I am pretty underwhlelmed by kindergarten

[underpants]

nothing against the teacher or the school-considered a really good school

My kid is going back over ABC's and shapes. She mastered that 3 years ago, when she was TWO

We paid extra for Phonics training at daycare. All of the kids who did phonics classes were leaps ahead of the kids who didn't.

ABC's? She could spell and write and do math (multiplication) at 4. Not bragging but I thought that was the norm, I thought we were just staying up to speed. Hell I didn't get to get off the floor with her and watch a football game from a chair until she was 2 1/2.

We put her in a structured program (national daycare chain) with a curriculum and everything. Again- I just assumed that was what we supposed to do and that everyone else was doing likewise.

*sigh*

As much as my kid LOVES the TV I guess everyone else has parked the kid in front of theirs.
Now my kid has to go over the stuff she went past at least a year ago.

[Taverner]

1. My story is different: My son is getting way too much Home Work

Every night there's a good 90 minutes of it - and that's if the kid is working fast

[underpants]

6. That is actually part of the problem

There is no homework. She passes the whole thing off like it is nothing.

She should. I can see myself- completely bored - in this and that is NOT what I want.

I was expecting homework to do. Not yet.

Kids need structure.

[RayOfHope]

10. Kids need structure, but not necessarily homework.

Think of it this way: why introduce a subject in class and then have the kids go home to figure it out themselves? We call that "sit and git it" in our district, and it doesn't work for everyone. You can structure the class period so that the students learn, understand, and review concepts inside a classroom without taking a sheet of paper home. I promise you its possible, and there is a whole set of learning structures built around this concepts. Check out kaganonline.com

[Warpy]

13. Get her some books to take to kindergarten to read

I was an early reader and that's what my mother did. Teachers soon found out that if they wanted me to put down the book and go over stupid stuff like shapes, colors, ABCs and numbers, they wouldn't like my reaction.

I went to two kindergartens and both teachers realized very quickly it was best to let me read unless there was fun stuff to do, like painting or rhythm band.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. We were lucky with my early reader

(and that was through no design of ours - he was just determined to break the code, as it were. I spent hours and hours and hours making giant alphabets down the driveway in chalk, or cutting out letters and putting them all over the room... so no surprise my determined little man was reading well by 3).

His kindergarten teacher (and others through elementary school) really noticed where he was, and gave him special things to do, without making a big deal of it. (Emotionally he was still 5, even if academically he was several grades ahead at least). He wasn't ever bored, and learned to love going to school - I think the best thing teachers in those early grades can do!

[Warpy]

37. Once my teachers caught on to the fact that I was actually reading those books

and just had me join in the fun stuff, I loved it, too. Most of the early grades were the same, and woe be to any teacher who expected me to devote any attention at all to Dick & Jane, worst readers ever produced.

If a teacher picks up on the fact that extreme boredom goes along with being ahead of the program and adapts, early readers do just fine. Most of the other kids eventually catch up.

[grace0418]

28. I learned to read at 3 and much of grade school was really boring for me.

Kindergarten was fun because we just played and sang songs and colored. This was the 70s so I don't think they were even trying to get kids to read at that point. I knew how but I was just as happy to make art all day. But then when we got to first grade and I had to sit there and listen to them teaching things I'd known for years, it was a real drag. When I was in 4th grade, they start a program for the advanced kids, but it was just more homework, not more interesting subjects.

I was hoping things had changed since then.

[gkhouston]

47. I didn't think I'd live long enough to get out of high school. College was a godsend.

Middle school was the worst, since there was some tracking according to ability in most of my high schools. My kid's lucky enough to be in a GT program and she's pretty happy most of the year, but when they do review in the spring, she's a real behavior problem due to boredom.

[grace0418]

150. Oh god yes. College was like heaven for me. I actually didn't not so great the first

semester because I wasn't used to actually having to work for a good grade. I shaped up pretty quick and got back to nearly straight As, but not before getting a C in Calculus that was worth 5 hours (and he was being generous with that C. Ouch! Boredom was a real problem through most of school, and I simply wasn't interested in doing MORE work in the same subjects, that seemed to be their only solution.

[Missy Vixen]

56. She's in kindergarten

There have been multiple studies linking high-pressure learning situations in early childhood to PTSD.

For kids that age, their work is play. If she's enjoying herself, great. If she's learning it because her parents are pushing her, you might want to rethink.

A parent of one of the kids in my class was freaking out over the fact his son didn't know his colors at 18 months. The child in question had much more pressing problems than the inability to name colors on a flashcard.

[sense]

110. All kids don't "need" the sort of

structure provided at school. Kids need to be able to learn freely and without the limitations placed on them at school.

[Odin2005]

54. Kids are getting WAY too much homework.

It's as if they WANT to make kids hate school.

[sense]

111. Yes. The busywork sent home is ridiculous.

What did they do with all those hours at school? Well, they waited in line, had lunch, waited in line, waited for the teacher to get the class under control, waited while the kids who're acting out got all the attention, and waited some more.

[Fire1]

138. Yes, you did the right thing keeping your little darling at home. n/t

[sense]

145. Sarcasm.....

better used in a forum you have some knowledge about.

Typical of someone unable to see the difference between different and better.

[Fire1]

149. Lady, you read a few books and now you're an authority on the

subject?! Surely you jest! LOL!!! I have a Masters degree in Education and a Specialist degree in Education Administration!! I am now getting an endorsement in Special Education and working toward my doctorate! What are your credentials?

[sense]

151. So then you're part of the problem?

What do you know about gifted children?

[Fire1]

154. I know that many who think their children are 'gifted,' are not.

Was your child testd?

[sense]

157. So then you're aware of the mythology

spread by the teacher's union?

He's a teen. He speaks six languages so far and has three years of college credits.

[Fire1]

159. Has he ever been tested? n/t

[sense]

162. Yes.

Although, everyone he's met since he was a toddler easily recognized that he was "different". Not better, just different and ravenous to learn. Testing told us nothing new.

[Fire1]

164. What type of test was it and who administerd the test? n/t

[sense]

168. So that you can pick apart whatever I say?

No thanks. I asked you what you knew about gifted children. Your reply said it all. Testing, testing, testing..... the only person that testing has any value for is the teacher who's got a classroom full of kids they don't have time to know. All studies have shown that parents and care givers are much better at knowing the rate and level their children learn at than teachers. There are far too many kids who are never identified as gifted due to an enormous amount of factors in their lives and because some insist that only this test or only that test will tell. Many are gifted, yet have unidentified learning disabilities that could be overcome with the proper therapy and enable their gifts to shine through.

You ignored my son and his experience. Without a test, you apparently know nothing.

They stopped the test after three hours when they couldn't find his ceiling......then "labeled" him in the 99.9 percentile.

[Fire1]

170. Ok, the fact that it took you this long to come up with an answer

tells me all I need to know. I won't even get into your defensive rationalizations. Bottom line, you made that judgement call and have no definitive proof that your son is gifted. Period. But, that's 'ok.' We all think our children are 'exceptional.' No more to see here. Move on.

[sense]

176. Stunning.

You must have no life beyond this site! Excuse me for having one. You're calling me a liar because you have nothing else.

You are absolutely a part of the problem. I'm not remotely defensive, nor do I rationalize. I'm honest and I've studied the subject for more than 20 years.

No more to see in your posts, that's correct. As I said before you should simply move on to a subject you know something about, instead of trying to bully your way through something that is beyond your scope of knowledge.

Fail.

[sense]

152. Lady?

Assumptions and dated vocabulary.

[Fire1]

156. I see that my attempt to be cordial or polite is unappreciated. n/t

[sense]

158. simply recognized as condescending.

