Richard Dawkins Furious At Pope For Tying Godless To Nazis

[Kolesar]

Blogging with Alan Colmes! http://www.alan.com/2010/09/17/richard-dawkins-furious-at-pope-for-tying-godless-to-nazis/

Posted in Liberaland by Alan • September 17, 2010, 11:45 AMET • 102 Comments »

Pope Benedict’s speech to Queen Elizabeth in England praised how Britain fought “Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society,” prompting one of the world’s best known atheists, Richard Dawkins, to proclaim it “a despicable outrage.” What set off Dawkins is this paragraph:

“Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny” (Caritas in Veritate, 29).”

Dawkins responds:

Even if Hitler had been an atheist, his political philosophy was not based upon atheism and had no connection with atheism. Hitler was arguably (and by his own account) a Roman Catholic. In any case he enjoyed the open support of many of the most senior catholic clergy in Germany and the less demonstrative support of Pope Pius XII. Even if Hitler had been an atheist (he certainly was not), the rank and file Germans who carried out the attempted extermination of the Jews were Christians, almost to a man: either Catholic or Lutheran, primed to their anti-Semitism by centuries of Catholic propaganda about ‘Christ-killers’ and by Martin Luther’s own seething hatred of the Jews. To mention Ratzinger’s membership of the Hitler Youth might be thought to be fighting dirty, but my feeling is that the gloves are off after this disgraceful paragraph by the pope.

Dawkins is urging a letter-writing campaign to British media in protest, adding:

I am incandescent with rage at the sycophantic BBC coverage, and the sight of British toadies bowing and scraping to this odious man. I thought he was bad before. This puts the lid on it.

[BolivarianHero]

1. Which of them was a Hitler youth member?

Pope Nazinger

[mike_c]

5. that's gotta sting....

+1 :thumbsup:

[The Straight Story]

18. You are right - so he would be in a better position to know than someone who wasn't there (nt)

[urgk]

101. Better position to know what? Why Christians were in the Hitler youth?

Or why a member of the Hitler Youth might one day claim it was a godless movement?

Perhaps, since he was there, he could explain why Hitler said the following:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord..."

Or why Goebbels said the following:

Christ is the genius of love, as such the most diametrical opposite of Judaism, which is the incarnation of hate. The Jew is a non-race among the races of the earth.... Christ is the first great enemy of the Jews.... that is why Judaism had to get rid of him. For he was shaking the very foundations of its future international power. The Jew is the lie personified. When he crucified Christ, he crucified everlasting truth for the first time in history.
- Ein deutsches Schicksl in Tagebuchblattern (Munich, 1929),

Or this:

When today a clique accuses us of having anti-Christian opinions, I believe that the first Christian, Christ himself, would discover more of his teaching in our actions than in this theological hair-splitting.
-Joseph Goebbels, Evangelisches Zentralarchiv in Berlin, 2 March 1934: Hamburg,

[Overseas]

2. K&R! //nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. .

[iris27]

34. Exactly. n/t

[20score]

75. Beat me to it. Thanks!

"God With Us."

That is the slogan of every atheist I've ever met.

[krkaufman]

77. Nice! n/t

[ejpoeta]

4. if i am not mistaken they did all of that in the name of religion.

usually religion is used as some kind of justification for killing and hurting people. not always, but in most instances. but nice try on that rewriting history.

[progressoid]

K/R

[edhopper]

6. Lying, Fucking, pedophile protecting,

old, venial scumbag. That so many people still listen to this POS, and that somehow he is given respect from both the world media and heads of state, just because a few of old, kid loving, virgins decided to put him in his seat is reprehensible.
Dawkins was too easy on him..

[Uncle Joe]

7. I'm not an atheist but I agree with Dawkins on this.

Thanks for the thread, Kolesar.

[phasma ex machina]

8. Does Dawkins sweep exterminated Polish Roman Catholics under the rug? nt

[baldguy]

10. The Church's official policy towards the Nazis was of appeasement.

When Catholics were targeted, it was because they opposed that policy as individuals.

[Joe Chi Minh]

40. I think there is some truth in that, but it also speaks of the power of

the Catholic Church to withstand the gates of Hell, by virtue of such individuals, formed by the Catholic faith.

The writer, Hilaire Belloc, himself a convert, reckoned it was the greatest proof of the Catholic Church's divine foundation, i.e. that it has survived, in spite of the wicked distortion of aspects of its witness, historically.

It is atheists and agnostics who believe they are uniformly good. Although that was perhaps the greatest failing of the triumphalist, Tridentine church.

[MattBaggins]

45. "It is atheists and agnostics who believe they are uniformly good."

Nonsense. We believe no such thing.

[jhrobbins]

72. I think what Joe might mean (sorry Joe if I'm wrong) is that the mantra

of so many non-believers is that religion has caused most of the wars throughout history, thus causing all the suffering that religion is supposed to alleviate. My thinking is that collectively, men have not been corrupted any more by religion than not and that they would have fought just as many conflicts-and maybe more if not for religion.
I've heard this position a great deal about religion and I have to wonder if history isn't being rewritten. In just the 20th century alone, more people were killed by atheist leaders than possibly all other people killed in the name of religion throughout history. 26 million alone in Stalinist Russia.
I don't like to argue about religion, but it seems like a very vocal minority of non-believers feel it necessary to mock those that do believe; not unlike the fundamentalist Christians/Jews/Muslims that excoriate non-believers.

[jobycom]

85. That mantra is more of a defense against Believers calling us evil.

Usually when an atheist says religion has caused so many wars, it's a reply to accusations like the Pope made about how bad atheism is. We are just pointing out that religious people are rewriting history.

I've seen some atheists who get into that whole "Without religion there would be no wars thing," and I think it's ridiculous. Religion is like the ultimate trump card--people just do what they want, and then find some way to justify it, and religion is awfully handy. It's the one argument you can't refute. When someone tries to logically argue that they are slaughtering millions of people for their own good, or to make the world safer, or any other rationalization, it's easy to argue against them. When they say "It is God's will," there is no reply. Religion is the ultimate "Shut the fuck up!" response. It can also be used in the exact same way for tremendous good, as in "Yes, there are arguments against building an orphanage, but shut the fuck up, I'm building it anyway." How a person uses religion says more about the person than the religion.

