Should I apply to PhD programs (humanities)?

[RadicalTexan]

I currently work as a departmental admin staffer in a humanities department at a major R1 university, and it's been really interesting seeing more of the behind-the-scenes work in a department, everything from the politics (sometimes nasty, but not as bad as what I've seen in the corporate world, nevermind in state government) to the budget issues to teaching challenges.

I read Thomas H. Benton; I've read the Gregory Semenza book cover to cover multiple times; I know how dire it is out there. But I also see the new PhDs graduating from the department I work in getting tenure track jobs, fellowships, and other sweet deals that I would see as a huge improvement over secretarial work.

And I still can't shake the desire to get a PhD myself. I know it's a lot of hard work for low pay, getting a PhD, but being able to focus on scholarship and teach rather than sit at a desk 8-5 all day, every day, until death, is still rather appealing. I know I can do well on the GRE, with some prep time (I need to refresh myself on criticism and philosophy type stuff). I am 31, and already have an MA from a highly ranked (non-Oxbridge) British university. I can get some nice recs from my current chair (who is famous in her humanities field) and my MA supervisor. I wrote a 20,000 word thesis for my MA. I can write a great statement.

I would be happy teaching at a community college, although my ideal career would be at a medium-to-large state university, serving students like myself: first-in-their-family college students who come from impoverished or working class backgrounds, who still believe in public higher education (and, believe me, I know that time is probably running out on that in the current climate of corporate-style privatization and downsizing, and that we will all end up in the mess the UC system is currently in). I just figure I would rather do what I originally wanted to do (I wanted to be a professor from my first research paper, in high school AP English) than keep spinning my wheels as an admin monkey.

I wouldn't do a PhD unless I got full, or very close to full, funding in a top tier or perhaps second tier program. I already have considerable student loan debt (all federally subsidized, consolidated, and at 4% interest, thank god), which I will be paying off until I am at least 54. The only downsides for me are these: lack of certainty that I wouldn't burn out (I don't think anyone can be certain they won't burn out after 5, 6, 7 years of intense study and grad school dues-paying, though); the potentiality of getting a PhD and not being able to find any manner of academic work and having to teach in high school (I would rather work in higher ed admin!); the certainty of having to move across the country for grad school (maybe not so bad, could be an amazing shake-up for me and my partner, who is willing to "follow" me if I want to pursue this) and for a coveted tenure track job. I love where I live now, and my lifestyle (except for the 40 hours per week spent at a desk as a monkey, with little time left for my precious reading, research, and writing), and don't really want to move to, say, Iowa (no offense to Iowans).

Even thinking about prepping for the GRE, refreshing my critical skills, and getting into academia mode would be futile, ...right?

Please, no replies from anyone under the age of 25 or those whose parents are paying their way. I want realism here. But, also, encouragement, if it's merited.

Thanks to anyone who bothered to read all that and is able to provide any insight here.

[WhiteTara]

1. In the words of Joseph Campbell

Follow your bliss, money will come.

No one can make this decision for your. Sounds as though from your post, you want to get your PhD.

[mike_c]

2. I got my doctorate at 39, sixteen years ago...

...and I'm an academic scientist, with tenure. I cannot imagine being as happy doing anything else. The money is decent, but not great, job satisfaction is high, burnout is a real danger. It's not perfect, by any means. Still, I'd do it all again if I had the chance-- grad school itself was one of my best life experiences-- and as I said, it's hard for me to imagine being happy in any other profession.

You only live once.

[RadicalTexan]

5. Wow, thanks for responding mike_c

That's really heartening.

I mean, I am sure the job market is much worse now, but, still. I like that academia is a field in which you can go on the market for "entry-level" jobs at age 39. That's awesome.

What you say about hard to feel happy in any other profession resonates with me, too, though, of course I can't really know if I would be happy until I try it. I suspect I will never be happy as a wage slave, but having to report to a fluorescent-lit office forty hours per week and ask to go the bathroom isn't really cutting it for me.

[niceypoo]

44. One of my professors in college got his PHD at 53

He said he always wanted to get a PHD in physics since he was in high school. He finally went back to school at 41. He now teaches at a university after spending the first half of his life as a plumber, baker and restaurant owner.

Myself I went and got a bachelors in my late 40s and am starting to mull getting a masters. By all means go for it, education at every age/level opens doors.

[babylonsister]

3. "I still can't shake the desire to get a PhD myself."

You know you should; that's what you want, and you can make it happen.

Good luck!

[Pholus]

4. If you have the passion, then GO FOR IT.

Advanced education isn't about the job, it's about the subject! What about the humanities get you wanting to spend hours and hours and hours of time thinking about it, looking for a creative angle missed by others? The teaching, sadly, comes later even though that's the best part of the job.

