Journalist: Women raped at Abu Ghraib were later ‘honor killed’

[unhappycamper]

Journalist: Women raped at Abu Ghraib were later ‘honor killed’
By Daniel Tencer
Saturday, September 11th, 2010 -- 10:24 pm

Some women who were raped at the US's Abu Ghraib prison facility in Iraq were later "honor killed" by their families, says a Jordanian reporter who writes on women's issues.

"In Abu Ghraib, women were tortured by the Americans much more than the men," Lima Nabil told The Independent. "One woman said she witnessed five girls being raped. Most of the women in the prison were raped – some of them left prison pregnant. Families killed some of these women – because of the shame."

Nabil, who has reported extensively on the status of women in the Arab world and runs a home for runaway girls, made the comments to renowned foreign correspondent Robert Fisk in an article on honor killings in Jordan. Nabil did not expand on her comments in the article.

Fisk reported that a "very accurate source in Washington" in close contact with military personnel has confirmed "terrible stories of gang rape" by US forces at the now-notorious prison.

The unnamed source told Fisk that images of women being raped were behind the Obama administration's decision not to release any more pictures of abuses at Abu Ghraib. The original set of images, showing male prisoners being abused, were released in 2004, horrifying and angering the Arab world.



unhappycamper comment: And a special shout out to Maj. Gen. Gefforey Miller for taking Guantanamo torture techniques to the crazies at Abu Gharab. And let's not forget Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez's hand in implementing these new American torture techniques at Abu Gharab.

[Orrex]

1. Terrific. The problem takes care of itself.

:puke: and :sarcasm:

[old mark]

2. Rec. More of Bush's good christian soldiers, no doubt....nt

[Bragi]

3. So we blame Bush for the "honor killings" too?

What about the men who conducted the alleged killings?

What about the religious teachings that call for honor killings?

Any responsibility there?

[Mimosa]

5. Any responsibility there? YES. But 'we' shouldn't be 'there.' n/t

[MH1]

6. Bush is indirectly responsible for those killings that would not have occurred

had he not used the US Military to invade Iraq.

Of course the kind of people who practice such 'traditions' are the ones who are directly responsible, but we can't influence positive changes in their culture by doing the kind of shit we do.

As to the rapists, they may have started out as thugs or thug-ready, but in a sense they are victims too, just as soldiers in Vietnam who participated in horrific events because they felt they had to go along. Bush is responsible for the chain of command that created that climate.

[another saigon]

15. The US Administration knew the consequences of Invading an Arab Country

and occupying it. So yes, they are responsible. The US also has no problem with having 'allies' with countries who do the same damn thing. Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others. Hypocrisy is one of our best exports.

[Bragi]

17. The invasion was completely unjustified, so are 'honor' killings /nt

[another saigon]

27. fyi

-snip-

I must take exception to the very unprofessional attack lodged against my integrity by blogger Melissa Roddy ("Correcting the Record on Bibi Ayesha," posted Sept. 7) as she tries to make the case for keeping US troops in Afghanistan by rerunning the story of Aisha, the mutilated young Afghan girl pictured on a recent TIME magazine cover. That cover made such an indelible impression on the American public that most readers seem to have ignored reporter Aryn Baker's carefully nuanced article suggesting caution in negotiations already underway with the Taliban. Similarly, Roddy ignores the argument of my recent editorial in the Nation and zealously denounces me for having "untruthfully claimed" that when Aisha told me her story, "the Taliban didn't come into it at all."

To disprove that fact, she quotes a member of Women for Afghan Women, the American organization running the Kabul shelter where Aisha lived for several months. The staff member, Esther Hyneman, reportedly said that while I did meet Aisha at the shelter, it was only for a few minutes, that I spoke through a translator, and that Aisha answered in monosyllables. For the record, Ms. Hyneman was not in Afghanistan at the time. In fact, I had a very long conversation with Aisha, with particular attention to the circumstances of the dreadful assault. And while the shelter normally provides a staff member to translate for visitors, I worked with my own translators -- two of them to insure accuracy -- which may help to explain why the story I heard differs so substantially from the official version put out by Ms. Hyneman. When the TIME cover story appeared, I also verified with other sources who had also talked with Aisha that the Taliban had nothing to do with her personal tragedy. I would have told these things to Ms. Roddy had she bothered to ask, but apparently the official story was the only one she wanted to hear.