But most atheists I know (including a lot who don't really admit to themselves they are atheist) don't care about religion at all one way or the other until someone claims some superiority over them because of it. As with me, gods and religions are just clubs other people belong to, like the Shriners or the Rotary Club. If you ask me what a Rotarian does, I couldn't tell you, and I don't even know if they really exist--it's just a word I've heard. I know churches exist, but the only time I ever think of them is when I get caught in traffic when they are letting out, or when someone like the Pope claims that people who go to them (or the right brand of them, anyway, since they seem to fight amongst themselves a lot) are better than me. Other than that, I've got other things on my mind most of the time.

[Arugula Latte]

51. Gee, Joe, it must be nice to read the minds of millions of us non-believers.

:eyes:

[liberation]

80. Another ode to logical dissonance.

... the Egyptian religion was vigent for far longer than the Catholic church has, does that also mean they were divine too?

What about the Jewish faith, which has been practiced for twice as long as the Catholic church. Does that mean, the Jews are actually doubleplus divine then?

I have no idea what your last paragraph does even mean, but it looks like a massive strawman.

[skepticscott]

86. And where is your evidence

that atheists and agnostics "believe they are uniformly good"? What atheist or atheist organization has ever argued that no atheist has ever done evil?

[kenfrequed]

109. The irony...

Of such projections is almost beyond words.

[edhopper]

12. What's your point?

Do you think Dawkins is defending the Nazis?
The Nazis killed a lot of people, they were evil. But they were NOT atheist.
The Pope is linking the Nazis with today's atheist, that is a lie and inflammatory to the point of provoking violence.
He is a truly horrible person.

[lolly]

21. Not at all

He presumably realizes that the fact that Catholics were killed does not mean that the killers were atheists.

[fishwax]

48. how so?

[Arugula Latte]

50. No but the Church sure didn't do much to help stop the Nazis, did it?

[Ken Burch]

71. They were killed because they were Polish, not because they were Catholic

and some of the German troops who killed them were ALSO Catholic.

[intaglio]

82. Do you mean the Katyn Forest massacre?

In which case blame the NKVD, ie the Soviet secret service.

[AlbertCat]

113. Does Dawkins sweep exterminated Polish Roman Catholics under the rug?

Does the Pope sweep the atheists exterminated under the rug? The ones Hitler killed AND the ones the Catholic church had been killing for centuries?

Those poor Catholics suffered more than anybody I suppose. Poor poor put upon Christans!

[JBoy]

123. You could sweep plenty by turning your strawman into a broom.

[BrklynLiberal]

131. If the church had stood up to the Nazis, perhaps the would not have exterminated anyone...

The Papacy was appeasing the Nazis and therefore complicit

[Initech]

9. Oh oh... The guy who was a member of the hitler youth is accusing others of being Nazis.

[struggle4progress]

15. Membership in the Hitler Youth was mandatory when Ratzinger was a member

... On December 1st, 1936, Hitler decreed "The Law concerning the Hitler Youth" which mandated that all young Germans (excluding Jews) would "be educated physically, intellectually and morally in the spirit of National Socialism" through the Hitler Youth from the age of ten onward. This law also effectively ended the Catholic Youth Organization which had managed to hold out for three years amid constant Nazi harassment. Parents who prevented their children from joining the Hitler Youth were subject to heavy prison sentences ...
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-prelude.htm

[Zoeisright]

52. Then the pope should be even more ashamed of that statement.

[skepticscott]

88. And who better than a "devout" Catholic

should know that doing the right thing sometimes comes with a heavy price? Especially since he explicitly acknowledges that some people did find the courage not to kowtow to the Nazis.

[AlbertCat]

114. Membership in the Hitler Youth was mandatory when Ratzinger was a member

And he just went along with it and didn't fight it, I suppose. A true upright character worthy of the big funny hat!

[davepc]

130. How exactly does a 14 year old fight the Nazi movment by himself?

Of all the criticisms of the man, being conscripted into a mandatory national organization is the most baseless. People who actively resisted were sent to camps. Some were executed outright. If the Nazis thought that his parents had supported any active resistance moment or fostered it THEY would of been sent off to camps as well.

Sure is damn easy from 60 years in the future to criticize adolescents for not single handily taking on a totalitarian police state.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-04-23-new-pope-defied-Nazis_x.htm

Renate Augerer, 75, remembered the brothers from the town's school, where they were both known as being serious, scholarly, pious and kind — two Catholic priests in the making.

"He was very certainly not for Hitler," Augerer said of Joseph Ratzinger. "Absolutely not. They couldn't do anything about it. ... You can't forget the times."

Max Fiedler, 77, said he also was compelled to join the Hitler Youth when the Nazis took over the Catholic youth group he was in and merged it into their organization.

"It was automatic," said Fiedler, who had joined Augerer at a reception in the small Traunstein town hall following a Mass in Ratzinger's honor last week.

Some 80 to 90% of Germans joined the Hitler Youth and refusing to sign up could mean being sent to a youth "reeducation camp," akin to a concentration camp, said Volker Dahm, director of Nazi-era research for Munich's Institute for Contemporary History.

"You could try to avoid it but it was very, very difficult," Dahm said. "It was a bit easier to avoid it if you lived in a big city where you could hide yourself in the crowd, but in the countryside it was nearly impossible because everyone knew you."

...

In Germany, opportunities for outright defiance were limited — and dangerous. Those who did resist met horrible fates, such as two famous student leaders in Munich, Hans and Sophie Scholl, who were caught distributing anti-Nazi leaflets in 1942 and executed by guillotine.