If you love your subject though, how could you NOT work for it.

Can you do this through your department slowly? Can you pay for it (or even a large portion of the coursework) through tuition subsidies in your current job?

You do have to remember, especially in the humanities, that system can chew you up and spit you out. It takes several years, there are a lot of other people trying, and the rejections can be callous. I'm actually glad to be working the sciences, because its a bit more obvious when you're being slammed for reasons other than your academics.

My PhD. English friends spend a lot of time considering backup plans -- working for nonprofits, think tanks and the like. Make sure you always have a backup plan...

[Drops_not_Dope]

6. here's my take

if you have to ask anonymous people on DU, don't bother with any PHD program.

[RadicalTexan]

8. I'm looking for input from people who can provide humanities-specific info

...specifically regarding my age and the currently (and probably permanently) difficult job market for PhDs. This isn't really about my desire to be an academic. It's more about whether my desire is misplaced considering the realities.

So, if you don't have anything to contribute, you... don't really have anything to contribute.

[Hippo_Tron]

7. I'm under 25, but I'm going to respond because I'm seriously considering a PhD as well

One thing I would consider is whether or not you need a PhD to do what you want to do. I know people who teach at community colleges and non-flagship state schools who just have an MA. Obviously they aren't tenure track, but it still seems like a good gig from what they tell me. Granted the people I know are in social sciences and from what I understand the humanities job market is even worse than social sciences so it's possible a PhD is a must for even community college positions. Still, something you might want to consider. Perhaps you could even pursue the PhD part time while teaching.

If your dream is a tenure track job then obviously you need to have a PhD and you need to move to wherever the best program you can get into is located and then should you get a tenure track job, you're going to have to move to wherever you get one. If that's your dream and you are willing to take the financial and burnout risks then go for it.

But if the tenure track job is less important to you than just being able to teach and do research in your field then you might consider other options to going the traditional PhD route.

[aikoaiko]

9. You, my friend, are cursed.

You really have only two choices.

Get a Business or Finance degree, make some serious money, and then pursue the arts and humanities in your leisure time.

Get a PhD, get a tenure track job at a university, get a starting salary that feels great compared to your graduate stipend, but have your merit raises just barely keep up with inflation. Most of the humanities folks are universities are underpaid and underappreciated, but you do have really cool cocktail parties.

I followed my bliss and got my Ph.D. in a social science area. The money situation is not great (especially when you try to grow a family and keep a roof over their heads), but I like going to work almost every day.

[RadicalTexan]

11. Well

I know what I make know (not terrible), and I know what our new hires and associates and full profs make (in a non-star humanities department at an R1 public), and I see that I am chained to a desk 40 hours per week and that they are researching, teaching, and attending conferences, and it seems like they have the better deal financially as well as spiritually.

Compared to most jobs out there, TT profs have it pretty damn sweet. And are paid pretty damn well.

[undeterred]

10. I did the studies but didn't finish the degree.

I don't regret the education because its never wasted. Its a rich intellectual environment and the corporate world seems pretty pale and predictable after all that. But after two years of low paying adjunct jobs with no benefits I decided it wasn't worth more years of my life and borrowed money to write a dissertation. Only 30% of PhD students get actual teaching positions, and sometimes they get one offer in the middle of nowhere.

I went into computers to get a real paying job, and even that isn't a sure thing in this economy.

[kiva]

12. I'm finishing my PhD in history,

I'm 55, and have a tenure track position. I love the emphasis on teaching rather than research/writing, and I really like dealing with students who are pretty much what you described: first in their family to go to college, often non-traditional (I've had students in their 60s). I will be paying student loans pretty much forever, but I think it's worth it (of course, if I don't get tenure that may change).

Some things to consider: many states are trying to abolish or limit tenure; I'm taking a rather nasty pay cut this year, and likely another next years. I'm single, no dependents, and can manage, but many of my colleagues with families are having problems.

You know the main things - get your degree from a university in the top or second tier, and definitely only if you get funding; you'll still likely need loans, but hopefully fewer of them. Honestly, you've got a good grasp of the pros and cons, it's really a question of whether or not you feel comfortable making that leap - good luck.

[RadicalTexan]

14. I should've included that I don't want kids

I have a partner who is supportive and can teach studio art or art history in community college (he has an MFA), or work in several other fields.

But, no, we don't want kids - ever. So that helps.

[Davis_X_Machina]

13. In twenty years you won't be able...

...to take a humanities first degree, BA or BS, from a public college or university anywhere in the United States, nor at anything but a top-tier private university or college. And in twenty years, all but the top-tier privates will either have ceased to exist, stopped teaching the humanities, or both.

