Witches have feelings too

[Hestia]

So, it appears that it is the Witches and Pagans turn to be noticed - not all attention is good attention. Pagan is the umbrella name for all paths
that are Wiccan, Western Mystery Tradition, Witchcraft, Asatru, etc. It's the one identifier that we can all agree on and we don't agree on anything.

One thing I want to do is snip in the bud the notion it is okay to make fun of witches because one person "dabbled" in it. One thing I will say, all
this negative she is getting is reflective of "dabbling" and how it can bite you in the butt.

We are not a religion, we have no dogma, and have a great sense of personal responsbility. Path fits better.

I know many on this board are atheist or agnostic, but that still doesn't give anyone the right to laugh and point fingers at our spiritual path.
One question that many are asked, "why would pick a religion that no one understands or is scared of?" Not unlike being gay, it's something you
are born with and can never really discuss with those who aren't Pagan. Imagine being a child who reads a lot, has a whole different of how deity
should be portrayed and told to grow out of it, as if a spiritual path is a buffet line, that you pick and choose at random? This path picks you and
sometimes is a hard mantle to wear. Imagine never being able to say what you belive when asked. To keep your job, you lie or hem and haw, and
quickly change the subject.

Christine McConnell just set us back decades. A lot of us lived though the pre-Bush years when Trent Lott, Newt Gingrich, and George Bush tried
everything in their power to strip us of our Constititutional right of practicing our path any which way we choose. Websites were developed at
this time, that are still alive and well, to keep us apprised of those who know nothing of true spiritual rights of our citizenry. Very few
"outsiders" aren't aware of this history. You had/have no skin in the game, so why should you? We remember very well those years and I am
wincing now from the very same comments and laughter on this board today from the very same people who would never use the "N" word, but think
nothing of making fun of me and mine.

This is not a conversion discussion but to let you know we are very real and take our spiritual practices seriously. The one thing that
no one has ever really figured out, is just how many of us are out here. I read a scholarly post back in 1999 that said, based on sales and
websites, and very good filtering, that at that time 13,000,000 Pagans existed. Just think of the number now.

As I stated in another thread, maybe it is a good thing that we are noticed. Maybe then we can be treated as full citizens, with the same religious
rights as everyone else. Maybe it is time that we do stand up. But then there are the those who's outer wear makes our inner path look trite. The
Buffy-ites and Charmers, who read one book and exclaim, I Am A Witch! Nothing in life is every that easy. It takes time and personal dedication
and lots of reading and research and all the things that anyone who trains, whether in athletics or science, does. There is no such thing as an
Insta-Witch.

I feel like a whiner and saying "but what about us?" As stated before, if it hadn't been for the late 1990s, I never would have said anything and
just brushed it off as business as usual, as always. This time it needs to be said, that we aren't today's laughing stock or news byte. We have feelings too
you know. :)

Many Blessings and Peace,

Hestia

[texanwitch]

1. I hate the way the word witch is used instead of bitch.

There are many ways to be a witch, not just one path.

I like your post.

[bobbolink]

3. Thank you--that is what I was going to say. I always correct people when they say that.

It is a reflection of just how ignorant this culture truly is.

[Hestia]

28. I just smile and say, "that's the best you can come up with?"

[hlthe2b]

2. It reflects our collective ignorance and I'm sorry Hestia....

But, I'm gonna ask that you not take it too personally in this case (maybe take this one for the 'team')... While the reaction is based on stereotypes and blatant ignorance, the fact that it will drive the hypocritical "religious" RW crazy, some good may come from it. ;)

[bobbolink]

4. I disagree. We don't need to "take" ignorance... we need the courage to speak out.

Yes, we take the slings and arrows as a result, but it is the only way that change every happens.

I thank Hestia for her/his courage.

[hlthe2b]

6. You won't even get the chance on this issue...

No one is going to listen to complaints about the stereotyping of Wicca or witches. Just bringing it up NOW, in the context of what is already a ridiculous and sensationalized Senatorial campaign, will cause the complaint to be buried or simply the focus of ridicule. We'll do far better fighting that fight over issues that really matter (like the attempts to refuse Wiccan burials).

