I demand the the Senate put the whole 1000 page Immigration Bill ON LINE before they vote on it.

[Joanne98]

BECAUSE they didn't read NAFTA and they didn't read GATT and they didn't read the Patriot Act and they didn't read the Iraq War Resolution and they NEVER read anything. BECAUSE they NEVER read the bills they vote on, they need to give US the chance to read them. ESPECIALLY THIS ONE! Why is it a thousand pages? That alone sends a chill down my spine. It's probably full of all kinds of shit we will be suffering from for a generation. When I looked up yesterday and saw the Secretary of Commerce and the Secretary of HLS standing there together praising the "compromise" I about shit my pants. Talk about an unholy alliance! That is NOT a good sign. Let them PUT IT ONLINE and give us three days to read it. I don't think that's too much to ask. After all it IS OUR COUNTRY!

[LSparkle]

1. I absolutely agree

I want to know EXACTLY what it says so I can tell my representatives whether I think they should vote for it or not. If they don't put it online, then that's a good indication THEY DON'T WANT PUBLIC FEEDBACK ... They just want to pass it in the middle of the night, without the chance for any public outcry.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

2. BINGO...REC FIVE FROM ME

May America become whole again.

[terisan]

3. Absolutely right ! The bills need to be posted online.

The excuse of "I didn't read it" or No one told me" coming from a legislator is on the level of The Dog Ate My Homework.

[Joanne98]

7. I wish I had a nickel for everytime I've heard that. "I didn't read the bill"

I'd be rich and I wouldn't have to be a lowly slave anymore. I'd be a member of the blood-sucking "investor class" and make a nice living off the SWEAT OF OTHERS!

[StarryNite]

4. I agree

Get it out in the open. It's our country, goddamnit!

[Jelybe903]

51. Fast Track a Mandatory Bill Literacy ...Bill

Administered by the Stanford Achievement Tests...

You must pass a comprehensive test on content before voting!

May be we can help all the Sen's and Rep's study...like human Cliff notes!

A government for the people by the people...Oh Mr. Jefferson

Can we really have a say...

Our Senators and Reps are suppose to be our voice...They don't know what their voting on...and we can't find out until its to late. Lets FAST TRACK a bill to do just that...like a building permit you have 30 days to contest this or any part of...Post it everywhere and let us see...maybe we can all take turns holding a story hour for our reps at the local library. Give us back our voice!

[snappyturtle]

5. K&R I said it in an e-mail to Senator Hutchison today:

The fact the bill is 1000 pages scares me! Oh, I'm glad I'm not alone. I urged Hutchison and Cornyn to read the bill! Brian on Washington Journal said this morning they would put the bill on their website as it comes in. I don't know, of course, if he meant it would be there in its entirety. Hope so. I'll look to see if anything is there yet!

[libnnc]

6. Yep.

K&R :thumbsup:

[Up2Late]

8. It's not 1000 pages, I heard it's less than 400...

...but it will feel like 1000 if you try to read it. They are usually very repetitive and difficult to read, due to the "...this section refers to part 15c of section 204..." BS they always put in them.

[Joanne98]

10. I heard it's between 750 and 1000 but whatever.. I don't care if it's TWO!

I want to know what it says so I have a chance to DEFEND MYSELF!

[dave_p]

9. I've no problem with the Bill as outlined ...

... and I agree. Government information is a disgrace. Whatever your position, this information should be available without having to weave through half a dozen pages to find the Bill number (no, I don't know it either).

To hell with three days, citzens should have a month to read it and comment. And news outlets that enjoy a place on the nation's airwaves should be required to link every reference to the text, be it a bill, treaty or communique.

After that, I'm for elected representatives having the right to ignore what anyone else says and vote with their conscience after appropriate study of the facts. But the absence of readily available information is an affront to democratic participation.

[Joanne98]

11. We can call it, "The Devil's in the Details Project"

Some sunshine would help us alot! I'm sick of the secrecy! Like the new TRADE AGGREEMENT! I bet they didn't read that either.