So the students you want to teach humanities to, and who probably want to get taught, more's the pity, just won't be there.

They will teach nothing but STEM, and business, because those are the only disciplines that can attract outside funding, and stand on their own bottom financially. The state legislatures -- all small businessmen, or with mindsets from that world -- won't pay for humanities students. And those students can't pay the full cost of their education.

After a thousand years, the university as it has been understood from the University of Bologna in the twelfth century, through Newman, to people like Michael Berube and Martha Nussbaum, is deader than Kelsey's nuts.

I've taught humanities (foreign languages) in high school for 30 years, and as the twig is bent, so shall grow the tree. What the universities will see is already here. It's a vocational-education world, and eventually this egg will move through the snake to the universities.

If you can do it without one penny of debt, it might -- might -- be worth a shot.

[RadicalTexan]

16. I am inclined to agree.

Thanks for this crystallization, Davis_X_Machina.

This all seems inevitable to me, too (shit, I am a Derrick Jensen fan and no doubt what many would consider a dystopian collapsitarian!). I have no hope in the America dream, or upward mobility, or any of that shit. I just figure, if I am going to have to work for wages, I might as well try to do something I actually value. And I know I could do it. I am even more sure now that I've worked in humanities admin for several years. I can't decide if it's realism about the issues you bring up that keeps me from seriously tackling the PhD road, or if it's personal fear of failure.

I'm trying to untangle my motivations and values, I guess.

I should add that I also know I have some books in me, and I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be better to just focus really hard for a few years on writing with the hope of getting published (it doesn't hurt that my best friend of 25 years just quit her job as a fiction editor at a major UK publishing house and still has connections there). I'm talking fiction, memoir, or niche nonfiction here, not academic writing (though I would really enjoy writing mass market history or similar).

Maybe I should be the artist instead of studying them. You know?

So I am torn on that, too.

Then again, I could do both. It's hard for me to find time for my writing working 40 hours per week as an office monkey. I know academics work a lot more hours, but they are a lot more flexible, too. The daily office grind saps my creativity hard.

[mrmpa]

15. I got my BA at age 47 & Masters at age 49

& thinking about my PhD for my 60th birthday (6 years from now)-Go for it

[gkhouston]

17. I wouldn't wish grad school on my worst enemy.

You sound like you're trying to talk yourself out of something you've already decided to do. Godspeed.

I went to grad school because I was bored silly in my job and I needed the extra education to do more interesting work. I did get that, and I learned a lot of things along the way--many of them unrelated to my discipline.

[RadicalTexan]

18. No, I have been putting it off for about eight years and am probably trying to talk myself INTO it

Haha.

But I have misgivings, because of peak oil and its impact on our "economy" and higher ed, and because I am not sure that I can stick it out for the 6 or more years to get to the end, especially with a very questionable and increasingly grim job outlook.

I wish my passion was in the sciences, but sadly I am a born humanities lover. A curse indeed.

[gkhouston]

47. It's a dead waste of time doing in a subject you don't love, that's for sure.

As far as the employment goes, nobody really knows what the job market will look like by the time you finish. Whether you can afford it now is the big question. Don't look at it as an all-or-nothing "I get the Ph.D. or I've wasted my time" proposition. The experience will change you, whether you finish or not, and the diploma may end up being the least important thing you bring out of those years.

[McCamy Taylor]

19. If you are pretty sure you can publish in your chosen field, do it

[CLANG]

20. It doesn't bother me either way, but good luck!

[Alcibiades]

21. I has PhD

From a top 25 school in my field. Your number one asset, once you have a PhD., other than any publications, would be an ability to do a nationwide job search. You're going to have a field, and a subfield within it, and there are only going to be so many openings nationwide. I had a job at a midwestern state school all lined up, but had to move since then because of my wife's job, and have not been able to work in my field.

There are a large number of small liberal arts colleges and state universities in the midwest, south and west that do have a hard time hiring, because people go in, get a few publications, and move on. Chairs don't want to always have a search committee running, so they would rather hire someone who can stay, who would be an adequate scholar and hopefully a more than adequate teacher, versus someone with great ambitions.

Also, be aware that the bad schools are easy to get into, but you'll be unemployable. I applied to 8 schools, got into 4 and took the one that gave me a full-ride teaching assistantship, which also happened to be one of the better schools anyway. Anyway, only one out of eight offered me funding. Apply to as many schools as you can, because you don't know which one might actually offer you something--in my case, the school that had the professor I wanted to work with gave me the best offer, but I did have to spend three years apart from my wife. Also, do examine the professors at prospective schools, determine who you would work with once there, and contact them during the application process. In my case, this was a major oversight, because the fellow I wanted to study with had already accepted an offer at Harvard.