[Fire1]

161. Guilty. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

182. "Cordial"? "Polite"? Do they have dictionaries at your school?

I get that teachers are frustrated and demoralized. I don't think it's appropriate to take it out on every parent you encounter.

[babylonsister]

2. Wow.

OT, but I vaguely remember when your baby was born! Time flies!!! :D

They will all catch up with each other is my guess; kids learn fast. Their heads aren't filled with politics!

[sense]

112. Ugh!

There is no catching up for many. There is a lot of dumbing down to fit in. They want to learn, they're eager to learn before they go to school. Then we bore them into submission.

[zazen]

3. in what state and district are you enrolled?

They can vary a lot.

Generally, I find that the complexity of the schedule and rules is a lot more overwhelming for kids at that age (and really not age appropriate) and the curriculum a lot less challenging than it could be.

[Liberal_in_LA]

4. Well, everyone can't afford extra training for a toddler

Glad your kid is doing well though

[underpants]

8. We couldn't afford it either

I was on unemployment until a year ago but we still paid for daycare..and phonics... so she wouldn't miss her friends and would get professional instruction. We are still stretched thin but not like it was.

[LiberalAndProud]

5. Speak with your principal.

My daughter asked for a meeting with the principal because of concerns like yours. She gave him a letter my granddaughter had written to the teacher describing how much she liked school. Shapes, numbers and letters disappeared from my granddaughter's curriculum. It may work for you too.

[RayOfHope]

9. How about he asks the teacher first?

The teacher is the one to ask FIRST. If the parent feels as if they get an unsatisfactory answer, then its time to involve the principal.

[Dappleganger]

22. Thank you!

Why do people feel a need to go over the teacher's head without even giving them a CHANCE??

Sheesh.

[LiberalAndProud]

24. You're right. Teacher first.

I don't even remember why my daughter thought it was better to go to the principal. But certainly the teacher should be the first point of contact.

[RayOfHope]

7. How long has school been in session? A couple of weeks

I teach kindergarten. Today was our 21st day. We've been going pretty easy on the academics so far because we've been working on learning school procedures and working with the dynamic of the class. There might also be more happening at school than you realize. My students bring home very little paper, because we do lots of cooperative learning and hands-on, differentiated instruction (the groups or pairs get activities to do that are based on their academic needs--some need the basics, some need more challenging activities).

I have to ask about the multiplication though. Does she know the facts or does she understand for example three groups of six makes 18?

[underpants]

12. Two weeks - you surely know more about the process

She HAS brought home a lot of paper but mostly coloring stuff - which does include behavioral stuff about being a "good citizen" (littering, saluting the flag, sharing, etc.)

She understands the retention part of it and my wife (who is a math whiz) had tought her about groups and adding groups.

[RayOfHope]

17. If you have concerns, talk with the teacher.

Two weeks really isn't much time. I personally HATE coloring sheets and dont give them out myself, but I need to spend those first couple of weeks learning about where the kids are developmentally and academically so I can design my curriculum to benefit them. I have students that are closer to 4 than they are to 6 and I have a handful of 6 year olds. I have kids that haven't ever held a book and have no idea how to even begin to hold a pencil, let alone write their name. That's a pretty wide range developmentally, and it can be a challenge to meet everyone's needs (it gets done, though!)

Talk with the teacher and see where they're headed. You might be pleasantly surprised (hopefully you will be, if its a quality program).

[Dappleganger]

23. Good advice, and remember

the first part of the school year is always review, pretty much up through high school.

[underpants]

58. Thanks. Yeah I guess I need to see where this actually goes

the school she goes to has 7 Kindergarten classes-both of the schools our friends kids go to have 1 class in each school.

They switched her teacher over from another school (after she had set up her classroom) about a week and half before school started. We were told that our girl would have a different teacher and then Thursday before school started we got a call from the teacher she has now.

[exboyfil]

35. Hey my older daughter got all sorts of coloring

opportunities in 7th grade Social Studies. One of the reasons my younger daughter, now a 7th grader, is being Homeschooled in two subjects (English and Social Studies).

[Fire1]

99. She means does she have number sense and understand

place value.

[Count Olaf]

11. I know exactly what you mean

I started homeschooling my son after kindergarten, when he fell behind his younger sister in reading. He was going backwards, with just the dumbest homework that I had to make him do, and the 'books' they were reading with 5 words...he was so far advanced of that it was a crime to keep him held back in school. The only think he was getting was sick all the time and absurd behaviors. My kids still love learning, love free time and freedom the choose what and how they learn. They are reading very advanced novels now, writing their own novels, doing high school Algebra 2 in middle school and none of us have ever felt sorry about homeschooling.

Homeschooling- Not just for morans and fundies.

[underpants]

15. I purposely avoiding making this about homeschooling

I think (THINK) it is more about parental apathy than anything else.

[Dappleganger]

21. That's not always true.

Not every single parent has money to put their child in a nice daycare setting which emphasizes academics. Not every single parent thinks that daycare holds value for their child, either.

[underpants]

77. repost from below. BTW thanks for your posts on this.- seriously

I was out of work from Sept 08 to Aug 09 but we decided (literally sat down to talk about it) that she needed to be with her friends not stuck at home with dad (who might get lazy and just click on the TV) while she COULD get structured learning. Also I had to be avaiable for interviews and the spot could be gone when we suddenly needed it.

My post was meant to be about the fact that we (all our parental friends of kids in her class) pretty much decided collectively to do phonics because:
a. we didn't want the kids to get bored
b. didn't want OUR KIDS to be the ones that dragged things down - by that I don't mean it as an end-of-life sentence just that we didn't want them to suck up all the attention.

I just assumed that parents were somehow getting things done to the same or greater degree than we were. Whether it is at a daycare, or at grandma's house, or at a neighbor's, or any other scenario I just thought that people didn't park the kid in front of mindless TV and then dump them off on the school system. Again I understand that we are both lucky AND we have made direct choices that literally cost us. I just thought that that was what you were supposed to do.

I will admit that we have been lacking in teaching her to swim and ride a bike- things both my wife and I could do at the age of 5 (well before it actually).

[elehhhhna]

177. the teacher can give her worksheets for when she's ahead/bored

worked well for our gals, and you can select the worksheets to offer her if you like.

and hey, we had a neighbor who was an elem. school music teacher (!) who "never thought of that!" when I played "where's your nose, etc.?" with her toddler. need I say she was a hugh, series freeper. imo, her kids are domed.

[Klukie]

30. I do recognize that many parents are apathetic,...

but it is not always the case. Some children will struggle simply because they are not interested and because they simply do not possess the abilities needed to be on top. This is life....I have always maintained that not everyone can be a rocket scientist and if a child is advanced most schools have programs that will identify that and give them the proper outlet.

[Count Olaf]

36. all it takes is a few apathetic parents and the class caters to the lowest common denominator

It isn't the teacher's fault, I wouldn't blame them at all. With classes these days, there are so many children with out of control behaviors the teacher mainly spends the time trying to get the class to settle down.

[Maat]

57. I had a similar experience.

That's why I homeschool. I've been doing it for four and a half years now, and have never regretted it.

[sense]

113. We home school for exactly the same

reason. Best decision we ever made. Starting year 12.

[abelenkpe]

14. Kids friends have similar experience

My son has moved up to lower elementary (1st grade) and my daughter is in preschool at a montessori school (I know it's not for everyone, but I love how they are allowed to grow at their own pace.) Many of my son's friends have decided to leave the school and go into public school. Their parents researched the best districts and got their kids in magnet or charter schools. They opted out of Montessori because of the economy which has everyone struggling of course. Anyway, all I hear from the parents whose kids have moved on to these other schools is how their kids are bored stiff doing letter tracing and shapes just as you've described. One of the boys is completely brilliant, was doing fourth grade level reading and knew his multiplication tables inside out is upset to be back tracing letters.

