Apple gets highest score ever in satisfaction, holds off PCs

[onehandle]

Apple today managed to get its best-ever score on the American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI) and maintain its lead over Windows PCs. Happiness with Macs climbed from 84 points last year to an all-time high of 86 this year. It has a nine-point lead over the maximum 77 point score for Windows PCs, the largest gap of any category in the ACSI.

Windows brands did improve, but not fast enough to close the gap. Acer, Dell and HP tied for the 77 point score. The aggregate of smaller PC builders like Sony and Toshiba also reached 77, although HP's Compaq label maintained its poor reputation with the last place score of 74.

Most of the improvement on the Windows side was attributed to the switch to Windows 7. Vista had been considered a liability for Microsoft even late into its life through its reputation for incompatibility and poor performance on some systems. Attempts to improve customer support may have also borne fruit

http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/09/21/apple.tops.acsi.index.while.pc.users.climb.up

[MilesColtrane]

1. .

:popcorn:

[Dawgs]

2. Could spending 3 times as much as a PC have something to do with the satisfaction #?

I know I'd be more inclined to give a higher rating if I bought something that wasn't worth the price.

[tridim]

3. Or about 5 times more if you build your own PC.

How do I report my satisfaction since I don't own a Chinese built, corporate-profit-generating PC?

My satisfaction is 100% BTW, as it has been since the mid-90's.

[onehandle]

4. Please tell us where your motherboard (the computer part of your computer) was made.

And the name of the non-corporate elves that made it.

[tridim]

6. Taiwan.

But my computer was built in America, by me. Unlike Apple, Dell, Acer, etc.

[onehandle]

7. I must have missed the manufacturer name for your motherboard. Please provide.

Also the manufacturers of all of the other components of your computer.

I assume it's not just a motherboard.

[tridim]

15. Not sure why it matters, but I currently have an Asus MB..

A generic Geforce video card, and an Emu 1820m audio interface.

All the "American" MB's are still assembled in Tawain. I've been happy with Asus for 10 years, no need to switch.

[onehandle]

20. 'assembled'

'The Asus Hi-Tech Park, located in Suzhou, China, covers 540,000 square meters, roughly the size of 82 soccer fields.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asus

[tridim]

25. Right, most MB's are made in China.

It sucks, but at least the better ones aren't typical Wal-Mart crap.

I'll look for "American assembled" next time.

[hendo]

85. Yes, attack someone

for having computer components that were made in China. You do realize that Macs are made in China as well, right?

[onehandle]

96. That was mentioned already upstream.

All computers, or at least the components of them, are made in China.

That was my point.

[onehandle]

5. So Mac users are dumb and you would go along with the dumbness if you were one of them?

ok...

Maybe being the best for decades has something to do with the decades of highest satisfaction #?

I know I'd be more inclined to give a higher rating if I bought something that was clearly the best and had been for decades.

[4lbs]

8. If Macs were so great as is on their own hardware, why did they make the switch to PC hardware?

They went from using Motorola CPUs to Intel CPUs.

They went from using the NuBus spec to the AGP, PCI and PCI-Express busses.

They went from using SCSI to IDE/SATA for hard drives and optical drives.


I thought PC hardware was inferior to Mac hardware, for "decades" ?

Yet now the current crop of Macs use hardware that originated on the PC platform.


The only real difference between a Mac and PC now is the OS. The hardware is 95% the same.

[onehandle]

9. Easy. To bring the cost down. Which they have.

That is the direction that Steve Jobs went as soon as he returned.

Except the form factor, ease of use, and OS is purely Apple. And that is what satisfies customers.

Not to mention their customer service.


And I said nothing about 'hardware.'

[4lbs]

11. You said that Macs were superior for "decades". Well, up until 6 years ago, Macs were on different

hardware almost entirely.

Thus, that implies that Mac hardware was superior to PC hardware if they were supposedly "superior". You must take the hardware with the software.

If that hardware was superior (which is implied by claiming that Macs were the best for decades), then why even make the switch to PC hardware, cost be damned?

Mac users obviously had little qualms about paying 2x to 3x the price for equivalent hardware to that of a PC right?

[onehandle]

13. 2010: 'Apple gets highest score ever in satisfaction' nt

[4lbs]

14. After they moved to the PC hardware platform. What was wrong with the old hardware platform?

Interesting that the old Mac hardware platform never got these high satisfaction scores.

Right now, the only difference between a Mac and a PC is the OS. Unless you want to include the BIOS chip.

