Citibank's advice to female employees.

[Swede]

snip from the article-

While interviewing at Citibank, my friend stole something from the office. He doesn’t know why he did it. He just did. When he showed what he filched to friends, some were outraged at Citi, others just found it strange and funny.

http://davidxia.com/easilyamused/2010/08/12/citibanks-advice-to-women-grow-a-pair/

[seabeyond]

1. you arent going to hear me argue this. pass it to every young girl....

cant remember them all, but not remembering any that should not be told to young women. we, too, have been conditioned in our behaviors and this is a list of them.

i am always telling my niece to speak up and out...

[nashville_brook]

61. my thought exactly.

[Crankie Avalon]

2. Ask permission? Apologize? Play fair?

I guess you're a bad Citibank employee when you do the sorts of things that make you a decent human being?

[seabeyond]

3. the play fair one i would do regardless. who i am. and am still successful

women tend to apologize too much. when told a wrong, a simple, got it, works. employer doesnt want or need to hear an apology over everything.

permission? most employers would like employee to know the rules and have the initiative to implement without having employee check everything out with an ok

[Crankie Avalon]

43. Check your honor at the door, I guess.

To be honest, NO ONE, man or woman, seems to even acknowledge when they've done something wrong, anymore, let alone apologize and take responsibility for it. But I've seen enough corporate and bureaucratic interaction to know that sort of thing (being a real man, or a real woman, or best of all, a real person), will get you nowhere in that type of environment. On the contrary. What these tips boil down to is to remember to shut down the higher order of your brain while you're running after a piece cheese if you want to be the most "successful" rodent. The best advice of all: Find life's work that isn't so dehumanizing.

Citibank probably isn't the type of place one should work, anyway. It's only few steps from there to a place like GE, BP, or finally Halliburton.

[seabeyond]

70. Check your honor at the door,... i have never had the need to do that

and i dont think that list implies a worker need to.

[Radical Activist]

44. It is a bank after all.

Why would a decent human being want to work at citi?

[Crankie Avalon]

45. True dat.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. I'd like to see some confirmation before I believe this.

Because I don't.

[Matariki]

7. Yep. The 'stolen from Citibank' story is sketchy

but it's not too bad a list of advice.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Oversized letterhead is overdoing it a bit, IMO.

[Pithlet]

21. I agree. I just can't see a corporation doing this for fear of offending.

I think it's good advice. I just think they'd frame it in a more gender neutral way. I've been to too many corporate sensitivity training courses to think a corporation the size of Citibank would do this.

[JuniperLea]

9. I believe it...

I read Lois Frankel's "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office." I believe this is derived from that book.

[Constance Craving]

25. 99 Ways . . .

She also speaks about these very qualities in See Jane Lead: 99 ways for women to take charge at work. My supervisor, a very strong woman in the agency, told me some of these very things and rec'd Dr. Frankel's work.

[JuniperLea]

27. I'll have to check that book out too!

We have to do what we have to do... we deserve a slice of the corporate pie.

[blondeatlast]

35. Credited at the bottom of the whatever it is. nt

[blondeatlast]

28. Agreed. Pretty damnable evidence an EEOC complaint--

I doubt CitiBank's lawyers are that stupid.

[Matariki]

5. I was prepared to be 'outraged'

instead, I'd say that's generally good advice.

[blondeatlast]

31. That's what I was thinking--but I still think it's a fake. nt

[Matariki]

52. Oh most certainly a fake.

[JuniperLea]

6. Looks like excellent advice to me...

I've been working in Corporate America for over 20 years now, and I've heard, and have agreed with, most of these bits of advice.

The only one I argue with is "grooming" in public. IMHO, there has never been anything wrong with a woman sneaking a peek in a compact and applying lipstick in public. Femininity isn't a crime. I enjoy being a girl and if you don't like it, tough. Men should pay more attention to their appearance and meeting attitudes too.