Only 50% of my cohort wound up completing the program. The ones who made it were not necessarily the smartest, but the ones who wanted it the most. You may also need to amass some debt. The average time it takes to earn a PhD is seven years, and the average age at completion is 40, so you're the right age--there will be folks older and younger in your cohort, probably. Whatever you do, don't tell your professors you plan to zip through the program. It took them seven years, and you're clearly not as diligent or smart as they are, so you have some frickin' nerve thinking you can do that.

The irony is that I am now looking at jobs in higher ed admin. My advice is that, if what you like is the university environment, look for professional development opportunities in administration. The other possibility is to ditch the humanities altogether. If you're going to expend the time and energy, you might want to consider a field that has applications, just in case the academic dream proves illusory. If your reccomenders are as good as you say, their opinions will still matter, even if it's for a program in a completely unrelated field.

[RadicalTexan]

29. Thanks, Alcibiades

All great points to consider.

I wouldn't embark on a PhD unless I was okay with moving anywhere. I'm still considering that.

I would definitely be interested in landing a TT job at one of the small liberal arts colleges and state universities in the midwest, south and west that have a hard time hiring, with a view to staying there for the long haul, especially if I liked the town and could afford to buy a house there (a problem where I live currently - all the decent houses are about three times above our price range).

I wouldn't go to a bad program, either.

I was thinking applying to 7-10, which will run me at least $1000 in total, and hours of time. Would that be enough? Too many?

Thanks!

[Alcibiades]

46. Since you need a full ride

or close to it, you simply cannot have too many. I got lucky: my best offer came from one of my top three (UCONN didn't let me in and Boston University gave me no money). It wouldn't hurt calling the department to inquire what funding is like there.

Also, I got lucky in another respect: our department had a dedicated administrative person in charge of everything to do with graduate students, and I was really impressed with how she dealt with me during the application process. There is a lot of variability with regard to this, but having someone good to deal with all of that stuff (and there is a lot of it getting your PhD) cannot be underrated. If you are in touch with a school and the person charged with being in contact with applicants does not return phone calls or answer e-mails, you may want to reconsider, because that's probably the person who's charged with shepherding students through the byzantine paperwork required to get a PhD.

[lurky]

22. I started a PhD in the sciences in my mid 30's. I'm still working on it.

And yes, I'm totally happy with my decision. At first I felt self-conscious about my age, but that wore off pretty quickly.

It sounds like you know what you want and are comfortable with all the career possibilities. The fact that you can get a recommendation from a famous person in your field could open doors for you. I think that's far more important in PhD admissions than it is for undergrad or masters programs, for better or worse.

I personally would never even consider doing a PhD without full funding. It just doesn't make sense. To be on the safe side, maybe apply for some fellowships at the same time you're applying to programs. I did it as an afterthought, and to my surprise I actually won a big fellowship for my first 3 years (full ride plus a nice stipend). You never know, and having an outside fellowship gives you a lot more freedom when choosing an advisor and a research topic.

You will feel burned out at times. Everybody does. That's just the nature of PhD work.

Rankings of PhD programs aren't totally meaningless, but they are too general to be very useful. Every department has strong research areas and weak research areas, superstar professors and, um, less-productive professors. Having a really good advisor is the most important thing, IMO.

Also, do you know specifically what you want to study? It seems like the most effective way to get into a program is to find a professor who is doing active research that interests you and send them an email demonstrating your interest, asking for advice, gently inquiring about whether they are looking for students, etc. If they are too busy and famous to respond to unsolicited requests, maybe you can contact them through back-channels via your friends in your department. If a professor tells the admissions committee he or she really wants to work with a specific student, and the student has at least the minimal qualifications, the student will almost always get in, at least in my department. It also just really helps to come in with a focus rather than being lost at sea. Then again, I came in with a focus and discovered I hated the work I was doing. I changed topics and advisors and now I am happy.

Anyway, good luck!

[RadicalTexan]

30. Great advice, lurky

Thanks!

I have a broad idea of what I'd like to do: interdisplinary research on some facet of medieval or early modern Britain, possibly stretching into the 19th or 20th century in some areas (such as, say, the history of single women and spinsterhood, or the literature of British Jewry), within a traditional English department setting.

Suicide, I know. I know. :beer:

I have also heard cautions against contacting potential supervisors and people you'd like to study under, as it can be considered too brown-nosey and they don't have the time to field all those inquiries. Is this a question for the individual graduate coordinators at the respective schools? I don't want to seem to peach keen Alex P. Keaton. ;)

[mike_c]

32. if you don't mind me chiming in here...