[dave_p]

13. Just call it... uh, democracy?

Sometimes folk don't need so much detail to be able to discuss as informed citizens, sometimes they do. I thought it was what websites were for. :)

[Joanne98]

12. And they didn't read the "No Child Left Behind" Act either....

And because they didn't read it Bushco gets to LOOT the country with their crummy teaching tests. Ted Kennedy should resign just for that BLUNDER! I still can't believe he was SO STUPID!

[ChazII]

38. I am confused

is this the bill that Kennedy and McCain helped to write??? I know that Conyer (sp) and Kyl had one about a year ago and there have been others as well. Both political sides are complaining about this issue.

Thank you for being proactive with your threads. I am learning more than I would via msm.

[Karenina]

14. I would LOVE to see a 100 page limit

on ALL BILLS and restrictions that would disallow "piggybacking." No attaching unrelated issues or popping "poison pills" into the mix. Every bill submitted would be required to be concise, READABLE and AVAILABLE to the American public 10 days before any vote is scheduled. EVERY CONGRESS CRITTER would be REQUIRED BY LAW to READ the bills upon which s/he votes.

[MH1]

26. Calculate review time before voting based on number of pages.

24 hours (1 business day) for every ten pages of a bill, but a minimum of three days. With maybe an exception procedure for handling a genuine emergency.

Then, a hundred page bill would require ten business days to be reviewed before it could be voted on. :)

[Karenina]

27. NOW we're talking!

The critters need to AT LEAST READ the shit before casting a vote. This "plausible deniability" doo-dah is getting mighty old.

[cyberpj]

15. k/r - Since they're not going to do the job they were elected to do... nt

[Jacklyn75]

16. I want them to READ it and let us read it as well! n/t

[Up2Late]

17. NPR just put out a call for Comment on the new Immigration Bill to be read on Today's Newscast!

They said they will read these comments on TODAY'S "All Things Considered" during the 5:00-6:00pm part of the show, so do it NOW if you want to voice an opinion on this!

Here's the link: <http://www.npr.org/contact/>

VERY IMPORTANT: Make sure you pick the NPR Program "All Things Considered" at the link above.

NOTE: I just posted this same message as a separate thread here in GD.

[Joanne98]

19. Done and can you please put a link here to your GD thread?

[Up2Late]

32. Here's the link, but nobody responded to it at the time.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=917716&mesg_id=917716>

Not that unusual, posts linking to NPR often get ignored here (lots of NPR Haters here).

It was kind of a lame deal anyway, they only gave folks about 20 minutes to respond to the call before they started reading a few emails.

Here's the links to the program and the reports though:

<http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=2>

<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10266183>

<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10266190>

<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10266205>

[pscot]

18. The last immigration bill, also byTeddy,

Amnestied illegal immigrants and was supposed to resolve the whole issue. Obviously that one didn't work out so good. I want to see all the cards on the table this time.

[Joanne98]

20. Ted Kennedy should retire. He's way too out-of-touch!

[Robson]

37. Ted says he's for the working person - LOL

I fail to understand how Ted Kennedy thinks he is for the working person, when he has consistently worked to provide business with an oversupply of labor that enables them to squeeze wages and benefits to their heart's desire.

No Sen. Ted Kennedy, I know what being for the working person is about, and your open door immigration policies have shafted the working person in this country and those on the bottom of the ladder are shafted the worst.

[avrdream]

21. Hear, hear!

I think, within DU alone, we could get the 1000 pages read and analyzed in 3 days easily. I'll take pages 78-102 if you are looking for volunteers.

I'd even do it for free.

[originalpckelly]

22. I don't know if this is the exact bill, but it is an immigration bill:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:s1348pcs.txt.pdf

[farmbo]

47. Yep....Senate Bill 1348 is now up...all 790 pages of it...take a look:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:s1348pcs.txt.pdf

Here's more analysis:

http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/110_SN_1348.html

[OneBlueSky]

23. it's 1000 pages precisely so no one will read it . . . that's how they do things . . . n/t

.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

24. ah, reality at last.

except, it is hardly likely. National security, and all that, you see.