She is right, however, in saying that some commentators have made improbable arguments to disprove that story, mainly because it is used so shamelessly to manipulate public opinion in favor of continuing a war that almost everyone involved acknowledges cannot be resolved by military means. Roddy is right also to fear that the withdrawal of foreign forces may set women back, particularly in Kabul where many women made some gains after the fall of the Taliban. But she doesn't seem to be aware that women have already lost much of that progress to creeping Talibanization within the Karzai government that the US put in place, still supports, and in effect fights for. Those of us who have spent years on the ground in Afghanistan know that in three decades of hopelessly misguided foreign policy, the US has created for itself an immensely complicated dilemma that very probably has no good solution. But war is never, anywhere, good for women -- and it is never fought on our behalf. The question that demands our attention now is not whether American troops should stay or leave Afghanistan. That decision has been made. The question now is how to make a kind of "peace" in which women might still live.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-jones/correcting-the-record_b_711496.html

[Hannah Bell]

65. americans' responsibility is for what our government & citizens do.

the fact is our soldiers tortured, raped & killed innocents -- & it started with the lies of gwb.

honor killings are completely irrelevant to those facts, which are horrendous.

we've killed many more women than there ever were honor killings in iraq & afghanistan.

disgusting to talk about them as though they're the equivalent of what we've done: destroyed women, families, and entire societies in addition to the torture, rape & murder.

[FormerDittoHead]

90. I'm not too sure about that. SHOULD have, yes, but did they?

I remember hearing from several sources that George Bush didn't know the difference between the Sunni and Shiite.

I remember they had to bring in an expert to make a presentation to him explaining the difference when the sectarian violent erupted after the invasion.

Their ignorance was profound on all levels of the executive branch and military, explaining the clusterfuck of Iraq when basically every possible mistake was made.

[AnArmyVeteran]

21. If fundy Christians controlled our government there would be equally horrendous punishments.

[Cleita]

42. The buck stops with the person who started this first.

I would put the blame on Cheney though. He was the one who pushed for this war with Iraq. There would have been no honor killings in this context if there had been no war with Iraq. But yes those who killed the women need to be brought up on charges as well, however, the ultimate blame lies with the Bush administration.

[w4rma]

82. YES. It is expected in that culture. The Republican administration deserves *full* responsibility

for this.

[Capitalocracy]

86. We don't have to choose one.

They are both responsible.

[indimuse]

89. ahhh

YES!

[Solly Mack]

4. K&R

May 7, 2004
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/08/iraq/main616338.shtml

"Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told reporters, "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. we're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience." He did not elaborate."



War crimes.

[stray cat]

7. Honor killing is ok I guess since it isn't done by americans

ItS actually condescending -arabs can't be accused of murder because they don't know any better -so honor killing is ok? It can't be because we honor their beliefs because it would be condemned here is a Christian did it? Do we think so little of other nationalities compared to ourselves?

[Raineyb]

12. That's not what they're saying. But you damn sure can't make the claim that those women weren't put

further into harm's way by the fact that our soldiers were there raping them.

We have no business being there. This is just yet another problem caused by our presence. Iraq was a secular country this kind of shit wasn't going on like that and these women are being subjected to this barbarity because our soldiers raped them an act that could not have happened if Bush didn't send them there in the first place. (And we let the country fall into a morass of sectarian violence that let the religious nuts run amok, we left the country in chaos, etc, etc.)

Why the fuck are you making excuses for Bush's fuckery anyway?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

28. Who the fuck is saying that?

Of all you're dumb ass posts this one has to rank at the top. Is it too much to ask that you read things before replying with your usual nonsense?

[WinkyDink]

8. Bush loves the troops.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. We.were.pigs.

[Bragi]

13. so .are. the. men. who. did. the. "honor". killing /nt

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. We must have known the fate that the girls would face when the

gang rapes took place.

