What's up with the private school hate?

[XemaSab]

I went to a private school when I was in elementary school: St. Paul's Episcopal School.

http://www.spes.org/

It's a school that prides itself on diversity, creativity, and social justice.

Back in the day we learned about the famine in Ethiopia, apartheid in South Africa, and other issues facing people around the world. We also learned about traditions, legends, and celebrations from all peoples of the earth.

The school was also very focused on science and the environment, WAY before it was cool. One year we adopted trees, and every week we would go visit our tree. We also went to the park and looked at the birds and insects.

My class was small, and had black kids, Asian kids, Jewish kids, and white Christian kids... It was the second-most diverse school I've been to after LA City College. :D

We wrote stories, did art, put on plays, made sculptures and maps, played math games, listened to stories. It was a great school, and I got a much better education there than I got at my dreadful local public school.

My family wasn't even close to wealthy. I was raised by a single mom with no child support. She paid $250 a month for a tiny basement apartment. My room was 7 feet by 7 feet--a closet. And I had a virtual full-ride scholarship to my school.

Not every family that has kids in private school is wealthy.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. "dreadful public school"

That's called "propaganda". And it works best when instilled at an early age.

[Pithlet]

3. Really. Talk about hate. n/t

[XemaSab]

4. Uh, I actually wound up going to the school for a year

Fights on the playground every day, half of the kids couldn't read or add, and there were kids doing drugs in the bathrooms. In 6th grade.

My best friend there had both his arms and legs broken the next year because he wouldn't join a gang. :(

[Radical Activist]

9. "dreadful" sounds generous.

[XemaSab]

10. Thanks

:)

[Ken Burch]

14. The other issue is that, while private school was open to you(through various strokes of luck)

it will always be something most kids will never have as an option.

And encouraging kids to switch to private schools will almost always have the extreme right-wing consequence of simply leaving the public schools to rot, and the kids trapped in them to rot as well.

There has to be a more inclusive way to fix the schools.

And one that doesn't base its approach solely on the false assumption that most public school teachers are both incompetent and solely to blame for the problem.

(Not saying that YOU would agree that they are solely to blame, just finishing the thought I'd started in the previous sentence).

[Cronus Protagonist]

73. Thanks for that

You saved me a lot of typing. :P

Fixing and improving schools is the way to go, not heralding an exodus to private schools.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. LOL - as if there aren't dreadful public schools!

Are you fucking kidding me? There's propaganda alright, and it's coming from you!

[CreekDog]

22. she's the one lived in a rough area

i'll take her word that it was as bad as she says.

my friends live up the hill and hear gunshots throughout the night.

many wonderful people there, a huge number of knuckleheads.

[Hannah Bell]

39. we had someone making bombs in our neighborhood -- they blew up a house.

someone od'd & died in the house next door, & there's a meth house across the street.

on the next block a house burned down & is a rotted out hulk.

our teachers are generally fine.

but the kids of the meth heads have all kinds of problems -- like -- their parents don't even get them ready for school.

should the teacher come pick them up?

do you think a private teacher would be more likely to do so?

[CreekDog]

83. i don't understand why you are asking me those questions

as i said below, an issue where i grew up in SF was the safety of the neighborhood school. that's not the fault or responsibility of the teacher.

i don't know precisely why my private school in that neighborhood was safer, but for some easy to figure out reasons it was safer.

all that said, the public school was a new, modern facility and it was before funding for CA public schools had gone totally south, meanwhile the private school i went to was a converted strip mall that was out of date, lacked facilities and was somewhat crowded.

i think the point of this thread is that a lot of assumptions turn out to be wrong.

[BoneDaddy]

Not really

I have worked in plenty of dreadful public schools and it was an apt description. It wasn't a reflection of ALL public schools by any stretch. Public schools reflect the environment that they are in generally. This particular PS served the children in the projects.

[lynne]

65. There ARE dreadful public schools -

- there is one in our school system that I flat refused to send my child to. It's a middle school so I gave my child the option of attending a public "specialty" school or being sent to a private school. Better to acknowledge and identify the bad schools that are out there than to blindly send your child to an inferior institution just because Mom and Dad want to appear "politically correct".

[elleng]

76. BRAVO!

'Better to acknowledge and identify the bad schools that are out there than to blindly send your child to an inferior institution just because Mom and Dad want to appear "politically correct".'

[Rhiannon12866]

2. K&R. I went to a private school, too.

It's also a school that prides itself on its diversity. It took me about a year to catch up, after having attended public school, and I was at the top of my class there. There are good and poor schools in both the public and private sector, but I guess that we were among the lucky ones... :hi:

[Cid_B]

5. Hi... you must be new...

There seems to be some theory floating around here that if something is available to one person (child/man/woman) then it must be available to every other man/woman/child or it is unfair. Also the manner of delivery must be immediate and free. The fact that anyone can go to a private school with proper planning and will is irrelevant.

In summary its a case of envy.

Hope that clears it up for you.

P.S. I attended multiple private schools, home school and public high school and the formative years in the private were those that helped me the most. IMHO

[Confusious]

13. I would put a decent education in the category of "should be

available for free to every man/woman/child" regardless of income, wouldn't you? .

or do you think that a decent education is only for the select few, because that's how you're coming off in your post. if you don't mean it that way, please correct me.

right now public schools are just getting by, and they're talking about sending more tax dollars away to private schools that's why the hate, not envy.

[WillowTree]

28. I don't know how to break this to you, but nothing is ever free. Ever. Just sayin'.

[Ken Burch]

31. Nobody was saying anything was.

That's why you have government funding for schools, and why progressives have an obligation to defend the existence of the public school system and the right to affordable access to ALL levels of education.