[struggle4progress]

136. I think it is very easy to sneer at people in a time and place

that are separated from you by seven decades and a major ocean

What do you really know about the Nazi period? I once knew a man, of approximately Ratzinger's age, who grew up in Germany then; he's been dead for about five years now, but when he was a teenager he distributed communist literature in the country, which was actually a very dangerous thing to do after Hitler came to power, since almost immediately in 1933 the Nazis suspended all civil liberties, bugged phones, intercepted mail, arrested and/or beat the crap out of and/or killed anyone who visibly opposed them. Eventually, his mother found some illegal pamphlets in his sock drawer, and (good numbskull patriot that she was) told him she was going to turn him into the Gestapo for a good talking-to; she didn't know the score at all; he did, and so he ran away from home and fled the country at about age fifteen. About thirty years ago, I made some off-hand comment to him about it being inconceivable to me that the Germans hadn't shown more spine resisting Hitler. Well, the reaction was approximately as if I'd picked my nose and then offered him my hand to shake, without even bothering to wipe it off first. He explained with considerable irritation, and in great detail, without any pleasantness at all, exactly how the Nazis systematically terrified people into compliance. He had really put his young life on the line in that era, but he had the insight and decency to understand what other people experienced and why they reacted as they did. It was a dreadful time and place: your sneers are cheap and easy

[Arugula Latte]

139. It seems like you are fine with the pope sneering at people who don't share his mythology.

[Rex]

11. Amazing, the way this guy lies and makes shit up...MUST be a Repuke!

How did they go from JP II, to this guy!? Did Cheney pick him out?

[edhopper]

14. JPII

promoted mostly very conservative priests to be cardinals, this assfuck's election was the result.
It was an inevitable result of JPII's actions.

[Rex]

33. I did not know that, thank you for the information.

Wow, I wonder if he knew he was promoting such a vile man?

[Arugula Latte]

54. I despise the free pass that JPII got

He did a lot of damage and turned back the clock even further on the Catholic Church.

No wonder they have trouble getting enough asses in their pews these days.

[edhopper]

60. JPII was the churches Ronald Reagan

Benny is their GWB. His will made whole.

[SidDithers]

13. Happy to K&R...

Thanks for posting.

Sid

[Kolesar]

16. I expect to be unfriended by some of my homies on Facebook for putting this up on my home page

I came from a very Catholic town.

"It was the coastal town, that they forgot to bomb" -- Morrisey

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. And this comes from the Hitler Youth...

m'kay...

Dawkins is damn correct. Also the official church standing was of appeasement.

[DireStrike]

19. Lol pope ratzi the nazi

good trolling, mister pope.

[phasma ex machina]

20. Godwin's Law needs a corollary along the lines of Nazism being the world's oldest troll

this side of WWII.

[lolly]

22. This has been the standard line of thought for a while

Even before Pope Rat.

I have had students who believed that the Nazis were at war against religion, not necessary against Jews. Jews were just, apparently, the most obviously religious people, so they were the majority of victims.

In this formulation, Christianity becomes a victim of the Holocaust, and claims the mantle of martyrdom as a whole.

This is standard teaching in many high schools affiliated with Christian religions.

[Fool Count]

62. If there ever was the most secular and non-religious group of people in the

pre-WWII Europe, that was, probably, the German Jews.

[lolly]

67. Oh, I wouldn't disagree

They were certainly very highly assimilated in German society.

I'm just saying--that's the way it's taught in Christian schools.

I had a student who argued that Eli Wiesel's "Night" (which had been part of his h.s. curriculum) explained how the Holocaust was all an attempt to get the Jews to give up religion, and how Wiesel survived by keeping his faith.

I had never read "Night," so I did after hearing that. I would say you'd have to cherry-pick and ignore a good part of the book (not to mention all the rest of Nazi ideology and practice) to come away with that message.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. I think Dawkins shouldn't have been as restrained.

He should have been more blunt.

Yes, I say that with a humorous spin, but it's 100% true.

[struggle4progress]

24. Dawkins, born in Kenya in 1941, had no experience of and has no real memory of the Nazi period

The Pope came of age in Nazi Germany, turning 18 about the time WWII ended. It was a horrid and tragic time and place, and it has left great festering wounds and ugly scars across Western civilization and the rest of the world.

People attempt to understand their experiences using whatever resources are available to them, and of course the Pope is no exception to that rule. It is often true that people misunderstand essential aspects of their experience, or do not analyze them well, and it is perhaps possible that the Pope has not grasped some features of the Nazi era, but he did live through it and he did experience it, and his comments are based on his effort to assimilate and understand that dreadful time. Dawkins comments, on the other hand, seem to be his usual abstract sneers at people who had experiences he did not have and whose lives he does not care to understand

[edhopper]

25. That is the most piss ant excuse for

a vile comment as I have heard. It was the Pope who called atheists like Dawkins Nazis. Where is there any corollary today amoung the atheist writings like Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris that have any analogy with Nazism.
I can see many corollaries with our Religious right today with them though.
This was an inexcusable and completely incorrect statement by the Pope.

I have no "direct" experience of the Nazis either. But the thing is my Father and Grandparents escaped Germany in '36 where the Christians were turning in Jews.
So I think that might qualify me to tell the Pope to go fuck himself.

[struggle4progress]

32. Do forgive me if I missed any actual mention of Dawkins by the Pope. Perhaps you could give a link?

The Nazi program was to control all aspects of society and to convert existing institutions and traditions to Nazi aims. In the first few years after the seizure of power, they attempted a direct take-over of the churches in the Kirchenkampf period; this was only partly successful, and led to a revision of their strategy. By 1945, they were producing Nazi bibles that eliminated any references to anything Judaic and which modified (for example) the ten commandments to include fealty to the Fuhrer

Kirchenkampf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf

Susannah Heschel on the Nazi Church
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=112061&mesg_id=112061

"Wie wir Weihnachten feiern" (Wilhelm Beilstein | N.S.-Briefe | December 1939)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=259780&mesg_id=260024

The Pope's notion that the Nazis were anti-religious is, in fact, grounded in historical fact

[edhopper]

35. Wha? ah? which?

Wasn't I responding to your post that starts with comparing Dawkins to the Pope?
Are we going to play that the Pope was not specifically talking about Dawkins, Hitchens et al.
Really?

