Some pornography is exploitive of women. Some is not.

[mudesi]

Very much like the abortion debate, I feel like the pornography debate has two extreme factions on both sides that are equally wrong.

Faction 1: Any and all pornography is perfectly fine and not exploitive or demeaning to women at all, no matter what.

Faction 2: Any and all pornography is pure filth and completely demeaning and exploitive to women, no matter what.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

First of all, men are visual creatures. This is a biological fact. Men are sexually stimulated by images of beautiful women and sexual acts. There is nothing wrong, immoral, perverted, "dirty", or evil about that, because it is an innate biological reality. Pornography has existed since the beginning of time for that very reason. Pornography itself is exploitive of men. The production of pornography can be, and in some cases is, exploitive of women.

Where a market exists, a capitalist will capitalize on it. If pornography were to be banned in all forms, (such as it is in many theocratic countries such as Saudi Arabia), men will still have the same sexual drive, and it will never, ever, go away. Pornography is therefore nothing more than the product of a free market system. One can be against that, of course, but it has nothing to do with evil perverted misogynists hellbent on exploiting women. It's about the money, period.

On the other hand, the methods to which these business men and women (Yes, there are women pornographers) manufacture and sell their product can be absolutely unethical. As we all know, big business is not exactly sympathetic to the social costs of producing it's product. Oil companies don't care about pollution, insurance companies have no problem ripping off Katrina victims, cigarette companies know and don't care how addictive and harmful their product is, etc.

The same thing applies to pornography. There are legitimate companies producing pornography right now that are completely ethical. They have health regulations, mandatory condom use policies, professional environments, etc. The women performers are 100% aware of what they do, they have no qualms about it, they enjoy it, they fully consent to it, and they decided to be in the business by their own free will. They are hardly being exploited. In fact, I would argue that to call these women exploited is insulting and misogynistic in itself. It implies that old fashioned maxim that women shouldn't enjoy sex and that those who do are "sluts" or "whores".

There are others, however, who prey on young women who are not fully aware of what they're getting in to, or have no other options. Many of them were abused as children. Many live in poverty and have no other means of making money. They are underpaid. Many are addicted to drugs, are in abusive relationships, have emotional issues, etc etc etc....These women are not really fully consenting and are used and abused by pornographers who don't care about anything other than the maximum profit.

If anything, I think pornography ought to be a regulated industry much like other "vice" industries. I'm not aware of whether or not there already exist regulations other than the age limit laws. But I do know that Nevada, for example, has allowed counties to legalize and regulate prostitution in order to protect sex workers. Maybe the same should be done with pornography. I don't really have the answers to the problems of exploitation in the sex industry, I just want to make the point that this issue, like so many others, is not an either/or thing.

[Dave Reynolds]

1. Good point, nicely stated.

But it may soon be drowned out by the shrieking of the either/or anti-porn kids. You are a brave soul indeed.

:popcorn:

[donheld]

2. What if there's no women involved.

:shrug: No women exploited there. :D

[eridani]

5. Yes, why the heterosexual assumption?

Gay men are as into visuals as straight men, while women of all orientations tend to prefer writing their own visual slash fanfic.

[melody]

7. Hey, I know I do :)

Slash fanfic, I mean.

[Withywindle]

53. Me too. :D

But I also like visual porn, just usually not quite as much. And male/male is my favorite there too. I'm just really, really into men, and men together can't be beat!

There seems to be increasing awareness that there is a female audience for this. Do I feel it's exploitative of men? I wonder about that sometimes. But then, I also feel a lot of what your more DIY subcultural porn is really about is bringing together willing exhibitionists and willing voyeurs. (And even a text-porn writer is a bit of an exhibitionist; she's putting her fantasies out there in great detail in public.) As long as everyone involved is a consenting adult (or a fictional character) I don't see how it's degrading or demeaning at all.

[Clark2008]

20. Actually, women can be visual, too. It's just that most porn

caters to men and what MEN want to see.

Very little caters to what turns a WOMAN on.

