Is it possible to oppose the Cordoba Center without being Islamophobic

[el_bryanto]

I should say I firmly believe those who have ginned up this issue are Islamophobic - Hannity, Geller, Limbaugh, and others really do hate Islam. I'm talking more about garden variety opposition.

Bryant

[PBS Poll-435]

1. I tend to think the entire thing is one big con/scam

[H2O Man]

2. Could you provide

an example? Thanks.

[el_bryanto]

4. An example of what? n/t

[H2O Man]

7. Of a person

opposed to the center who is not anti-Islamic?

[el_bryanto]

8. Ah - ok - that's more up to people who vote Definitely then.

I also should probably have clarified legal opposition vs just thinking they should move somewhere else.

Bryant

[Jackpine Radical]

20. Sure. Beck.

He has no agenda other than self-aggrandizement, and bigotry is a handy vehicle for a person who has no conscience and nothing useful to contribute to the species.

[stray cat]

3. Absolutely, but proponents will call you a bigot anyway

[uppityperson]

50. What reason do you have, or is there? Serious question.

[MineralMan]

5. The entire thing is a strawman.

Once built, the center will fade from public interest and become just another faith-based community center. It is the "threat" of it being built that is being exploited. The reality is very boring. That exploitation of the "threat" is Islamophobic, pure and simple.

[walldude]

43. +1 about as accurate a description as I have seen...

A lot of hoo hoo about nothing at all..

[ET Awful]

6. Depends on what the actual reason for opposing it would be. . . . for example

if there was a legitimate environmental concern (is there an endangered species likely to go extinct if the project is complete?) then there might be a non-Islamophobic basis for opposition.

Otherwise. . . I have yet to see ANY basis for opposing the Cordoba Center that is not, at it's heart, Islamophobic.

[NightWatcher]

9. why else would you oppose it, holding out hope Burlington Coat Factory returns?

[BeFree]

10. No. Not possible.

But damn if you didn't try to make the case.

Opposing the Cordoba center is being phobic. Too may phobias to even mention, among them phobic of the US constitution, but hey, you gave it a shot at trying to dismiss one. Better luck next time.

[dkf]

11. The Imam himself said had he known the furor it would cause he would not have located it there

Is he Islamophobic?

[el_bryanto]

13. Opposing it now and deciding not to build it are two seperate issues

The Imam hasn't shown much inclination to move it. Presumably he reasons (correctly) that moving it now would give comfort to the likes of Hannity and Geller and so on.

Bryant

[dkf]

18. The question was if it is possible to oppose the mosque without being Islamophobic

And the answer is that if the Imam himself realizes he should have located it elsewhere then yes it is possible to oppose it because of the chaos it causes and not be islamophobic.

Not all people will come to the conclusion, and maybe the Imam himself may not in the end, that the international considerations are the deciding factor.

The Imam is not thinking of fighting Newt or Whoever on the right, nor in asserting his freedom of religion. He is thinking bigger picture, specifically international relations, and that is where I think it should be.

[BeFree]

16. I'm sorry

But that is just a stupid question. "Is he (the boss) Isalmaphobic?"

If the boss of the Cordoba place was not backed by faux news, he would admit that he knew the shit he was starting.

You do know there is a fox in this henhouse, right?

[dkf]

21. You are saying the Cordoba house stirred this up on purpose for Fox ratings?

I don't know about that one.

[BeFree]

24. Think

If dkf had proposed building an Islamic center there, do you think would anybody object?

There is a fox in this henhouse.

[dkf]

30. I'm more inclined to think it's a CIA thing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9115638

[el_bryanto]

12. When did I try to make the case? nt

[BeFree]

14. You are slick

How else could you post an anti-mosque screed and expect to get away with it on DU?

[el_bryanto]

19. Post the link please

I don't recall posting an anti-mosque screed, and if you check my website I've been pretty firm on this issue.

If you can't post the iink than well, I'd like to say something nasty but I'm trying to be a nicer person.

Bryant

[BeFree]

26. Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9124864&mesg_id=9124864

Basically what it says is: "Can I oppose the mosque without appearing Islamaphobic?".
That's my take.

[el_bryanto]

28. Laughs

That's just sad.

A few links of my own - I'm sorry. It is self aggrandizing to link to my blog, but if you want to know what I think about this you should probably read what I wrote on the issue before declaring me an Islamaphobe.