You need that funding in order to prevent this country from sliding totally into a "all for the few, none for the many" social order.

There's no real connection between wealth and merit or wealth and achievement in the vast majority of cases, and this is why we have to have spending to keep the good things in life from being reserved solely for those who happen to be lucky enough to end up with money.

Otherwise, we're going to be stuck in the 19th Century again.

[Pholus]

33. Yes. Hence, public schools need funding.

You want private schools? Great. Sign that check and you've got it. Just understand that you are NOT paying for anything twice there. You're buying an education at the private school while you're following through on your minimum civic duty to make sure that a public education system exists for ALL Americans.

That's why vouchers are and always will be nothing but a tool meant to create more stratification between the haves and the have nots. It somehow implies that your taxes are tied to your student and the money is "yours" when it isn't. It also furthers the claims of the myopically self-interested that if they don't have children in school at a given instant they shouldn't have to pay for it.

[blondeatlast]

58. +1. Should be must-reading. nt

[CreekDog]

85. whomever seeks to save money by underfunding education is taking a sucker's bet

that will cost them far more in the long run than they saved.


provide students now with less and they will earn and then contribute less taxes throughout their lives

less education = less skilled jobs = lower wages

if you are relying on Social Security and Medicare, not to mention prisons to help keep you safe

they will be contributing less if they are less educated and less skilled

and the recipients of these programs will receive less per worker than they could have, had those workers been highly educated, highly skilled workers.

but the thing about a sucker's bet --people take it every time.

[Confusious]

87. You know what I ment

You're just playing stupid.

just sayin'

[Cid_B]

35. Whole thing stinks of...

not caring that the next generation is stupid so long as they are all equally stupid and no one feels left out.

Sheesh...

[Pholus]

41. As opposed to the opposite stink of....

As long as I got mine, the rest of you can go hang. Oh well, the next generation of cheap labor has to come from somewhere I suppose and we always can build gated communities with barbed wire fences to keep the undesirables out.

[SammyWinstonJack]

55. +1

:thumbsup:

[XemaSab]

81. If you got that out of my OP

you need to work on your reading comprehension. :shrug:

[Pholus]

89. That was a reply to Cid_B, not the OP

[Confusious]

88. No, this whole things sticks of

I got mine, why should I do for anyone else. I said a decent education, not a shitty one. Nor should a decent education be the purview of the select few.

[blondeatlast]

57. +1. nt

[joshcryer]

15. FYI it's called "egalitarianism."

Difficult concept to understand, for some.

[Ken Burch]

25. That theory is called "recognizing our common humanity"

Generally, decent human beings are NOT cool with the notion of privilege, especially when it is(as it usually is)undeserved and unrelated to the merits of anyone who actually receives it. Unlike YOUR stereotypical image, most people who identify as progressives recognize that inequality won't be wiped out immediately, or even anytime soon. But we do "get it" that the struggle to get rid of inequality and privilege needs to be continual and that, especially in the case of children, deprivation and hardship are NOT "no biggie" kinds of things...and the conservative idea that poverty and suffering build character is just upper-middle class delusional bullshit(as I suspect even Jesus would say if He showed up sometime in the near future).

Is there a reason you're so seemingly blase' about social inequality? A smug, dismissive "I've got mine, screw you" attitude will make you somewhat lonely on this board.


(P.S., no...it's NOT true that "anyone can go to a private school". Nice bit of libertarian mythology there, though.)

[Occulus]

40. "The fact that anyone can go to a private school with proper planning and will is irrelevant."

Not everyone can, which makes it very relevant. In fact, that fact makes it part of the core of the argument against them.

[Cid_B]

54. You want to elaborate or am I just supposed to guess...

... at which particular disadvantaged person/group you are referring to?

[Confusious]

86. Take me for instance

Which private school would you suggest a person who grew up in Alaska could go to, and had a family that could not make ends meet sometimes?

Where do you propose I get the money? loans? How does my family pay them back? grants? wasn't the greatest student. Not because I couldn't, but because of factors that involved seeing a shrink.

So just because of that, I should be fucked for the rest of my life?

What is with these myopic views of life?

[Cid_B]

113. Meh...

While I could list several reasons that you could have if you had wanted to(loans, scholarship, family moves, 2nd or 3rd job, sell house), I'll just leave it at this.

My point stands that no one is barred from attending private school and that includes you. If it was a big enough priority then it could have happened. It didn't and that's fine as well.

All this can't crap makes me want to puke though.

[Confusious]

114. your myopic point of view makes me want to puke.

Why can't people get 2nd and 3rd jobs to get health insurance. Why can't people get 4th and 5th jobs to send their kids to private school. Why can't people get 6th and 7th jobs to eat.

[blueamy66]

72. Did you read the entire post?

I'm thinking "no".

[Greyhound]

102. That in fact is the definitin of unfair.

Mammon Über Alles...

The divine right to rule must be preserved at all cost!

[Ken Burch]

6. Partly, it's the exclusiveness thing...partly its memories of the civil rights era.

A lot of people have deep suspicions of the motives of parents who want their kids in private schools-they feel, rightly or wrongly, that its about wanting their kids to be sheltered from, well, reality-to never see anyone who is in any way at all different from them, and to guarantee that their kids will never hear ANY people or any ideas that challenge things their parents have taught them-usually, this means not wanting their kids to hear anything that questions the hereditary hatreds some parents are determined to pass down through the generations.

And in the Fifties, "private" and/or "Christian" schools were code names for "schools where your kids will NEVER have to sit next to black kids(or any nonwhite or nonChristian kids), ever".

Even today, a lot of private schools are game preserves for endangered prejudices.