[bobbolink]

17. You have your opinion, and I have mine. I have been shut up too often.... I no longer care what

others say about it.

It is never "the right time" for any issue of civil rights and respect.

NEVER.

[Jamastiene]

42. Well said n/t

[bobbolink]

44. ..

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :bounce::hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[Hestia]

27. Great good has already come of it today and I am glad to take one. I'll gladly do it again!

[texastoast]

5. Well said!

People don't understand that you are born to it. Mainstream America understood when someone was "called" to preach, to teach, to heal. The same happens to witches, and most witches I know learned of their calling at a very young age and became masters of negotiation in our culture.

You know, when the wall of separation of church and state really falls, maybe witches will get their day to lead the prayers in Texas schools. We could have Muslim Mondays, Buddhist Tuesdays, Wiccan Wednesdays, Atheist Thursdays, and Christian Fridays.

;-)

[FirstLight]

13. +1000!

...don't forget Shamanic Saturdays! ;)

[Hestia]

25. We can always dream "why not" - that would be real religious diversity.

Years ago in The Green Egg, there was an article that addressed that. "Yvonne, since it Voudon Friday, you get to sacrifice the chicken." "Johnnie, Christianity doesn't come up until the 18th, so you'll have to wait to preach." I'll have to find it - the cartoon was priceless. Figure out some way to scan it in and ask permission of the Zell's.

[Hekate]

29. self-delete -- wrong place

[LibertyLover]

47. I remember that article well

and with great fondness. It was a hoot. I do have one minor problem with your otherwise excellent post and that is that we are not a religion. I would beg to differ. But that's one of the best things both with being Pagan (in my case an eclectic Wiccan) and being American - we can differ on details but agree on the major points. Excellent post. Thank you.

[Hestia]

26. Yes, it is something that is within, and I personally feel that it makes itself

know at a young age. It was easier for me because I had books to help me express my feelings, but for a child that doesn't, how odd they must feel. My mother had issues with it and I told her, if you give books to a child, you've given over control of what they read. She really freaked out when I ordered tarot cards when I was 10 (babysitting money) and had them delivered to the house. I can still hear her scream to this day, "Devil Cards!" and she isn't even christian. Hey, they were in the back of Archie Comics, how bad could they be?

[Mojorabbit]

7. I agree

and have brought it up on posts in the past few days. It makes me sad.

[Irishonly]

8. Well said

I happen to be Christian but I respect those who believe differently or have no belief at all as well as equal rights for all. I become infuriated with the religious right and have often times been told I am not a real Christian. You are not a laughing stock. We all have the freedom to worship any way we want or not at all.

[ZombieHorde]

9. "We are not a religion, we have no dogma, and have a great sense of personal responsbility(sic)."

I think paganism is a religion. Religions are belief systems in which a supernatural entity, force, or phenomenon helps to define morality. The Rule of Three definitely fits this.

I know many on this board are atheist or agnostic, but that still doesn't give anyone the right to laugh and point fingers at our spiritual path.

I agree, people do not have the right to point and laugh at pagans because they are atheists, people have the right to point and laugh at pagans because they have the ability to point and laugh. No opinion should be above mockery.

Not unlike being gay, it's something you are born with and can never really discuss with those who aren't Pagan.

I often suspect one's religion is not an act of free will, but I don't think people are born with their religious beliefs. Most people are the religion they are raised. Conversions are unusual, and the new religion is often a branch of the previously held religion, such as Christianity to Islam. If people were born with their religion, then conversions would be much more common place. Do you agree?

As I stated in another thread, maybe it is a good thing that we are noticed. Maybe then we can be treated as full citizens, with the same religious
rights as everyone else.

If you want religious rights, you may wish to avoid saying things like, "we are not a religion."

There is no such thing as an Insta-Witch.

Isn't this a dogma? Who is the authority on who is a witch and who is not a witch?

[shireen]

14. religion and the brain

I often suspect one's religion is not an act of free will, but I don't think people are born with their religious beliefs. Most people are the religion they are raised. Conversions are unusual, and the new religion is often a branch of the previously held religion, such as Christianity to Islam. If people were born with their religion, then conversions would be much more common place. Do you agree?