The limp handshake deal is one of the worst things I see women do. I was taught to "match the grip" of the person you're shaking hands with... when presented with a limp handshake, I still use a firm grip... not crushing, firm.

[Matariki]

14. On the other hand...

Corporate culture has very shallow ways of evaluating things. Very primitive really. As if any culturally agreed upon sign of 'weakness' correlate in any way to the skills a person brings to their job.

It's also very culture-centric. A 'firm handshake' and steady eye contact means completely different things to Americans than it does to Asians for instance.

[JuniperLea]

22. True...

But I see that changing, slowly. The only way we can keep it changing is for more women to float to the top like sweet cream;) It's not easy. I've seen many a female corporate head picked apart for being "warm and fuzzy."

Totally primitive... well put.

I also agree with the cultural differences in other countries; that's why we have protocol coaches when dealing with other cultures. I always advise women to use the professionals we have available. We're breaking the mold... one little tiny chip at a time, but it's changing. Too much too quickly and there would be revolt. This is not a bad reflection on women by any means... but it may be on that primative tribal mentality.

[Matariki]

48. I've been entertaining myself this morning

reading about stupid job interview questions.

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=stupid+job+interview+questions&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CTyDfH4CKTJygLJSEygS-lKnmBAAAAKoEBU_QMNjw#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=stupid+job+interview+questions+&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=280187d6f0589da0

[JuniperLea]

55. Oh, that is rich!

I'm going to save some of those! :rofl: Good stuff! Thanks:)

[Confusious]

71. Play by the rules really bothers me ( stretch the rules, don't get caught)

I guess I shouldn't be surprised though, with all the cheaters on wall street.

[Mimosa]

10. 'Women should act like men to get ahead' makes the world more masculine.

I think women denying who and what we are is actually anti-feminist.

[JuniperLea]

13. I couldn't disagree more!

As a woman who swims with sharks daily, I can tell you that women need to be every bit as tough as men in the boardroom... but that's no sign they have to lose their femininity! What makes you think a woman can't be strong AND feminine? I consider myself to be exactly that!

[Mimosa]

17. Juniper, I wasn't saying a woman can't be 'tough'

But being rude (as in the purported 'Citibank' placard) is different. :)

[JuniperLea]

26. I must have missed the rude bit... eom

[uncommon]

20. "Femininity" is a social creation anyway.

So fuck all of this, seriously.

[JuniperLea]

29. It may well be...

It doesn't really matter where it came from, it exists.

I like my femininity, and I see no reason to change that, and I see no reason why it should somehow hold me back.

Yes, in a perfect world it wouldn't matter. Lemmeno when the world gets all perfect and shit, and I'll join you in the "fuck all this, seriously." Seriously.

[uncommon]

42. Embrace your oppression -

everyone else is doing it.

:eyes:

[JuniperLea]

56. Not even close...

I see it as rising above the oppression AND the horrible conditioning women are put through. Perspective is everything.

[uncommon]

18. dupe delete

[uncommon]

19. You think that weak handshakes, constantly apologizing, and being naive are naturally "womanly"

traits that women should cling to?

Your response is ridiculous. The behavior cited on this list is taught to girls and socially enforced from birth.

I have a vagina and everything that goes with it, not a weak personality OR a weak handshake.

[seabeyond]

24. these things are about confidence, not being a man. not gender specific

but conditionings from young girls, on how to be good girls.... things taught to us, not innate.

[JuniperLea]

32. Not gender specific...

Very true. Not innate, also true. We were conditioned from birth on how to act to gain approval. I'd rather gain respect, and I think showing women how the conditioning we've had doesn't get us respect is a good thing.

[seabeyond]

33. and your post... so true. right there with you. nt

[EFerrari]

54. They are gender specific because they are taught to women. n/t

[seabeyond]

58. because generally our young girls are taught, sit quiet, quiet voice, yada yada...

but as you see thru out thread, there are men that have shy issue too and can use 'confident" behavior and body language. and speaking loud enough to be heard is just considerate.