I don't think parents just sit their kids in front of TV...well maybe some do. But the public schools seem to require kids march in lockstep so those ahead of the curve get bored and frustrated.

I don't make much, live in a small apt. with no yard and surly neighbors below but would rather spend my money sending my kids to a school where they can excel at their own rate. Not that they are brilliant or anything. Ideally it would be nice to see that approach in public school so everyone could benefit don't you think? That's the kind of education reform we should be discussing, not how to break up teacher unions or pay teachers less. But what do I know?

Maybe you can find some enrichment programs that your kid will enjoy so they don't lose their love of learning?

[sense]

114. Absolutely!

Schools designed around what the kids need, not just to provide day care so parents can work and to provide work for adults. Quit matching them up by age. There is nothing more irrelevant.

[Archae]

16. Nothing new.

Back in 1966 I drove my first grade teacher nuts, she had no clue what to do with kids who already knew how to read.

(I was also what they now call "hyperactive" or "ADD.")

[RayOfHope]

19. NOT ALL KINDERGARTEN PROGRAMS SUCK! Sorry to yell, but there are wonderful ones

This thread makes me angry and sad and I'm sorry that people have had such bad experiences.


My colleagues and I work extremely hard to have programs that meet EVERY child's needs, whether they struggle or are what we call a 'high flyer'. We support and challenge and encourage. It can be done and it IS being done. We encourage critical thinking, we don't demand that each child 'march in lockstep', and we encourage empathy and problem solving skills. I'm very proud of what we do.

[underpants]

70. That is why I used the word "underwhelmed"

I understand what goes into it. My mom was a teacher and I LIVED in libraries and around teachers as a kid.

[sense]

115. That's correct.

I was able to find pre-school situations where the teachers understood that the kids all had different rates and levels of learning and made accomadations. Once we got to "real" school, everything went downhill.

[Dappleganger]

20. You may not want to read this...

but in my experience it will even out in a couple of years. Just because your child can read earlier and do her math now doesn't make a good predictor that she will be ahead of her class in another year or two.

You did well by getting her ready, academically. There is more to life in kindergarten and she will not be damaged by being there.

[moc]

41. Very true. By 4th grade, those early/late readers are difficult to distinguish in most cases.

[sense]

116. They've checked out.

Learning is no longer fun or interesting. Imagine someone teaching you the alphabet day after day, after day......when you learned to read years ago. You're not allowed to move forward until you've "learned" what they teaching and are paying attention...... we all give up at some point and just try to make it through the day.

[moc]

167. Your understanding of the developmental process is simplistic and uninformed.

You're assuming that those kids "ahead of the curve" at school entry will be the same kids ahead of the curve in late elementary school. This is just not the case. Early reading is not indicative of giftedness. These kids aren't "checking out". They're being surpassed by their peers. It's quite common for a child for a whom the reading etc. "clicked" at a slightly later age to end up being the gifted one in later elementary school. I've seen it many times.

[sense]

175. Your understanding of what I do and do not know is

simplistic and uninformed. I've studied and read an enormous amount on the subject for the past 20 years. Actual studies, not anecdotes. Early reading is one of the many signs of giftedness. That doesn't mean that everyone who reads early is gifted, but it's certainly a sign.

Gifted kids are checking out. I've seen it a lot. I've experienced it personally. It's extremely common when gifted kids are not recognized and are denied what they need. Read the studies, then you might have a leg to stand on. Try this site:

hoagiesgifted.org.

The mythology you're spreading is harmful and doesn't agree with the studies.

[underpants]

59. No no no

I didn't mean that at all. She isn't in this for trophies - for her or for me

[BlueIris]

91. Thanks for this. nt

[sense]

109. You may not want to read this....

but kids even out because the dumbing down in school bores them out of their minds and they lose interest in learning because they never get to actually learn stuff they don't already know. That's mythology put forth by teacher's unions and not remotely true. We are all individuals and need education at our rate and level of learning.

My 5 year old entered a language immersion kindergarten having taught himself to read at 3, knowing multiplication, division, fractions, etc. and hated school with a passion because there was nothing being taught that he had not learned years before. He was absolutely damaged by kindergarten. When we finally removed him to home school after he completed 5th grade at the age of 8, he was so angry it took nearly a year to get back the polite, kind, accomplished, ravenous to learn, child that we had turned over to that school. He'd learned about bullying, foul language, being beat up and other great things.

I repeat, we are all individuals and to say that they'll all even out is ludicrous. Did Barack dumb down to the level of most of the people his age? I don't think so. What about Elizabeth Warren? We all have different strengths and weaknesses. We have them from the moment we're born. The only thing all 5 year olds have in common is that they're 5. It's time to realize that grouping kids or anyone else by age is not remotely going to allow them to learn at their rate and level.

He entered college knowing 5 languages. There is no possibility he'd have learned that if he had to waste his time in school. I speak only 1 language. Home schooling is a term, not a description. I facilitated his education. I filled the house with books to spur his interests and found (many times at no cost) mentors, classes, tutors and many other resources for him to access so that he could learn at his rate and level. He's not alone. There are many others out there doing the same for their children. Not all are interested in languages or the other things he excels at, but without the time to explore things beyond the shallow pablum being dished out in school, yes they'll all "check out" and dumb down to try to fit in. Many times that's the only way for them to survive. And survive may be all they're able to do in an atmosphere that is stultifying for many.

[MissB]

25. How many kids are in the K class?

[Count Olaf]

34. her math now doesn't make a good predictor that she will be ahead of her class in another year or tw

that is because they are not progressing as they should- they are held back

[underpants]

63. 18

there are 7 classes at that size. There were 6 at 23 (roughly) but in the last week before school they added a class and our girl happened to be picked to change classes. We had met the first teacher (we live that close to the school) and then it was changed.

[Pithlet]

26. Having been through this twice, I would say don't worry too much just yet.

I'm assuming you just started recently. With Kindergarten in the beginning it's as much about getting them used to school as it is about learning, so they may not be focusing as much on academics right off the bat. Our school's Kindergarten program was pretty heavy on the academics, and even they were doing the pretty basic stuff like that at first. In my case they were bringing home readers and math worksheets every night before long, and there were programs like accelerated reading that my boys took part in. But they definitely eased them into it.

[underpants]

60. Okay

thanks. I guess I do just need to give it some time. I expected something else that's all.

[sense]

117. I'd start advocating right away.

So many are resistant to provide an education for all. It's a lot more work with the current system where kids are grouped by age.

[Bettie]

83. Also, most K programs group kids by ability as they move on

My kids ended up doing whole class work and group work. In the group work, they worked at their own level, in the class work, they were with everyone else, but it didn't start immediately, it takes a few weeks to get everyone used to the flow of the day and figure out where each of them should be.

[southernyankeebelle]

27. Your not being fair. Do you realize some people can't afford a very good daycare. My goodness some

of these people are single parents and are barely making it. See if your child can moved up to a higher grade level. That is great she is doing that well. Not all children are able to afford the right schools like you. I wish I could afford to send my grandchild to a daycare like that. I couldn't afford it when I checked it out. I have her at a daycare were they love the children and do work with them. I read to her and I have her get on zoodles.com that have free learning games for different age groups. She is learning how to handle a computer. Don't put others on the same level of your child. Each child is different.

[Dappleganger]

29. None of our four children ever went to daycare.

I taught them how to read myself, and they all did just fine. You're exactly right, every child is different and comparing them to others is foolish.

