions.

Only then can we truly be free and happy.

[The Backlash Cometh]

65. You didn't answer the question.

But reading your answer it appears that you at least have the decency of showing a little doubt, if in snarky way.

[Fumesucker]

69. I think we ought to make the entire nation into a gigantic prison..

Since we have completely eliminated drugs from our prisons that is the road map for how to win the drug war, turn the nation into a gigantic prison, complete with searches, bedchecks, patdowns and finger waves whenever you leave your cell and so on.

It's really the only way we can be free from the evil influences of drugs and it's totally worth the minimal price that we will pay.

Indeed, just think of the economic benefits, there will be tens of millions of jobs created as guards, the drug testing industry will boom, particularly given all the professional leftists that will need to be tested every day.

I haven't quite figured out who's going to guard the guards but that's only a minor detail, I'm sure it can be worked out in committee.

[Uncle Joe]

61. Yes, there will be some improvement in the peoples' lives, but the U.S. must change as well.

Our Drug War policies are insane speeding our nation rapidly down a dead end and which only serve to aggravate the situation on multiple levels.

The issue of non-violent drug use should be educational, medical and or personal privacy, not criminal and damn sure not to be militarized.

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. Why don't we just adjust the laws?

Why don't we concentrate on the kingpins? And leave the peddlers and users alone?

[Uncle Joe]

70. Because the same dynamic is at work regarding the kingpins of the Drug Trade as is

of legal business, "they're too big to fail" they have the wealth to pay off the judges, police, politicians and media.

It always comes down to these politicians grandstanding about being "tough on crime" as they wear out the oppressed, minorities, poor,and even middle income class.

Any political leader citing the unjustness of these draconian, invasive laws is ridiculed as being soft on crime.

Increasingly legal society finds ways to profit from the peoples' misery, for profit prisons being just one example, and as their wealth and power increases along with the prison population, so does their ability to lobby, aka; bribe the Congress to pass even more draconian laws.

Make no mistake about it, if these dynamics continue, this will eventually morph in to a version of "First they came for the drug users, but I didn't care because I wasn't a drug user."

[Confusious]

76. We're wearyof it too.

This is where all the bullshit started.

If your friend got caught with anything in your car, whether you knew about it or not, they will take your car.

Taking without due process of law.

[OJones]

78. Gabor Mate on Dem Now

For those of you that are wary about legalization of hard drugs, I wanted to link to this Democracy Now interview with Gabor Mate.

He does inspiring work with addicts at a harm-reduction/safe injection clinic in Vancouver. In the interview, he discusses drawbacks to the punitive system we have now, and suggests an alternative caretaking treatment system that would work well alongside legalization.

He is very well-spoken; it's a great interview.

[Bluenorthwest]

81. Time to lease a nice place in San Miguel

[Tyler Everett]

82. Remember when Mexico decrimed all drug possession the was forced to flip/flop

Remember back when Fox was president. It was a Friday night when the Mexican parliament passed a law decriminalizing personal possession of every single drug. Fox made a statement that Friday that he would sign it into law. By Monday he had vetoed it under US pressure. I am pretty sure Calderon pushed through the same law and signed it into law without much mention in the US news.

[francolettieri]

83. http://www.leap.cc

http://www.leap.cc