[Pavulon]

47. And the American who takes your call for support. That is worth the cost split

when your shit breaks and you need it fixed or need a person who is not reading a script you find value fast.

[cliffordu]

51. Well, ya, there's that.....

[hendo]

98. The Americans aren't better

they are just easier to understand.

[Pavulon]

121. I had a good rep on my call, but cant speak for

all of them of course.

[cliffordu]

50. The chips they were using ran into the end of the road.

Like what happened with the SPARC stuff from SUN MICRO.

Intel just made more sense....


I started using MACs when they went to OSX, as I am well versed in LINUX and OSX in userspace is basically the same thing.


Windoze is a far distant third to either of them.

I LOVES me some UNIX work a likes.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

167. Didn't Mac also change it's OS core when it changed hardware?

[Dawgs]

53. According to you.

I've worked with both PC's and MAC's over the years and I've always preferred my PC.

[Hosnon]

138. Yep. nt.

[shanti]

23. well

if you'd bought THREE laptops in 5 years that had the hard drive fail, you'd understand. i got tired of throwing away my money. with my macbook, i won't be doing that again!

[frylock]

31. why didn't you just replace the HDD?

i've had hard disk failures. i usually just replace the hard disk, not go out to buy another system.

[Dappleganger]

37. You'd be surprised how many folks do just that.

It's a real shame as I hate seeing people waste money they probably don't have to throw away.

[EOTE]

101. Or worse.

I assisted someone with a virus on their computer. I removed the virus and put AVG on the computer for virus protection. A few months later, she had another infection, so I went to assist again and found out that she had removed AVG because she didn't like how it looked. After I removed the virus that time around, she said to me: "I swear, if this happens again, I'm getting another computer." People seem to think that viruses and such are due to faulty hardware. So few people understand that hardware doesn't really degrade in performance over time and their computer slowdowns and such are usually due to how they treat their computers.

[shanti]

122. wasn't worth it

n/t

[Dappleganger]

36. Sorry to burst your bubble...

but Apple uses the same drives that PC's do. Hard drives go bad, it's just a fact of life. I've replaced the HD in my old MBP three times already, it just happens. Now if there's a cooling issue which is pushing the drive to overheat, that's another story.

[TonyMontana]

39. Marketing. It works.

The entire Apple phenomenon goes to show just how far good marketing can actually convince people to pay 3 times more for a brand.

It's the same reason people buy Nike shoes and use Google instead of Bing.

There is nothing even marginally better in a Mac as compared to a PC. Everything a Mac does, a PC does. In many cases these days, a PC does it better.

[Dappleganger]

41. What you wrote

has nothing to do with hard drives going bad.

I know people who plunked lots of money on expensive Sony shit (computers--PC/tv's/etc.) all because of it being Sony brand name. They were stung almost every single time with horrific customer service (and let's not forget the amazing ROOTKIT fiasco). So it's not just an Apple-namebrand issue, it's with other name brands too.

PC does *what* better? Take your wife out dinner and dancing??

[Pavulon]

48. Except have an American answer your first call to support.

I beat the SHIT out of machines traveling. MBP has been dropped, and beaten to shit. The IBM ( a decent machine) I replaced had given up the ghost in broken plastic. The current one just has big dents. I run virtual machines on a mac to do the few things I need a pc for. The rest runs better on a posix os.

Any number of linux distros work well too.

[Dawgs]

54. I've never needed support for the hundreds of PC's I've worked on over the years.

The only time I ever needed support was for software.

And why would anyone beat the shit out of their computer and still expect it to work?

[Pavulon]

60. I design tooling for companies all over the world. So when customs

drops my machines or I expect a plc controller to run in a filthy environment I run a linux kernel to cover that. I hit platinum every year for 4 years. Equipment gets broken.

Over the years I have dealt with TS from HP, Compaq (back in the day), Dell, Cisco, Juniper, EMC, Hitachi, IBM, Apple, and a shit tons of others. Including Z class mainframes that cost millions of dollars, guess what, they all break. Having a capable person on the other end is valuable.

[Dawgs]

65. I work with PLC controllers too, but that's not what we're talking about.

We're talking about a MAC laptop that costs $1500 versus a just as powerful PC that costs $500.

In your situation maybe support is important. With the 95% of other people that are not high-end users, the difference in tech support is small.

[Pavulon]

69. For my mom, its important.

important enough that I pay the difference between a dell and mac book. She can get issues fixed without calling me in Brazil.