[Joanne98]

25. You know, the reason they don't read bills is because THEY DON'T WRITE THEM!

The corporate lawyers for the US Chamber of Commerce wrote this bill. And we KNOW THEY DID! The Chamber HATES WORKERS! And that's the TRUTH!

[Stalwart]

45. Who Wrote the Bill???

Every written word came from someone, initially, that crafted the words into idea structures. Entire portions may have been cut and paste but they still have a source that was authored by someone.

Every portion of every bill should have a source reference, an organization, department, person. If that was done, it would be easy to search on who wrote what.

It would be interesting to know how much was actually written by the bill sponsor, how much was written by a lobbyist.

If all bills were on line then it would be easy to search entire phrases to determine where else they have appeared.

I like "mouse over". As the cursor goes over the written bill, pop ups show who wrote it, or a genesis of where sentences appeared before in other publications plus the original author. A "mouse over" feature that can be turned on or off or selectable to "pop up" other information about the sentences or portions being read, such as the input comments of others on a specific particular sentence, statment or section.

[annabanana]

28. What an excellent idea! ALL bills ought to be thrown out here before the vote!

Interested parties on the 'net can eat
massive quantities of docs for breakfast. . and then line up for brunch!

I can't think of a single good reason NOT to do it!

[Malidictus Maximus]

46. Anyone who votes on anything

citizen or legislator, should be required to demonstrate comprehension of what the fuck they are voting ON. Yes, I know, the racists used 'literacy tests' to disqualify blacks way back when, but really, I don't think our congress critters are any more guilty than all the people I know who vote on propositions who have never even READ the text of the proposition; all they know is what they are told be it by left or right. Two degrees in political science, worked as a pollster and taught at university and *I* still sometimes don't know exactly what the ballot prop would (or would not) do.
Anything longer or more complex than the constitution is bullshit. All laws and propositions should be limited to 300 words, none of which may be more than 6 letters long, and must be thrown out if sampling can show that they are not readily understandable by a typical 12th grader.
Sorry, everyone, need more coffee.....

[dave123williams]

29. It's 380 pages.

[progressoid]

31. It's 1000 pages in the large type version for Senator Byrd.

:)

[Nimrod2005]

30. Isn't it 375 pages?

[autorank]

33. I heartily endorse this demand! K*R

What a notion, making it easy for the public to read the bill. They won't of course. Several hundred thousand citizens would read it in great detail and we'd have a Wikipedia type experience with each and every bill, experts all over the place. That would entail congress reading the bills as well. Mon Dieu! We can't have that, but we will. The first thing we'd notice is that the bills are written to keep us form understanding them even if we do read them. Some of the very important legislation is simply a series of modifications to existing legislation by referencing changes in other legislation. There are no links;) so you have to poke around to know exactly what's going on. That will change too.
Excellent idea.

[Robson]

36. And I 39th it ! We the people deserve the right to know! And they all must read what they sign.

Before Bush and his Congress force us to bend over and take their lip service solution to illegal immigration like a man and w/o vaseline, I want to be assured that each and every Congress person has read it, and that each and every American citizen for whom they work has had the opportunity to comment on it.

[tanyev]

34. What you said!

:applause::applause:

[madokie]

35. wrong, its their country and we only live in it

don't believe me, then ask any of the pols, they'll tell you. :rofl:

[ooglymoogly]

52. To put a finer point on it

we are here to keep the treadmills spinning that keep them rolling in obscene wealth and to fleece in every way known to man.

[The Witch]

39. thomas.loc.gov anyone?

Don't they have the full text of all bills introduced online?