[customerserviceguy]

76. And when police arrest a man for domestic violence

They should know that when he gets out, he'll rough her up even harder.

[CoffeeCat]

26. Both are equally evil, disgusting and inhumane acts...

I'm not quite understanding.

A man rapes a woman. The woman comes home and her husband kills her because she was raped.

Both are horrendous crimes perpetrated by evil, sick people.

I think we can all agree on that.

Raping an innocent, defenseless, imprisoned woman--when you are sent into the country to "free" people is
downright psychopathic. Just as it's true that the family members who killed these innocent victims
are also evil and sick.

One does not negate the other.

[Bragi]

31. I agree completely /nt

[femrap]

71. Never mind that

brutal rapes occur every day, every hour in this country.

And very few rapists see a jail cell? Why? It's the patriarchy, stupid.

[CoffeeCat]

78. I totally agree...

...and this may be splitting hairs, but women are taught to remain silent.

Sure, the police or people with any power, would never say that they tell women to
remain silent when they are sexually assaulted.

But we all see how women are treated once they have accused a man of rape. We know
what the trial would look like, and how her clothing and maybe her past history
would be used against her in front of a jury. We see the light sentences.

We are taught that talking means pain and suffering for the victim, with some
chance of justice, maybe.

The entire system leads to silence. It's very sad.

[femrap]

81. It is beyond sad....

the patriarchal system is set up to work against women. It's horrific.

Take care.

[lostnfound]

10. People unaware that this was happening haven't been paying attention.

Completely predictable knowing what we know about that culture's history of 'honor killings'.

[uncommon]

11. Rape is a weapon of war - always has been.

This doesn't surprise me in the least, it's just incredibly sad.

[Bragi]

14. There are two crimes here: rape and 'honor' killing

I condemn both, and hold the perpetrators of each responsible for their crimes.

[uncommon]

16. Indeed.

Honor killing is just another arm of the beast of women's oppression. :(

[L0oniX]

53. 3 crimes. The first is when our troops rape our own female troops and get away with it.

[WinkyDink]

88. I'll see you and raise you one: ILLEGAL INVASION.

[Nay]

19. Rape is certainly a weapon of war -- but it's happening against our

female military as well. They can't even go to the outhouse without fear of rape FROM THEIR OWN COMRADES IN ARMS. So rape just isn't a 'weapon of war' -- it seems to be a weapon against women at large, one that our troops seem willing to visit upon any woman in the vicinity.

[L0oniX]

51. I am soooo relieved that I am not the only one who sees this.

I get to feeling a little alone due to some responses.
:hi:

[TheKentuckian]

18. Because we as a society have no interest in accountability, we are especially culpable

In my eyes while we are not guilty of these murders by looking forward and turning the page we buy some serious contribution and by refusing justice the entire nation has bought a hell of a lot of stock in rape, torture, unlawful invasion, and the blood of tens of thousands of innocent people.

We each get a piece of this shit because the vast majority seem to either not give a shit or are joining the beating of the drums or covering for political purposes.

We need to really and truly consider what we are sweeping under the rug because I don't think that is who and what we as Americans want to be.

[L0oniX]

52. You can't expect our troops who rape our female troops to not rape women in other countries.

[L0oniX]

20. I'll care about that after they stop the rapes in our military where over 20% of women get raped...

and that's just those that get reported.

[Bragi]

22. I care about all violence against women /nt

[L0oniX]

23. I'm care about my own before and above others.

[Forkboy]

29. Humans are your own.

[L0oniX]

32. Oh thanks. I didn't know that. pfffft You tell me who's going to come first ..your familiy? or other

[Forkboy]

34. Why is that a choice?

And in my case, "other" would come first. And you know what, my family would appreciate that more than anyone.

How does your family feel?

[L0oniX]

41. Don't you think we've spent and done enough for other countries? Isn't about ...

time we helped ourselves for a change? Aren't we in a very precarious socioeconomic position right now? How many military bases do we have in other countries? Do you not believe that 1 in 7 people in the US are living in poverty? Shouldn't we stop the rapes in our own military and then maybe look to stop it in other countries? Are other countries problems more important than ours? Are other countries jobs more important than ours? Is democracy more important in other countries than ours? What do you think is a correct balance between helping other counties and helping our own? I will fall on the side of the USA and maybe I am a patriot for that.

[Forkboy]

Ok, I'll tackle these one at a time.

Isn't about time we helped ourselves for a change?

Yes, but not at the expense of others.

Aren't we in a very precarious socioeconomic position right now?

Yes

How many military bases do we have in other countries?

Last I saw it was something like 177.

Do you not believe that 1 in 7 people in the US are living in poverty?

Believe it? I live it. Still don't want to see myself gain at the expense of others even less fortunate.

Shouldn't we stop the rapes in our own military and then maybe look to stop it in other countries?

Not an either or question.

Are other countries problems more important than ours?

Quite often, yes. Do we have any problems equal to that of Rwanda? Are other countries humans worth less than this country's humans?

Are other countries jobs more important than ours?

Sometimes, yes. Why do you seem so eager to buy into this paradigm of "us vs them"?

Is democracy more important in other countries than ours?

I'd say it's about equal, overall. Do you feel ours is more special?

What do you think is a correct balance between helping other counties and helping our own?

This is where we'll find agreement. I don't think we're much good to anyone if we're not strong ourselves. We could help a lot of people if we weren't so stupid.

I will fall on the side of the USA and maybe I am a patriot for that.

I fall on the side of all humans, Americans or otherwise, and as such, I'll never be considered a "patriot", something I'm very proud of.

[L0oniX]

45. "I don't think we're much good to anyone if we're not strong ourselves."

That's mostly what I am trying to say and get at ...and secondly that we are hypocrites if we don't address our own problems first. What is the phrase ...take the log out of your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from another.

[Forkboy]

48. Ok, we're not really all that far apart then.

Glad we could sort this out. ;)

:toast:

[jgraz]

83. Are you sure about that with this one?

I'm not.

[noamnety]

30. Viewing people as The Other

is part of the reason violence against women happens.

[L0oniX]

33. 100% reading into it what isn't there. You'll let your family get harmed while you protect others?

I wouldn't want to be your child.

[Forkboy]

36. I wouldn't want you as my child, so it all works out.

[noamnety]

37. You weren't referring to your own child. You were referring to strangers

and classifying them as your own type vs. The Other and valuing some lives over others even though you didn't have any personal relationship with them at all.

What you described is the underlying concept of racism - and all prejudices.

I am equally glad I was not your child; those aren't values I would want to have learned.

[JI7]

39. exactly, how does caring about these women take away from caring about American women ?

the story wasn't about some rescue attempt being made and only one could have been saved. or anyting else like that which could have brought on such a comment.

[L0oniX]

44. Don't you think we've spent enough time and money on other countries problems?

What about our country? Why is it such a point of focus when rape happens in other countries and no one seems to see the hypocrisy of us not addressing the rapes in our own military?

[noamnety]

47. It needs to be a point of focus because it's OUR MILITARY doing the raping.

It's disgusting to be dismissive of that on ANY level by saying well, that's not quite so bad if US soldiers were just raping those foreigners.

Of course that implies that I agree with your basic premise - that the rape of Iraqi women by US troops is a point of focus. It most definitely has NOT been a point of focus. Most people in the media, the general public, and even on DU spend much more energy fawning over or dissing what various first ladies wear.

[L0oniX]

50. I guess I could have been more direct. If we stopped our troops from raping our own troops...

maybe we would have a better chance of stopping them occurring to other women in other countries.

[L0oniX]

43. You've jumped the shark. When do we take care of our own?

Will it be when all other countries have stopped the raping that we will stop it in our own military? What comes first? How can you help others when you can't even help your own? Oh I see now when anyone talks about their own it's racism? Bull shit! Where did you read me saying anything about other races? Accusing me of that is just a pathetic tactic to distract from a resonable discussion about are own problems. Just when do you think would be a good time to stop the rapes in our own military? I for one am tired of seeing my taxes go to the military when our people are out of jobs and our women get raped in the military. Maybe you think there is enough money and resources to go around and help the other countries.

"What you described is the underlying concept of racism - and all prejudices." I am for the people of the US first ...call me a racist for it.