...I might be able to offer an insight. I've advised a dozen or so grad students in my department over the years, and most of them contacted me directly in some form or other, usually email or a phone call. I prefer phone calls, frankly. They're less formal feeling, mutually participatory, and seem more effortless than composing a written response.

I like hearing from prospective students-- it helps me put a voice on the faceless application forms. A conversation often give me impressions about a prospective student's commitment, and their intellectual maturity. That's a sword that cuts both ways, of course-- I have declined otherwise qualified students at least partly because we had an awkward, unfocused or strained conversation, so don't be afraid to convey your passion if you can.

On the subject of making a nuisance of oneself-- I feel like every prospective student has the right to ask to speak with me, because the selection process goes both ways. If I'm not interested I'll generally say so, or at least not encourage further contact, and it's after THAT that repeated efforts can become annoying. But I think it's always a good idea to at least try it once so you can gauge the level of mutual interest you might share with a potential future adviser.

[RadicalTexan]

34. Thanks, that's very helpful indeed

It's a thin line, I think. This is good advice. Again! :)

[Swamp Rat]

23. Which school you go to does not matter nearly as much as who is on your dissertation committee

and the nature and breadth of the skills you learn.

1. I chose a inexpensive, local, state school over Ivy League schools and do not regret it one bit, especially since I have no huge loans to repay.

2. I did not even bother to study for the GRE. Passed anyway. Got scholarships. Do whatever you feel is right for you.

3. You are still very young - go for it!

4. Do not expect employment, nor tenure (which may not exist in the future).

5. Expect to move far away for a decent teaching job.

6. Don't expect a lot leisure time, and expect to be overworked and undervalued as a professor.

7. Follow your star.

The greatest reward is a measure of intellectual freedom, time to pursue the acquisition of knowledge and share it, and to be in an environment where learning is, ostensibly, the main activity.

[RadicalTexan]

31. Thanks!

Swamp Rat, I didn't know you were an academic!

Thanks for telling me I am "very young"! Ha. Sometimes I feel like I am, and other times I feel old. But I like being this age. It's nice having some knowledge of one's self, and how (some) things work, and having confidence, knowing what you want and value, etc.

I agree with what you say about not expecting employment or tenure. Particularly in humanities, I think people who don't go in with this clear-colored-glasses view are seriously deluded and setting themselves up for a huge resentment problem later. But, I figure I'll be either working as a secretary, being underutilized, spending all my time tied to a desk and computer and phone, OR I can get paid to research, write, and perhaps teach (eventually). I don't want to make a lot of money, so long as I can pay my existing student loans and have a small place to live (I am happy in my 500 sq ft apartment currently), and my partner and I can do some traveling (which would be made much easier by an academic schedule, as opposed to the two weeks per year us plebs get off work - fucking ridiculous). Traveling for work is cool. I would love to spend some more time in the British Library. The pass I had as an MA student has expired!

Thanks for the perspective. Insightful as always, Swamp Rat.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

24. IMO you may have many other alternatives you have not considered, in addition to

the two alternatives you specify in your OP (Humanities PhD or secretary).

There are thousands of nonprofits in the arts and humanities where you could work without going back to school. What is the range of things your fellow alums from the Masters you completed are doing?

What job openings among nonprofits in your region of the country are available now? Who FUNDS the research being done in your department (Guggenheims, etc.). You might consider getting in on the other side of the grant-proposal process. Is there an employment agency in Boston that specializes in placing people at nonprofits?

Also, there are dozens of other possibilities for further education to consider. Your OP said you were impressed by where new PhDs from your department are being placed. But IMO you should also ask yourself what happens to these people five or six years out--those placements of new PhDs are possible only because hundreds of "used PhDs" are being sacked. Where are they going? What do they now wish they had done instead of spending years getting a humanities PhD? You can learn a lot just by looking at the PhD alum mailing list for your own department's graduates. You might consider how you could get there by shorter, more direct routes--masters programs in Fine Arts or MBAs oriented toward the arts and the humanities, for example.

After considering both these kinds of alternatives, if you still want to invest years of your life getting a humanities PhD, then IMO you should go ahead. You're young enough, you know about departmental politics and publish-or-perish, and you have connections in your field.

I wish you the best whatever you decide.

[RadicalTexan]

33. It's not just that I want to get a PhD

I want to be an academic.

I could work in a nonprofit now (and make less money than I am earning as a university staffer).

My department doesn't even have a grad mailing list! Haha. I need to talk to our grad coordinator about that. I am not even sure what our placement rate is. We have two very small foreign language programs, and I suspect about 75% of the PhD takers find TT jobs, with the rest either giving up and doing something else altogether, marrying and dropping out of a career, or moving abroad (some are foreign students and go home).