[Confusious]

42. Are you playing?

Dawkins is an atheist. The pope mentioned athetists. Hitler was roman catholic, and influnced by anti-Semitic catholic priests.

Though he may have tried to take over the church, that does not mean he was any sort of atheist.

"Was Jesus a Nazi? During the Third Reich, German Protestant theologians, motivated by racism and tapping into traditional Christian anti-Semitism, redefined Jesus as an Aryan and Christianity as a religion at war with Judaism. In 1939, these theologians established the Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Religious Life. In The Aryan Jesus, Susannah Heschel shows that during the Third Reich, the Institute became the most important propaganda organ of German Protestantism, exerting a widespread influence and producing a nazified Christianity that placed anti-Semitism at its theological center."

Even if they removed references to jews, it was still a Christan church.

revisionist history bullshit.

[whosinpower]

44. Perverting an existing religion is not anti religious

It is simply a perversion. Hitler himself often stated he was doing God's work in regards to his anti-semitic goals. He considered himself a christian - a catholic. He tried to bend the will of the church to his own end and foster a new faith within the Nazi ideology....but it is still faith - even if it is a perversion of the original.

Stalin, on the other hand - WAS anti-religious.

[AlbertCat]

117. By 1945, they were producing Nazi bibles

Well! That certainly proves they were atheists! :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[struggle4progress]

137. You don't read very well, do you?

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. And there were also many Christians who sheltered Jews and built and

maintained escape routes for them. And many who died for doing so.

[liberation]

89. So? There were plenty of atheist who helped Jews who were being prosecuted by the CHRISTIAN majority

Yeah, too bad the whole anti-semitism in Germany at the time could be directly traced to Luther and his open anti-semite writings, and the Catholic church's policies and myth regarding "the bad Jew" that had been de facto dogma for hundreds of years.

Funny, when a Christian does something decent... it is used to name that action as a characteristic of the norm for the whole Christian faith. However, whenever large groups of Christians do some very very very wicked things, it is always considered an exception easily dismissible.

[kenfrequed]

112. Yeah, true.

Luther actually wrote against existing Catholic anti-semitism earlier becoming virulently antisemetic later in life.

The passion plays were indicative of Catholic Anti-semeitism that was around before Luther.

[COLGATE4]

99. I think stating that there were "many" really overstates the

facts. While there were undoubtedly some decent Germans who sheltered Jews, they were an extremely small minority.

[hobbit709]

26. I guess these photos are exampless of godless nazism

http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

[struggle4progress]

64. I'm not really sure why you think a few snapshots can substitute for

a methodical attempt to understand what actually happened in Nazi Germany

The Nazis were quite serious about controlling Germany completely, and they were methodical and dishonest in their propaganda, which was mass produced using every available industrial technique: radio, movies, print ...

Within a few months of coming to power, they were physically beating the crap out of opponents, imprisoning or simply disappearing opponents, murdering opponents, taking control of existing organizations of every kind, outlawing opposing political parties, seizing and shutting down the opposition press -- all the while stupefying people with their lies

I suppose that any of those artefacts, that you point to, might be the subject of an interesting discussion, but I should think the interesting discussion would be the interplay between the German culture of the time and the Nazi propaganda

[lolly]

68. Being serious about controlling Germany

Is not the same thing as being an atheist.

The right wing Christians in the US are very serious about trying to control the US--government, schools, private life, military--everything.

They are also not atheists.

The pope equated Nazism with atheism, and warned that godlessness would bring about a new nazi era.

The pictures (not to mention the "Gott mit uns" slogan of the SS) do show that Nazis were not an atheist movement.

[hobbit709]

84. No different than the ones using god today in the same way.

As my mother says "The Nazis had nothing on the propaganda Americans are fed today by the media and the schools"

If you want to get into a discussion about the Nazis, I'll give you my mother's phone number, she'll be glad to tell you all about living under that regime.

[AlbertCat]

119. The Nazis were quite serious about controlling Germany completely,

That's all very interesting, but the definition of "atheist" is not "Someone who tries to control Germany completely"

[Nevernose]

27. Take your last sentnce.

Take your last sentence and replace "Dawkins" with "The Pope" and see if it is still an accurate statement. Just for shits and giggles.

"He was alive at the time" is a pretty weak argument, by the way, nor does it make anything he said accurate.

[mitchum]

29. To hell with that apologist vomit you just puked out

[COLGATE4]

100. + 1

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. WHERE'S HIS BIRTH CETIFICATE????

[Fumesucker]

31. Gott Mit Uns is German for God Is With Us..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Der Popenfuhrer, on the other hand, knows all sorts of thigns about Nazis.

The fucker was one.

[eridani]

57. Benny the Rat is flat out lying

I appreciate that joining Hitler Youth was required, but I don't see how he could have missed the Gott Mit Uns on all the Nazi soldiers' belt buckles.

[Chef Eric]

83. Your post is one of the strangest things I've ever read on DU.

How can you use the fact that the Pope "lived through the era" as an excuse for what he said? Can't you see that such an argument does not make any sense? The Nazis "lived through the era" too. Do you wish to excuse all of the offensive things that the Nazis said about Jews?

Are you so incapable of empathy, that you cannot understand how the Pope's comments are offensive toward atheists? Why do you seek to excuse or justify such offensive comments?