[antigone382]

67. We're not talking about stopping all rape worldwide...

We're talking about rapes committed by our own military in other countries. Dealing with that isn't "helping other countries before we help our own," it's taking responsibility for our own actions. And there's no reason we can't crack down on rapes by military personnel across the board, whether their victims are fellow servicemembers or foreign women in U.S. custody.

[L0oniX]

69. Always attack a problem at its root first IMO.

[noamnety]

73. The root is the criminal - not the identity of the victim.

It is really disgusting to prioritize which rape victims are more important based on nationality.

[L0oniX]

74. It is equally twisted to avoid the root of the problem and expect a solution.

[JI7]

38. that's a fucked up way of thinking when it comes to things like Rape

we aren't talking about something like the olympics or building a park in our neighborhood over others.

[L0oniX]

46. Fine then if you had your way then we wouldn't address the rapes in our own military...

until we forcefully stop them in other countries first. Nice.

[JI7]

54. now you make up shit, I am no thte one who said i care about one over the other

now you are trying to accuse those who called you out of caring about one over the other.

[L0oniX]

59. Talk about a fucked up way of thinking ....jeeze.

[JI7]

55. now you make up shit, I am no thte one who said i care about one over the other

now you are trying to accuse those who called you out of caring about one over the other.

[L0oniX]

60. "make up shit" ??? Dude take an anger managment course.

[customerserviceguy]

77. Yes, but on the other hand

"Blame the victim" for rape used to happen commonly in this country, and I'm sure in many parts, it still does.

Anytime a rape is reported and some asks, "Where was she at, and what was she wearing?" it's the same thing. In fundamental Islam, they just kill them as a way of not having to ask those questions.

Why we expended 4,500 American lives to attempt to 'civilize' these people is one of the great mysteries out there.

[readmoreoften]

40. Yes, because its obviously a zero sum game. US troops raping female troops and Afghan women are

totally separate issues. One can certainly imagine a situation where Afghan women are raped but female troops, aren't. :sarcasm: :crazy:

[L0oniX]

49. Exactly!

Maybe if we would stop the rapes in our own military then our troops wouldn't think they could get away with it in other countries. A big point that is being missed and in a most ignorant and distractive way. See the above responses. According to some, I am a racist now for referring to "our people". Looks to me like some people just don't want to look at our own problems ...it's so much easier to find fault with others/countries. pffft Thanks for your understanding response.

[JI7]

56. no, you are a racist because you clearly dismissed one group of women who are being raped

[L0oniX]

58. Really?pffft I just care about our own problem with our military raping our own women...

...and maybe you think that is ok and has nothing to do with our troops raping women in other countries ...but go on with your dillusion.

[antigone382]

61. The problem is in your wording, not people's reactions to it.

If you had started by saying "we won't successfully stop our military raping the women of other countries until we can stop them raping their own female compatriots," I don't think most posters would have taken such offense. But you said you wouldn't care about the imprisonment, rape, and murder of innocent women (who had no choice whatsoever than to be where they were) until after the rape of American military women was stopped. That's a hugely different statement, and you can't fault anyone else for finding it disgusting.

As far as taking care of our problems before we try to help the rest of the world, there are two sides to that coin. I'll agree that the military response just doesn't really cut it in most cases, but the truth is that America and the rest of the Western world has sucked up a lot of the world's resources and left a lot of people in poverty, under the control of regimes whose oppressiveness is less important to us than their compliance with our desires.

Do you think all of our jobs would have been outsourced if we had actually bothered to ensure that the countries with whom we do business had decent wages and working conditions or a sound environmental policy? Do you think our national wealth would be so severely depleted if so much of our income hadn't been spent on cheap clothing and baubles produced in exploitative sweatshops in some distant land whose suffering "wasn't our problem?" Do you think we would face the economic crisis we do now if we had shown some restraint and implemented sound energy policies that would have prevented us from sucking up so much of the world's fossil fuel supplies? Do you think we would even be in Iraq or Afghanistan if we hadn't been interfering in the Middle East for years, not to help the people, but *to serve our own interests,* namely the thirst for more and more oil?