I'm glad your experience was different(and of course a lot of private schools don't fit the preconceptions I've listed above), but what I described in the previous paragraphs has a lot to do with the negative image a lot of progressives have about private schools.

[CreekDog]

8. I was sent to private school because my mom was concerned about GASP (wait for it)

going back to work so she could support us.

see, the public schools let out very early and there was no afterschool program, plus they wouldn't take me early anyway.

the private school took me as a preschooler and allowed me to stay onsite at their afterschool program until my mom got off work.

the schools i went to were not religious and they were some of the most affordable around and they were diverse.

i loved the public schools i went to later, they were terrific...had more to do with the teachers having the freedom to practice their trade as they knew best than whom they worked for.

where i went for private school was no Exeter, but it was private and it should teach you people not to jump to conclusions too quickly.

[Ken Burch]

12. Look, I wasn't saying I personally shared all of the beliefs about private schools

that I listed in the OP(at least not about ones that weren't Southern "Christian schools" in the late 1950's and into the 1960's).

I was just trying to explain what the feelings some people had about those schools were, whether valid or not(and I agree that in some cases they are unfair).

I'm glad you had a good school experience, and please don't take your school as being the type I mentioned. OK?

[CreekDog]

19. Wasn't replying with you specifically in mind, just the common thinking about private schools

in your post it's clear you were just giving a perspective and not indicating that you shared it...i know that.

:hi:

[Ken Burch]

23. OK...just wanted to be sure.

n/t.

[Jamastiene]

34. In at least one case, you can add LATE 70s to that list.

I posted below about my experience. That school I was going to at that time (late 70s) was all white and called a special PTA meeting just because a black kid wanted to go to school there.

[WillowTree]

27. Oh gimme a break.

I went to a private Catholic school in the 50s.......in the South, no less.......and ours was the only school in town where we would be (and were) in classes with non-white kids. That was at least partly why my parents sent us there.

Apparently some folks have prejudices of their own,

[Ken Burch]

29. "Catholic" schools in the South were not the same as "Christian" schools

I was talking about the places that Southern Baptist, Pentacostal or some of the less-pleasant Methodist congregations were running.

Those schools wouldn't have let Catholic kids in either.

I wasn't applying the term to parochial schools.

[Jamastiene]

36. The Catholics, in my experience, in general, in my home town have always been the most

progressive people I have known. My experience wasn't at a Catholic school though.

I think there is a huge difference between some(what is dubbed/claimed as) Christian schools in the South and Catholic schools down here. At least, that has been my experience. YMMV.

Of course, not all private schools are bad. Not all Christians are assholes or saints. Not all Catholics are assholes or saints. Not all private schools are good either.

It is truly one of those YMMV situations.

[olegramps]

49. What you have said is the truth.

Many parochial schools in our city were desperate for students and many had to close until mandatory busing was inaugurated to integrate the schools. White kids poured into the Catholic and Protestant run schools. They were not really that much different than the public schools in that the majority of the teachers were lay people since most of the nuns had left. The exodus of the priests drew a lot of attention, however, the nuns left in droves.

[Gaedel]

66. Roman Catholics in America

Both families and the clergy encouraged at least one the daughters in each large Catholic family to become a teaching sister. By agreeing to a life of austere poverty, the sisters allowed the Catholic church to operate a complete system of parish schools for their poor and lower middle class immigrant parishioners.

One of the things which drove the Catholics to do this was that the public schools of the time were teaching a sort of "interdenominational protestantism" in their curriculum often with teaching from the bible which differed from the Roman Catholic beliefs.

You have to admire the sacrifices made by the Roman Catholic community to construct a parallel school system to the public school system. Growing up in Detroit (40s and 50s), there were as many Catholic High Schools as public high schools.

During the sisties, the women entering Roman Catholic vocations wanted calling with moe social impact than teaching snotty-nosed kids and the supply of teaching sisters began to drop off more rapidly than the number of women entering convents.

[Caliman73]

7. I went to private school too.

The problem is that the administration is opting to privatize education rather than fixing the public system. The public system has been under attack by private entities who see education as a lucrative business. I had a mostly positive educational experience in private school from elementary to high school. My parents wanted to send me to Catholic school populated mostly by middle and working class Latinos and Filipinos, but I can see why advocates of public education see tax money being diverted from already underfunded schools to charters and other private schools as a problem. My son goes to public school and it has served him well, but we have had serious fights about cuts in funding.

It isn't about wealthy people, it is about diverting public funds into private hands with little or no accountability. It is about turning education into a business rather than a public service.

[XemaSab]

11. I totally agree with what you're saying

I think a free public education is the birthright of all Americans, and I don't see why the public schools should not be able to provide the kind of good education I had other than the lack of political will.

If the public schools had been better in my area, I would have gone to them, but my mom actually cared about my education. :P

I think it's very, very sad that many public schools are just warehouses for kids, and don't offer any opportunity to most students.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. So parents who send their kids to public schools don't care?

I beg to differ. I am also wondring why your mom didn't fight to improve your public school rather than abandon it.

[XemaSab]

80. My mom was working full time

exactly when was she supposed to help improve a school enough for it to provide a quality education for me?

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. I know plenty of working moms who do a lot to help their children's public schools

[XemaSab]

99. Care to give an example?

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. Participating in fundraisers

Building a new playground

Remodeling a library

Sending snacks and treats for special events

Calling trees to increase attendance at school events

Volunteering to interpret for non English speaking parents at conferences and other events

Donating time on weekends and during the evening for school improvement projects

Standing on the corner helping kids cross the street

Helping organize holiday parties

Teaching adult education classes in the evenings and after school



A job does not prevent a parent from helping at school. I worked while my children were growing up and managed to coach their sports teams, be a room mother, sit on the PTA board and organize several fundraisers.