[struggle4progress]

138. You find it strange because it does not reflect your own prejudices.

If you are interested in real politics and real history, then you ought to pay attention to real people and how they understand and deal with their actual experiences. You want to lecture me about empathy, but apparently you have no real understanding of the times and places that shaped Benedict's or Dawkins' views

The trajectories are quite different

Dawkins is a product of the British empire: his first years were spent in Kenya colony, where his colonial parents are part of the "superior" British apparatus that dominated (and stole the land from) the "inferior" native population. When Dawkins is eight, he is bundled back to the British Isles, I should guess because the long-term colonial situation in Kenya is beginning to seem unsettled and uncertain as local unhappiness with British rule grows. Dawkins then receives a standard privileged upperclass education

Nazi Germany, where Benedict grew up, was a fearful place; beginning rather soon after the Nazis came to power, you could be imprisoned arbitrarily; if you were beaten to death for refusing to give the stiff-arm salute, there were no consequences for your murderers; you could be guillotined ("treason") for opposing the regime in any way. The Nazis intended to eliminate the churches entirely, though they concentrated on eliminating Judaism first; during the kirchenkampf period, they were fairly brazen about trying to seize direct seizure of control of the churches, placing swastikas on altars and so on, though the political backlash forced them to moderate such efforts and rely on other means. Benedict's views are a product of that time and place. When Benedict was eight, the Nazis were still consolidating power, but they had effectively smashed the Catholic parties and were smashing the Catholic youth organizations. Benedict at the end of his childhood is drafted into the army as the Reich finally begins to disintegrate

So Dawkins was raised with, and adopted as his own without much question, the sense of superiority to everyone that distinguishes colonial masters from their subjects, and that haughtiness remains with him until today. Benedict, similarly, is shaped by the dreadful society which he experienced

[Chef Eric]

140. Congratulations, you've managed to top yourself.

But please, go ahead and continue to defend Pope Benedict, poor Pope Benedict, because he had it so difficult as a young Catholic boy during the Nazi era. Somehow, however, I don't think he had it as bad as the members of my father's family, who were starved and worked to death.

And if you want to keep on ranting about Richard Dawkins, knock yourself out. Maybe that's what you need to do in order to distract yourself from the real problem here, which is the Pope's offensive comments toward atheists.

[liberation]

90. Yeah, nice red herring...

... too bad it has nothing to do with the matter at hand.


I was born decades after WWII ended, and yet I can still read history books and get a basic fucking understanding about what went on. I know for example, that the nazis were not a nice bunch. Thus, for this pope who actually belonged to that group of degenerates to say anything regarding the association of atheism with the workings of nazism takes a magnificently huge set of brass balls.

[Enthusiast]

95. Minus one....nt

[trotsky]

142. Some of your posts make me want to puke.

This is definitely one of them. Have you no shame?

[mitchum]

28. Dawkins calls out Nazi Douchebag

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. Being baptised a Catholic no more makes you a Catholic, than baptism makes you a Christian.

Hitler's actions and those of his Nazis tell the story. He was a double-dyed atheist. Do you think Stalin was a Russian Orthodox because he had tried to join the priesthood?

There was a scandalously wicked dimension, by no means inconsiderable, to the institutional, Tridentine Catholic Church, notably under Pius XII, imo. The immensely heroic, Austrian farm-worker, Franz Jagerstetter, a husband and father of two young daughters, was guillotined for refusing to keep quiet about the evils of Hitler's Nazi regime, while his local bishop and collaborator accused him of being 'proud'!

However, the photos above don't tell the true story by any stretch of the imagination. Hitler knew the power of the Church, as he did the reputation of Bismark, who despised him, but he courted them both, for as long as he felt he needed to. In fact, Christian clergymen and trade-unionists were executed in large numbers for opposing Hitler and his Nazis. More Catholics than any other denomination. (Read the post on the subject in Guardian Comment). Not that, given the nature of mankind, and indeed, the institutional, Tridentine Church, there would not have been individuals such as that bishop at all levels.

Benedict was absolutely right about atheism. At best, it affords no protection against tyrrany, and while the Catholic Church's record has not been spotless by any means at the political level against right-wing tyrranies, only the Christian Church will prevent the ever-growing tyranny of secular goverments.

The Catholic Church does share one thing in common with the such totalitarian regimes as the Nazis, and that is that, unlike the latter, due to the status accorded the priesthood (in Judaism and the early Church, they were simply 'elders' - a difference in seniority rather than a separate caste), while the Catholic Church attracts people of the most heroic generosity and courage, as well as most the rest of us, it also acts as an extraordinarily powerful magnet to narcissistic power-lovers, pretty much devils incarnate. They might in different circumstances, have been torturers in Gestapo headquarters. Or even Abu Ghraib.

[Kolesar]

38. This pope is trying to group Nazism in with Stalinist atheism and it does not work

Simple propaganda like this probably works with the poorly-read who don't know the difference.

The Spanish Civil War was promoted as being virtuous and religious by its fascist leaders with backing by the German Nazis. The Socialists were labeld by the Fascists as athiest, indulgent, irreligious homosexuals.

Google Federico Lorca

[Joe Chi Minh]

39. Of course, it does. Do you think either regime was Christian? If you think that

Lorca won't be able to help you.

[Fumesucker]

47. Gott Mit Uns is German for God Is With Us..

[MattBaggins]

49. Yes the Third Reich was at least a defacto Chistian Regime

It was not based on Atheism or Secularism.

[COLGATE4]

115. No, the idea was to move Germany to a modern form of

Paganism. Himmler devoted huge resources, along with Goebbels to persuade the masses that they were "Aryans", inheritors of the mystic German knights of old, with all allegiance being due the Fuhrer.

[liberation]

93. Ironic that Lorca was executed for being among other things: intellectual, atheist, and homosexual

By... and this is where it sort of helps: THE FASCIST regime in Spain, who like their brethren in Italy, happened to be ultra CATHOLIC. BTW, during the Spanish Civil war the fascist actually had German nazi divisions fighting with them, and Spain later sent troops to fight for nazi Germany during WWII.