Maybe not a specific religion, but some human brains are more pre-disposed to religion to others. Interesting article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

Also, i read somewhere (sorry, can't find the source right now) that some evolutionary biologists think that religion is a result of natural selection; people who believed in higher beings were more likely to survive because they were more likely to, for the lack of a better word, remain hopeful. So, if a person's predisposition towards religious belief is a function of their brain wiring, it sure explains a lot about the humans on our planet. My fear, however, is that it could also eventually lead to our extinction. Hey! That's evolution for ya! :D

[Hestia]

24. Then you really have no clue as to who Pagans, Wiccans and Witches really are

and if you feel it is necessary to laugh at another's spiritual path, whatever. Why we aren't a religion is that we do not have a written word to tell us what to believe. It all comes from within. Yes, I was a child when my innate belief's formed within me. It took me years though to really understand what it was. Very very few people, though, are born with innate abilties inless they come from a Fam Trad, which is rare. Insta-Witches rarer still. There is no authority whatsoever and we can call ourselves whatever we wish.

[ZombieHorde]

31. "Why we aren't a religion is that we do not have a written word to tell us what to believe."

Those who adhere to religions with a written word can't agree on the word's meaning, so I hardly think this disqualifies Wicca for the classification, religion. ;-)

I have a pretty good understanding of pagans. I have been initiated into a pagan group, but I think many of them think my atheism is joke.

[Kokonoe]

10. Plus one

Thank You for writing that.

[MorningGlow]

11. Thank you, Hestia

Well said.

I think our biggest "problem" as witches/pagans is that too many people who have no idea what we are about also have no INTEREST in learning what we are about. Because of thousands of years of "bad press", from the Burning Times in Europe and the Salem witch trials to the Wicked Witch of the West, we get all kinds of things ascribed to us (hexing people, devil-worshipers, etc.) that are not true.

If only there were more of a platform to explain what we're all about before the gates slam shut--you know what I'm talking about, that particular expression that comes over someones's face when they hear the word "pagan", let alone "witch", that shows they've already made up their minds that the person in question is eeeeevillll, no matter what the actual truth.

Unfortunately I don't see this moment as any different, providing any more of a platform for us to explain ourselves to the general populace, from any other. O'Donnell has conflated witchcraft with satanism and has lumped in odd descriptions of practices that apply to neither faith. And the incurious are going to buy into it without pause. Too bad, really.

[Hestia]

22. Too true...

IMNSHO, we don't have a credible leader that can and will speak for us. Case in point - I've just met some supposed high muckety-mucks who have been around the last 30 years, wrote some books, well know in the Pagan Community, and they are so full of shit they hurt. These are our leaders? No questions allowed, and if asked, he would turn on you like a scorpion just because you dare to ask.

Pete Pathfinder Davis is someone I highly respect and comes across as creditable but he is what 80 now? Everyone else can't seem to leave the flowing robes at home and dress in everyday clothes to discuss Paganism. What are they scared of, that we just might be as boring as the rest of the world in our everyday lives? That we wash clothes and scrub floors by hand rather than like Samantha? Believe me, if I could flick my wrist and say Bippity Boppity Boo and the house is clean and the fridge full of groceries, I will share that spell with the world. Until then, I work wage slave hours and have toilets to scrub like everyone else.

The part that bothers me about the O'Donnell debacle is that is seems to be no problem for some to equate Satanism & Witchcraft. Though, remarkably, the comments haven't been that way. Read at CNN - people were saying the same things we are Witchcraft doesn't equal Satanism.

I guess I get to grow my tough hide back and not be so thin skinned about witchcraft. Today has been remarkable in that all the comments in all the threads everyone seems to "know" what we are about and we aren't in league with the devil.

Did ya'll read about the planetary configuration yesterday?

Jupiter conjunct Uranus
Saturday, September 18, 6:13 pm PDT, 9:13 pm EDT

The second of three conjunctions between these visionary planets opens minds to worlds beyond the limits of current logic. Their first union occurred on June 8 and the third will be on January 4, 2011 in a series meant to blow minds and blast through antiquated theologies and fatuous philosophies. New social and political movements may begin with enthusiasm, excess and exaggeration, but we are heading toward a fresh period of human liberation where discoveries in the world and in ourselves will blast us into the future.