From this morning --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com/2010/09/ground-zero-mosque-builder-threatens.html (please read past the provocative title, incidentally)
On Imam Rauf --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com/2010/08/you-may-already-be-living-under-shariah.html
Responding to Rush Limbaugh on the Mosque --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com/2010/08/your-weekly-rush-mosques.html

You should maybe take some time to consider before attacking.

Bryant

[BeFree]

32. Selling your website now?

Hint: you can easily copy, then paste, onto DU, your off DU screeds.

I never declared you anything but slick. Do you deny being slick?

[el_bryanto]

33. If you mean slick as in sharp, thank you. But of course you mean slick as in deceitful

Which isn't much of a compliment and in fact an insult. And among the things you presumably think I'm hiding, giving my dishonesty, is my opposition to the Cordoba Center.

But if posting my words here is more acceptable, here you go.

"Rauf represents a secular Islam that champions America as a nation that is compatible with Islam's ideals. Our secular and multi-cultural society is what Allah wants. This is Ruaf's view, and he hasn't exactly made a secret of it.

Opposed to that view are those of radical Muslims like al-Qaeda and others who believe that America and American style Democracy are antithetical to Islam, that we intrinsically threaten Islam.

In the middle are the vast majority of Muslims; if they see Imam Rauf's actions as being successful, than his views will likely become more dominant. On the other hand if America essentially says that Muslims don't belong and aren't really Americans, than radicals like al-Qaeda will seem to be more correct.

One thing Imam Rauf doesn't want to say because he is a man of peace is that of course if he moves the Mosque Conservatives in this country will claim it as a victory and the likes of Giles and Hannity and Pamela Geller will paint it as a victory of good honest Americans over evil anti-American Muslims. He doesn't want to say that this controversy has been ginned up by certain people for political ends. He does finally reference the Anti-Islam attitudes in this country, which has been growing all year.

Because in a sense Giles agrees with Osama bin Ladin. Islam and America aren't compatible; they are natural enemies. I personally would rather stand with Imam Rauf than Doug Giles."

I look forward to more nastiness BeFree

Bryant

[BeFree]

34. Wow

You managed to get all those keywords in, in one fell swoop.

Gotta love the END:

I personally would rather stand with Imam Rauf than Doug Giles.

Whereas I say: I stand with the constitution. It cuts right through the bullshit. For centuries people have used religion to divide us from our birthrights. Same shit today. And you are, imo, playing right along.

Not that it matters, you have no influence.

[el_bryanto]

35. And I am not dissapointed.

But, for those who might be really really stupid, the Constitution doesn't say a word about the wisdom of building the Cordoba Center in it's current location. It speaks to the legality of building it there. It is of course possible to support someone's right to do something while also thinking it would be better for them not to do it. So your standing with the constitution? Meaningless in this debate.

The debate isn't over whether or not Imam Ruaf has the right to build the Cordoba Center on its current location; most people on both sides of the issue agree that he has. What this issue is about is whether or not he should cave and move the Mosque somewhere else or stick to his grounds.

What specifically have I done to make you despise me so very much?

Bryant

[BeFree]

37. What debate?

You write: It is of course possible to support someone's right to do something while also thinking it would be better for them not to do it. So your standing with the constitution? Meaningless in this debate."

The constitution is everything. It is not my fucking business to tell someone where they can practice their religion.

Let me repeat that:
It is not my fucking business to tell someone where they can practice their religion.

Nor is it yours, or fox news, or anyone else. The constitution tells everyone just that.

[el_bryanto]

38. Hiding behind irrelevencies

You can say Constitution as many times as you like, it won't change the fact that it doesn't speak to this issue currently.

Do you believe in freedom of speech? Presumably you do.

Do you believe that challenging someone's speech is an infringement on that speech? Obviously not; you've repeatedly attacked my speech as being decietful, self aggrandizing, and Islamaphobic. Presumably you think you can do so without undermining my freedom of speech (and you'd be right to think so).

There's no difference here; as hateful as Hannity et al are being in regards to the Cordoba Center, freedom of speech gives them the right to do so. And if they oppose it, than I feel a necessity to speak in favor of it, using my freedom of speech. Your strategy would seem to handcuff us to keeping silent about the Cordoba center, as it's not our business to tell someone where they can practice their religion.

Incidentally your argument would be stronger if changed "can" to "should," as mentioned above legal challanges to the Cordoba Center have largely failed. This is more an issue of Hanity et al telling them not that they can't build there, but that they shouldn't. Which isn't the same thing.