[urgk]

102. Funny, they didn't sound atheist.

1. When we call for the unification of the Protestant Church, we do so because we do not see how, in a time when the whole Reich is unifying itself, twenty-eight Landeskirchen can persist.... In the interpretation of the Gospel one may hold the command of God higher than human commands. In the interpretation of political realities, we consider ourselves to be God's instrument.
-Joseph Goebbels, Hannover Kurier, 29 March 1935,


2. God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by God to save Germany.
-Hermann Göring (Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen," Berkley Books, 1990)

3. How shall I give expression, O my Führer, to what is in our hearts? How shall I find words to express your deeds? Has there ever been a mortal as beloved as you, my Führer? Was there ever belief as strong as the belief in your mission. You were sent us by God for Germany!
-Hermann Göring (Reden und Aufsatze, Munich, 1938)

4. No matter what human beings do I shall some day stand before the judgement seat of the Eternal. I shall answer to Him, and I know he will judge me innocent.
-Rudolf Hess, in a statement to the Nuremberg Tribunal, (Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen," Berkley Books, 1990)

5. May God save Germany!
-Joachim Ribbentrop, his last words before his hanging, (Hitler's Elite, Shocking Profiles of the Reich's Most Notorious Henchmen," Berkley Books, 1990)

[AlbertCat]

127. Do you think either regime was Christian?

Yes.... they both were.

[Zoeisright]

53. Exactly right.

It just blows my mind that people can't see that. The harm that organized religion has brought to the human race is incredible.

[Kolesar]

56. delete-wrong place

[Zoeisright]

55. Wow, what a stupid post. Organized religion was CREATED for tyranny.

Why don't you do a little reading yourself? The church promises 'heaven' as a carrot to the ignorant masses to forfeit any right to happiness or comfort in this life.

Most, if not all, atheists are thinkers and have excellent logical reasoning skills. Unlike the sheeple who follow anyone wearing a collar and carrying a cross. Shame on you.

[Kolesar]

58. Kings promote religion because the concept of divine right protects them

Were an individual or a group to depose him, they would risk the wrath of God.

There is a miniseries of documentaries by "The Center for Inquiry" that explored that. They are from Britain. I found a few segments on the internet, but not the whole series.

[tomp]

104. that is an overly broad statement about atheists. nt

[eridani]

61. When did Hitler ever formally espouse atheism?

You're using Benny the Rat's shitty logic. Being a ociopath = proves he is an atheist because I don't like them. If you want to judge societies by how most people in them behave, the least religious are the most moral. More social equality, less drug abuse and alcoholism, less teen pregnancy, lower abortion rates, lower overall crime rates.

[lolly]

70. When has Christianity prevented tyranny?

Of course, if you define tyranny as secularism, which it appears is what you do, then putting any old religion in charge will cure this "tyranny."

But secularism isn't tyranny. No matter how much people like Benny the Rat hate it when others don't agree with their religion, allowing people to choose not to be religious does not make a government tyrannical.

[blackspade]

73. Utter nonsense!!

Actually, this is total bullshit.

"Benedict was absolutely right about atheism. At best, it affords no protection against tyranny, and while the Catholic Church's record has not been spotless by any means at the political level against right-wing tyrannies, only the Christian Church will prevent the ever-growing tyranny of secular governments."

Actually the Catholic Church, as an institution, has been both an instrument and the purveyor of tyranny for centuries.
The same can not be said for 'atheism'.

[howard112211]

79. Hitler was no atheist. He believed in deity.

He believed he was chosen, and that it was his destiny to lead the germans.

[skepticscott]

91. You should be ashamed to knowingly spout such baloney

Hitler was a double-dyed atheist?? I'm guessing that would have been news to him

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/09/list_of_hitler_quotes_in_honor.php


"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936


"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."

Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 41


"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"

Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941


"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life...."

Adolf Hitler, Berlin, February 1, 1933



And dozens and dozens more at the link. Is there no limit to your BS and intellectual dishonesty?

[intaglio]

92. True, baptism means nothing,

but Hitler always emphasised his Christianity and the inspiration it gave him, check out "Mein Kampf" if you don't believe me. He also received support from the hierarchies of the Lutheran and Catholic churches, even though a few individual Lutherans and Catholics opposed Nazism.

You also make the ridiculous statement that Hitler's actions make him a double dyed atheist. This is ridiculous, was Tomas de Torquemada an atheist for the cruelties of the Inquisition? Was Charlemagne an atheist because of the hideous massacres and cruelties of his conquests? Was William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy, an atheist for the harrowing of the North or the coronation massacre? Other examples might include Richard I, the Lionheart; Vlad III, also called Tepes and Dracul; Ivan IV Vasilyevich, the Terrible.

You then support Pope Benedict in his unfounded belief that atheism offers no protection against tyranny whilst offering your own gloss that "... only the Christian Church will prevent the ever-growing tyranny of secular goverments (sic)". Firstly, atheism has never had the opportunity to offer such protection; and, secondly, the Christian Church was, and is, founded upon the idea that tyranny is a good thing. The foundation of "The Church" was formalised and encouraged by Constantine to demonstrate that the Byzantine Imperium was an earthly reflection of the heavenly order and that the Emperor was the earthly reflection of God. The Bishops of Rome much later chose to state that they,and not the Byzantine Emperor, were they were the earthly representatives of God. It might have escaped your notice that God is by definition a tyrant; He is the one arbiter and judge, the one ruler. There are no elections in Heaven, no appeals procedure, no written constitution; you either do what God says or go to be everlastingly tortured in Hell.

[Enthusiast]

96. Plus one! nt

[tomp]

105. plus two! nt

[COLGATE4]

116. Plus Three!!!

[AlbertCat]

122. He was a double-dyed atheist

You are double-dyed wrong.

And Stalin did not kill people in the name of atheism.

And the Catholics and Nazis share this in common: they killed millions who disagreed with them. As well as "infallible leaders". They share that too.

[AlbertCat]

125. ever-growing tyranny of secular goverments.

And how is that? What tyranny? America has had a secular government for 200 plus years. The tyrrany of Scandinavia?
How about the centuries of the tyranny of the Catholic Church?


Oh never mind. Don't think for yourself.... just do what your priest tells you....

[Generic Other]

43. Hitler sounds like every other rightwing fundie using religion to spout hate!

Hitler often associated atheism with Germany's communist enemy. Hitler stated in a speech to the Stuttgart February 15, 1933: "Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity...It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years."

In a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933, Hitler stated: "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement."

In a radio address October 14, 1933 Hitler stated "...we have been waging a heroic battle against...the decomposition of our culture, the subversion of our art, and the poisoning of our public morality. We have put an end to denial of God and abuse of religion."

In a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934 Hitler states: "The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views

[Canuckistanian]

46. Jesus wept.

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" -- Adolf Hitler

[WinkyDink]

59. I thought the upper echelon of Nazis were enamored of Norse myth.

[liberation]

97. Most of the Myth they were ever so enamoured of, esp. the whole Aryan nonsense...

... had long being morphed into a narrative that was no longer associated with pagan but a Christian angle.

We can see clear examples in our society right this very moment, technically, those trees with lights an sparkling crap Christians love to display during Christmas... are actually Northern European pagan fertility symbols in their origin. So in the minds of the nazi elite at the time, they saw that Norse myth as being also Christian in character. Yeah, it is obviously logically dissonant, but then again both myth and religion are basically based upon superstition, and a such they imply a certain level of suspension of thought and/or critical thinking (or at least common sense).

Heck, in fact most of the Christian celebrations or festivities were actually pagan rituals which were assimilated into the Christian dogma/tradition. A few saints actually, were never Christians, some of their personas and miracles were based in either real or mythological characters which were integral part of local folklore before Christianity was stablished in those regions.

[malaise]

63. Dawkins is brilliant

To mention Ratzinger’s membership of the Hitler Youth might be thought to be fighting dirty, but my feeling is that the gloves are off after this disgraceful paragraph by the pope.

Take that Popey!!

Bravo Richard Dawkins and yes BBC coverage was offensive.

[TexasObserver]

65. But the Pope doesn't seem to remember HE was a Nazi.

[JoeyT]

66. Indeed, the pope is correct.

In fact, here's a picture of Hitler meeting with Atheist priests.



And an atheist Arch-bishop, too.

[Warren DeMontague]

69. Yeah, but Richard Dawkins helped all those pedophiles escape prosecution, didn't he?

Oh, wait, that was the Pope, too.

[cartach]

74. And that's why I've thought all along

that you shouldn't put a Christian church anywhere near a Holocaust Museum. Isn't that right Newt?

[6000eliot]

76. How about tying the Catholic Church to the systematic abuse of children?

Fuck off, Pope shithead!

[saltpoint]

78. It would ve very instructive, IMO, to schedule a debate

between Dawkins and the Pope. Maybe a series of debates on a variety of topics.

It would be interesting to read more on analysis addressing the point at which megalomania dissolves religious identity.

Not qualified at all to say, but Hitler might be a very useful reference in that discussion.

[southmost]

81. Hang the pope!

well at least there's a song like that somewhere, so I heard...

[lostnfound]

87. I am really glad the pope made this statement.

Because this thread has been very eye-opening for me. You see, all my life I was grateful that the Catholic schools I attended carefully and extensively taught us the horrible fact of the Holocaust, exposed us to Anne Frank's story, taught us about the importance of standing up to evil in our society. They may have even taught us about 'Gott Min Uns', I can't recall where I learned it, but I certainly was aware of the beltbuckle slogan.

But somehow they forgot to mention that Hitler was a Catholic. I never knew that until I read it here on DU.
And although I'd heard occasionally (not in schoool) that 'the Church' "looked the other way", I certainly had never seen pictures of Catholic hierarchy shaking hands with the devil there or saluting in the Nazi salute. They certainly never breathed a word about that in my Catholic grade school. In fact, I was taught in Catholic grade school that 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, as well as large numbers (maybe a million?) Catholics. So all my life I have ASSUMED that Hitler was a Protestant (though obviously a very deformed one).

So I have to say thank you to this pope for opening my eyes about atheism, although not exactly in the way that he intended.

I enjoyed one of Dawkin's earliest science books decades ago, been meaning to pick up another. Seems like this is a good time now.

Ratzinger's statement really is so offensive for so many reasons.

I don't consider myself an atheist but I feel great affinity with and affection for atheists. For those who don't see the problem with Ratzinger's statement, imagine that he were laying the blame with 'Islam' rather than wth 'atheism', and see how offensive it would be. I think that such a statement wouldn't even be allowed on DU as it would be considered a bigoted slur. Trying to stir up hatred for atheists and atheism?? How primitive, how regressive, how unkind.

Here's how it would read if were slanted against Muslims rather than atheists:

**********WARNING: DISTORTED AND ALSO BIGOTED VERSION FOLLOWS: ************

“Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to institutionalize Islam in society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the Islamic extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the intertwining of the Islamic religion with public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny”

************WARNING: DISTORTED AND ALSO BIGOTED VERSION ABOVE********************

It would be a bigoted slur. "As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the twentieth century.." Nazis in one sentence and 'atheist extremism' in the next. What's so insidious is that the statements are not exactly factually false -- there was an example of 'atheist extremism' in the 20th century -- and there were Christiam pastors who opposed the Nazis -- but young people and forgetful or uneducated people hearing this will absorb as if facts that atheists were behind the Nazi slaughter and that Christians universally fought off the evil atheist Nazis -- which appears to be exactly the intent. It is insidious propaganda that feeds on the absence of logical thought.

Maybe he should have said "the handful of Christian pastors who opposed the Nazis..in spite of what the Church hierarchy was supporting..?" He can't really say 'the sobering lessons of political leaders who distort religion for their own power.." Rather, it is written in such a way as to allow people to infer that the Nazis were atheists and that Christian pastors as a whole were opposing the regime. Is that the kind of careful writing presented to me as a child, too, that left me with the impression that Catholicism's relationship to the Holocaust was that of victim (nearly a million dead Catholics) and at worse a failure of the hierarchy to actively oppose? Veritas indeed.