I feel I have seen this happen this weekend. It's been one of rare one's where everything lined up like it was suppose to.

Many Blessings and Peace

[FirstLight]

12. Hear!Hear!

I keep thinking about anti-semitism and the islamaphobia we know so well... and that mockery of one's beliefs often leads down some of that same slippery slope.
There are those here that would mock all religions equally, but that doesn;t make it okay either.

if we are a nation who prides itself on accepting all races, sexual orientations, religions and such...then we need to honor eachother in that way as well... and i also agree about those insta-witches, but they are truly a minority and not worth their salt ;) hehe pagan humor!

thanks for pointing this out!
:grouphug:

[d_r]

15. I'm guilty of making fun of the odonnell thing

I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking. Thank you for taking the time to write these points.

[bobbolink]

18. !

:applause:

Its always refreshing to see a reasoned response.

Much appreciated!

[Hekate]

16. Christine O'Donnell is an ass, and unless she can spin a convincing Jesus-story fast...

... she's going to be toast with her admirers. The only problem for us is, she (like Palin, like Bush Jr.) is talking to a segment of the population that goes for Jesus-redemption-conversion stories like they were candy at Christmas. So as long as she sticks to that and people don't look too closely, she's actually covered.

She's still an ass, and she's an attention-whore. She by herself can't set Neopaganism back decades, although the theocrats she's in bed with will if they can. Don't take your eye off the theocrats.

As far as I can tell, there are a lot of friendly dabblers out there, and there's a certain amount of crossover with New Age dabblers. "Based on sales and websites" there are an awful lot of people who like the paraphernalia -- jewelry, crystals, candles, home decor, and books about feng shui and spells for your home. Those are not serious adherents, but they do buy stuff.

The figure you quoted of 13 million is wildly optimistic. Neopagans (I'm using the umbrella term) are a tiny minority of the US population. Wiki's source seems to accord with other sources I encountered back when I was doing my dissertation research.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism#North_America
>>> In the United States, the ARIS 2001 study, based on a poll conducted by The Graduate Center at The City University of New York found that an estimated 140,000 people self-identified as Pagans; 134,000 self-identified as Wiccans; and 33,000 self-identified as Druids.<35> This would bring the total of groups largely accepted under the modern popular western definition of Neopagan to 307,000. <<<

Although you say it's "not a religion," many Neopagans disagree and want to be recognized as such legally for some fairly substantial reasons, including Constitutional protections. Many are veterans or active service members and when their time comes they want their personal beliefs to be honored on their gravestones just as dozens and dozens of other religions and their sects are ( http://www.cem.va.gov/hm/hmemb.asp ) It was a long hard legal battle to get the VA to agree to add the Pentacle to their approved list of "Emblems of Belief" -- and hopefully one day the Triple Moon and other symbols will join the list.

This movement has staying power, and a new generation has been raised in it. Influences go out past the immediate circles and groves, too, as witness the Goddess movement. What I had thought of as my Moon Circle for 20 years was immediately understood by a Christian woman I referenced it to as a Wise Women Circle, without me ever having to say anything about Goddess. The concepts are traveling outward.

I didn't mean to hijack your thread, just wanted to add a word of support. There are a lot of misconceptions about Wicca (oooo evil witches) and Asatru (oooo evil Nazis) in popular culture, and the media mostly doesn't help. The media wants to sell ad space and popcorn :eyes: so if they can stir the pot by interviewing a flake or a fundie, they will. It's important that liberals -- even our vocal minority of nonbelievers at DU -- understand that respect for all religious paths is important, whether or not they personally believe any of it.

Hekate

[Hestia]

21. You really think that 134,000 can support 3 publishing houses? I buy a lot of books

but not that many. A mere 134k =/- ain't going to do it. It was a report stating that B&N had the largest database in the world at that time 1999. The report stated that even with counting multiple sales by people, there had to be 13M to account for the sales generation. Do you really think with the shops and books sold that only a few of us are supporting this segment in society? 13M is more than the teabaggers at this point in time. The figure comes from 1999, nothing recent. Google probably has the biggest database at this time. B&N's was pre-internet.