[XemaSab]

101. There was no parents group at this school

You expect my mom to do all that by herself?

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. She needs a group to be an active and involved parent?

[XemaSab]

105. Let's look at what you suggested

These things require other active and involved parents:


Participating in fundraisers

Building a new playground

Remodeling a library

Helping organize holiday parties

Calling trees to increase attendance at school events



My mom speaks English and French:



Volunteering to interpret for non English speaking parents at conferences and other events



As a single parent, my mom was needed at home before school, in the evenings, and on weekends:


Donating time on weekends and during the evening for school improvement projects

Standing on the corner helping kids cross the street

Teaching adult education classes in the evenings and after school



And finally, yes, this she did:


Sending snacks and treats for special events

[PassingFair]

107. I was a coach for Odyssey of the Mind and Destination Imagination for ...

six years in my kid's public school.

Because they had no gifted program.

And yes, I worked full-time.

I could understand that with limited budgets,
any "extra" money should be directed to kids
who were behind the "curve".

I am a product of public schools, and so are
my children.

My brother's kids go to a catholic school, and
they are not allowed to speak freely about
their religious beliefs.

[Pithlet]

21. Your perception of public schools could not be more wrong.

I find that very, very sad. Yes, your local schools might have been "dreadful", though your obvious bias might have colored much of that judgment, I suspect. But our nations public schools are hardly just the warehouses you claim they are. That's ridiculous. Not to mention a right wing meme heavily pushed by those who wish to dismantle that system. My local schools that I send my kids to are supposedly awful. And some of them in the inner city do have a struggling population, it is true. But that doesn't mean the teacehers and staff aren't dedicated to trying to work with them. They have an uphill battle for various reasons, nothing to do with the fact that they're "warehouses". And because my kids' school happens to be a part of that system, there are other parents in the neighborhood who insist on paying tens of thousands a year for their darlings for the local private schools. The fact that our neighborhood school is actually excellent and highly regarded matters not. The City schools are Bad, and Everyone Knows That. So they're suckered into paying all that money. Because They Care More About Their Kids' Education. Meanwhile my husband and I and other parents like us are laughing all the way to the bank, while our kids' school has all new equipment and computers this year, and my kids are thriving. In fact, one of our son's teachers used to teach at one of those private schools Now we get her for free! I'm sure those parents would agree wholeheartedly with you, though. Their talking points sound exactly like yours.

[CreekDog]

24. can't a person who believes in public education be allowed to say a school or schools are "bad"

in many respects?

it wouldn't be accurate or fair to say all the schools in a city are bad --ask Tom Hanks.

but within a neighborhood or district --sure, if in fact there are overriding problems bringing down those schools.

i lived in a neighborhood where in Elementary School, my buddy got knives pulled on him.

you bet my mom had me in private school and you bet it was safer.

though we all played together in the same neighborhood after school.

what can i say. i think those schools given the right resources and not burdened with problems no teacher can overcome on their own, would achieve any goal we asked them to.

are they given the resources to have a fighting chance? often not. sadly.

and schools in the Bay Area, private and public, have been diverse for years. that's one thing that didn't change in my move from private to public schools --both were diverse, though fewer of my friends in public school had lawyers and doctors for parents...probably half my friends in public school had a family member who worked for United Air Lines.

[Pholus]

37. Sure -- but then help fix the problem.

But then again, where I grew up the parents made sure the public schools worked.

In AZ a few years back I took my kids to the first day of school juuuuust fine. My libertarian private school supporting friend showed up and found that her school had quietly closed down the weekend before classes started and the owners ran with the money. Lots of scrambling for her that day.

Of course, to make sure private schools "had a chance" the crazies in AZ had given tons of exemptions from laws that made this theft basically legal.

[blondeatlast]

59. Indeed. nt

[XemaSab]

79. I think my perception of the Oakland public schools is totally accurate

since I was a student in those schools for three years.

Have you ever been a student in an inner-city school?

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. +1

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. I went to private school and now I teach in public school

I chose public schools for my kids because I value diversity and that was the one big missing piece in my own education.

[CreekDog]

26. Despite my good experiences in private schools --and my own was a good experience

The best teachers I had by far, were in the public schools I attended.

I had some of the wisest, savviest people I've probably ever known helping prepare me for college and I was just in a mid-level school district, performance-wise.

I'm positive they didn't teach to the test (except the SAT vocabulary list).

To this day, I'm astounded at what wonderful lessons my English teacher taught us about the "Levels of Reasoning" --yes in 11th grade!

How my Physics teacher gave me advice on how to schedule my college classes to use my study time efficiently.

How my 12th grade English teacher explained to us how to divide our time in college between studying notes from the professor and studying the textbook.

How my public school offered a 7am class during Junior year to prepare us to take the SAT's, taught by teachers who were pro's at understanding the test. They were so good that I used what I learned a couple years later to tutor a girlfriend Geometry and another friend we covered the entire SAT and he raised his score 200 points so he could get into West Point.

My public school experience was amazing, and it's not like I was at Gunn or Cupertino (well known for extraordinary schools --public).

A great education is about talented teachers getting what they need to do what they do best.

I wish California would make sure of that. :(

[jobycom]

30. Hate is ignorant. The only problem with private schools are when public funds are used on them.

And that includes any form of tax cut or vouchers. If a district can give tax breaks to people who send their kids to private schools, historically what happens is that the district will then balance out those tax cuts with funding cuts to public schools. They may not be that obvious, but ultimately that's where the funds come from.