[shanti]

123. it did overheat, yes

but i thought all laptops overheated...

[Dawgs]

52. I've had the same <$500 laptop for the past 5 years.

I've upgraded the memory, the hard drive, and the OS.

It has never failed.

I could two PC laptops for the price of one MAC, and Windows 7 is every bit as stable as the MAC OS.

[Statistical]

90. If you;d bought THREE cars in last 5 years when they had a tire blow, you'd understand ....

(well know you wouldn't because that would be stupid)

Next time....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136565

$44, a phillips head screwed drive, and 5 minutes of time vs $1200 - $2000 mac book book.

[shanti]

124. $900 on ebay

brand new. to me, it has been a bargain! i like the mac os better too.

[shanti]

125. it's not like

i didn't try to fix it, but there were other problems (overheating) that caused the hard drives to fail. i even bought a new hard drive, and it still didn't power on. :shrug:

[Pavulon]

46. NO having a person in California take your call vs a person in Bombay

take your call for dell is EXACTLY why I will NEVER buy another machine not supported in the US.

[Dawgs]

55. Is that the best argument you have for paying at twice as much for your MAC?

Never need support for a PC. Too bad you do for your overpriced MAC.

[Pavulon]

61. PC, you mean DELL, IBM (communovo), HP

I have built more DL380's than tricks turned in phuket. They ALL break. For me, I can deal with any of it with an EULA that requires they fix it on my call.

Now my parents who dont have engineering degrees and dont write G code for a living do better talking to a person who knows their shit vs a person I have to lead down the garden path to fix my shit.

[Dawgs]

64. What is your point?

We're not talking about building high-end equipment that needs support. We're talking about a MAC computer versus any PC.

No one is arguing that they don't break. We're arguing that non-American support is not enough to go with an expensive MAC versus a PC.

[Pavulon]

67. For me, i just use a bit of social engineering to get the part I need

now my mom, it actually makes a difference if the person on the other end is capable of making a smart call. "timmy" from bombay in a shop with a 80% a month turnover is not capable of that.

[frylock]

81. lenovo support is in georgia..

i call them fairly frequently.

[alfredo]

109. Georgia the state or Georgia the country?

[alfredo]

87. I paid $699 for my Mac. So I could get as good a computer

for $233?

[EOTE]

102. More likely around $300.

I'm guessing you got a Mac Mini? You can find Dells and others on Slickdeals.net all the time for around $300 which are every bit, if not more capable than the Mac Mini. Plus, it will be a hell of a lot easier to upgrade the PC.

[alfredo]

108. It was easy to add memory to the Mini, just follow the directions.

Everything else spec-ed out just fine for my needs. I'm not a gamer or movie editor, so I didn't need the extra VRAM. Because I have hearing problems, I needed a quiet computer, that won't make background noises. the Mini and the iPad fill that need.

I would even accept a Dell even as a gift. Michael Dell is a right wing asshole. I do my best to buy Blue, and Apple is a very Blue company.

[EOTE]

110. Not just memory. GPU, CPU... everything.

You can get even bargain basement PCs that come equipped with 4 gigs of RAM nowadays. Not only is the PC more likely to have ALL of its parts upgraded, it's a lot cheaper and easier to do so on a PC.

[Scout]

111. and if i don't need or want those things, so the fuck what?

cheap and easy isn't the be-all and end-all...

[EOTE]

113. So you've just spent 2x or more on a less capable machine.

And you're well within your rights to do so.

[alfredo]

114. I just wanted something to plugin and get to work. My days of

digging around and playing with the internals are over. I just want something that works. I like that it is smaller than a cigar box and draws little energy. I can unplug it, carry it upstairs and plug it into the TV and work from there. The compact design was another selling point. I can carry everything I need on at tea tray.

OSX is solid as a rock. I don't have to worry about upgrades, nagware, and other horrors of the PC world. I like that it is UNIX based. I'm an old Linux fanboy. I use GIMP and Inkscape nearly every day.

BTW, go to the photography forum to see my images. All post processing was done with GIMP.

[EOTE]

115. Upgrades are a horror?

Nagware is only on your computer if it's installed, and Macs are susceptible to nagware as well. If you don't want to upgrade, you don't have to, but it's a nice option.

As far as portability goes, I recently bought a netbook for $200 and doubled the RAM for $40. For $240, it's about as portable and functional a PC as I could want. It runs Windows 7 Ultimate extremely well and if I ever need a performance boost in the future, I'll upgrade to an SSD. Even as it is, it runs CS5 fairly well.