I blame the media for surpressing the numbers, along with the HP they interview who keep that figure going to this very day.

A dabble sounds like a Buffy-ite who has no clue or dedication to this path. True, a generation has been brought up by their parents, but they still have to hide to this day. We really don't get to fully flout ourselves as the churchianitian do. Half of that is our fault for not standing up. I've never been hidden until 3 years ago. I thought the stories about whole cities being churchanity were wildly exaggerated but they aren't. I've had friends no longer be friends because of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was spitting in churchians face. I don't get to talk about the PPD I just attended while I listen to the preaching that went on today like my co-workers do. Why? Because I am truly afraid my supervisor will find an excuse to fire, though I do no less than anyone else in our office. Thank Goddess I work for the state and have recourse. But my name will be mud in this town. It's hard to shrug off that type of thing, no matter how old you are.

[Hekate]

30. These were self-identified in a study

I am sorry if that conflicts with your beliefs, as I didn't intend to hurt you.

When any sort of survey of religious beliefs is done in this country, self-identification is really all anyone can go by.

Hekate

[frogmarch]

19. I suppose this is OT, but

I like the true story of the Wiccan woman living in modern-day Salem who, as a descendant of one of the hanged Salem "witches," walks her little dog every morning to the Charter Street Cemetery and lets him lift his leg on the gravestone of witch trials judge John Hathorne.


John Hathorne's grave is in poor condition now. It's suspended in a new concrete gravestone.

[texastoast]

34. Those people were the essence of evil

I read depositions of witch trials that occurred from Germany to the U.S. over a span of about 200 years. The people who were hired to rid the lands of "witches" were complete whores. The more witches they found, the more money they made.

And the horrific tortures that completely innocent people were subjected to should never be forgotten.

May the dog piss on those tombstones forever.

[frogmarch]

35. I agree. I've read about

the professional witch hunters in Europe. Although the witch hysteria was bad here, it wasn't as fierce nor as longlasting as the witch fever was in Europe.

Two of my distant great-grandfathers were jurymen in the Salem witch trials. One of them had two sons, who, along with their wives, testified against accused "witch" Elizabeth Howe, who was then hanged.

A distant great-grandmother of mine was one of the hanged witches, and the sister of another of my great-grandfathers was also hanged as a witch.

Another of my distant great-grandfathers, along with his family, stuck their necks out and signed a petition to try to free accused "witch" Elizabeth Proctor, but she too was hanged.

I've read that today Salem, MA is a haven for those who practice Wicca and other forms of "witchcraft," because Salem never agains wants to be accused of persecuting witches.

[Tyrs WolfDaemon]

20. Thanks for speaking up.

Thank you from a tired Heathen.

[lunatica]

23. Lots of people, especially here make fun of what I believe in

they don't necessarily single out Wiccans. I believe in reincarnation and the Law of Karma which is the perfect force that keeps the universe in balance. Action always creates equal and opposite reaction until the energy generated has been used and balanced. That's what I believe in but if I talk about in GD I get accused of woo woo by people who have no more knowledge of what runs the universe than anyone else.

So my friendliest suggestion possible is that the people who claim to have all the answers here don't and you shouldn't pay attention to them. They will make fun of anything that they don't understand. And if that's the path they choose then more power to them. I don't feel I need to force my beliefs on anyone nor do I make fun of anyone else's beliefs, and I never apologize for how I run my life.

Namaste

[texastoast]

33. Proud member of the DU woo woo clique

And you can't believe the number of DU'ers I have on ignore because their minds are closed to anything that "science" hasn't proven to their own satisfaction.

I feel compassion for them, though. Their time will come when they realize that they don't have all the answers. Meanwhile, they have no clue how annoying their tunnel vision can be to others.

[lunatica]

36. I'm delighted to know you!

I really expected to have someone respond with an insult. This is so much better!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. As a Pastafarian myself, I agree.

Ramen.