This was done in Mississippi very blatantly during desegregation. Districts stopped funding the public schools and gave tax breaks to all the white kids--based on income, so some white kids were sacrificed--to go to the local private school. Many towns in Mississippi (and I'm sure in other places--I see this still in Texas) had a white school and a black school after desegregation, too, only instead of both being advertised as public, the white school was considered private, and the public school was no longer funded at the levels it had been when it was a white school. Being private, the schools could still for the most part exclude non-white students.

One district here in Texas used to discriminate economically instead of racially, though it amounted to the same thing, mostly. In Texas the school districts paid into a state fund, which then divided funds up and sent them back out to the districts--this was to spread the wealth around better, so that the quality of schools wouldn't depend on the wealth of the district. Westlake, near Austin, lowballed the taxes they collected and sent to the state, but when they got the funds back from the state the collected a separate tax to fund only their schools. Courts finally put a stop to it, but that's in essence what school districts do when they give tax vouchers for private schools. They undercut public funding for poorer districts to "take care of their own."

I have nothing against private schools. I went to a private school three years (mine was Episcopalian, too :) ), and a public school the other 9. Honestly I got a better education in the public schools, but partied better at the private school. I sent my oldest daughter to private school for five years, counting kindergarten, and she, too, got at least as good an education from the public schools, because her school was afraid to pressure her for fear of driving away paying customers. They can be very useful for a number of reasons, ranging from religious ideals to special programs public schools can't provide.

But no public funds should go to private schools. That's a short circuit around Constitutional protections for too many places, especially places I've lived--Mississippi and Texas. Taxes should not go to paying for that in any way, but the choice should always be available to people who can afford it. And, occasionally, for kids with special needs that can't be met at public schools. Public school funding should meet definite standards, and not have those standards weakened by vouchers or rebates or other segregation-era gimmicks. After that, what a person does with their money is their business.

[Jamastiene]

32. Because so many private schools are NOT the way yours was.

The one I went to taught all kinds of stupid crap that was just racist and fundamentalist. They made a big deal when a black kid wanted to start going to school there. That was in the 70s, not the 50s or 60s. They even called a special PTA meeting in the church on campus to discuss the "problem." Of course, now, it is a mixed race school, but it took some serious fights to make it that way.

That place was fucking bat shit in what they taught and most of the kids who went there at the same time I did ended up right alongside me in the mental health offices for years to get it all worked out.

I'm not the only one who ended up with a stomach ulcer and neurotic mental conditions from the trauma of going to that school back then. Ten year olds shouldn't have those kind of problems to the point that they are basket cases. Both I, and at least one other girl who went to that school had parents who compared notes on the health issues we shared from the stress and trauma. It's the only thing that saved us and got us the hell out of that hellhole. Others weren't so lucky.

One 5 year old kid even got sent to an asylum, not because of anything he did wrong, but because of what he went through at that school back then. I still know him today. Thirty five years later, he sleeps with a .45 under his pillow. Don't walk up behind him and touch him, unless you want to see him break down again.

There were quite a few of us who didn't get the trauma of that place treated through mental health until way later in life. Some are still coping. Some may never recover. Local government won't help. It's a Christian school. How dare any of us heathens complain.

I saw where the principal/preacher that was the source of all that bat shit bullshit had set up shop to take over a church somewhere in Tennessee a couple years ago. Yes, I check to see where he goes every once in a while. Call me paranoid, but I'm just glad he is not in my hometown any more. If he ever comes back, I prefer to be aware to I can watch out. If I see that man again, it'll be years more therapy. I don't want to have to go through all the memories and trauma again.

Not everyone has the same experience in private schools, but the thing is that not everyone wants their tax dollars to go to private schools that teach the way the one I went to did. I know I don't.

I don't really care if parents can afford to send their kids to the school of their choice. That is their decision and their life. It doesn't affect me one way or another.

It's when federal tax dollars go to schools like the private school I went to, when I, personally, start having serious problems with it.

Without regulations, and strict adherence to those regulations, of how far they can go with the punishment, dogma, and whack-a-doodle doctrine, federal money should not go to the private schools, period, imnsho.

[seabeyond]

38. i think it is even beyond private school. seems that the idea a true middle class that can afford

private school is the issue.

that a person should not be able to afford private or anything else for that matter. that we all must be dirt poor to be on the same playing field. the person at 60k a year is the enemy as well as the person at 200k as well as the top 1%, be my enemy.

[Pholus]

42. Not at all, the issue is the people who think that...

their responsibility to education ends with their own child's education. Have your private schools. Just don't cry to everyone about how unfair it is that "you have to pay twice." You're not.

[seabeyond]

44. my kids are in public, but what a pitiful post. the point is, if this woman had said, she can no

longer put money into her retirement fund, people would be up in arms that AT LEAST she had money in a retirement fun. it is an anoamosity to anyone that is not living the life of poor to another extent.

i am a strong advocate of the public schools and teachers. i think is is ridiculous the blame that is being placed on teachers. it is not the issue and not the problem. a world of stupid.

but the posters on this board angry at a woman that has kids in private, are beyond the issue of education

[Pholus]

48. Really? No, I think I would have been angry if she had been dissing on "dreadful" public retirement

I'm definitely not angry about the concept of private schools. I want an educated populace. I also am not against private retirement plans. I want a healthy senior population.

Of course, I want both of those FOR ALL US Citizens, not just those who can pay. That differentiates our apparent positions here.

The attitudes of privacy proponents are that they are opting out of failed systems. They're not failed as much as that they have a harder job -- serving everyone. Charter schools in AZ? They get to pick and choose the students. They had BETTER have a higher quality. Honestly, they should be doing twice as well comparatively and they're not so what is THEIR problem?

The biggest failure IMHO is that posts like this do not engage beyond self interest. If there is a problem with public schools, help them out!

I'm not a public school teacher but I take an interest in how my public schools function. It's the key to a functioning democracy.

[seabeyond]

60. i have kids in the system. and i am a part of that system, getting the kids the best education

i am doing my part. and that is the difference between you and i. i have been volunteer in the system for 12 yrs. a parent that participates and volunteers and supports.

my kids do well in the system. they take on the responsibility for their education, not whine about someone else not doing it for them.

the issue people are having with the question asked is she may "appear" to have more than they, and they are angry at her.

[Pholus]

63. The original post made it clear that it was a sacrifice to go private.

Your reading that somehow there is envy involved is misguided. What IS involved is this drumbeat that public education is irrevocably broken, which centers in the OP with the word "dreadful." The story itself is positive, the context? Not so much.

Public education needs to be a right. Privatization of the system just makes it another profit center and if this continues I imagine that my child will be required to plan for her children's education the way she needs to plan for a house and retirement. It will come at a cost -- the cost probably being the higher education of her children. In that way, it will represent the forcing of my family's social class downward because no sane person expects wages to keep growth with the expense that this would add. Which the people at the top won't care about as long as they're making obscene loads of money off their new private K-12 education system. I fully expect it to come about like HMO's -- which were pretty nifty when they started -- but then once they became entrenched they all of a sudden were not such a great deal.

And, not that I appreciate "mine is bigger than yours contests" but I'll bite this time: I was a regular volunteer at my local public schools for more than 10 years before I even had children. Out of interest. And responsibility. So where is the difference you're talking about?

[XemaSab]

82. I don't think public schools are irrevocably broken

but I think it will take a huge amount of money and parent involvement to make the Oakland public school system a healthy, nurturing environment.

I had the misfortune of being in that school system, and I think I know better than you do the extent of the problems there.

One good teacher and one involved parent cannot solve problems caused by generational poverty in a year.

[Pholus]

90. So we are on the same page.

However, I see plenty of posters who seem to be ready to toss public education for a private system that will not be an improvement.

[MadHound]

43. Don't hate private schools, hate the concept of morphing our public school system into a private one

Which is what this administration, and the past one, are aiming to do.

[Pholus]

51. Great quote from C&L night! Privatizers have goals other than the public good in mind.

"If you don't trust Bill Gates to sell you an operating system, why would you trust him to sell you an education system?"

Linux all the way....

[stray cat]

45. Quality of education isn't as important as union goals

[CreekDog]

46. that's a talking point not a discussion point

and it's BS too.

[Pholus]

47. What's up with all the union hate?

It's almost as if you were perhaps.....paid....to insert that connection.

[olegramps]

50. Go post on some nitwit board with the Tea-baggers.

[laureloak]

52. I found that private schools served the top and bottom of

the class best while public school worked best for those in the middle.

[woo me with science]

68. That's interesting to me. My experience is just the opposite.

Our public schools have amazing programs for the top achievers, including AP and International Baccalaureate programs and incredible science and language opportunities. The schools also have tremendously well-designed and equipped vocational training programs for kids who aren't academically inclined. If you are in the middle, however, there are an awful lot of kids who fall through the cracks.

Test scores and what I've heard from a lot of students and teachers suggest that the private schools around here do a better job of providing a solid education to the middle.

[laureloak]

70. Public school stagnated my shy gifted child so we moved to a

private school. The private school had an extremely challenging college prep curriculum as well as an outstanding program for those with learning problems.

Not all private schools are alike but this one did a fantastic job with my child. We had 9 wonderful years of classrooms with 15 students max, happy teachers, and the chance to play every sport the school offered. Standards were high, the work was hard, and students couldn't get away with anything, but getting full scholarship at a new ivy was the end reward.

Oh, and did I mention that the private school gave us generous financial aid all 9 years.

[LWolf]

53. I haven't seen any private school hate.

I've seen anger over the efforts to privatize PUBLIC schools. Legitimate anger.

Private schools? Some are fine. Some aren't. They aren't the issue, though. Why try to drag them into it?

[uncommon]

56. Most schools in the Catholic system, at least in this area, are completely

inadequate. They have limited amounts of technology for the kids to use, they don't follow the curriculum set forth by the state, and their teachers are ridiculously underpaid.

I went to great public schools and so far my daughter's public school experience has been excellent.

[rug]

61. This, for one thing.

Q. What is the tuition for 2009-10?
A. To attract families of all socio-economic levels, St. Paul's offers sliding-scale tuition. Full tuition for 2009-10 for Grades K-5 is $19,300. Full tuition for Grades 6-8 is $20,800. Also required is a building assessment fee of $200 per student. In the 2008-09 school year, St. Paul's awarded $1.6 million in tuition assistance to 39% of our students.

There's a lot of ideology used to justify this.

[lunatica]

62. Growing up in Mexico I went to private schools too

When my family moved back to the US I went to public schools. My education in private schools had already covered everything I took in High School. The US public education system is why we have the teabaggerati as far as I'm concerned.

And if someone feels the need to pile on me that's fine. I don't care because those who defend the lousy education you get in the US public schools (compared to schools in other developed countries) have only known that education system.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

64. Is it private school hate that bothers you, or lack of support for VOUCHERS

at taxpayers' expense for private schools?

There are plenty of reasons to oppose government vouchers for private schools--

Eighty percent of "private" schools are really religious schools, many of which indoctrinate children in "creationism" and other sectarian nonsense.

Private schools can exclude children arbitrarily and include only children whose parents are involved and value education highly, the very children who would do well in any case.

Vouchers are worth the most to parents who can afford to supplement them with their own money and would be paying the full private school cost without vouchers. They take public money away from public school students and give it primarily to students whose parents never would allow them to attend public schools.

Vouchers were devised in the South to fund all-white "Christian academies" when desegregation of public schools could no longer be prevented, and continue to appeal most to parents who want racial class and religious segregation for their children.

[madmom]

67. "And I had a virtual full-ride scholarship to my school.", there in lies the problem. See there are

kids out there who are not considered poor but are not wealthy either.There is no "free money" for them. Same thing goes for later in life, when trying to go to college.


On another note my niece was one who went to a religious private school back in the 80's-90's. She was/is dumber than owl shit. She can barely read, can't tell time without a digital clock, must use a calculator for simple math. BUT she also has a full ride to college ..why?.... because she is an unwed mother (her choice).

[Pholus]

92. HMOs and school privatizers will use the same ways to break in a market.

Do a few cool things for PR, wait to raise market share, cut services to profit. I remember my HMO sending me a free bike helmet because a survey said I biked and head injuries are preventable with a helmet. "Wow, what a cool thing to do -- these guys are smart." Then they saturated the market and we had to deal with the omnipresent "HMO Nurse" who second guesses every treatment a doctor proposes from a cost-benefit point of view.

Now health care is broken pretty nicely in times of record insurance company profits. And we're ready to do the same thing to our public schools....

[blondeatlast]

97. Perfect analogy. PERFECT. this should be posted as it's own thread. nt

[Tsiyu]

69. We have a lovely Episcopal Boarding/Day school here

They love to sign the poor kids up, and act all charitable. Then, just before graduation, they go on a witch hunt and "purge" the poor local kids.

I know a half dozen kids who were kicked out right before graduation, even with parents who paid a boatload. Some of these kids tested out of the ballpark and have gone on to college, but with a GED rather than a private school diploma as the "elite" Episcopal school won't issue them one.

I know another kids who "graduated" but his family is too poor to afford the $500 diploma. He, too is facing GED "graduation."

Oh, yeah. Those private schools love diversity...and poor people.....uh huh

[blueamy66]

71. Went to Catholic school for all of my years....

awesome experience....

My Dad worked a full-time job and my Mom worked as well....they made it work.

I would thank them daily for the experience, if they were still alive.

[AngryAmish]

74. If you didn't want hate why did you come to DU?

It is what we are about. Deal with it.

[blondeatlast]

75. "Privatization," not "Private." As long as my tax dollars don't fund private or privatized schools,

send those kids wherever you like.

But don't make me pay for it.

[pitohui]

77. maybe not all are wealthy but virtually all are racists (or their parents are)

in my opinion the growth of private schools should not have been allowed, although i'm still not sure what legal means could have been used to stop them

i saw w. my own eyes what private schools for the nonwealthy were for -- as soon as desegregation was passed and bussing commenced, then suddenly a whole bunch of white middle class kids whose parents would have never found that $250 a month you mention started sending their kids to private schools

i don't doubt your class had a token black kid, of course, before desegregation, so did our public schools have a TOKEN black kid...what white middle class parents objected to was "groups" of black kids, black culture as it were, being anywhere near their lily white brats

hence those who could afford it fled to the private schools, but at the end of the day, it was about racism, not about education

some very fine public schools were then systematically defunded and destroyed and now are pretty much scary dumps so it feeds on itself, vicious circle

jefferson parish louisiana, for example, had very well regarded public schools in the 1970s but after years of white flight to the private schools, they're pretty ghetto and dangerous now

you may say "well my school was not a haven for racists" but it prob. was and you just didn't see it, you saw only that you had a good school, you DIDN'T see that having your "good" private school meant that the public school was stuck only w. the bottom of the barrel -- private schools pick and skim the cream (those who can afford it and those who are the most talented) and public schools then get stuck w. the most difficult cases and then by association a degree from that public high school is no longer of value

if i tell a young person where i attended high school (once a v. well regarded one) they think i was dodging gunfire and drug dealers in the hallways, a high school diploma from that school has lost all value

so yes people hate when your good fortune means the rest of us are shoved down in the gutter

i don't blame you, you must save your selves, and your parents wanted to save their children, but it is what it is...money that is poured into private schools and all the yelling for "vouchers" and the defunding of public schools means that public schools, once the envy of the world, are now dangerous, dirty, and terrible...it was a theft from the public to allow this to happen

if i ruled america i would close all religious schools immediately, remove all tax deductions for the religions, and ALL would be required to attend PUBLIC school, in this way, the funding would be returned to the people, not just to the wealthy and the very few cherry picked "talented"

but at the end of the day, we saw different sides of this -- my parents had nothing, so i saw what happened to those of us who got "left behind" in the public schools and i also saw that it was plain and simple racism that caused those other families to withdraw from the public schools -- the timing was too suspect, desegregation comes to that school and bam! suddenly they're all about the private schools? oh please make it a little believable!

DO YOU REALLY HONESTLY THINK WE WEREN'T TAUGHT ALL THAT SHIT IN PUBLIC SCHOOL? DO YOU REALLY THINK WE DIDN'T HAVE FIELD TRIPS ETC???? public schools used to be funded, and kids used to actually study world events and go out and "do things," you'd prob. stand amazed at some of the programs i had access to, such as week long camp in the mountains (for fifth graders!) in public school -- we could have, USED TO DID HAVE, all that stuff in public school...you say "we wrote stories, did art, put on plays, made sculptures and maps, played math games, listened to stories" -- for fuck sake, no offense, EVERY public school kid used to have to do all that..in ELEMENTARY school to boot...

[XemaSab]

84. You clearly don't know anything about my school

The "token black kids" were Rene, Shannon, Rasaan, Erica, Erika, Krisso, Maceo, and Zakiya.

The "token Asian kids" were Marisa and Michelle.

The "token Jewish kid" was Delia.

And that leaves the "token white kids" of Chris, Jesse, Jesse, Michael, Megan, Megan, Brian, Annie, Molly, Sara, Sarah, and me.

(It was the 80's. It was all Jesses, Ericas, Megans, and Sarahs. :P )

But yeah, clearly the parents of the white kids sent their kids to my school because they were racists, and not because they wanted us to get a good education and (haha) liberal indoctrination at the same time.

[deaniac21]

78. I didn't know you could get a virtual scholarship.

[TexasObserver]

91. Private schools = segregation

That segregation is usually based upon some combination of (1) racism, (2) homophobia, (3) theism, (4) classism, or (5) economics. When private schools kick out the children of gay couples, when private schools kick out the children of atheists, they're showing the biases that underlie many private schools.

Private schools are the reason public schools continually struggle, as they provide havens for the children of people who don't want their children mixing with the public at large. They might learn things the parents don't want the child exposed to, such as other cultures, other religions, etc.

I could have sent my three to private schools. Many of my colleagues did. I chose not to do so, and my adult kids are better for it.

When one separates their kids from the public with private schools and private clubs, they create kids who think that's ok, and are likely to perpetuate it. The "I've got mine, you get yours" attitude is not the one I wanted my kids to learn.

[kwassa]

106. Some private schools make serious efforts to create a diverse student body

and give scholarships if necessary to make that happen.

Private schools can certainly be segregated schools; they seemed to be used for that very reason in the South, for instance.

[Dappleganger]

109. Agreed.

My mother taught middle school English at a local Catholic school which thrived due to the many busing problems in Norfolk. My sister and I rec'd free tuition so that's where we were sent. I remember my father saying that "over my dead body will these girls go to a nigger school." (no kidding) My sister and I both remember how during b-ball games especially, the racist words were slung so easily against any other teams who had African Americans on them. We had a few "token" AA's, my father said that they weren't real because they "acted white." Again, reinforcing the racist overtones of the school and of whites in that city.

We grew up in a mostly-white neighborhood but after about 5 years we sold the house and moved into one which was nearly all military (active and retired). Dad said it was because our old neighborhood was "going black." We couldn't believe it as our neighbors were all so sweet, no matter the color. I still miss the neighborhood and wished we never had moved. Some how moving to a place which was all white made Dad feel like he was better or a higher class. Which one, I don't know.

In our sports league it was all private schools: several larger Catholic schools (like ours), a smaller one, several wealthy academies and a bunch of christian schools. Most every one of these schools had been started by the efforts of parents to keep their kids out of black schools (from being bused across town into the projects, they would say). Later when busing was stopped, nobody wanted to admit that most of the predominately white schools were actually pretty bad, save a couple in the wealthy neighborhoods. I always felt like we missed out and both my sister and I used to say to each other how much we wished we had gone to public school.

While I do believe that it's good for people to have choices, as a whole I am more keen on why most private schools were begun--to avoid forced busing and mixing with "those people." Our four kids are products of public schools and I'm proud that they were able to experience something which I never had a chance to.

[TexasObserver]

111. Thank you for a very insightful personal history on the topic.

Would private schools be able to exist if they didn't have the "I don't want my kids around those kind of people" as the engine?

[laughingliberal]

93. No problem with private schools. BIG problem with diverting money from public education to them. nt

[blondeatlast]

96. +143,856 nt

[KamaAina]

94. I bounced back and forth between public and private for years.

And I experienced the whole gamut: dreadful public, good public, good private, and yes, dreadful private.

[Swamp Rat]

116. Same here

Like a ping pong ball

[mrmpa]

95. difference between private schools and charter schools

Tuition is paid by parents (scholarship money is often available) for those attending private schools. Tax money is used to run charter schools, often for profit. I attended Catholic grade school, high school and University. I also attended a private non-Catholic university. I am a public school teacher who is vehemently anti charter school.

[Greyhound]

104. Well there are private schools and then there are private schools.

I'm guessing St Paul's isn't exactly similar to Exeter Academy, or Bill Gates primary, Lakeside School.

[Capitalocracy]

108. So you're saying the solution is for everyone

to get scholarships to go that one awesome school?

We desperately need to improve our public school system, not abandon it for privatization. That's the only "hate" for private schools I have.

[Fire1]

110. Perhaps your public school would not have been so "dreadful"

if funding had been adequate enough to have 10-15 students in a classroom.

[madfloridian]

112. Let's see now. My public school classes did basically the same things.

Many public school teachers are most creative with their teaching, though the intent now seems to be to put them down and keep them in their places.

I think you misunderstand. I don't care who goes to private schools, I just don't want to pay for it out of my taxes.

I believe in public education delivered in public schools. But in Florida I am forced to give my tax money to help poor and needy children go to private schools when they would do just as well in public schools.

We had in our classes "diversity, creativity, and social justice."

We had gardens, planted trees, read about faraway places and things.

The kids I taught were every bit as educated as any in private schools here. They often hire the public school rejects because does NOT require certification of private school teachers.

[DFW]

115. I don't hate private schools--just the ones I went to

This was in the sixties, and I hear that both of the ones I went to have vastly improved,
done practically a 180° in their attitude toward their students and their curriculum.

Maybe so. The Obamas are sending their kids to one of them. But when I went there, they
both took pride in harassing students that showed the slightest bit of non-conformity, and
that included me. The other one graduated George W. Bush, so you can imagine how well I
fit in there (i.e. not at all).

But I sent one of my two girls to a private boarding school in the USA for her last 2 years
of high school, and she loved it, so no stereotype fits or is permanent. The fact that it
was in Hawai'i and had progressive teachers might have something to do with it, too.........

[Swamp Rat]

117. I spent 1 year in an Episcopal school

It was one of the best years of my life, and I feel very grateful for it.

eom