By the way, still think I'm kind of an Islamaphobe?

Bryant

[BeFree]

39. No

I think you are slick, and poking your nose somewhere where you have no business.

And you downplay the constitution. All, in one thread..!!!

[el_bryanto]

41. I don't downplay the constitution I merely point out it doesn't apply

There are literally thousands of areas that the Constitution doesn't apply to. For example if I went into see the doctor, I would be very concerned if instead of going to his medical book he pulled out a copy of the Constitution.

The legal questions have, for the moment, been settled.

And by poking my nose somewhere I have no busines, you mean posting here at DU? Or expressing support for Imam Rauf? ANd if it's the later, doesn't your philosophy require me to keep silent while Imam Rauf an those who suppor the Cordoba center are attacked?

Bryant

[BeFree]

46. You win

You can go ahead and keep ginning this up.

Now, go read what you wrote about ginning in your OP.

You have managed to gin this up, downplay the constitution, sell your website, post anti-Islamic propaganda and play the victim all in one thread.

You are slick.

[el_bryanto]

47. You are a piece of work. You make me want to use language that will get this post deleted

Anti Islamic Propoganda?

Whatever, you clearly are not the sort of person who can admit they are wrong.

Bryant

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. No. And if I need to explain why, then explaining is useless. -nt

[TheKentuckian]

17. Probably not. I figure there might be a case but I haven't heard it yet

Not once have I heard a case that did not at least depend on conflating Islam with acts of terror.

There are some that are attacking just because it is religious in nature and see a weak spot to advance their agenda but I figure they are being bigots too, just not as specifically.

[dkf]

27. The Imam in South Florida is against building it there.

Is he Islamophobic?

Imam Rauf says if he had known this would happen he would not have put it there. Is he Islamophobic?

I've heard diplomats who have said they would not have located it there. Are they islamophobic?

[uppityperson]

53. No, but they are fearful of those who are Islamophobic.

[TheKentuckian]

68. Fear of Islamaphobic backlash used to usurp natural rights

is nothing to be proud of.

Rolling over for a bully doesn't make you one but it does mean that you encourage the behavior.

Its still all effectively rooted in the concept that Islam and terrorist are one, why else would there be reprisals for a center at this location?

I'm seeing no points other than those of bigots and the cowering reaction to it.

I think the Imams are essentially chumming the water for the sharks with their commentary and usually I'd say its on them but their enemies are quite familiar to me and I'm sure as I need to be that they'll keep coming for more and turn their newly increased power on others until they are driven back or they spread their cancer throughout society.

The why in this issue is depended on bigotry to be operative, otherwise their is absolutely no discussion.

[cleanhippie]

22. Only if you have a valid reason to oppose it.

And I have yet to hear a valid reason.

[nevergiveup]

23. After some thinking I voted "probably not"

and think it is a fair and thought provoking question. I also think it is silly that there are those here who would hint el_bryanto is likely Islamophobic because he posted this poll.

[yella_dawg]

25. Probably Not.

I've seen a number of buildings I'd oppose on architectural grounds. Ugly is ugly no matter a building's purpose. Having never seen any building plans, I can't say in this case, though.

[mmonk]

29. Only if you believe every religion should no longer be protected

by the 1st amendment and subject to the opinion and desires of others.

[Enrique]

31. I doubt those people really care about Islam

their Islamophobia strikes me as being just as phony as everything else about them.

[Hosnon]

36. I'm going to go with "Possibly" if only because I've seen Muslims on t.v.

who are opposed to the building.

Who am I to call a Muslim an Islamophobe?

[uppityperson]

51. If they are fearful because of threats from Islamophobes, then that falls under that category

rather like saying a black man and racism because he avoided certain areas/actions in Mississippi in the 50's.

[rucky]

40. They could also be Islamophobic-phobic

Opposing the Cordoba Center out of fear of the threats from Islamophobes.

Not saying I endorse that. Just answering your question.

[el_bryanto]

42. That is entirely possible n/t

[harun]

44. Other: If you don't live in NY, I don't see why anyone would concern

themselves with the matter.

[el_bryanto]

45. That's sort of an ok answer back at the beginning

We now have had months of Conservative pundits and the like making it a national issue, so no longer really applies.

Bryant

[harun]

54. I wouldn't know because I don't watch them or listen to them.

I know all the coverage it has gotten though. Just silly because the entire premise is such BS, that somehow what people in AZ think about this issue has any relevance to what NY City decides to do.

[blondeatlast]

55. But not concerning oneself is not the same as opposition. nt

[krabigirl]

48. Sure. People have the right to oppose it, but not to have the government force it to shut down.

Doesn't mean you are islamophobic. As for me, of course they have the right to build it, and they should.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

49. Either Islamophobic or too slow/shallow to understand the issue

There is no third option.

[uppityperson]

52. Only other reason I can see is fear of Islamophobes.

For garden variety opposition, they have either bought into the Islamophobia or are afraid of others who are.

[Karenina]

56. NO. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

The manure from which the "sensitivity" issue springs is COLLECTIVE BLAME. Racism and denial thereof will be the death of America. :cry:

[Lucian]

57. Well of course it is.

I hate all religion, so I could oppose it based on my hatred for churches. It doesn't matter what denomination.

But the building is going to be good, overall, for the people in the area, so I support it.

[uppityperson]

65. You oppose a community center because it is built by church people but support it

because it is a community center?

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. the entire controversy is completely manufactured and fake

I do believe that just as there were some people who opposed civil rights marches in the 60's not because they were racist but because they were worried that it would only provoke racist and make matters worse - there are no doubt some people who recognize the good intentions of the Sufi group building a community center open to people of all faiths in the home of the old Burlington Coat factory in a neighborhood filled with porno shops, 7-11s, betting parlors and strip clubs might provoke bigots, racist and others who have been swept up in media campaign of disingenuous outrage.

[Bragi]

59. It's tactics versus principles

I think someone could oppose it for tactical reasons ("Too much controversy, divisive, etc.) without being an islamophobe.

If you oppose it in principle -- hallowed ground, etc. -- then you probably are an Islamophobe.

[Karenina]

61. There's too much controversy surrounding me

sitting next to a white child in school. After all, her stepmother's cousin's friend's wild child got in a fight and was stabbed by a N*****. They ALL carry knives ya know. Never mind golden boy was relieved of his illegal handgun in the process.
:crazy:

That "white privilege knapsack" contains a reference to not being considered collectively guilty if one of your number does something asinine.

The "tactical reasons" you cite involve (self-censored reference to unwanted oral sex) of a a white supremacist agenda.

Think about it.

[Bragi]

62. I'd like to think about it

But I can't think about it because I don't understand what you're talking about.

I'm not trying to play you. Maybe there's code I don't know in your observation.

What's your point?

[uppityperson]

66. Point is opposing it because it will provoke the racists is wrong.

Rather like if you are a dark skinned kid, don't sit by the light skinned kid because a distant friend of a relative of the light skinned kid got in a fight and hurt by a dark skinned person and the light skinned kid's family will raise hell about sitting by a scary violent dark skinned kid.

The self censored part involves words that would have gotten the post deleted.

More simply put, opposing something because it will provoke racism, while understandable, is still wrong.

[Withywindle]

60. I don't think so.

I guess it could be profound ignorance, but there is a line where deliberate, willful ignorance is in itself a form of hate.


Do the opponents not care that there already IS a mosque in Lower Manhattan? That's been there for years? One that's more conservative? That there was a Muslim prayer room IN the World Trade Center? (17th floor, Tower 2 - there was just an article about it in the NYT) That nobody objected to, even after the '93 bombing? That this proposal ISN'T a mosque, it's a community center open to everyone, like a Y? That the imam in charge of it is a Sufi, and they're among the few people MORE hated by Bin Laden/Taliban/Wahhabist types than Westerners, because they're seen as Muslim heretics, which is worse than an infidel in their eyes?

If you know all these things (and if you didn't before, you do now) and still get an "ick factor" about it, then yeah, it's Islamophobia. Get over it. Being called a "-phobe" is NOT worse than being a victim of that prejudice.

[McCamy Taylor]

63. Only if you are an atheist who hates all religions equally.

[uppityperson]

67. and hate all community centers equally. eom

[Codeine]

64. As a person who hates all religions equally and with great and fiery vigor,

I think it's jusssst possible -- just barely. That said, I haven't read or seen anyone oppose it who HASN'T been an Islamophobe, and even I don't oppose the damned thing and I think all religion is completely poisonous, destructive, idiotic bunk.

There is, however, no god-damned way on Earth one could oppose it and not be a Constitution-phobe. Hating the Bill of Rights is a much worse crime than getting the heebie-jeebies over one of those goofy-ass Abrahamic religions building a house of worship rather than something useful.