The world in general, and America in particular, has created a global economy, for better or worse. The world's problems are our problems, whether we like it or not. We have no choice but to involve ourselves in the solutions. Unfortunately, the ways we are currently involving ourselves (e.g. through military occupation) are still generally dedicated to preserving our own interests. That isn't the answer that is going to save us or the rest of the world; but neither is crawling into our own hole to lick our wounds.

[L0oniX]

62. You also have jumped the shark.

I said: I'll care about that after they stop the rapes in our military where over 20% of women get raped ...and that's just those that get reported.

"you said you wouldn't care about the imprisonment, rape, and murder of innocent women until after the rape of American military women was stopped"

As you can see I said that I will care about the other after we stop the rapes in our military. I never said I wouldn't care. In fact stopping the rapes in our own military is a prerequisite for stopping them in other countries and does show care for others. I know a lot of people don't want to hear about the rapes of our own military women. I assumed that most people would see where not addressing the rape of our own military women is or may be a direct cause for the rapes of women in other countries. It's a matter of priorities.

[antigone382]

63. saying you'll care about it afterwards implies that you don't care about it now.

Please define the phrase "jumping the shark," if you don't mind. I don't understand what you mean.

You've specifically stated multiple times in this thread that you care more about your own people than others. If that isn't racist, it's certainly nationalistic, which is just as bad.

I care a lot about the rape of women in the American military and I've spoken up about it on this board before. Certainly the issue is connected, no one said it isn't; but it isn't an either-or scenario. There's no practical reason the rape of foreign women in military custody can't be combatted along with the rape of American military women. Disavowing one does not mean accepting the other.

Maybe your intentions weren't bad, but isn't it possible that people are reacting the way they are because of the way you worded your view? How do you think someone with female family members in Iraq would feel reading those words? Would it be that bad to just admit that you didn't express yourself in the best way and move on?

[L0oniX]

64. I believe in solving our own problems first before attending to others.

In this case the problem IMO is because we have not addressed and corrected the rapes of our own female military personnel. I can't help it that all some people want to do on DU is fight and read into what people say. That's their problem ...not mine. Jumping the shark IMO means missing the point.

Oh and BTW "implies" is or may be a means to read into something that which may not be there.

[antigone382]

66. There IS no solving our own problems before attending to others.

That's MY point. At this time in history, our problems are intricately tied up with problems in the rest of the world. Yes, we need to address and correct the rapes of female military personnel, but it's foolhardy to suggest that we not focus any attention on rape and abuse of foreign women in U.S. custody until that problem is taken care of. How long will it take to get the rate of female servicemembers' rape down to zero? In the meantine, what will we tell the Iraqi women in military prisons who may face death when they emerge?

I'm trying to understand why you see this as an either/or problem. You define these problems as interreletated, then state that we can't deal with one until we eradicate the other. Can you give me some reason that both problems can't be dealt with at the same time, and even using the same strategies? Why can't we increase investigation and prosecution of ALL rapes by military personnel, whoever the victim is? It seems to me that firmly refusing to tolerate *any* rape under *any* circumstances is the *only* way to really destroy the culture of rape. There is no reason for policies regarding rape and sexual assault to assign different values to different rape victims, in essence defining the rape of certain groups as more acceptable or less heinous than others. No rape is acceptable under any circumstances, ever. Why not take the recognized relationship between these problems one step further and view them as the *same* problem, the devaluation and depersonalization of women in general, and tackle them as one?

[L0oniX]

68. As I understand it the first thing to be done is to set a higher moral standard for those...

who wish to join the military. Second is to punish those who rape our own troops and to not hinder the reporting of it or cover up the rapes. Female and or all troops should have confidence that the crime of rape will be investigated without harassment or attempts to cover up or neglect in the procurement of evidence. The example has to be set so that our troops will think about the consequence and the likely hood of being caught and punishment before they rape women in other countries. It's really a straight forward means of addressing the problem at its root. These steps would go a long way to reducing the instances of rape in our own military and thus the rape of women in other countries. Iraq is not the only country where our troops have raped women. If one cares about the rape of women by our troops in other countries then one should care about stopping it here at its root or it will continue to happen. I imagine that a woman who has been raped by one of her own fellow troops might also be more concerned with that rape over those that happen in another country ...especially one where we should have never been in the first place. I take sides with her first.