Funding of faculty in my department comes predominantly from a few endowments and professorships from individuals, the NEH, and other federal grants. Currently we only get about 15% funding from taxpayers/state subsidy, even though we are supposedly a public state university. 30 years ago we got 85% from the legislature. That's the way it's going, for sure. I hope we make better decisions than the UC system, but I think the corporatization is inevitable. I think I would be in a better position as a TT faculty member than as a staffer. We will be contracted out soon, I figure.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

42. 'I want to be an academic' Then before you apply to schools and while you wait to hear

from them, you might want to pump not only your grad coordinator but also your grants coordinator for information about areas that match funders' longer-term priorites. You may find out about not only fellowships you can apply for to fund your education but also which subfields (such as "digital humanities") might help make you self-funding as junior faculty. Continuing familiarity with the details of funded proposals can open many doors and raise tenure chances in most any field.

http://foundationcenter.org/marketplace/catalog/product_downloadable.jhtml%3Fid%3Dprod2360005%26navCount%3D1%26navAction%3Dpush and other hits from http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=humanities+site%3Afoundationcenter.org&btnG=Search could change your life, especially if you use it to help guide your decisionmaking in your field from the start.

[RadicalTexan]

43. Awesome!

This is just the kind of tip I have been looking for while trolling (in the old fashioned sense :) ) the Chronicle forums!

Great! Great stuff! Bookmarking!

Thank you!

[JCMach1]

25. Only if you want little control over where you live and work..

You have to go where the job offer is... If you are cool with that and the years of pain and agony to get through and then the pain in the ass to get tenure, go for it.

Also know that every job in the humanities field you pick will have at least 100 applicants.

Other than that, it's great!

[RadicalTexan]

35. There were 200 applicants for my staff position

A large percentage of them having master's degrees.

[JCMach1]

40. Didn't mean to sound so negative- If you can make it through the obstacles, it is seriously great

I landed in administration, but still keep one foot in the professorate. I get about 3-4months off a year. I actually earn more by working part of that and STILL have 6-8weeks off. I also get 1 or 2 conferences per year paid for.

I get to pick most of my own hours and because I work overseas the vast bulk of my massive wealth :sarcasm: is tax free.

In the US, I actually made more as a HS AP/IP teacher for History than I did as a Prof in the University of Texas system (about 35% more).

If you can't be flexible, just stick with your current job (which might actually pay you more at the end of the day).

[RadicalTexan]

41. I hear you

I am actually in the UT System currently.

If I can manage not to burn out or get laid off I can retire at 54 at about $65,000 per year salary in an admin position.

The pros are:

I love it here.

I get some perks such as one free class per term, access to the library, proximity to amazing museums and such.

I am well paid, I think, considering my job is 8-5 and not that stressful.

My job is 8-5, with overtime only rarely.

I like my coworkers.

I get a week and a half off at Christmas.


However, I have a nagging feeling that I want to do MORE than admin work, and I am desperate for more time away from work. If I decide not to a PhD, my other plan is to pay off all my debt in the next five years and then drop to maybe 30 hours per week if we can afford it (should be able to, since I don't require a large, fancy, expensive place to live). I want to focus on my writing and travel. Of course doing this would negatively affect my retirement, but I think, for me personally, this would strike a nice balance between living in the here-and-now and keeping an eye on old age (my mother has worked her ass off as a secretary for 45 years and is now over 60 with ZERO retirement, savings, or healthcare). I have little faith that "the system" will still be in place 30 or 40 years from now when I am at that age, but I don't want to just say "fuck it," and then find myself destitute if I could've prevented it. The public pensions will be the last to go. I am lucky to still have old school benefits here, and if I stay I want to join the staff council to fight for their preservation (as well as student tuition and access issues).

I would kill for 3-4 months off per year.

[JCMach1]

45. Yeah the time off rocks... I can research, increase my job skills, and travel...

[Hekate]

26. YES. I entered an MA/PhD program in Mythological Studies with a degree emphasis in...

... Depth Psychology the week I turned 47. The private graduate institute I attended houses the Joseph Campbell Archives and each class meets 3 consecutive days a month for very intensive lectures/seminars.

It doesn't get much more "humanities" than that, especially since it was interdisciplinary. I don't regret it for a moment. The classes were a joy, writing papers was a joy, as were the lectures and most of the people. Writing the dissertation was lonely isolation; maybe that separates the sheep from the goats, but it's not something I want to do again although my dissertation is a fine piece of writing.