Children that age should be playing a lot, not all of it structured. I am a strong believer in pushing the creativity/dramatic/musical/building + major free time at that age.

[NotThisTime]

106. What happens when a child just enjoys learning? They look at and learn things just for fun? Then I'm

called the bad guy for "teaching" my kid way too much for his age... he's been 3 years beyond grade level since he was 4, things have not changed. He's 15 and in a different type of school that could cater to his needs & no we really can't afford it but we have no choice.... This is one child who believed free time meant learning....

[Dappleganger]

108. You erroneously assume

that children don't learn during free time. Free time means being able to entertain/occupy oneself without specific adult direction, which your son is doing.

[sense]

118. Exactly!

It's perfectly ok for your kid to be advanced at sports, but not in academics. Such a shame. My first child came out of the womb asking for books (just a slight exaggeration). He learned to walk at 8 months only so that he could get to the books if I wasn't quick enough.... The second child, much more interested in sports and moving. We are all individuals and need to be treated as such in all areas of life is we're expected to contribute to society. We need an enormous variety of interests and talents to be nurtured, not just certain interests at certain ages.

[underpants]

76. We really couldn't either and I do realize that all kids are different

I was out of work from Sept 08 to Aug 09 but we decided (literally sat down to talk about it) that she needed to be with her friends not stuck at home with dad (who might get lazy and just click on the TV) while she COULD get structured learning. Also I had to be avaiable for interviews and the spot could be gone when we suddenly needed it.

My post was meant to be about the fact that we (all our parental friends of kids in her class) pretty much decided collectively to do phonics because:
a. we didn't want the kids to get bored
b. didn't want OUR KIDS to be the ones that dragged things down - by that I don't mean it as an end-of-life sentence just that we didn't want them to suck up all the attention.

I just assumed that parents were somehow getting things done to the same or greater degree than we were. Whether it is at a daycare, or at grandma's house, or at a neighbor's, or any other scenario I just thought that people didn't park the kid in front of mindless TV and then dump them off on the school system. Again I understand that we are both lucky AND we have made direct choices that literally cost us. I just thought that that was what you were supposed to do.

I will admit that we have been lacking in teaching her to swim and ride a bike- things both my wife and I could do at the age of 5 (well before it actually).

[yellowcanine]

31. KIndergarten should be about learning how to socialize and organize oneself.

Not academics other than learning how to classify things into groups, problem solve, etc. My own daughter did not learn to read in kindergarten (University based). Her first grade teacher was all concerned about it. Guess what? My daughter and her classmates from that kindergarten were the top readers in that class by Christmas. Why? Because they knew how to learn. The focus on day long kindergarten heavy on the academics is misplaced. I myself did not even go to kindergarten. I learned to read in first grade. I have always been an excellent reader and read for recreation as a kid. Most kids, particularly boys, are not ready to read before 6 or 7 years old. Push some kids too much and you are going to make them dislike reading. It is far better for them to be read to by a trusted adult at that age than to push them.

[Pithlet]

33. There are studies that back this up.

I agree with you. In fact, I recently read an article about how some countries in Europe are trending away from this because of those studies now, and kids are doing better because of it.

[moc]

40. You are correct. There are many many studies to back this up.

Not like I'm in the mood to prove it to anyone. But, long story short, deficits in self regulation and executive function skills is cited as the most significant concern of kindergarten teachers in terms of school readiness. And it's these skills (self regulation) which are associated with school achievement, not which kids enter knowing how to read or (:gasp:) how to do multiplication of all things.

[sense]

179. Those studies are based on "average"

children, not the children on either end of the spectrum. Children's needs are individual, just like ours. What is enjoyable or fun for one is not for the next.

[midnight armadillo]

43. Amen

Kids need to play.

[Odin2005]

49. I am so sick of the socialization nonsense. It's BS.

Unless a kid has an autism spectrum disorder or similar learning how to socialize is instinctual and does NOT need to be taught in a classroom. "Socialization" REALLY means "train kids to be good corporate drones".

Oh, I was reading when I was 3. Boys are not ready to read until 6 or 7? that is complete nonsense.

[demmiblue]

51. I respectfully disagree.

How we interact with others is an interplay between nature and nurture. Sometimes the nature overrules the nurture, and sometimes the nurture overrules the nature. I have seen many children with autism spectrum disorders that are far more socialized than others. It really isn't an innate ability.

The readiness of boys in terms of reading is a generalization that is based on research. It is not a value statement. Most of the children with autism spectrum disorders, that I have known, were highly intelligent children that exceeded these generalizations.

[Odin2005]

53. And age-grade classes are the best way of "socializing" kids why?

The proper environment for "socialization" would be age-mixed and unstructured. I am no saying social behavior is instinctual, I am saying the learning of one's society's social norms is instictual. it is much the same as language. language itself is not instinctual, but language acquisition is. Us folks on the spectrum had to learn it much as a person learns a foreign language as an adult, but for most kids it is similar to how a little kid learns his native language.

[RayOfHope]

163. Did you ever read Lord of the Flies, lol? Spent time in a room of 5 year olds?

Been around ANY five year olds, for that matter? Been in an elementary school lately?

If all kids were from perfect loving homes, perhaps there would be no need to teach certain social skills. The reality is that this just doesn't happen.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. I disagree. It's very important.

Sure you can look at it as a corporate drone thing but I see it as teaching kids to be part of a group. No man is an island.

My favorite memories of my own education were the friends I made.

[sense]

180. Then obviously school worked

for you. That only means that it worked for you. I hated school. It was boring and just something to be endured until I could go home and read about the things that interested me. You can't put all kids in the same box and call it good.

[RayOfHope]

88. I am a teacher and mom of an Aspie. I can tell you it most CERTAINLY does need to be taught

I've read with great sadness your stories of how you were treated in school. Working on social skills early helps that not to happen. Teaching social skills does NOT mean requiring kids to sit still and be quiet. Its much, much more than that.

Kids do not instinctively know how to work out problems with other students. Young children are also very ego-centric and need to be encouraged to look at things from anothers perspective.

[Odin2005]

94. But is a classroom the best place for that? I don't think it is.

At best it can be a stop-gap solution in a place with an already poor community feeling and cohesion. The best teachers of social skills are parents and a strong, tightly-knit community; the "it takes a village" mentality. If you want to improve kids' social skills you MUST improve their communities.

I grew up in a little, very tightly-knit rural community in NW Minnesota (Minnesota Nice and all that). Parents that did not teach their kid to act appropriately were berated and shamed by the community until they did so, or until the parents (usually the dead-beat alcoholics of the community) admitted they could not control their brats and law enforcement and CPS got involved. We didn't have the stereotyped situation where the parents of a nasty, anti-social child would insist that their little Johnny is a perfect angel, the community would simply not put up with such BS.

Pretty everything I learned about social skills I learned outside of school.

[RayOfHope]

97. Are you freaking kidding me? Its not appropriate, for example

to help Student A learn to nicely ask Student B to scoot over if Student B is in Student A's spot? Or how to respectfully ask for a turn instead of grabbing an object out of another child's hand?

Contrary to what you think, teaching these skills actually builds classroom community. A free-for-all where kids grab, shove, push, etc doesn't make kids feel safe. A feeling of mutual respect and knowing they're safe is what builds community. I KNOW this, its my job, and I've seen this in classrooms that do work on social skills and those that don't.

I live in the third largest city in my state--there are over 150,000 people in my city and over 600 kids in just one elementary school. There are parents that don't possess these skills, and the kind of small town shunning you speak of does nothing to teach or promote social skills if they aren't there in the first place. The tightly-knit community you speak of is my classroom, and it happens because of loads of practice with social skills.

