"If the 'Mosque' Isn't Built, This Is No Longer America", great summary by Michael Moore

[uppityperson]

I appreciate Mr Moore's take on this. I disagree with building any religious structure in the WTC site, am fine it being a memorial park (though feel the money would be better spent), but very much like his take on the whole controversy. As he says "I hate bigotry and I hate liars".

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/if-mosque-isnt-built-no-longer-america

There's been so much that's been said about this manufactured controversy, I really don't want to waste any time on this day of remembrance talking about it. But I hate bigotry and I hate liars, and so in case you missed any of the truth that's been lost in this, let me point out a few facts:

1. I love the Burlington Coat Factory. I've gotten some great winter coats there at a very reasonable price. Muslims have been holding their daily prayers there since 2009. No one ever complained about that. This is not going to be a "mosque," it's going to be a community center. It will have the same prayer room in it that's already there. But to even have to assure people that "it's not going to be mosque" is so offensive, I now wish they would just build a 111-story mosque there. That would be better than the lame and disgusting way the developer has left Ground Zero an empty hole until recently. The remains of over 1,100 people still haven't been found. That site is a sacred graveyard, and to be building another monument to commerce on it is a sacrilege. Why wasn't the entire site turned into a memorial peace park? People died there, and many of their remains are still strewn about, all these years later.

2. Guess who has helped the Muslims organize their plans for this community center? The JEWISH COMMUNITY CENTER of Manhattan! Their rabbi has been advising them since the beginning. It's been a picture-perfect example of the kind of world we all want to live in. Peter Stuyvessant, New York's "founder," tried to expel the first Jews who arrived in Manhattan. Then the Dutch said, no, that's a bit much. So then Stuyvessant said ok, you can stay, but you cannot build a synagogue anywhere in Manhattan. Do your stupid Friday night thing at home. The first Jewish temple was not allowed to be built until 1730. Then there was a revolution, and the founding fathers said this country has to be secular -- no religious nuts or state religions. George Washington (inaugurated around the corner from Ground Zero) wanted to make a statement about this his very first year in office, and wrote this to American Jews: (clip))

Friends, we all have a responsibility NOW to make sure that Muslim community center gets built. Once again, 70% of the country (the same number that initially supported the Iraq War) is on the wrong side and want the "mosque" moved. Enormous pressure has been put on the Imam to stop his project. We have to turn this thing around. Are we going to let the bullies and thugs win another one? Aren't you fed up by now? When would be a good time to take our country back from the haters?

I say right now. Let's each of us make a statement by donating to the building of this community center! It's a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization and you can donate a dollar or ten dollars (or more) right now through a secure pay pal account by clicking here. I will personally match the first $10,000 raised (forward your PayPal receipt to [e-mail] ). If each one of you reading this blog/email donated just a couple of dollars, that would give the center over $6 million, more than what Donald Trump has offered to buy the Imam out. C'mon everyone, let's pitch in and help those who are being debased for simply wanting to do something good. We could all make a huge statement of love on this solemn day.

I lost a co-worker on 9/11. I write this today in his memory. ...

[Desertrose]

1. ICAM..."to be building another monument to commerce on it is a sacrilege"

"The remains of over 1,100 people still haven't been found. That site is a sacred graveyard, and to be building another monument to commerce on it is a sacrilege. Why wasn't the entire site turned into a memorial peace park? People died there, and many of their remains are still strewn about, all these years later."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. More hyperbole from an entertainer which ignores major facts

The deal is far from a lock, even without the RW fundie nonsense. There are lots of legitimate things that could kill it. Moore's position is part of the problem, not part of the solution. If it dies for legitimate reasons, the RW fundies will count coup and he will be helping them.

[pinboy3niner]

3. And if the sponsors cave to pressure, that would be better?

Better to sink or swim on its own than surrender to pressure from the bigoted, the ignorant and the pols who seek to exploit the issue for selfish political gain.