[antigone382]

72. Certainly, there are good ideas there, but I still object to your premise.

I think the root problem is the devaluation of all women, of their perceived status as nonhumans who exist for men's pleasure. The prevention of that mindset should be a major focus of military training, prior to ever going into the field. In that sense, female servicemembers may be the first to benefit from any changes, but there's no need to differentiate between potential victims. There's no reason that policies which encourage the reporting of rape and sexual assault without fear of reprisal, that thoroughly investigate such reports, and that severely punish rapists and other sexual abusers, can't be written in such a way that they include rapes of foreign women as well. I have no way of knowing what a victim of military rape would think or feel, and I won't claim to, but in my experience most rape victims see themselves in solidarity with all other rape victims.

I don't understand how the fact that we shouldn't be in Iraq or other occupied countries in any way diminishes the importance of the rapes that we commit there.

[L0oniX]

75. The devaluation of all women is a much larger general problem. Good luck on changing culture.

IMO the root of the problem of women being raped by our troops is the moral character of those who enlist. You can blame the culture of our or their society too but I doubt there is a chance in hell that will be solved. What can be addressed is the moral character of the enlisted and the laws and investigative procedures pertaining to rape within our own military which will set the precedence for what goes on with our troops in other countries. If the troops get away with it here they most certainly will do it over there ...and especially to hose who are being demonized as the military does so well. IMO what happened over there concerning rape is the aftermath of not addressing the problem here within our military.

[antigone382]

79. I was referring to changing military culture, not culture at large.

Though that needs to be altered too. I still don't see how preventing the rape of military women precludes preventing the rape of women in U.S.-occupied countries, or why it is necessary to frame it as only caring for others after we look out for our own. I still don't see any acknowledgement of the interconnectedness of our problems with the rest of the world. It's unrealistic and unjustifiable to say that we owe no assistance to the rest of the world, even the parts we have had a large role in destroying. I still think that the words you have used to express your views have frequently been ill-chosen and offensive. Words have meanings whether you want them to or not. I don't understand why you won't make any concession that maybe all the people who got upset had even a slightly valid concern. But I'm tired of debating this and I need to go to bed.

[L0oniX]

80. "after we look out for our own" Did I say that? I care about solving the problem...

of the rape of our troops in our military before anywhere else. I think I have made it clear that I believe that the solution to the crimes start within our own military and should come first and that will address and reduce the crimes of our troops raping in other countries. I have said how I would handle it and in what priority. Of course one should be concerned with our troops raping women in a foreign prison and the victims incurring death from their own family and community but the solution IMO is to attack the problem at it's source.

"say that we owe no assistance to the rest of the world" Did I say that?

Is your agenda one of trying to make me make a concession? Control issue?

[antigone382]

92. Yes. You did. Multiple times.

I'm done.

[barbtries]

87. excellent response.

i'm reading "confessions of an economic hit man" along with "a people's history of the united states" and you have just touched on so much of what i am learning in your well written, well thought out response.

[FedUpWithIt All]

24. To the front page.

k+r

[Odin2005]

35. We have become no better than the "terrorists".

:cry:

[suffragette]

57. K&R

:cry:

[femrap]

70. And that female

soldier from WVa got all blame for the male on the leash while women and girls were being brutally raped. I had read about the screams from women in the prison....screaming and begging for DEATH.

No one has to tell me how military male gangs behave.

It's about time the Truth comes out so our military can take responsibility for their behavior. It's beyond sickening.

It's the women and children who suffer in war....much worse than the soldiers.

[jgraz]

84. Look forward. Look forward. Look forward. Look forward. Look forward. Look forward.

Number of prosecutions for these atrocities: 0.

[Capitalocracy]

85. What is it good for?

Absolutely nothing.

Say it again.

[spicegal]

91. Oh my God, this makes me ill. What has George Bush and the

right wingers unleashed on our country. To think of Republicans winning in November is sickening.

[Quantess]

93. Sickening!