[EFerrari]

65. I have two sons. n/t

[seabeyond]

67. i do, too. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

39. Totally agree. nt

[EFerrari]

53. Yes, it's a particularly interesting piece of anti-feminism, too.

It defines power as something that women need to get from men by acting like men. Who knew. :)

[nashville_brook]

62. i agree, there's a counter-feminist tone in this, however...

if i were giving my girl friends advice on how to get along in my particular hyper-competitive office, I'd mention at least a couple of these things. especially the thing about contributing in meetings. have something to say, and say it with conviction.

[lukasahero]

11. There's good advice there

but it's delivered badly.

Most successful women already know this stuff. Young women need to be taught. It would have been nice if the tone of the card was positive but either way, women need to hear it.

It's too bad that we live in a society, however, that believes "playing fair" is a detriment to success. Does that speak more about the women or the men?

[tjwash]

12. Fuck yeah...random blog...poor quality photo...overly sensational headline.

I saw it on the internet...it has to be be legit :thumbsup:

[Pithlet]

15. I think the problem is that it is advice to female employees.

Isn't it important for anyone to be more assertive? I think it's valuable information that could be helpful regardless of gender. The implication is that women aren't assertive enough could be construed as offensive.

[Phil The Cat]

34. Most of that applies to me as well

I've always tried to be a modern, sensitive man - and it has got me living in a trailer next to train tracks with, quite literally $2 in the bank!

It puts me out of my comfort zone, but the rules are the rules!

[uncommon]

16. Some of it is accurate - it is reflective of the behavior we teach to girls

from birth.

However I don't agree with 8 - women are not more naive, they are just taught to fake it.

We need to stop teaching women to act like this and then they will not do it.

[sinkingfeeling]

23. Hurray for Citi for posting this for its employees. It says, "What Not to do".

This is from Lois Frankel's book, "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office". It's a guide to what women often do that sabotages their chances for advancement in the corporate world.

http://www.drloisfrankel.com/books_office.html

[qb]

30. I guess I've sabotaged my career like a woman.

Being an introvert, I am guilty of several of the items on the list.
The advice is good, but making such generalizations about women in this day and age is silly...
especially since a lot of men would benefit from this advice as well.

Besides, I know a woman who could badger anyone at Citibank into a fetal position.

[seabeyond]

36. girls are generally taught.... and certainly not an absolute. males are normally taught otherwise

and absolutely not always

no, this is not gender specific. it is for all of us.

good luck on that.

to be shy, or even introverted, must be hard. i was shy younger. but from about 18 i worked really hard not to be. now.... well hell, can be embarrassing, i am so not shy.

[trackfan]

37. 1,4,5,6,7,8&9 apply to me, and I'm a man.

I just consider those things to be good manners - and the opposite, taken to the extreme, to be tending towards Hitlerism.

[Crankie Avalon]

40. Hear, hear.

Seems like people are rude enough already these days without pretending that their boorishness is justified because it's being done in some debased, "corporate" environment.

[JerseygirlCT]

38. All assuming male dominance in business

and that a typically "male" approach to relations is the proper one.

I'd prefer to see us move away from celebrating the aggressive and self-interested, toward a more cooperative mind-set.

And sitting like a boy doesn't make you any smarter.

[Radical Activist]

46. Most of these tips are for dealing with poor leaders

who pay more attention to superficial signs of confidence than to actual competence.

[JerseygirlCT]

63. That too

And it's far too prevalent.

[madamesilverspurs]

41. Poor Citi,

they apparently can't afford a proofreader. Either that, or they've invented their own syntax for #7:
"...therefore you are not get taken seriously." Yeesh.

-

[tammywammy]

47. Nothing annoys me more than when I go to shake another woman's hand and she gives me the limp

wrist, or just hands out her fingers. :wtf:

[seabeyond]

59. hate it. and then shake a mans hand and you get that wimp shake cause they are use to it from woman

and

i HATE shaking hands as it is.... then to get a wuss shake..

lol

[WolverineDG]

66. like you're supposed to kiss it or something

:eyes:

Firm grip & don't let go first. :evilgrin:

on edit: Oh, & DON'T let them turn your hand under theirs, especially if they're males on equal or lesser footing than you.

dg

[tammywammy]

68. I'm a firm shake

My dad taught me how to shake hands when I was a kid. :evilgrin:

[JoePhilly]

49. I would not be surprised if this is the work of a diversity effort ...

Many large companies who want to help women move up, will bring together women in their ranks who are successful and ask them to come up with recommendations for HOW other women can help themselves get ahead.

I recall a female manager I had years ago. She told me a story (I'm a guy btw). She had worn a flowery dress to work that day and she ended up being called to an urgent meeting with major executives. There was a major issue and she was "the expert" ... so she had to go and present immediately.

Everyone in the room was a man. All in dark suits, white shirts, red ties. And there she is, in a yellow, flowery dress. She gave the pitch, and was successful, but decided that she was not going to end up in that situation again. She felt out of place.

Her point was that companies, especially big companies, have a culture. You may fit right in, you may not. But you need to be aware of what that culture is, because if you get too far outside the culture, you get left behind.

What she found is that you have to fit within the culture, get recognized as an expert, and then you can start to change the culture. But the first step, is recognizing the culture and what not to do right now.

And that's how this list strike me. If a woman wants to be taken seriously by make and female colleagues, no low cut tops. In many business situations, men and women write you off for that.

You have to know the culture, find you space, and then once established, you can expand. But not before.

[tammywammy]

51. I work for a large company

And I think you're spot on. As far as dress, I have a guy friend at work that was told by his boss to not wear polo style shirts, except on working Fridays, that in order to move up, he'll need to wear a button down every day. Heck, another guy told me his boss told him to stop wearing jeans every day (which isn't against the rules) and wear slacks if he expects to be promoted.

The dress thing goes both ways.

Also, this large Fortune 100 company also has diversity groups, and I can see the Woman's group putting something out like this.

[JoePhilly]

60. Yup ...

There are lots of unwritten rules in any corporate culture. If you want to advance, you have to figure them out.
Then, if you get established, you can break the rules, and honestly, you can become an example. You become an "out of the box thinker" ... which is often a value.

But you have to be "established" to do it.

Learn the rules, play the game, then break the rules. And let your people break the same rules. You become a maverick and an asset.

[jobycom]

50. Interesting. I do at least half of those things, and my ex-spouse (the female) doesn't.

Which may be why she rocks at business and me, not so much.

[blondeatlast]

57. But really, could you just stop smacking your lips after applying your

Infallible #315?

[WolverineDG]

64. I no longer say "I'm sorry" when some man bumps into me

I heard about this once--why should women apologize for existing? Now, if I am the one who bumps into anyone, I'll apologize. But you bumping into me? Nope.

I also started copying the way my male supervisors "apologized" to me--"If you were outraged/offended/hurt by what I did/said, I apologize." You should see the heads snap back when an uppity woman couches her apologies in male terms.

dg

[Confusious]

72. I really f***ing hate language games like that.

Doesn't even have the guts to apologize directly.

[WolverineDG]

74. Yup, so I do the same to those who pull that crap

I reserve my sincere apologies to those who deserve them & someone who prefaces an "apology" with "If you are offended" doesn't deserve one.

dg

[Swamp Rat]

69. That list should be called, "How to be a ignorant, fuckhead bully."

I'm too tired to type out how stupid this thing is, on so many levels.

I'm glad I cut up my Citibank cards years ago.

[phasma ex machina]

73. +1 nt

[alarimer]

75. If you have to do that to work at a corporate office, you are completely soulless.

I guess being a corporate drone means checking your integrity and humanity at the door, as well as your honor, as someone else already said.

Fuck soulless corporations. I will never, ever work in the private sector, if those are the kinds of things that are demanded of me.