[Kurovski]

40. There are two newer genres in porn,

CFNM (clothed female, nude male) that focuses on the male as an object, often the women engage in mild to strident humiliation. the women do not engage in sex, but manipulate the male(s).

There is at least one site I've seen that is heterosexual, but designed for the gay male, and focuses on the male in the way that traditional porn focuses on the female. I imagine some women would find that more to their taste, if so inclined to porn.

Some sites run by woman basically "edit". Just presenting already produced images that focus more on story-telling, touching, kissing, etc,. More of the love-making aspect is presented.

You're right, very little of it does cater to a woman, but the markets are wide open, and they exist.

I could go on, but I'm afraid I'll be branded a pervert, and I do have my reputation to uphold.

[The Straight Story]

3. I dunno, I thought we were all about choice in liberal land?

Or do we believe that only some people can make choices about their body and how they use it?

[dave_p]

17. Well if they're minors, we already do

Consent's surely meaningless without criteria of who can legally give consent.

But the circumstances in which consent may be indicated also count. Liberals surely demand certain basic standards regardless of the explicit contract of an individual labor contract.

There's nothing wrong with taking responsibility for others, where fundamental common interests are at stake. Liberalism isn't libertarianism.

[and-justice-for-all]

4. If a Women, or anyone else, does something of this nature

on a volunteering bases, its NOT exploitation. They obviously know what they are doing and making the decision to part take in those endeavors. I feel the same way on this as I do about abortion, She is making the choice as it is her right to do so.

I have no issues with pornography...its quit the stimulant really...Meow.

[Vexatious Ape]

8. Couldn't agree more...

[and-justice-for-all]

34. It seems that some people sirmise that....

...women do not enjoy sex as much as men do. Thats a misconception, both men and women are sexual by nature, its part of the breeding process we have in our genetic make-up. If we did not have this desire to mate as we do, do you think we would be sitting here now?

Some women like sex so much, not suprising that the porno industry is as vibrant as it is, to have more sex. Sex is not taboo and it should not be treated as such either, a healthy sex life is pivital to a health life over all..Not saying that anyone should become a whore tomorrow, but a healty sex life with an understanding partner should be seeked out.

Women love orgasims as much as men do, so do not forget that. Women love flowers, but orgasims are pricelss.

[iverglas]

35. good fucking god

You actually thought this was worth saying in public.

Not saying that anyone should become a whore tomorrow

Well ta for that, anyway.

[and-justice-for-all]

37. I will say what I want in public..nt

[Withywindle]

54. I think your phrasing needs work but you make a good point.

True amateur porn sites exist. Exhibitionism is a VERY common fetish, as is voyeurism, and there are tons of people of all genders and orientations--yes, including women--who get off on putting sex pix of themselves on the internet. For no money at all, just because they enjoy it. It kind of undercuts the notion that no woman could *possibly* do porn because she enjoys it, she *must* have been abused or be in desperate financial straits. Simply not true, and insulting.

I'm too introverted to do a good job of it, myself, but I have lots of respect for those who do.

[Matsubara]

6. Reducing men to a phallus that spews on cue...

...could be considered exploitative of men as well.

Just saying.


I'm not really anti-porn per se, but there is some awful stuff out there, particularly the "gang bang" genre.

Remember when blue movies used to actually aspire to be seen as art? From about 1969 to 1983 - it's all been downhill since then.

[FreeState]

9. How is that "awful stuff"

How is a gang bang movie any more "awful" than a reality show or any other adult production? They are presumably done by people consenting to the acts being filmed. While it may not be your cup of tea, who is to say its not others?

If in-fact it is just not something that you particularly are attracted to is it just as awful as anything else you are not attracted to? Isn't all art deemed art because of how individuals view it? I guess that begs the question what is art and is art only art when all parties see it that way?

(Im making assumptions from your post because you did not say why you view it as awful - If I have made any assumptions that are incorrect please excuse me in advance :) )

[Matsubara]

13. Not that I'm calling for legislation or anything but...

A woman with the fluids of 30 men on her face, or drinking such from a cup, is kinda degrading, IMO, and that's the borderline stuff.

When you get into scat, golden showers, etc. it crosses the line from porn to just disgusting crap.