And yes, nothing teaches positive social skills like berating and shunning. :eyes:

[sense]

181. I'm happy to hear that your classroom works.....

Except that the classrooms of my youth also appeared to work...because those of us who didn't fit in kept our mouths shut and pretended so we wouldn't be picked on any more than we were. It was stultifying. Kids are much better socialized in a normal environment unlike the artificial environment of schools where they're segregated by age. In the real world, where learning is 24/7 and you interact with all ages you much more quickly pick up what is acceptable and reasonable behavior. You learn to interact not just with 30 other 5 year olds, but with anyone you meet.

[RayOfHope]

194. Who said otherwise? I was arguing for teaching social skills. Of course learning

is 24/7. And at my school we're lucky enough to have lots of cross-grade interaction.
Appropriate socialization skills have their place in school, no matter how sucky you think public schools are.

[lumberjack_jeff]

184. YMMV

I have both neurotypical children and a child with autism. Their learning needs were different, but the neurotypical kids absolutely DID need "socialization" skills - maybe even to a greater degree. (I dislike that term only because "socialization" means something different in a school setting than it does in every other venue)

If little kids want to learn to read, help 'em... but if the 5 year old can't read, don't lose a lot of sleep over it.

[underpants]

61. I am not pushing her. But I do thank you for the advise.

thanks. I guess I do just need to give it some time. I expected something else that's all.

[sense]

121. Individuals all.

My first child taught himself to read at 3. My second child wasn't interested in the same things and mostly taught himself to read at 8. I would never want my 5 year old taught to socialize by 30 other 5 year olds. That's artificial and they'll never again be forced to spend entire days with just their same aged peers. Without academics my child turned into an angry monster. Provide him with stimulating things to learn and he's a completely different person.

Individuals. One size does not fit all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

183. I agree with this.

When my kids were pre-k I misunderstood what the important stuff was for them to learn.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN

All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sand pile at school.

These are the things I learned:
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.

Take any one of those items and extrapolate it into sophisticated adult terms and apply it to your family life or your work or government or your world and it holds true and clear and firm. Think what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world - had cookies and milk at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and then lay down with our blankies for a nap. Or if all governments had as a basic policy to always put things back where they found them and to clean up their own mess.

And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out in the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.

http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm

[Klukie]

45. +1000

[underpants]

75. Thanks for the nice post

:loveya:

[LWolf]

98. +1,000 nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. Poppycock.

Fruit juice is MUCH better than milk.

Other than that, HELL YEAH. :thumbsup:

[moc]

38. Phonics training in preschool? Are you serious?

Sorry, but that's not what preschool, or kindergarten, for that matter is all about.

You probably don't want to hear this, but "academic" focused preschools and kindergartens are not associated with better outcomes for children. Indeed, child directed activities that focus on problem solving, imaginative play, etc., are associated with greater growth in executive function skills.

FWIW, I'm a developmental scientist who's been doing research on school readiness for 15 years.

Like I said, this probably isn't what you want to hear, and I fully expect to be blown off.

[dflprincess]

52. You made me feel better

I hear how structured (really regimented) some of the people I work with have made the pre-schoolers' lives and I've wondered if kids ever get to lay on grass and pick out cloud shapes or watch the ants and make up their own stories about them. Sometimes I wonder where the inventors and writers will come from if kids aren't allowed to let their imaginations run wild when they're little.

[underpants]

69. Yes I am serious

and we (all our parent friends) knew that this was a developmental thing it was just getting them to where we thought they should be.

Part it was to make sure that MY KID wasn't they one holding everyone back.

The daycare is a national one with curriculum that included all kinds of FUN things as well as added programs. We opted for the phonics. :shrug: she reads Dr. Suess (sp?) books by herself or at least has memorized them. I was skeptical at first (especially when I was out of work - $75 a month was a bit much) but the kids she did phonics got comments from every teacher and everyone at school about how well they were doing. Again I am not bragging of overly pushing my kid. My wife and I both wanted to get her up to a point where she (and we) could enjoy after school and weekends. We anticipated homework (we have heard nightmare stories) so we just wanted to start rolling downhill if you will.

[moc]

86. It sounds like you are a very good dad because clearly you and your

wife are invested and involved in your child's education. I feel bad that you spent $75/month that it sounds like you couldn't afford because honestly, in my professional opinion, this was not money you needed to spend.

A couple of things jump out at me in your post. First, the fact that you said your daughter may have "memorized" Dr. Seuss is a red flag. This is an indication she is not really reading. Pre-literacy skills are not limited to letter recognition and sight words. A very important part (some would argue a more important part) is comprehension. I have known children who were taught to "read" as preschoolers, but they were just memorizing and had no comprehension for what they were reading. Once they got into elementary school, and their lack of comprehension became apparent, they had to do a good bit of back tracking to be taught how to really read.

There is also a potential downside of pushing academics too hard at an early age. There is a huge range of readiness for these activities in young children. Some children who are only 3 are obsessed with letters and numbers and want to start learning how to read/add/etc. Others show no interest whatsoever until 6 or later. The important thing to remember is that this entire range is *normal*. If your daughter is seeking out this kind of information, then by all means support her interest. But, if she is not, and she is forced to engage information she's not developmentally ready for, there are risks. There is evidence that children who participate in overly-academic focused preschool/kindergarten programs develop heightened anxiety and lower academic self concepts.

You mention a national chain daycare, implying that such should induce confidence they are engaging in developmentally appropriate practice. Unfortunately, you cannot make that assumption. In some of our previous work, we did observations in national child care chains (Kindercare specifically) and the practices they engaged in were just the opposite of developmentally appropriate practice, to the extent we wondered how they got accredited. Also, it's important that not all "fun" activities are created equal in early education. It's not enough to give kids "fun" things to do like arts and crafts or outdoor play time. A well-structured early childhood program uses structured "fun" time which is purposefully organized in a way to foster the development of the skills most important during early childhood, specifically executive function skills.

Like I said, it's clear that you and your wife are invested and involved in your child's education. Honestly, that's the best thing your child needs. With that level of involvement, your daughter will do just fine. However, you might find it helpful to be armed with more information about what should (and shouldn't) be happening in early education, about what is important/not important. Here is a NYT article about a curriculum approach focused on executive function skills called "Tools of the Mind". If you would like any more information or references, feel free to PM me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/magazine/27tools-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

[Doremus]

100. Excellent post. Thanks.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. I had that same reaction

I teach urban low income kids, many of whom have never been read to, don't know letters or numbers and quite a few who don't even speak English. So the idea of phonics in preschool is bizarre to me.

We are shaping a two tiered society. And we start when they are 3 years old. Sad.

[sense]

185. It has nothing to do with a two tier society

We are individuals. I could not have stopped my child from learning to read at 3. That's who he is. He came out of the womb that way. He was extremely alert and focused on learning everything he could. Yes, I suppose I could have locked him away from the books, but that would just be silly.

The two tiered society is about rich and poor, not about forcing kids to read at 3. He never learned phonics, we simply read to him and he figured it out. He's a different duck, but that doesn't mean we pushed him or that there aren't many more like him.

[sense]

122. As a developmental scientist you

should be well aware that we all learn differently and what is best for one child is not best for the next. You're dealing in generalities and as parents we're dealing in children, individuals who all have different needs.

My 1st child found the "usual" pre-school and kindergarten to be boring and infantile. He couldn't figure out why the others weren't able to carry on a decent conversation. My second....loved all the noise and physicality. Individuals. Real people.

[moc]

169. I never said one shouldn't recognize individual needs. Indeed, a child centered approach does just

that.

The problem is the assumption that an "academically" focused preschool or kindergarten environment fosters positive academic achievement. It doesn't.

[sense]

171. Who's assumption was that?

Not mine.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. You paid for phonics classes for a small child?

Oy.

[underpants]

71. Yeah

and it was well worth it. No regrets at all.

[Fire1]

142. Competition, I tell you!! This nation runs on "competition!" LOL!!

[AwakeAtLast]

42. There are a lot of other things that she probably gets during her school day

Music, P.E., Art. Imaginitive play, role playing, drama. And doing all of that within a group dynamic, which is an education in itself.

It usually takes a few weeks for teachers to place students in the right groups. I imagine they will be chaning around soon.

Add all of that in with getting used to a full school day, and that makes for a lot of learning!

I have taught Music for twelve years, and I always forget just how young those new Kindergartners are - I fall in love with them every time! :)

[underpants]

62. Yeah they do all that too.

thanks. I guess I do just need to give it some time. I expected something else that's all.

[Klukie]

44. You need to get a grip...

This is only kindergarten for god sakes.

[underpants]

74. I have re-read my original post

to make sure it was considerate and it was.

Maybe you should get a grip and re-read it to better understand the written word that was put in front of you.

[sense]

124. You need to study the subject

before telling someone else to get a grip! I recognize that the OP's child is clearly not the "average" kindergarten student. So does she. I'm just happy that she's catching this early so she won't make the same mistake as so many and leave the child in a toxic (for them) atmosphere.

[WinkyDink]

46. I don't think most children have mastered the alphabet and multiplication before Grade K.

Are you expecting writing in cursive? Long division?

"Curriculum" at age 2 or three? What happened to play?

[gkhouston]

48. Actually, I could do a little cursive at that age.

I had a sister who liked to play school and I was her hapless pupil. :rofl:

[underpants]

64. There was plenty of play

great pre-K

When I was out of work we could barely afford it but we kept her in because all of her friends were there and because I had interviews and could have suddenly gotten a job (which is how it ended actually).

[sense]

125. Play for many is reading,

and learning.

[Mariana]

190. Absolutely. A lot of people don't get that at all.

Probably it's because their own experiences at school led them to think that reading and learning are dreadful chores that kids have to be made to do with threats and punishment. I've known kids whose relatives refuse to get the kids books for birthdays or Christmas because "I want to get them something fun." Yikes.

[demmiblue]

50. Developmental levels are all over the place at that age.

And it isn't just about reading and math abilities.

The concepts of socialization, fine and gross motor skills, psychosocial needs, etc. all play into how a good Kindergarten curriculum is implemented.

If anything, I think that there is far too much emphasis placed on 'academics' rather than everyday skills (not by Kindergarten teachers, but by this high stakes attitude that prevails in education today). As many have pointed out, many of the academic differences even out over time.

I have to say, though, many of us have been were you are and have felt the exact same way. And you are certainly correct in regard to the fact that positive educational outcomes are often directly proportional to parent involvement. Often, not always.

As long as your little one is happy and engaged, I wouldn't worry about it.


P.S. You sound like a great dad! :loveya:

[underpants]

65. Okay yeah I think that makes sense

thanks. I guess I do just need to give it some time. I expected something else that's all.

[sense]

126. You expected, as I'm sure your child did,

that they would get to "learn" in school. Not that they'd be expected to dumb down and pretend to be happy about it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. Mine were in teh same boat, though in my case they were home with me and not in daycare. The teacher

found ways for them to work at their own level, but there were still times when that couldn't be managed. We kept giving them some enrichment activities at home to make up for that, and still chalked it up as a win because even though they were ahead academically they both needed to work on the social aspect of things.

Hopefully you can find a system that will work for your family too. :)

[underpants]

66. We'll see

thanks. I guess I do just need to give it some time. I expected something else that's all.

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. "Not bragging..."

Yeesh...

:eyes:

[underpants]

73. I wasn't

I put that in there to cover the bragging element and the pushing the kid element

but apparently not everyone got that. Sorry.

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. Oh, people got why you put it there

It's just that it's cringe-inducing and dishonest and transparent and pathetic, but whatevs.

[underpants]

81. As is your post

[sense]

127. Your attitude is the problem.

Where is it safe to talk about an avid learner? Nowhere. Avid athlete? Bring it on. Our priorities in this country are so skewed!

[alcibiades_mystery]

172. ROFL

:rofl:

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

68. Maybe you should request that the school look into putting your child into 1st grade? nt

[underpants]

72. After posting this

my wife and I talked - not yet. We both are just worried that she will get bored and THAT was what killed me in school (bad student).

I also remember playing after school something that parents with a little older kids tell us is problematic with the 40 pounds of books and work that THE PARENTS have to help to get done.

I guess I should enjoy the no homework days while they last.

Thanks.

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. 1st? Why not 8th?

The kid's a friggin' genius!

:rofl:

[Fire1]

102. Now, now. Play nice. All parents' think their little darlings

are exceptional.

[sense]

178. Simplistic.

Revealing more about your prejudice.

[sense]

128. Quickly!

Our school forced my child to wait until 3rd grade to move ahead. He advanced two years, finished 5th grade in two months. The school at that point, finally actually considered the child and realized they had nothing to offer him. He could keep moving forward in grade level, but the rate of learning would never match.

He needed something that met his individual learning style and pace.

[madmom]

80. I actually had a teacher call my daughter a liar when she asked her to name a book she read over the

summer and daughter said "Moby Dick" this was 4th grade, in front of the whole class. I quickly went to the school with a stack of about 20 "childrens's classics" including Moby Dick, Tale of Two Cities, Prince and the Pauper, etc. Told the teach to quiz her on any book she pleased, then proceeded to work on having my daughter transferred to another 4th grade class.

[Odin2005]

87. Ugh! Reminds me of my 3rd Grade teacher.

[Fire1]

107. It was more than likely the children's adapted version with

colorful illustrations and not the classic literary version, in which case, the teacher should have known better.

[sense]

186. There you go assuming again.

What is it that is so hard to accept about people being individuals?

[sense]

129. Sickening. But common.

My son didn't like to sing, so his japanese teacher made him stand alone (introvert) in front of the class and encouraged the children to laugh at him (not that many need much) until he cried.

[Mariana]

191. That's uncalled for in any circumstance.

My fourth grade teacher let me spend most afternoons in the school library, reading whatever I wanted, because I was bored silly in his class and he knew it. That was a long time ago, and I don't suppose teachers can do that anymore.

[sense]

192. That would have been heaven!

[vanlassie]

82. My Cal Berkeley Physics Grad son sat out K at home

Nothing wrong with kindergarten- but I see it as optional and not at all as good as being at home with an attentive parent for that age group. We had just moved and he had a new baby sister so I decided he didn't need anymore changes that year. I'm glad I did. He started public school the following year with his first grade age group.

[old mark]

89. Both my wife and I could read when we went to Kindergarten, and

since we were not supposed to, our respective teachers thought there was something wrong with us. Both of us "dumbed down" to the expected level to get along in class.
Neither of us was ever happy with school after that as a result...my wife barely graduated fron high school after cutting most of her last year, and I slept through my last 2 years because I was playing in a bar band.
FWIW, my wife graduated from Wiedner College in Pi Gamma Mu, National Social Science Honors Society. I made Deans list when working on my degree in Social work, minor in Sociology and second minor in Fine Art (I went back to college in my late 40's).
We attended different schools, many miles and 9 years apart,she in a good public school, and I in a supposedly good private school and I am sorry to hear that this bullshit and lazy teaching is still pretty much the norm.
School is designed for the AVERAGE kid, and smart kids seem to intimidate them.
We both advise that you continue helping your child at home, and let her develop there at her own pace and to her own desires and interests.
Obviously, the school system that failed us is still failing other smart kids.

Good luck - think about home schooling.

mark

[Odin2005]

95. I got in trouble a lot because I would correct the teacher.

I thought I was being nice and kind, since if I were in that position I would want somebody pointing out a mistake, even if the person happens to be a 8yo kid. But teachers constantly took it as me humiliating them and "disrespecting their authority".

[old mark]

105. Yeah, my wife did that, too....they get all rankled with that!!!!

Especially when you are right!

mark

[Fire1]

123. Mark, back in your day teachers weren't required to be nearly

as proficient and credentialed as they are now. Hell, I doubt if many even had a four year degree! Moreover, in those days the point of education was to control the neighborhoods and get the kids off the street while the parents worked in the factories. Education had little 'intrinsic' value and schools were run on a military and industrial model. Just think back to how the schools were built with kids lined up to go everywhere, the rigidity and minimal social interaction, speak when spoken to and no talking. You weren't even allowed to question or think for yourselves! Learning was teacher centered and the students were there to "recite, memorize and regurgitate." Period.

Education has come a very long way since then, Mark.

[old mark]

173. My sister is teaching for the last 30 years, and I first attended college at a former

teacher's college...and as I said, my wife's experience was 9 years later than mine, in a very upscale public school on the Philly mainline...My mom was a high school librarian, my MIL a college professor PhD, my BIL is a drama teacher in a high school in NYC. What happened happened, an dis still happening as classes are geared for the AVERAGE kid - those in both ends are left out, but the smarter and more able kids still have fewer options and still threaten some teachers emotions and capabilities.


mark

[sense]

193. Education is really one of the few things that

has not kept up with the changes in most industries. Questioning and thinking for yourself is still very much frowned upon in many schools and you can expect to be punished and humiliated in retaliation by some teachers who do not want to be questioned. There are far too many teachers who simply want to teach the curriculum they planned, not the students they've got.

[sense]

187. My son did the same.

We had to discuss how to correct them in private so as not to undermine their authority. Still didn't go over well. He would often bring the source of his information to school to prove to the teacher that she'd erred.

[Fire1]

119. Most schools now use differentiated instruction and teach

to the individual student at their level, where ever that may be. Lazy teaching has never been the 'norm.'

[sense]

188. Most schools are supposed to....

but that doesn't mean it happens.

[sense]

131. Yes, yes, yes!

My spouse and I had a similar experiences with education and ended up home schooling (just a term, not a description) our own children. Facilitating your child's education when school is not a fit for them may seem extreme, but it's becoming more common due to the state of our schools. There are a lot of resources out there, many free.

[MoonRiver]

90. Can you ask for an enrichment program?

The schools I work at offer students who are far above the average enrichment.

[sense]

132. Unfortunately

"Enrichment" usually means more busy work and they still have to do the dumbed down exercises that kill their love of learning. Not always, but much of the time. Something to watch out for.

[gkhouston]

136. It depends on where you are. We live in a large city and visited several elementary

schools before our daughter started kindergarten. The breadth, scope, and quality of G/T education varied widely from school to school. In the school we're zoned to, it was merely extra worksheets and a few hours of "pull-out" instruction once a week. In the school she attends, it's full-day immersion with other G/T kids using an enriched and somewhat accelerated curriculum. There were schools between those ends of the spectrum. It was worth all the time we spent visiting, although I sure got sick of doing it!

[sense]

139. Great!

I'm really glad you were able to find a situation that works. They are out there....our state is known for refusing to educate those at the upper end of the spectrum. They should be seen as special needs, just like the kids at the other end.

[gkhouston]

140. Since we're "severely gifted" ourselves, we were motivated to look for the best

situation we can afford. So far, she's had absolutely wonderful teachers.

[sense]

143. Great choice of words... can

I use that? I think it would go over much better than extremely or even profoundly. :-)

[gkhouston]

146. Sure, but it's not original. Think I saw it in a Mensa newsletter yonks ago for

the 5 minutes that I belonged to Mensa (the local group was fun in one city; boring as hell in another).

[sense]

153. Thanks.

Just like so many things..... great in one city and dismal in the next.

[MoonRiver]

160. Well, where I am it can also mean spending time in the next grade level classroom.

Plus, it can mean being given more challenging work to complete.

[sense]

165. Sounds like you're in a more

enlightened area. Very fortunate. Although my eldest did skip two grades..... That didn't address the rate of learning. I was even told by the school district that we'd have to sue them to get an appropriate education. It was a win-win when we removed him from traditional school. It's not for everyone, of course. It just worked really well for us.

[Nikia]

92. It sounds like a typical public kindergarten

They must educate all kids of varying giftedness and prior preparation. Because the less prepared children will be taught things your daughter already knows, they may catch up instead of being left behind. You acknowledge that your daughter went to a special program. If you want her educated at a higher level, you need another special program. She can continue to learn on her own outside of school too. Learning to sit through boring stuff is an important skill too.

[sense]

133. One day of "learning to sit through boring stuff"

is sufficient. Not much to learn there. You can learn tolerance wherever you are. No need to sit through 7 hours a day for years to get that. More dumbing down. Learning to be average little automatons. School is broken and harms so many. The entire system, from teacher colleges on down is not set up for this century.

[Fire1]

137. "Teacher colleges" went out in the 50's. n/t

[sense]

141. There are plenty of colleges known for educating

primarily teachers. Teaching majors are learning more about crowd control than anything academic. The college here is considered a very good school for teachers, yet they provide no education to their students about teaching more advanced or gifted (that dreaded, elite word) students.

[Fire1]

147. "Teacher Colleges," per se, that did nothing but grant degrees

for teaching, went out in the fifties, Mam!!! I know of which I speak!

[sense]

155. Ok, lets argue semantics....

Mam?

[Dappleganger]

174. School may have been broken for YOU

and your son.

It is not broken for MOST. I am happy that you are homeschooling your son successfully (we did the same for various reasons, at various times, for each of our children). It is time we celebrate our choices instead of berating others for what didn't work for your individual situation.

[sense]

189. I'm not saying it's broken for most.

I'm saying that it's broken for many. Making a different choice for those children who do not fit the mold for whatever reason should not be seen in such a negative light. I don't understand those who appear to think something weird is going on if every child is not the same......

I apologize if anyone with knowledge of gifted children feels berated. I'm simply angered by those who have no knowledge, yet insist they know what is best for all children. They scoff at a child who's hungry to learn, yet they'd be cheering for an athletically gifted child.

[Nevernose]

93. That's one of the biggest problems w/ all schools

Not all kids are on the same page at the same time. Its easier to deal with in the younger grades, but it will only get worse the older your child gets. The classes just get bigger, the school sizes just get bigger, and the cracks just get bigger, and we have a system designed to push every kid through to the same level at the time. As a parent and teacher myself, all I can suggest is being a pain in the ass at every possible level. The kids who I see failing -- and being failed -- most often are those who don't have kids who don't have good enough advocates.

[LWolf]

104. While I agree with your assessment of the system,

I have to strongly disagree with your characterization of an advocate.

It's true that the way the system is designed is counter to the way humans learn and develop. I've been advocating for a change is system structure my entire life.

An advocate, though, should not be a "pain in the ass." While the squeaky wheel often gets the grease, it also earns the distrust of the mechanic and is less valued than wheels that work smoothly.

The best role of an advocate, imo, is to build partnerships; to help create an environment, and a relationship, that allows everyone to work together for the common goal: the good of the student. This is less likely to happen when the advocate is a pain in the ass.