[alfredo]

120. I guess I have a long memory of working with Windows at work.

I was able to shift my duties to where I worked mostly in DOS, and found that less irritating.

On OSX there is no nagware other than if you do something that needs a higher permission (password prompt), like running some scripts in the terminal. They don't try to be everything to everybody, so system bloat is not a problem. Tight integration between hardware and software makes Macs relatively trouble free. It's been years since I've had to install a driver for anything.

[EOTE]

136. "It's been years since I've had to install a driver for anything."

Then it's been years since you've installed any new hardware, because hardware is what requires drivers. It's been a few months since I last installed a driver, because that was the last time I installed new hardware in my computer. Mac users may find the comparative lack of upgradability in Macs a good thing, but I like to be able to make my computer cutting edge without completely replacing it.

And I'm assuming now that by "nagware", you are referring to Vista's UAC? Well, you should know that can very easily be turned off, and it's pretty much absent in Windows 7.

[alfredo]

139. It took MS nearly a decade to respond to OSX. They made

so many missteps along the way, it is hard to trust their products. Macs aren't perfect, but I don't have second thoughts about installing updates and security fixes.

And if I want to run Windows, I can by either booting into it with Boot Camp, or run it under virtualization. Same goes for Linux. With X11 installed, I can run a long list of Linux apps.

Does Windows 7 have a terminal you can access?

[EOTE]

140. If I wanted to run OSX (I don't), I very well could on my PC.

As for terminal, are you referring to telnet? It doesn't have one integrated, but if I wanted to use one, I could. And I've had Windows 7 for almost 2 years now and haven't had a single security issue with it. It's been restarted maybe a half dozen times in those two years and most of those times weren't due to updates. For my uses, Windows 7 is the best operating system I've ever used, probably by a long shot. It games well, it multitasks incredibly well and it takes advantage of all the latest and greatest hardware offered. I haven't had a single shutdown or system error since it's been installed.

[alfredo]

141. I shut mine down to save energy. I have a PS2 for gaming

that's why I don't need to have the cutting edge. That's why I went from a Pro model to a consumer model. It has more than enough power for me.

[LoZoccolo]

107. I think you're at least partially right; people do not want to admit to wasting money.

I bought a Mac and tried it for a while and couldn't really find out the big deal. I liked that it could sleep and wake quickly but that was one of the only things that stood out.

[AnArmyVeteran]

10. I've used both & have no idea why people buy PCs.

Other than the cheaper prices I don't understand anyone who would buy a PC. In my opinion they are junk. I've been using computers for 25 years and I find PCs to be horribly inadequate. If people started with a Mac they would never like a PC. I started using PCs and thought how laborious they were. Typing in lines after lines of long 30 character commands made every task take so long. I got tired of having to reinvent the wheel each time I used a PC.

A major corporation I worked for went to an all Mac environment and when they did they were able to get rid of 75% of their tech support. Macs are much more efficient and easier to work with. They are also not prone to constant crashes like PCs are. I have four Macs now and I don't have virus programs on any of them. I've never had a virus on a Mac but I know PCs are plagued with them.

I know PCers will probably have a different point if view, but it's probably because they have never used a real computer like a Mac :).

[alterfurz]

17. similar experience here

"Once you go Mac you never go back"

[4lbs]

18. I guess you haven't used a PC lately, or you are extremely computer illiterate.

My 72 year old father has a Windows Vista laptop (not even Win 7, but Vista!), and it took him just a few weeks to fully get the hang of most everything.

Now he web browses, emails, watches videos on Youtube, watches DVD/XviD movies, plays music, and plays a game or two on the thing, all without having to call me 10 times day.

The only thing I really had to do was attach an actual mouse, since he hated using the laptop's touchpad.

I get maybe a call a month asking one thing or the other.

[tridim]

19. What was the last 30-character command you typed in on a PC?

And when?

And also please describe your last "contant crash" issue.

I'm thinking you haven't used a PC since about 1990. That's 20 years ago, things have changed.

[AnArmyVeteran]

27. I still use a friend's PC and to do simple jibs your fingers have to do contortions.

On a Mac it's simple to use commands from the keyboard but to do the same thing on a PC requires you stretch your fingers to almost impossible positions to do the same tasks. Every time I use a PC I wonder who would ever want to buy one. On Macs to do a software install from a disc you insert the disk and make one click. On a PC I've seen 10-20 lines of instructions to do the same thing. I could go on and on but a PC user would never understand until they finally break down and get a real computer. Macs are very intuitive, while PCs can be nightmares. A Mac has one button by the touch pad but a PC has two when one can do it all. From searching to using programs Macs are FAR superior to PCs. Of course, if people like using a lot of extra time to do things then I highly recommend PCs.