[lunatica]

39. I rest my case

I'm sure you crack yourself up. Like I said, more power to you.

Namaste

[Ignis]

53. You've had bricks thrown in your window, too?

That's horrible, and I'm sorry to hear it. Welcome to the club. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. It was a large block of parmesan cheese.

[Ignis]

57. That's almost as funny as a burning cross in the lawn!

But you're right, of course: Pastafarians are subject to the same or more abuse than Wiccans, and have exactly as much cause to fear for their safety because of their beliefs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Speaking truth to power.

[Ignis]

60. Yes, I am.

I can't wait to hear your extensive collection of swastika jokes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Haven't got any.

The holocaust is not a laughing matter.

[Ignis]

62. Ah, so some religious persecution is funnier than others.

Got it.

[Nye Bevan]

32. Can't you just cast a spell and turn her into a toad? (nt)

[MorningGlow]

40. Alas, that ol' "harm none" rule and the Threefold Law get in the way

Drat. ;)

I was always taught to send loving energy to everyone, even those--especially those--who piss you off. Often we call it sending "white light". We try, sometimes we fail. My friends and I have agreed that sometimes, when someone is being especially irritating, the best we can do is shout to the heavens "White light, asshole!"
:rofl:

[texastoast]

46. +1

:rofl:

[Ignis]

49. One of the best responses I've heard to this slur:

When asked by some ignorant nut-job, "Can you turn me into a toad?" my Wiccan friend answered:

"Honey, you should be more worried about finding someone to turn you into a human being."

[MorningGlow]

50. OMG that is fantastic!

:rofl:

[Ignis]

52. Yeah.

She left the poor guy standing there gobsmacked. It was beautiful. :D

[felix_numinous]

37. Thank you for speaking out.

Wicca is the remnants of very old women's wisdom, and the vilification of wise women is also very old.

This new wave of fundamentalist rhetoric threatens the most peaceful people, those that just wish to live an authentic life as they really are. All the talk vilifying pleasure, free lifestyles and creative thought needs to be taken very seriously, and nipped in the bud. These people disturb me to the bone.

I am looking to get this bumpersticker : "The last time politics was mixed with religion, people were burned at the stake."

[texastoast]

56. There is an older book

And not super fun to read, for one reason because it isn't footnoted as well as I like to read historical stuff like it, but it is a great place to get a general overview of of some strong theories on how the patriarchy came about and it is endnoted with tons of other scholarly resources.

The title is "When God Was a Woman."

[Jamastiene]

41. An enthusiastic K&R

:thumbsup:

[Uncle Joe]

43. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Hestia.

[Ignis]

45. K&R. Thanks for posting this, but it's a losing battle at DU.

I've been attacked several times at DU for daring to admit I'm a Pagan (really a naturalistic pantheist) and/or that my wife is a Wiccan. It's not pretty to see self-declared Leftists personally attacking another DUer for their religion or philosophy--and it's even more disconcerting to see those personal attacks allowed to stand. :(

Unfortunately, DU doesn't do a great job of protecting certain minorities from the bullying behavior that many of us are used to seeing on unmoderated forums, so the best advice I can offer to avoid the stalking and harassment I've encountered is to simply keep silent on this point. Don't share any personal information unless absolutely necessary, because some wanker will dig it up and use it against you at a later date.

Sucks, doesn't it? :shrug: Until things change, hang in there. :hug:

[Blue_Tires]

48. ttt

[Norrin Radd]

51. kr

[Vehl]

55. well said! K & R ,

As a Hindu (albeit of the atheist persuasion), I loved your post.

I respect the fact that you guys are not a missionary religion, and that one of the core ideas of wicca is that everyone is free to follow their own paths. I can relate to a lot of stuff you guys do

:)

[foxfeet]

59. Thanks for the post.

And, as demonstrated in this thread, our diversity and lack of a central, externally-imposed dogma is alive and well. As it should be.

[madmom]

63. I really like and understand your post. I am not a religious person, but I did

research the Wiccan philosophy. While I don't pretend to understand it all, I do agree with it's teaching more than any other. If I HAD to pick one path it would be Wiccan.

Peace and Blessings to you.