In my professional experience.

Here are some recent happenings in my professional world:

One student's parent was diagnosed with cancer last spring, and called in a relative to be the student's "advocate" at IEP meetings the parent can no longer attend. Previously, the school team and the parent had a good working relationship, and the student was meeting goals each year. The new "advocate" came in with an adversarial attitude, attacked, and demanded things that simply weren't possible. Like rescheduling services for every special ed student on campus to accomodate the schedule she wanted, rather than the schedule the student was receiving services on. She was suspicious, abrasive, and not only not willing to meet the team part way, she thought it was her job to dictate the entire process and what and how the student would be served, regardless of the actual legal requirements and authority of the district and school site to determine how best to meet those requirements.

Did this help the student? What do you think? Putting her in the middle of a relative who tried to bully her teachers, and her teachers who stood their ground?

For that student: I've had two long email conversations with the sick parent since the year started, and we're still communicating and working together just fine. She's happy. The relative who is going to be the "advocate," though? Showed up the first day of school with a list of demands and timelines to be met. Tight deadlines. A meeting has been set. Our district head of special ed will be presiding. We have to show up. I don't intend to speak at the meeting, unless directly asked a question, or unless I need to defend my own professional rights.

Meanwhile, I've had 6 students and 4 parents check in to tell me how things are going with students who moved on to high school this fall, and have had more positive conversations with parents of this year's students than I can keep track of.

Just last night I had calls from 2 parents who wanted clarification about homework, and calls from another who just wanted to check in and make sure her child was telling the truth about how is week had gone. They were positive, productive, and cordial communications. We're setting up positive working relationships.

Which is better? For parents to bring me their questions and concerns as partners, or for them to storm in loudly demanding, making a pain in the ass of themselves? Which is likely to be the most productive?

[Nevernose]

120. Sorry. I was just being flippant with the terminlogy.

I am a firm believer in the "more flies with honey" approach. The beuracracy doesn't always respond well to that, though. I see it more often at the schools that need to be MORE approachable for parents, too -- inner city schools like the one I teach at and the one my daughter attends.

At least in my district, these folks aren't set up for parents at all. They go out of their way to be hostile to the needs and desires of all students and their families, not just special ed (which is often the stereotype). And these are the schools where parents are often the most distrustful. Some of these folks have been screwed around with by thoughtless educational beuracrats for years; I often wonder why more of them don't have a hostile attitude.

An example: my kid's history teacher only posted lesson plans, homework, etc. On the internet. Poor neighborhood, many students don't have access. Including my own kid, who is at her mother's house two days a week. Library is closed after school and requires a pass signed by parents and teachers a day in advance to use at lunchtime, and then students have to skip lunch because there's no food allowed in library. This is also bad for ell and sped students, who often need the information given in multiple ways - auditorily, visually, pictorially. I tried nice with the teacher. Went through his AP, the school's head principal, had to work my way up to an ass't superintendant just to get an 8th grade history teacher to write his objectives and homework on the board. This despite a district regulation, a school regulation, and a failing-school SIP all ordering this to happen. Meanwhile, my kid is getting dinged every week for not psychically knowing what to do when she's not there. I'm sure it wasn't just my kid suffering, either; I talk to a lot of kids there. None of them had an advocate to say "this is wrong, and I won't take no for an answer."

You're right, though: "pain in the ass" was a poor choice of words and antagonism should only be a last resort.

[LWolf]

130. In my experience,

that kind of bureaucratic obstinacy develops when the school or district gets too big. I've worked in big and small districts and schools, and I've found that small districts, and small schools, tend to be more closely connected to the community that they serve.

I'm sorry you, and your daughter, are having such a hard time. :(

[sense]

134. Yeah!

A teacher who sees the bigger picture. I don't know why people like you seem so rare. Thank you!

[LWolf]

96. We take kids the way we get them.

There is no requirement that children attend pre-school, and no requirement that they learn academics before they begin school, and your daughter's experience is certainly not the norm.

Our K teachers focus on things like: How to sit. How to listen. How to have a conversation. How to wait your turn. How to hold a pencil or crayon, and what to do with them. How to hold and use scissors. How to tie shoes. How to hold a book and look at pictures. How to listen to a story. How to treat other children. What colors are, what letters are, what shapes are.

What their LAST NAME is. Naming the days of the week and months of the year. Time.

How to write letters. How to write their name. How to count. How to write numbers.

The majority of our Ks come to us not knowing these things. Many don't know how to use utensils rather than fingers to eat.

I'm a big supporter of universal pre-school. Pre-school doesn't have to be, and probably shouldn't be, academic. It's developmental, and should be geared towards preparing children for an academic setting. Young children CAN learn academics early, of course. It's best done, though, one-on-one or in very small groups, in a play environment, with no risk attached.

We'd be happy if our Ks came to school with some basic language and number development gained in regular, significant conversations with the adults in their world, and having been read and sang to and with.

[carlyhippy]

103. My kids were reading by age 4, but they didn't learn it in preschool

I taught them at home. I taught them phonics because I knew in our schools they skimmed over phonics in 1st grade, whole language reading was the teaching of choice. I learned to read with phonics, and taught them myself. I also taught them how to count, add and subtract, colors, shapes, alphabet. My kids didn't learn multiplication until later, and they learned concept plus memorized the multiplication tables. When they entered preschool, they were primarily there to learn social skills and how to interact with other kids and problem solve, to play and have fun, as they already knew the academic stuff. I am glad I did it this way. My kids have been straight A students most of the time up to today in college, hard working and goal oriented.

Did I park them in front of the tv? Yes I did, to watch mostly educational kid type shows, and they watched cartoons from time to time. I didn't want them to burn out on academincs, with starting them so young, we have to realize they are still very small children, and it's not all about academics.

[EFerrari]

135. It sounds pretty frustrating and that's pretty much what happened to me

when I hit kindergarten.

It's funny, though, because in a way it was a really useful year anyway. Since the "work" was so easy, I seemed to have used the time to learn how to interact in a classroom instead. I was an only kid at the time and didn't know all that stuff. So while academically it was probably a wash, socially it was really valuable. Go figure.

[TBF]

144. Same thing happened with my daughter -

I had her in national daycare with curriculum (Primrose) and she really learned a lot. Kindergarten at our local public school was repetitive, but it is a great school and we found other benefits. My daughter didn't have any problem keeping up, she made many friends, and did very well in first grade. She is continuing with all A's now in 2nd grade.

You may want to have your daughter tested for G&T just to be sure since she learns material so quickly. My daughter passed the first test, but not the 2nd level. So we're confident she's where she needs to be.

[sofa king]

148. I remember coloring a barn for math class in kindergarten.

Eventually, I went on to fail differential equations. But I don't think a more rigorous kindergarten training would have better prepared me for calculus. I just hit my limits of comprehension.

[Xithras]

166. Interesting. My sons (public) kindergarten REQUIRED letter/shape/color recognition for entry.

They jumped into basic reading skills their first week, and were doing math at the same time. 90% of the class had no problem with it.

The school had one class set up for "remedial" students, who came in without those skills. They were put into an aggressive catch-up program that brought them up to speed with their peers in about two months. Some parents were initially put off by the fact that it was NOT a kindergarten class, but was officially "preschool". As the kids caught up, they were transferred back into standard kindergarten classes. The handful of kids who couldn't master the pre-school curriculum were re-enrolled for kindergarten again this year.

The school primarily does this for test-score purposes. By consigning the under-performing students to preschool, they keep them out of the official school test scores. It's ultimately beneficial to the kids too, because it ensures that all of the kids are receiving the information they need to be successful.