[Kolesar]

98. American currency said "In God We Trust", a century after we murdered the Plains Indians

Ok, that is a little different than putting God on our war uniforms.

Well written post, lostnfound, especially: "...people hearing this will absorb as if facts that atheists were behind the Nazi slaughter and that Christian"s universally fought off the evil atheist Nazis -- which appears to be exactly the intent.

Ratzinger's propaganda is very Bushian like the half-truths he told about WMDs to get America to attack and own Iraq.

[Enthusiast]

94. Richard Dawkins is right.

The pope is engaging in revisionist history.

[RainDog]

103. the pope is an odious cretin

his actions speak louder than his words.

[mmonk]

106. First, Hitler co-opted the thought process of Christian nation.

Secondly, both the Catholic and Lutheran Churches appeased the Hitler led government because they were felt if they did not, they would not survive. Hitler exploited the antisemitic tendencies of Christian Europe. The words "Gott Mit Uns" were generally associated with the German military since the days of Prussia and was a term associated with the Holy Roman Roman Empire. Later, the Nazis moved against the Catholic Churches shutting down schools, convents, and monasteries (some of it attributable to the Churches attempts to smuggle people predominantly Jewish and Gypsies out of harm's way). However, Hitler was largely successful because Germany was Christian, not atheist. So to blame the "godless" is disingenuous.

[fadedrose]

107. K

[Swagman]

108. not keen on the Pope ..but even less keen on Dawkins..a no-fun bore

[edhopper]

111. If you actually read Dawkins

in books like The God Delusion, you would find he is quite witty.

[RedCloud]

110. Where was this God while over 65,000,000 people died in WWII?

[saltpoint]

118. I've only seen Dawkins on a few cable programs and

never live, but he certainly strikes me as a keen mind.

My guess is that the Pope would be better off not responding to Dawkins, as Dawkins seems to be extremely well versed in Judeo-Christian tradition, without of course agreeing with much of its dogma.

Even with a translator I don't think Benedict is in Dawkins' league as a scholar. Just a hunch, but the impression lingers.

[AlbertCat]

132. but he certainly strikes me as a keen mind.

He is.

My favorite book of his is "Unweaving The Rainbow"

"The Blind Watchmaker" is also really good.

[saltpoint]

133. Hi, AlbertCat. I'll maybe give one of those a try...

and by the way, the Gauguin is effing awesome.

:thumbsup:

[old mark]

Adolf Hitler was born and raised Roman Catholic, Ratzo....and the Catholic Church aided

Nazis wanted as war criminals to escape Europe to South America, and not just a few of them, either.

Does he actually believe his own bullshit or is he trying to defuse the anger over religious rapists and turn it against the athiests?

The more I find out about this guy, the less I like him.

mark

[TACFIRE]

120. I am incandescent with rage

Hey...I really like RD - but does he have to use phrases that look like they were cribbed from the TV show "Big Band Theory?"
Shall we call him Sheldon now?

[bertman]

121. What's new? The pope is lying about something. Par for the course.

Doesn't one of the Ten Suggestions say something like "Thou shalt not bear false witness"?

Rec.

[SkyDaddy7]

124. Atheist are the Whipping Boys/Girls of the world!

In America most Christian hate, fear & mistrust Atheist even thought they have no other reason other than Atheist do not play make believe with them. Obviously the Pope feels the exact same way...Both make up lies & BULLSHIT to feel superior to people many of them do not even know who they are!

I listen to the Christian friends & Family I have who do not know I am an Atheist talk about Atheist as if they drink the blood of new borns! It is simply disgusting but it is the world we live in!

[Javaman]

126. I'm one of those "god-less heathens" and I could care less what the man in the pointy hat

thinks of me.

Actually, I find it kind of funny.

[OwnedByFerrets]

128. What an scourge upon mankind this so-called leader is.

I wish there was a HELL, just so he would burn in it for his hypocrisy.

[BrklynLiberal]

129. Dawkins is 100% right and I applaud him for speaking out on this.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ElQ6uj_xmu0/S9Sy1kugtwI/AAAAAAAABgI/SvLCNbWyuj4/s1600/Catholic+Bishops+giving+the+Nazi+salute+in+honor+of+Hitler.jpg





http://www.remnantofgod.org/NaziRCC.htm

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" -- Adolf Hitler

"Hitler was also ready to discuss with the Bishop his views on the Jewish question: "As for the Jews, I am just carrying on with the same policy which the Catholic church has adopted for fifteen hundred years, when it has regarded the Jews as dangerous and pushed them into ghettos etc., because it knew what the Jews were like. I don't put race above religion, but I do see the danger in the representatives of this race for Church and State, and perhaps I am doing Christianity a great service." -"The Nazi Persecution of the Churches" by J.S. Conway, Pgs. 25, 26 & 162.

NOTICE:
The only Nazi ever excommunicated by the church of Rome, even after all the war crime tribunals was Joseph Geobbles. His crime? He married a Protestant,

On EWTN's show the "Apologetics" it was stated on 06-18-10 @ 4:07pm EST the following.

"The pope didn't publicly denounce Hitler because if he did it would have driven Hitler to madness."

There are lots more pics of this ilk..but I am not going to waste any more time and space on this.

[and-justice-for-all]

134. It is a massive misconception that Hitler/Nazis were atheist..

Hitler was highly superstitious and thought of himself as a god, hitler could not have been further from being an atheist. This goes for Stalin and Pol Pot as well.

There as been more war and murder in the name of god than for any other reason.

[obxhead]

135. Funny. Hitler was raised as a Catholic and

the current Pope was Hitler youth.

he must have been looking in the mirror when he made his comments.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skepticscott]

143. And this is remotely relevant

to Ratzi's attempt to equate Nazism with atheism.....how?

And if you wish to slither away because your feewings have been hurt (or your apologetics eviscerated) by the "aggressive secularists", I fancy you and your BS won't be missed.

[trotsky]

144. So you're anti-atheist AND anti-gay.

Surprise, surprise. You and Pope Rat make a fine pair.