[frylock]

33. how do you "right-click" with that one mouse button?

[Dappleganger]

35. You must be kidding.

That no-right-click argument has been invalid for YEARS.

[frylock]

40. how so?

please enlighten me.

[Dappleganger]

42. Right-click was enable with early Tiger versions...

so you're pretty damn late with that argument. I can right-click on my Cube (2001).

[frylock]

45. my post was addressed to the person bragging about the lack of two buttons on their mouse..

so i ask again, how do THEY right-click?

[Scout]

70. i didn't NEED a right click function on a mac ... i could do everything

i needed to do with a 1-button mouse.

so i guess 2 buttons on the mouse isn't such a big fucking deal.

[frylock]

80. good for you!

i wasn't fucking asking you, now was i?

[Scout]

100. ROFL! poor baby!

someone DARED to post on a discussion thread!!

[cleanhippie]

103. Buwahahahaha! Now THATS a meltdown.

Were you laying on the floor kicking and pounding your fists when you posted that?

[Occulus]

133. Humans can live well with only one kidney

so I guess 2 kidneys in the body isn't such a big fucking deal.

You only need two buttons when you're doing something complicated enough (I'm looking at you, Blender) to need them.

Another thing: the second button is often used for context menus. Right-clicking a link in Firefox, for example, allows you to bookmark the link or copy its location, but a right-click on the page itself leads to a different menu entirely. That capability is indeed a very big deal, as it allows for faster and greater application/OS functionality. In the aforementioned Blender, right-click is an instant undo/cancel current action, and it's absolutely necessary for a wide variety of reasons and techniques, both convenient and practical.

I think it was Jobs himself who once implied that two buttons on a mouse are too confusing for Mac users. If that's really the case (it's not, of course), his users are by his own admission easily confused.

[Scout]

163. i just find it incredibly LAUGHABLE that someone thinks right-clicking or not

right-clicking is some kind of determination that windoze machines are "better" than macs.

i was doing high-end digital prepress, in 4 color (not stupid fucking desktop publishing) and we got along just fine without having to right click. if you CAN'T use a computer efficiently and productively without right-click, then i wonder about your proficiency.

i don't care if steve jobs said anything about 2 buttons or not :shrug:

[PatGund]

119. Earlier....

I was right-clicking on 2-button ADB mice on my Macs from about system 8 on.

It's nothing new on the Mac, yet I still see PC people complain that you can't right-click on the Mac - and then get all defensive when I show them that yes, you can.

[KansasVoter]

131. +1

[Cronus Protagonist]

165. +1000

Mac users buy a BRAND, not a computer. A STYLE, not a tool. And they'll swallow any marketing slogan Apple can come up with because they ARE the brand once they've bought into it, and their personhood is at stake.

PC users on the other hand don't have the same emotional connection to what is essentially just a tool.

[onehandle]

22. I had a couple of decent IBM branded PCs a few years ago.

They crashed and got the occasional virus of course, but that was Windows' fault. Otherwise they were made pretty well.

But a Mac IS the top in satisfaction and the surveys confirm this.

And dude, I'd never buy a Dell.

[AnArmyVeteran]

28. Michael Dell & Gov Rick Perry have a long history of dubious ties.

[AnArmyVeteran]

29. Michael Dell & Gov Rick Perry have a long history of dubious ties.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. We got both

the PC has gone for virus removal... it IS a gaming rig... and there are not enough games on MAC...

But for SERIOUS work hubby uses the Mac.

I use a netbook for travel though. I don't like to be much of a target. And yes, cheap puter is good for travel...

[TonyMontana]

30. LOL Typical Apple drone

You guys all sound the same.

It really is a cult.

[frylock]

32. i used to support macs for the school district..

i have 8 systems on my network at home. none of them are mac.

[Dappleganger]

34. Used PC's for years

before switching to Mac. We still have two PC's at home, and my god they take so much time to take care of that I finally swore them off (and now ds handles those). I am also sold on Apple customer service.