[madrchsod]

40. yes they do....everyone should have this bookmarked

http://thomas.loc.gov/
THOMAS (Library of Congress)

[blueworld]

41. Excellent idea! K&R

And, after watching John MacArthur on Bill Moyers last night, I'm even more suspicious about what's in it & why. :toast:

[blueworld]

42. Sorry, I forgot

Bravo to David Sirota (Sirota blog) for his continuing coverage of this issue:

http://www.workingassetsblog.com/2007/05/secret_trade_deal_day_6_senato.html

[StefanX]

43. Hey, you might be onto something... could start a trend here

Seeing as Congress never has time to read the bills they pass, maybe we could starting helping them out more. Let's try some DIRECT democracy for a change.

Put more bills on line and let us (and the Freepers) weigh in on them.

I'm not afraid. We ARE the majority -- you can see that from the way we always win the on-line polls.

That's the meaning of democracy.

I seriously predict Congress will be obsolete someday. Check out accuratedemocracy.com and you'll see that there are also lots of different ways to vote for things -- vote for budgeting, vote for projects... not always just for candidates.

I hope someday we all just vote directly on-line for what we want our country to do. Then those few hundred Congresspeople can just go home and we can stop nosing into their private lives.

[Donnachaidh]

44. How about posting ALL potential bills ONLINE?

If our reps don't read these things WE can.

[Misskittycat]

48. Totally agree. Let's make it happen.

I'm a lawyer. I can read and analyze legislation.

[Joanne98]

49. OMG! I can't believe how many recs this got!

Thankyou all so much!
:hi:

[gravity]

50. Are you going to read the 1000 pages?

[Donnachaidh]

54. if it means my country is going to be screwed with -- DAMN SKIPPY!

When each and every bill pushed through has earmarks, and bits that strip away rights from citizens, we had ALL better be prepared to READ and then start screaming about what is being done.

[wundermaus]

53. Congress is not doing it's job !!!

In fact, I like the idea of posting EVERYTHING on the internet they are pending a vote on. Public review for no less than 5 working days prior to a vote would shine much light on there shady antics! The 3 branches of our government are failing to act on our behalf... it is now up to the 4th branch of government, We, the People to provide the checks and balances! http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.1348:

http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/110_SN_1348.html

[High Plains]

55. This thread is hysterical. All bills are available online...

...at http://www.thomas.loc.gov

[drm604]

56. Your link doesn't work.

Remove the "http://.

http://thomas.loc.gov/

[iverglas]

57. I couldn't believe it wasn't ... and here it is

I work with Canadian government bills, so I know exactly where to find them:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/index.asp?Language=E

and I figured that if I asked google for bills "united states" senate I'd find an equivalent; here it is:

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/g_three_sections_with_teasers/legislative_home.htm

How to Find Legislation

Active Legislation <link> is a list of current bills, arranged by subject, that have been receiving legislative or media attention.

The THOMAS legislative information system <link> provides search options for finding bill texts and legislative histories from 1973 (93rd Congress) to the present.

The correct Thomas link is actually: http://thomas.loc.gov/

The Senate immigration bill, S.1348, is here:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.1348:

[drm604]

59. Your last link doesn't work.

The last colon was cut off.

thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:S.1348:

Why don't people preview their posts and double-check the links before submitting?

[iverglas]

60. my everlasting humble apologies

But hey, you're welcome.

Myself, I usually manage to figure out little glitches like a colon coming detached from a url ...

on edit:

... apart from the fact that the link where the link to active legislation is found was right in my post, so anyone could easily find the bill for him/herself from there ... not to mention the fact that I don't even have a dog in this race and was just volunteering a little assistance because I happen to know how to track down stuff like this. Yeesh.

[drm604]

61. I apologize.

My post came off as kind of nasty, I didn't intend it that way and I'm really sorry. It was the third or fourth link I ran into today that didn't work and I took it out on you, which was uncalled for. :hi:

[iverglas]

62. well at least it let you in!

*I* hate the links that tell me I'm not allowed to read.

And I hate how when I try to put an apostrophe in when I make a clickable link here, it adds a slash ...

;)

[drm604]

63. A trick I like to use

is to turn a complex URL into a tinyurl.

http://tinyurl.com

That keeps the forum software from screwing up complicated URLs.

[Joanne98]

58. HELLO!

:kick: