To Mock, or not to Mock?

[G_j]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9154915&mesg_id=9154915

So we are going to be in some tough fights everywhere, and all of you are going to be desperately needed in order for us to keep moving in a positive direction.

Now, the second reason I'm telling you this is because Democrats, just congenitally, tend to get -- to see the glass as half empty. (Laughter.) If we get an historic health care bill passed -- oh, well, the public option wasn’t there. If you get the financial reform bill passed -- then, well, I don't know about this particularly derivatives rule, I'm not sure that I'm satisfied with that. And gosh, we haven’t yet brought about world peace and -- (laughter.) I thought that was going to happen quicker. (Laughter.) You know who you are. (Laughter.)

[Name removed]

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[jefferson_dem]

3. Not mocking...

He was discussing the silly irationality of some "progressives" who feel compelled to find gloominess in every *progressive* policy advance....

...in encouraging unity of purpose, of course. :)

[EFerrari]

13. And what great timing that is. Maybe he can do a repeat "discussion"

on Election Day. I mean, if we really want to suppress our turn out, we should give it a shot on that very day. :sarcasm:

[jefferson_dem]

1. To push poll or to not push poll?

:shrug:

[G_j]

2. if you have other options

please suggest them. I tried to cover different points of view, and also included "other".

[jefferson_dem]

5. Well, I appreciate that there are relatively balanced response options.

I object to the way Obama's comments, as reported by the MSM, are glommed onto by serial critics of the administration (Hamsher, for example), for the purpose of ginning up conflict and division within the party.

Your DU poll is an extension of that (unconstructive) sentiment, in my opinion. If not, what is your purpose for posting it?

[G_j]

6. the exact Obama quote is above

If he hadn't said it, there would be no discussion.

My own feelings? I was a registered Conscientious Objector during the Vietnam war and have been a peace activist for my lifetime.
My gut reaction to his comments was very negative, and on deeper reflection I do feel he was mocking us.
I am interested in what others think.

[jefferson_dem]

7. Fair enough. n/t

[DirkGently]

31. Therefore, this was misstep on his part. Your reaction as a Democrat IS sufficient proof of that

You can't "mock" people into supporting you, any more than you can, say, bomb Iraq into becoming a Western Democracy. We have got to be smarter than this. I keep hoping Obama will be. Perhaps he's getting bad advice.

[G_j]

37. well said

He certainly knows that the peace movement has struggled (to say the least) with his military policies. We don't approve of drone attacks etc.
His comment and the resulting laughter felt like having salt rubbed in a wound. Of course they all know world peace will not happen, no thanks in part to the MIC and major weapons sales across the globe.

[walldude]

10. "For the purpose of"....

really? You think this is a conspiracy? That people who criticize aren't doing it because they have something to complain about, but because they have an agenda? To "gin up conflict and division"? Really? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[KittyWampus]

21. And you don't think there are losers with nothing to do but stir shit up? Greenwald makes a living

doing just that. And he knows there's an audience for it.

Apparently you don't know what Ratfucking is.

Republicans play a lot of the Reactionary Screamers on the Left for fools constantly.

[G_j]

25. as I said somewhere else, without Obama's comments

this conversation would not be happening. I didn't need anyone to tell me to be offended, I just was.

[SidDithers]

38. If it hadn't been this comment about this topic...

it would have been another comment about another topic. People like Greenwald, Hamsher, and the rest of the perpetually aggrieved will always find something to be angry about.

Sid

[walldude]

50. Really, Greenwald is just stirring shit up?

Yeah I'm sure he's doing it just to make sure Republicans get elected, he's such a conservative asshole....


You people need new hats.

[jefferson_dem]

52. Not necessarily a conspiracy.

Sure, some of these serial critics think they have something to complain about. Just as teabaggers do. But, like the teabaggers, they are motivated to express their discontent by other reasons. If you need that explained to you ... you've been too busy rolling on the floor laughing out loud and not enough time paying attention to reality.

[Name removed]

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[old mark]

4. Other-I think he was trying to kid us a little, which might have been appropriate

immediately after WE WORKED TO GET HIM ELECTED, but not such a great idea after we have come to understand how conservative his policies are. I think this shows the same bad judgement that has been displayed by several members of this administration.
I think this administration has pretty consistantly mocked the Democratic Left, and yeah, man, I DO know who I am.

I'm not so sure who YOU are.

mark

[ibegurpard]

8. He was letting the people that truly count know where his loyalties lie

[comtec]

14. so we don't count? nt

[Fumesucker]

16. Do you have a spare $30,000 for a dinner?

If not then you don't count..

[comtec]

18. I really wish i had a comeback... But you are exactly on the money! n/t

[SidDithers]

23. Right. 'Cause those are the only people Obama ever speaks to...

he never, ever talks to people who haven't paid $30,000 for a ticket. :eyes:

Sid

[Fumesucker]

30. It's not who he speaks to that count..

It's who he listens to..

Does the name Tim Geithner ring a bell with you?

[mdmc]

33. 1

[G_j]

9. --

[EFerrari]

11. Whatever it is, can it stop until the second week in November?

Geeze.

[SidDithers]

12. Those mocked deserved to be mocked...

You know who you are.

Sid

[whatchamacallit]

15. You inspire me to

:beer:

[SidDithers]

24. Really? Did you think that I or Obama was talking about you?...nt

Sid

[whatchamacallit]

27. I'm curious, who do you think he was talking about?

I can better answer your question once I know.

[SidDithers]

35. People like Greenwald, Hamsher and Green...

professionals who are nothing but endlessly critical of Obama, without, for a second, recognizing either the progress that has been made or the opposition to progress that exists in the Republicans.

He, and I most, certainly weren't talking about anonymous, largely irrelevant, individual posters at DU.

Sid

[whatchamacallit]

36. Fair enough

I withdraw my puking smiley... for now ;)

[HughMoran]

17. The dog that yelps is the one that was hit

So, that's settled. Nice push-poll BTW. :thumbsdown:

[Scurrilous]

45. LOL

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

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[HughMoran]

49. Welcome to DU!!!!!!!!!!

Hope you're having a good time!

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

19. Pathetic, the shit-stirring was exposed and the reactionary screamers can't handle it.

[DirkGently]

32. That perfectly describes the hysterical attack on the Greenwald piece.

[HughMoran]

41. Greenwald is a one-note angry dude

who writes the same shit over and over again, then wonders why people tire of it.

[HughMoran]

39. & the "I can criticize, but don't dare question MY intentions" cycle continues

You wanna come to a Dem board and bash Dems, don't be surprised if we criticize you. Heck, maybe even the President is sick of this fucking shit.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. *Shrug*. Obama is a typical politics-as-usual politician distancing himself from the left.

[MrScorpio]

22. Obviously, some of us can't take a joke. nt

[Luminous Animal]

34. Oh sure, I'd be laughing too if I could afford a $30,000 dinner.

And by implication, $20-30 thousand a year for health insurance and loose regulation on my investments and know that my children won't need to join the military for an education.

[Iggo]

26. Mocking.

And I'm over it.

[ZombieHorde]

28. Other, I don't really know, but a pattern seems to be developing. nt

[DirkGently]

29. Mocking's great. When it rings true. This comes off as defensive denial of reality.

Continuing to try to push this message that no promises were broken, no fights abandoned, and that anyone who says otherwise is on drugs just looks silly and further solidifies the same resentments.

[ibegurpard]

40. agreed

[HughMoran]

42. Obama is 110% accurate and I'd be happy if he said this sort of thing daily

I'm sick to death of the "I can criticize all I want, and don't you DARE criticize me in return"

It's childish and small-minded and hundreds of us here are sick to death of the stupidity.








(edit - typo)

[Luminous Animal]

63. And conversely, is Obama being childish for criticizing his critics?

Obama has the CIA, the NSA, Homeland Security, the DNC, the DLC, and unlimited access to the media to take down his critics. We've got the freedom of the internet to call him an asshole. Not one person here has claimed that Obama does not have the right to mock us. We are saying he is a piece of shit for mocking us.

[DirkGently]

68. Perhaps we could all agree that it's substance-free criticism that's childish?

... but that would eliminate all of the attacks on the Greenwald piece I've seen here.