[rbixby]

38. Wow, if your company required so much PC support

They're obviously doing something wrong. You buy crappy computers, you get crappy results, that's always been my experience. I do about 50/50 Mac/PC at my company, and for the most part, people are more satisfied with their PCs for office use, because of frequent compatibility issues when going from Mac to PC, virtually everything business related is done on a PC now (strange, because Macs will open almost ANY PC file, but will frequently not save files in a PC readable format).
In my experience, both platforms have problems, neither is perfect. The Macs we use have trouble, just like the PCs do, but the main issue is that the software just isn't there for a lot of things on the Mac side. You also don't have a whole lot of options in swapping parts on a Mac, since even though they use same architecture, their video cards and memory tend to be proprietary, which means having to invest in two separate groups of spare parts.
All in all, Mac, PC, its all the same shit, they just look a little different. In my experience one isn't any better than another, except that if you need to really dig into an Apple, you need to learn Linux, whereas on the PC side, its all GUI based now.

[Dawgs]

56. I've used a MAC and had to replace it with a PC.

The PC was faster, cheaper, never crashed, and still has never gotten a virus.

And your argument about MACs being more efficient makes no sense at all. It can only be as efficient as the software that is written for it. Everything else, like hardware, is equal.

[Scout]

68. +10,000 n/t

[Stargazer09]

78. I feel the same way

I grew up programming the Apple II series, but I ended up switching to PCs when Apple went through their rough times and Macs weren't supported by the software developers. I wasn't very happy with windows, but at the time, it was all I had.

I switched back in 1998, when I bought a Wall Street PowerBook. After that, I've bought one relatively cheap PC laptop for my specialized business software; it's not much more than a tax deduction to me, and I hate the stupid thing. At least I can honestly tell the IRS that it's used 100% for business. I've owned six Macs since then, and most of them are still working (one laptop ended up getting thrown across the room one day, and it still works if I hook up an external monitor).

My husband is a dedicated PC fan, but he's constantly yelling at his computer. The wireless internet just stops working for no reason, or the system crashes, or some weird error message appears out of nowhere. I just go into another room and laugh, because my computer doesn't have those problems. :D

[KansasVoter]

130. I worked at a company for 10 years with 50% macs and 50% PCs......

we switched to 100% PCs.

Apple support for corporate issues was horrible.

And Macs has just as many issues.

[pruple]

12. K&R

another satisfied Apple customer

[flamingdem]

16. apple. actually lives up to the hype nt

[shanti]

21. i love my macbook

best computer purchase i've ever made.

[PBS Poll-435]

24. You have to laugh at this stuff. nt

[ThomWV]

43. My wife bought me a Mac last Christmas, about the same $ as a PC, and I love it.

[MrScorpio]

44. I've used Macs and PCs for about the same number of years

PCs longer and mostly at work and also PCs for my wife. I've been a home Mac user since 1994.

I've seen the best and worst of both.

I understand why the satisfaction rate for Macs is higher, it's pretty simple. There are a few factors to consider.

1. Since most people are users, rather than programmers, the Mac OS' intuitive structure makes it easier for users to do what ever they have to do with their computer. You're not challenged with a lot of bells and whistles when you merely ask program to perform, as you would see with most Windows OS. There are very few surprises when it comes to the Mac OS. You pull a Mac out of the box and it's ready to use right there. Try that with a PC, without having some store guy do that for you. With a Mac, you're already an expert, instead of some Geek Squad dude.

2. Planned obsolescence for Macs occurs at a much slower rate than that of PCs. Both in hardware and software. Even Macs that are two to five years old could handle major software upgrades with minor physical changes like more RAM. The Intel conversion was major, yes, but it wasn't like it was the end of the world. There are a of lot Pre-Intel Macs in use today. The main point is that Macs just LAST LONGER that PCS. For example, I've got a seven year old iMac that I had to retire, for the most part, because last year my townhouse got hit by a lightning bolt and it blew out my ethernet board. So, around Christmas, I bought a two year old Intel iMac that runs the latest OS and works like a charm. This Mac will last me another two to three years before I think about getting a new one, barring another major upgrade or lightning incident.

In the same time that I've had my last two iMacs, my wife has had three PCs with all kinds of unmanageable software upgrades. She's still using Vista today, mostly because we can't afford to buy 7 and despite the fact that her current PC is only TWO YEARS OLD, I have no idea if it can't handle an upgrade to 7. Eventually, I'm afraid Windows will cease support of her current software suite.

3. Viruses: 'Nuff Said.

4. Stability: Macs are much more stable machines and they run a more stable software, even with older Macs.

and 5. Interoperability: An Intel Mac today can run any program that a Windows machine can run, read any windows document, read any Windows formatted disc and do it better and faster than most PCS. Try the same with a PC and see how much you can do. Not much, I tell you.

Yes, Macs are more expensive, but few bother to say that that is only the start up cost. Over the long run, with constant needs for hardware, software upgrades, virus updates and the like, which is by way of the faster cycle of planned obsolescence with PCs, you're going to be paying more in the long run with a PC than you will with a Mac.

So, it's no surprise that Mac users are more satisfied.

[Pavulon]

49. Best part, when you call tech support it is Domestic and trained,

not offshore and reading from a script.

[Dawgs]

58. If MACs are so great, why do you need tech support?

:shrug:

[Pavulon]

59. Hardware breaks. It is all made by the same Malaysians

so when a HDD pukes or I need to set up an open source vpn to work with a PIX firewall i can speak to a non moron. Seriously call dell support and ask about setting up a p2p tunnel on your machine. Good luck.

BTW I design PLC controllers and software for cnc tooling. It all breaks.

[Dawgs]

63. I've been in IT/Software Development for 15+ years as well.

I've never had to call tech support.

Maybe some of us don't need it.

[Pavulon]

66. Who do you call when you get a DOA server?

I call dell/hp/ibm to replace it. I use the cheapest 2u box to run a linux kernel. You are much luckier than me. I have called TS for bullshit laptops up to million dollar Vmax EMC arrays. IBM mainframes, or shit T class laptops, not my fucking job to replace boards or failed power supplies.. But I dont work for a dentists office so my mileage varies..

[HuckleB]

162. Who said Macs were perfect?

:shrug:

[Dawgs]

57. I can refute everything you said based on my experience.

I have PC's that have lasted for 6+ years, with no upgrades, virus problems, or learning curve issues.

Interoperability isn't an issue for me as I don't need the MAC OS.

[MrScorpio]

73. Then obviously, Macs will never make you satisfied.

But, if PCs will, that's all fine and dandy.


You're not like most users. Just because Macs are easier to use by people who don't have your extensive background, why is that a bad thing?

[LanternWaste]

62. Cola Wars, Part II-- Return of the Brand Loyalty.

In a taste test, X our of Y people enjoy the cool, refreshing taste of (insert favorite pop here).

Cola Wars, Part II-- Return of the Brand Loyalty.

Although many of us will drink it if it tastes good, and work on a system that let's us finish our projects, regardless of name, logo, system, platform or biases. And those of us who enjoy Pepsi *and* Coke also enjoy the ineffectual melodrama "fanboyz" resort to when someone else likes something they don't.

[Freetradesucks]

71. So I sense a lot animosity towards Apple here,

Why is that? It's not a rhetorical question, I'm really curious.

[Confusious]

74. annoyance

macs are the most wonderfulest poniest rainbowest things on the earth and PC are the crapiest rottenest dirtiest things on the earth.

seriously I just run Linux. no Mac high price, no windows annoyances.

[Frank Booth]

83. Apple owners can be incredibly sanctimonious

about their unnecessary luxury items produced by a mega-corporation.

[cleanhippie]

105. Hahahaha!

Does that apply only to Macs, or all computers?

[depakid]

72. Count this crapple Macbook pro owner among the dissatisfied

Touch pad dead after 6 months of use, multiple crashes of the resident Safari browser and intermittent connectivity issues with with the wireless router.

[PBS Poll-435]

75. But it is PRETTY!!

:P

[depakid]

76. That it is- kind of like some European sports cars

High priced, with expensive options and accessories and costs big money to repair.

[defendandprotect]

77. What's the price difference between Apple and Windows???

Microsoft Vista was a disaster -- especially since they kept denying it and I think

are still incorporating it?

[EOTE]

104. Apple is a company, Windows is an Operating System.

But generally, you'll spend 2x or more on a Mac than you will on a comparatively equipped PC.

[defendandprotect]

112. Doesn't Apple have it's own "operating system" ... I mean you can't buy

a computer with Apple in it -- can you?*

However, a large majority of computers for sale HAVE WINDOWS in them --

Vista couldn't be overridden, either -- even by Windows XP!!

Looks like the price for an Apple would be prohibitably expensive -- !!


Though I'm not positive cause I think my son said he is using something of an

Apple program in his computer which isn't Apple??!!

[EOTE]

116. Yes, Apples typically have some version of OSX on them.

And yes, the great bulk of computers available for sale today have some version of Windows on them.

"Vista couldn't be overridden, either -- even by Windows XP!!"