Prior to that, like you I was a secretary and an admin asst, some at the local University of California campus and some at the County. I had been very restless in my job for quite some time, and lonely for people to talk to about the kinds of things that interested me. I read and read, and read some more in my area of interest.

Unlike you, I had family--two teens, a husband, a fair amount of drama. Also unlike you, I already had a feeling I didn't really want to teach full time, nor did I want to move away. My parameters and goals were different from yours, but I just knew I needed to do this. You sound like you really need to do this.

My program required that everyone go through the MA to get to the PhD, and given the kind of studies and their orientation, that made sense. We had a lot of midlife/midcareer people enrolled, most of whom already had a Master's degree in something, and several of whom already had PhDs. They were looking to deepen their approach to their careers, especially the practicing psychologists and those already in creative endeavors (art, film, writing); or to change careers to more creative endeavors (teaching, research, art, film, etc).

That particular degree program's career outcome is very much what you make of it, but luck plays its part as well. You can't determine the national economy, for instance, stuff like that.

Many younger PhDs all over the country who teach become "freeway flyers" -- lecturing at more than one college to patch together an income, lacking full time status, tenure track, and health insurance. It's hard to pursue personal research and publication under those circumstances. That is one risk you take.

What did I do with mine? I took a fork in the road: I completed the diss in 2002, and stepped into the streets to oppose Bush with every fiber of my being. I feel like I did good work, necessary work, and doing it kept me sane -- but by the time I burned out, it was a bit too late to pick up where I had left off on that other part of my life. I am sorry about that. However, I never returned to being an office worker.

I'm not sorry I took that midlife journey though. I entered writing about Demeter and Persephone (LOL: did I mention my teenage daughter dragged me through hell?) -- and when I left I was ready to take the screen name Hekate.

Best of luck to you. You know you want to do it -- now just figure out how. PM me any time if you want to talk.

Hekate

edited to comment on one of your last questions: "Even thinking about prepping for the GRE, refreshing my critical skills, and getting into academia mode would be futile, ...right?"
Personally, I found that (1) I had never stopped writing, (2) I had never stopped thinking critically, and (3) I had never stopped reading. Getting back to researching and writing academic papers after 25 years turned out to be no problem for me. For a surprising number of my classmates it was a problem -- I know because one of the first things I did was form a study group that met in my home, and I saw their struggles. But the basics were not a problem for me. Somehow I don't think they will be for you either. ~H~

[RadicalTexan]

37. Thanks, Hekate

Thank you!

I may PM you later after I do some more thinking.

I already have an MA, but I suspect my interests would require me getting another, as I am likely to go in a slightly different direction (I did an interdisciplinary MA focusing on modernism, and I would prefer to do a PhD in medieval/early modern British history/lit).

I do NOT want to become a freeway flier. If faced with that, I would consider the PhD a personal enrichment opportunity (as I would not accept a place anywhere than doesn't offer me full or very near full funding) and move on to something else. At least I would've gotten to spend several years following my passion, rather than in an 8-5 desk job, and I would be able to publish independently or apply for fellowships.

I feel blessed regarding my lack of desire for children. I don't want to get married, either, and would be considering this regardless of my romantic status. However, I am also lucky that my partner encourages me to follow my original passion of academia if it's what I really want, and is willing to follow me around if necessary (he has an MFA and can teach art or art history, and has many other skills besides). We don't have big goals regarding property or asset acquisition. Our goals are study, writing, activism, and travel.

What you say about the classes and papers being a joy resonates with me, too. I miss that. I can take a free class each semester as a benefit of being a staff member, and I have taken advantage of that a couple of times. I enjoyed the lectures immensely, wondered what the hell I was doing when I found myself 30 and taking a three hour final the Saturday afternoon before Christmas break, and found it very tough going, what with working 40 hours (really 50) per week. But I think if I was in a structured program, especially a grad program where you start out with academics fundamentals classes, small seminars, and LOTS of reading, I would thrive.

I also think that, as a somewhat "mature" student (but, it appears, not too mature for PhD programs, which is a relief), I know what I want out of this process, I am doing it from a place of genuine interest and with a very realistic idea of the challenges and risky employment outlook. I am not of the opinion that "the economy" will experience an upswing, and I would worry about the impossibility of finding ANY TT position 6, 7, 8 years from now when I would be on the market, but I think the skills I would learn would be valuable for me personally and would enable me to take some passion for the humanities as well as a niche subject knowledge into my broader community should we see some type of Kunstler post oil apocalypse. In that type of situation, I could see myself working in a community or rural K-12 age cooperative teaching situation, trading my specialized knowledge for other skills my neighbors have, teaching their children, etc. My partner and I also have a long term goal of buying some land and becoming at least partially food self sufficient. 10-15 years out, if the economy doesn't make this a necessity sooner.