[Name removed]

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[DireStrike]

44. He was intentionally mocking his critics, and unintentionally mocked peace activists.

The first jab comes from comparing the public option and derivatives reform to world peace, which are immensely different in terms of the difficulty in attaining them. This is his attack on his critics. It couches the assumption that getting a public option or derivatives reform would have been as difficult and impossible as achieving world peace.

If Obama really believes that, then his comment makes perfect sense. It would make no sense to attack him for not achieving those things. Of course, Obama can't possibly believe that. He knows that he didn't even try to get either of those things, and he knows that the criticism is valid. Any amount of hyperbole on his part is simply ridiculous. He's just pretending it isn't so he can make his rich audience feel good about being conservative (read: selfish.)

By placing world peace as the unattainable goal to compare the others to, he ridicules it as unrealistic. This could be perceived by peace activists as mocking. Personally I don't see it as mocking, and certainly not intentionally so.

[G_j]

48. interesting take

some very compelling insights there.. thanks for contributing.

[NYCGirl]

51. It's called a joke, folks. And if you can't take a joke, you

might as well just give it up. Jeez, those of you who have your panties in a wad about this — get over yourselves, please.

[walldude]

53. This is the third joke is as many months...

Tell me, why? Why do they keep making "jokes" that they know insult many of their voters? Can you explain? Can you tell me why they keep doing it? Can you give me a legitimate reason why Obama would feel the need to make this "little joke" after the way Gibbs and Rahm's "jokes" were received?

I just can't understand it, and frankly that is what makes me angry. Nothing good can come from comments like this, and I for the life of me can't understand why they would keep making them.

[NYCGirl]

54. You do realize that the President jokes about BOTH sides,

right? It's only an insult to those who can't take a joke. Gibbs' and Emanuel's were not "jokes," they were simply statements, misguided perhaps, but made out of frustration.

[HughMoran]

55. I understand it completely

& it makes me happy. Guess it depends who ox is being gored.

[G_j]

56. that says a lot

:think:

[HughMoran]

57. that certainly goes both ways

Trust me, the feeling is mutual.

:crazy:

[L0oniX]

58. This poll and op is divisionary ...I am surprised it isn't locked by now. IBTL

:popcorn:

[coti]

59. He wasn't mocking- he was distorting progressive arguments, shooting down straw men and misdirecting

nt

[derby378]

60. Tim Kaine has already said it...

"Change You Can Believe In" has been cast aside in favor of "Change That Matters." Matters, that is, to corporatists who want to tighten their grip on Capitol Hill and the Democratic Party.

[Time for change]

61. I feel that he was mocking those who believe that his performance has been unsatisfactory

That would be mostly liberals/progressives who are paying close attention to the wide disparity between his campaign promises and what he's delivered. Those who are very upset about the fact that in this time of severe economic crisis he is surrounded by economic advisors who are all very Wall Street friendly. Perhaps the belief among these advisors (Summers, Geithner, Rubin, to name a few), to be charitable, is that if economic policies are devised according to the desires of Wall Street, the pie will grow bigger and trickle down to the rest of us.

Perhaps one could consider this type of speech as defensive rather than mocking, but actually I think it's a blend of both together... and after all, that's often the purpose of mocking -- to defend oneself against criticism or implied criticism.

[TexasObserver]

62. His problem is Republicans, not Democrats. He's scapegoating liberals.

Again.

He doesn't understand the advice to "dance with who brung you."

[NYCGirl]

64. Yes, like he never makes jokes about Republicans.

:eyes:

[TexasObserver]

66. He and his staff have made numerous ugly comments about liberals.

If you can't see that, look again.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

65. I believe my friend Lily said it best --

"Mama didn't raise me stupid."

My ears are positively ringing with all that whistling.

[PBS Poll-435]

67. FFS

Thicker skin, people.

[blindpig]

69. Dismissive mockery,

now shut up and vote.

[closeupready]

70. Not "mocking", but he was poking fun at perfectionists in the party.

And I don't mean that dismissively - I'm the biggest perfectionist there is.

I mean, he was saying something that Eleanor Roosevelt once said, and I recall that it was essentially the same thing, that liberals are never happy, no matter what they achieve.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. Congenital half-emptiness?

I'll have to admit that that is a new tack.





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