(and yeah, that's just my opinion - I am a guy, by the way.)

You use the word "art"-

Generally "erotica" is considered to fall under the category of "art", as it is sexually arousing material with primarily artistic motives, whereas porn is material with the primary aim being to arouse.




And yeah, the cup-o-spunk stuff is no worse than what people eat on "Fear Factor", but to me, Fear Factor is pretty awful, too.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. Do like I do. I stay miles away from both "Fear Factor" and this kind of porn

for one and only one reason: "ewwww."

But "ewwww" is hardly a justification for censorship.

[Matsubara]

33. Didn't say it was.

If the depravities being depicted on screen are legal, then I can't see why they should be censored, but it is sad that there's a market for some of the more extreme stuff.

But I have read that sexual assault is less common in countries with easy access to porn than in countries where it's banned.

So I guess that's a good thing...

[lildreamer316]

10. Sigh. We've been down this road before here.

Husband used to be in the industry, and I am an adult entertainer. (Good luck with this..heh..lots of anti-porn on the board.. but some nice supporters too.)

Yes, it is regulated in some ways....all participants must be 18 and the production company must have proof (signed and ONSITE) of such. I know you pointed that out.

The top industry producers for both gay and straight porn also REQUIRE (in-house rules) HIV testing (and other diseases also) every six months. I believe it is also written into some of the insurance policies. If you want to make the big money and work for one of these companies you had better have your medical ducks in a row. It's not as easy as anyone thinks.

Everything you said also applies to the top producers in the gay porn industry, mostly the male side is what I am referring to here.

[Hawaii Hiker]

18. Every six months?

I know several current ladies in the industry & I think they're going to AIM every 2 weeks, not every six months....I go to AIM myself, & ALWAYS see performers there when I'm there....

At least the people who are anti-porn seem to be open minded enough to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue...Some will complain that porn is this evil thing, & that it "ruins marriages", which is a total bull-shit agrument...If a porn star ruined your marriage, then you married the wrong f-ing person in the first place...The funny thing is alcohol causes WAY more illneeses, injuries, & deaths every year than porn could cause in 1,000 lifetimes, yet no one ever complains about the booze industry, odd isn't it???...Porn is an easy scapegoat...

[Bucky]

11. I am strongly and vehemently anti-pornography

So I don't buy it.

And leave alone people who do buy it.
.

[qdemn7]

14. Hmmm..

That must mean you leave alone a significant part of the populace. What do you go, go around asking everyone you know if they buy porn? :rofl:

[Bucky]

19. It's called minding my own business

It helps if you read what you're responding to before you post.
.

[Vidar]

12. Very well-stated. Recommended.

[Jamastiene]

15. You are saying the same thing I often say about this issue.

As long as they are regulated and do not spread any STD's and as long as there are only consenting adults in a professional environment, no one should really complain. What's the problem with that? :shrug:

[dave_p]

16. I'm ambivalent.

I've nothing against people stripping or performing explicitly consensual sexual acts for others' entertainment. I wish them good health and moderate prosperity, as I do everyone else.

I've a big problem though with rape or cruel or violent acts being available as sexual entertainment. Just when the argument about porn promoting sexual violence seems to have been relegated (perhaps prematurely) to a non-issue, some elements of the industry are doing just that.

I guess that means I'm for close regulation, with society determining what should and shouldn't be portrayed, and the health & participant consent criteria that should be demanded.

Porn's legal but "out of sight, out of mind" character's given society a free pass for too long, at the cost of some gross excess on the part of some sections of the business.

If people want porn (I think they do), it's time we took some responsibility for it and for those involved not necessarily at the "classy" end of the business.

[SarahB]

21. I don't have a problem with what you are saying, BUT....

It is from a heterosexual male-centric perspective which may be the biggest problem with the industry itself (although they are no doubt the biggest consumers probably). Gay and bi men like porn as do strait women, gay, and bi women. Perhaps the biggest problem with most of mainstream porn is only focusing on the pleasure of the visuals for one audience.