Moore IS right--it's time to take a stand.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. You and he fail to understand that the project may not go forward for legitimate reasons

having nothing to do about caving to pressure. Then those like Moore will be quite guilty of supporting the RW fundies as the claim victory.

His position makes a good sound bite but is in the end dangerous and without rational backing

[uppityperson]

5. Being against bigotry is soooo dangerous. Gotcha. Thanks for participating

What about this..."1. I love the Burlington Coat Factory. I've gotten some great winter coats there at a very reasonable price. Muslims have been holding their daily prayers there since 2009. No one ever complained about that. "?

No rational backing? Huh.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Nothing to do with bigotry...the Cordoba House might not be built at that location for any

number of reasons having nothing to do with the RW fundies. You are aware that they do not even own all of the land at this point?

If it is not Moore will be giving credit to the fundies for a victory they did not win, as will you. You and he will be aiding the bigots if that happens. Is that what you want to be credited with?

[uppityperson]

8. Acknowledging that bigotry exists and influences things is "aiding the bigots"? Wrong

Ignoring bigotry, saying that there is no bigotry, that all that "building a mosque in sacred ground" "Islam is at war with the usa", "all Muslims want to kill us", is rational crap and not bigotry, now THAT I see as "aiding bigotry".

Edited to add that you didn't reply to what I posted... What about this..."1. I love the Burlington Coat Factory. I've gotten some great winter coats there at a very reasonable price. Muslims have been holding their daily prayers there since 2009. No one ever complained about that. "?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. Actually you will be aiding bigots *IF* it is not built there for non-bigoted reasons.

So will Moore and others who take this to a binary view at this time. You will be helping the RW fundies count coup. Your actions, your call.

[uppityperson]

11. I think we are arguing different things. I am talking about speaking out against bigotry.

You seem to be saying that if it is not built for non-bigoted reasons, that this gives bigots the feeling they stopped it. I agree that is bad.

However, I will still speak out against bigotry.

You still do not address this part of Mr Moore's rant that talks about bigotry..."1. I love the Burlington Coat Factory. I've gotten some great winter coats there at a very reasonable price. Muslims have been holding their daily prayers there since 2009. No one ever complained about that. "?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. I strongly support Cordoba House being built, but making it a binary thing so early is dumb of Moore

His rant about bigotry is actually irrelevant to the concern I brought up.

[pinboy3niner]

7. "Sink or swim on its own" shows I DO understand that

Caving means IMMEDIATE surrender, allowing opponents to claim (and essentially handing them) victory. NOT caving means building it. If that fails, oponents may be still be able to claim victory; if it succeeds, not so much.

Ceding now is no better than the worst possible result of going forward (and failing). Only one course offers the possibility of success (I wouldn't call it victory, but opponents might consider it their defeat).

Moving isn't a serious or realistic option, because ANY alternate location also would be problematic. Murfreesboro, TN isn't far enough away from 'Ground Zero' to avoid protests. Not even Temecula, CA is far enough away.

If the choice is to fold or take a stand, that's not really a choice at all. Moore IS right.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. What about if it folds for legitimate business reasons? A very real possibility at this point

They don't own all of the land
No environmental studies
Permit process has not started
Any required remediation not studied
Funding is not in place
.
.
.
Building anything large in NYC these days is a real PITA. Lots of paperwork complete with Catch-22s even for projects without any controversy. The overall success rate is fairly low, just ask anyone in commercial real estate development.

Cordoba House could fold at that location for those reasons or many more, not related in the least to the RW fundie nonsense. To claim that if it does not go forward its only due to RW bigotry etc, is almost childish at this point. More over if that becomes the meme and it does fail for legitimate reasons, Moore and those supporting his myopic view will be supporting the RW fundies when they count coup.

The right answer is to support it, monitor the process, and make noise as needed if the fundies get to clamoring. To make it a binary situation at this point is just plain dumb.

[stray cat]

10. Michael Moore takes a pro-big business stance!

Its not america if we don't let people with lots of money spend the money the way they want too!