That's sort of where I am coming from with all this. It's complicated. Yet, not. :)

[Hekate]

27. At least one of my classmates already knew what her topic would be, so nearly every paper ...

... that she wrote during the whole classroom portion of the MA/PhD program was aimed at getting some of her dissertation research out of the way. I don't think she actually told anybody that's what she was doing, until later. I enjoyed meandering through the groves too much to have done that myself, but I have to say she certainly zipped through her dissertation in record time, and finished first.

However -- do you know what they call the one who finishes last?
























Doctor.


You're welcome. :hi:

Hekate

[renate]

28. talk to a few PhDs at a nearby university

They will have a realistic view of the job market and of the academic life... maybe they can even guess at what the next few years will bring for new grads.

If the journey and not the destination matters, go for your PhD whatever anybody says. You need to think about what you would feel if you look back, 10 years from now, at how you spent this past decade. If you would regret not having gone for it... go for it. But if your eventual goal is not the PhD but a job in academe... good luck. My parents were professors in the humanities; they followed their bliss, as you would be doing (it's pretty clear that you have a strong pull in the direction of a PhD) but it was still a LOT of HARD work and nasty internescine politics (it was soooo ugly sometimes) even at a time when the humanities were considered an important part of universities, but you already know that the ivory tower ideal is BS. There is still lots of room for exceptional and enthusiastic PhDs, though, and I have a friend whose research is pretty much just pop culture but she's an extrovert and *excellent* at advertising herself and putting her name out there, and she is doing very well. I guess I would say--be prepared to spend a lot more time on politics and self-advertisement than the traditional academic is probably comfortable with. If you aren't doing potentially money-making research like the engineering, bioengineering, etc folks are doing, it can be kind of tough for the introverted types.

Oh gee whiz... I don't want to be discouraging and it kind of came out that way. But I also don't want you to go into a lot of debt with hopes of a cozy booklined study when you graduate but instead come out at the other end with a part-time appointment at a junior college. (Unless that is the life you want. Less pressure to publish and to perform, plenty of emphasis on teaching. It's wonderful too, and probably much more fulfilling than teaching a bunch of spoiled kids on their parents' dime; just less secure.)

I really would suggest that you talk to people who once had the same ideals and stars in their eyes that you do now. It sounds like you have an excellent head start and all the tendencies that are required in academia. It also sounds like you have an incredible desire to get that PhD and would be fine no matter what happens when you're done. It's great that you're not just trying to escape from the life you're leading now but are really just trying to choose between two good options. Good luck! :hug:

[RadicalTexan]

38. Thanks, renate

More great perspective. This thread is full of win!

Thanks for all the realistic encouragement and help with what I consider a "discernment process"!

I am not willing to go into debt. I already owe a pretty penny for my undergrad and MA and will be paying it off until I am in my mid-fifties, best case scenario.

I am willing to do it if I can get full funding, because I figure the lifestyle would suit me better than being a secretary. I make more money than a grad student currently, but I have very little free time, and my life is defined by alarm clocks, lunch breaks, and living for the weekend.

I would be happy teaching at a junior college, especially if I had some job security (hence, I would be willing to do so in a small town somewhere).

Thanks so much for the help!

[End Of The Road]

36. Some things to consider, maybe

U.S. universities are facing huge funding issues right now (as I'm sure you know), and funding for humanities programs usually takes a back seat to other disciplines.

Until the whole economic and funding situation turns around, more and more non-tier1 colleges and universities are hiring adjunct professors, because it's cheaper. Would you be happy teaching college as an adjunct? I know I wouldn't, because of job insecurity, lack of benefits, no real research funding, etc.

If you can get a PhD from a top program and graduate with a shot at getting a tenure-track position at another top program, I'd say go for it. But hurry! The number of PhDs competing for those (fewer) positions is increasing.

Found an interesting article here that you might not have read already: http://criticism.english.illinois.edu/2010%20Spring%20pages/readings/Newfield%20Profession.pdf

good luck!

[RadicalTexan]

39. Thanks for the link

I will read this later, looks right up my alley and very relevant!

No, I would not be happy as a permanent adjunct. Which is why I would only consider a PhD if I can get into a strong program with full or very near full funding, which I think I might be able to do.

However, I don't want to slave away preparing for the GRE and writing statements of purpose and calling potential advisors and filling out millions of pages of paperwork and getting my hopes up and spending at least $1,000 if I am unlikely to get there.

I would be happy teaching at a community college or small public university of small liberal arts college. As opposed to being an admin monkey with even less job security.