[Hunter_1253]

22. If you believe in capitalism...

then you understand why pornography is targeted to heterosexual males. It's the biggest paying market share. That's not to say there aren't other markets. It's just the base of your product pyramid and earns you the biggest bang for your buck, literally.

[iverglas]

23. some things are worth arguing about, some things are not

And when a "discussion" starts out:

Very much like the abortion debate, I feel like the pornography debate has two extreme factions on both sides that are equally wrong.

Faction 1: Any and all pornography is perfectly fine and not exploitive or demeaning to women at all, no matter what.

Faction 2: Any and all pornography is pure filth and completely demeaning and exploitive to women, no matter what.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.


... and then goes on to lecture me with irrelevant biology, well.


one thinks: some people are worth talking about it with, some people are not.

Sorry. That's a set up. Smacking straw people around doesn't amuse me much. And being called "wrong" from the outset (on women's reproductive rights, just for starters), well, that doesn't strike me as a "discussion" I wanna be part of.

And if you actually think Nevada legalized prostitution "to protect sex workers", well HA. I guess some jurisdictions have legalized casino gambling to protect gamblers. HA HA. Funny how some people will see the evil hand of the corporation just about anywhere, and yet not when it's staring them in the face and it's their pet ox up for goring.

A friend of women posted something in a thread last night that anyone looking at this thread might want to read before musing on the topic:

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2007/04/28/reader-actually-asks-spinster-aunts-opinion

Probably about all that needs to be said.

[mudesi]

24. I disagree with much of that link

First: The sex worker in Nevada issue.

You can take the cynical view that legalizing prostitution has nothing to do with protecting sex workers. I believe you have a legitimate point there. I'll argue that a legalized form of prostitution is overall much safer for the prostitutes than the illegal form, so whatever the intentions of such laws, the end result is that the prostitutes are better off with the laws in place. A law requiring the mandatory use of condoms, for example, is much better than no law at all.

But I don't agree with much of the link's arguments. It's based almost entirely on the "women shouldn't enjoy sex" line. There are women who freely participate, produce, and profit off of pornography. The suggestion that a sex act in itself is oppressive or that it has "everything to do with a paradigm of dominance" is absurd. That's basically saying that a woman is incapable of having sex without being dominated, which is patently false. The link also suggests that there is something wrong with anything "BDSM-y", as if women are not capable of consenting to such an act.

I don't agree with the idea that women are incapable of fully consenting to any kind of sex act, or any kind of participation in pornographic material. Like I said in the OP, there are many cases where exploitation does happen, and I don't have the answers to that, but you can't conclude that all pornography exploits women. It's just not true. Maybe we should ask the adult entertainer in this very thread what she thinks.

[iverglas]

27. like I said ...

And it's always even more fun when the opposing viewpoint is presented and gets misrepresented back at ya. But then, par for the course.

It's based almost entirely on the "women shouldn't enjoy sex" line. There are women who freely participate, produce, and profit off of pornography.

Hey, apart from the total misrepresentation of what that author said: non sequitur much?

The suggestion that a sex act in itself is oppressive or that it has "everything to do with a paradigm of dominance" is absurd.

Ditto ditto etc. Gosh, one would think you'd read something completely different from those few paragraphs, wouldn't one?

I don't agree with the idea that women are incapable of fully consenting to any kind of sex act

Well then hey, you should find someone who espouses that idea and go argue with them!

Have a picnic.

[mudesi]

28. We've had this argument before, iverglas

It seems like you have a mental block of sorts and only take in what you want to when you read something. Of course, you're accusing me of the same, so I guess we're at a stalemate here. Then again, it's human nature for people with opinions to interpret the things they read differently. Those sentiments are what I interpreted when I read that blog post. Your interpretation may be different, but that's what opinions are, after all.

[iverglas]

29. hahahaha

It seems like you have a mental block of sorts and only take in what you want to when you read something.

At least I don't read shit that isn't even there!

Those sentiments are what I interpreted when I read that blog post.

Well, it's short, maybe you can get someone to explain it to you.

You might start from the fact that it is not discussing sex, it is discussing women's participation in pornography. But that wouldn't serve the agenda ...

Your interpretation may be different, but that's what opinions are, after all.

No, really. A representation of something as having said something it did not say is not an "opinion". It's something quite different.

Kinda like sex and pornography.

[grizmaster]

25. anything that involves only consenting adults is fine

[LostinVA]

30. I agree with you, although I hope you like popcorn!!!

:popcorn.

[LostinVA]

31. I agree with you, although I hope you like popcorn!!!

:popcorn.

[Kurovski]

50. Did you say

copporn?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. I Challenge The Whole 'Don't Know What They're Getting Into' Concept.

Seems to me they'd know exactly what they were getting into and have made conscious choices, even if due to desperation, to partake in the industry. They are independent adults capable of making their own decisions even if those decisions are looked upon by others as non-optimal or distasteful. But I don't see how one can claim they 'don't know what they're getting themselves into'. If they truly didn't know what porn was, and were deceived somehow to perform, then that's rape, no? Since there aren't a gazillion porn industry rape trials underway at this time then I'd have to conclude that they do in fact know exactly what they're getting themselves into.

And to those people you consider to have made the choice out of sheer desperation, don't you think they are thankful to at least the slightest degree that at least there was some opportunity for them; even if a bottom of the barrel one, as opposed to being desperate and having no way out?

I dunno. If an adult chooses to go into the porn industry under their own will then that's their choice. Not sure anyone can truly classify them as victims somehow.

[treestar]

36. But women are not

For straight men, that's pretty tough.

I mean, they may turn you on, but then also intimidate and disgust the very women that are real.

Frankly I think it shows men are not as interested in sex as they really claim. Otherwise, why are they so picky about womens' looks, and why aren't real women a turn on?

Something else in going on here. Not sure what it is, but something else is going on.

[Kurovski]

41. There are many, many sites representing average people.

Many people have no interest in the stylized, plastic versions of sexual representation.

It always strikes me as odd that women worry so much about having a "big butt", because for most men it seems to me that this is an actual preference, considered beautiful. I think it's the fashion industry that scrambled biology on that count. :-)

[edwardsdefender]

45. Because men are much more visual. A woman in the weight room on that "thigh machine"

if you know which one I'm talking about, does a lot more for a man than a romance novel.

[leftofthedial]

38. pornography is a conspiracy

of the hand lotion and baby oil manufacturers . . .

[Kurovski]

42. *

:D Don't forget Kleenex.

[BlooInBloo]

39. Let's all take a brief comedic intermission: Oldie but a goodie...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7997646050642417046&q=world+of+warcraft+internet+porn&hl=en

:rofl: I still giggle at that.

[Kurovski]

43. "Me up all night hugging me horn"

:rofl: "Sorry Kate!"

[gravity]

47. That's so true

:rofl:

[edwardsdefender]

44. Who gets paid more in porn? The men or the women? It's probably one of the few

industries where the women get most of the pay and prestige. Now, in a round about way, that is cultural exploitation, when it takes sex for a woman to be paid more than a man.

With this new study that just came out saying that oral sex may increase the risk of throat cancer, I think they should study women who do porn. If they don't have higher rates of throat cancer, then the study is questionable.

[Kurovski]

49. There was an HBO special

that told of how the bigger money for men is in gay porn.

There are men who go "gay for pay", as it's called.

[FreeState]

51. HBO got it wrong though

The average male in gay porn gets $500 a scene (gay for pay or not). If you are one of say 50 gay porn stars you can get $2K for a movie where you are in more than one scene (i.e. an exclusive star).

[Kurovski]

52. Is the money still bigger than in straight porn?

That was the point I was trying to make. I wasn't completely clear.

Women make the most, gay men second, straight men in straight porn are third when it comes to pay levels.

[roseBudd]

46. I would prefer that all porno or strip club businesses have female owners...

Men don't have the natural resources, really attractive body parts that are so visually appealing they are worth lots of profit. since men were born without the natural resources they should not enjoy the profits

Think of it as woman come from a land of oil, men come from a land of dirt. The land with oil is rich because of their resources, the land with none is poor

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. Silliest. Premise. Ever.