I'm not sure what you mean by this. As far as the upgrade path, yes, you can't upgrade from Vista to XP as they're very different OSes, but you can certainly install XP on a computer with Vista, you'll just want to back up your files first.

And yes, since Macs and PCs are currently using pretty much the same system architecture, you can run OSX on PC hardware. It's what's known as a "Hackintosh". It's fairly easy to do nowadays.

[defendandprotect]

117. Have no idea what "OSX" is ... but many with Vista found they couldn't

replace it with XP -- even if they owned XP --

that was one of the many attempts to keep Vista in play which were so foolish!

Even now, if you bought a computer with Vista -- that was it -- no getting rid of it.

[EOTE]

118. I'm afraid you're a bit confused here.

ANY PC can have just about any operating system installed on it, regardless of the operating system that's on it at the time. To say that there's no getting rid of Vista is ridiculous. If you want to install XP on a system with Vista on it, you boot from an install CD and install XP. It's the "upgrade" part that you must be referring to. You can't "upgrade" to XP from Vista because Vista came AFTER XP.

[defendandprotect]

126. Ask around here ... VISTA could NOT be replaced . . . .

I'm not computer expert, but I do know that much ...

Check around -- I don't have any more time for this --

bye --



I'm afraid you're a bit confused here.
ANY PC can have just about any operating system installed on it, regardless of the operating system that's on it at the time. To say that there's no getting rid of Vista is ridiculous. If you want to install XP on a system with Vista on it, you boot from an install CD and install XP. It's the "upgrade" part that you must be referring to. You can't "upgrade" to XP from Vista because Vista came AFTER XP.

[Occulus]

128. I read the thread you're talking about

and you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

There is not any possible way that you were unable to replace Vista with XP- assuming you had an original full version of XP. Whoever told you you can't go back to XP was lying through their teeth, and if you weren't able to do it, it's because you were doing something wrong.

Again, there is no possible way that what you are saying can be true under any circumstances. I think YOU were doing something wrong, and refuse to consider it as a possibility. A full format of the hard drive will- repeat, WILL- remove Vista entirely and leave nothing left. The hard drive will be blank. You then boot from the XP install disc- the full version disc, NOT the one marked "UPGRADE"- and it will install.

"Even now, if you bought a computer with Vista -- that was it -- no getting rid of it."

Totally untrue. I know people who have done it and helped with doing it once. You just don't know how.

[defendandprotect]

143. REPEAT ... I did not try to do it -- others complained about it ...

and evidently did not receive the help they should have gotten from Microsoft

in order to be able to do it.

Most of them had XP available and wanted to get rid of Vista --

and that Vista was a dog is the point, at any rate!

[Occulus]

147. *sigh* For a time, Microsoft would not GIVE people XP *for free* if they had Vista

that was right after Vista came out. THEN they started offering a downgrade deal. That became moot when Win7 was released, but there was never any "wouldn't let" about it.

You can always- always, always, always- replace one OS for another on any given hard drive if you have a full-version install disc. There's just no exception. You can put Vista on a drive, wipe the drive and put XP on it (or, shoot, Windows 95 if you want). You can put 7 on it, with XP alongside. You can put linux on it, make that your first-to-boot, and have a menu of four or five (or however many) different systems if you like. Again- I've done this many, many times- so often I can do it half-asleep (and actually have done).

Do you have any idea how hard and how fast Microsoft would have been sued if suddenly one's hard drive would no longer accept any OS but Vista, ever again? They'd be bankrupted by that, but it's impossible in the first place.

[defendandprotect]

148. Think we have to go back into the archieves here or on google to

to see the complaints at the time --

I've just had the experience of trying to reinstall XP on my own computer and

couldn't be done -- I had all the disks - they wouldn't let it happen.

I did do a total RESTORE and went back to condition when I first used the computer.

Again -- I had NONE of these problems -- never had VISTA and would always avoid having.

Wouldn't buy a computer with it on it --

And that's where the concentration should remain -- VISTA IS A DOG --

[defendandprotect]

150. Here are some examples of the VISTA problems....

Obviously people didn't want the system --

felt that Microsoft was shoving it on them --

and not offering sufficient help to rid themselves of it --

And you'll note in these comments many who wanted to replace VISTA with XP

and were unable to do it for various reasons -- including not getting

sufficient help from Microsoft --

There were also many such comments here at DU - you can check the archives.

And I heard many comments from personal friends who detested it --


http://pcanswers.techradar.com/node/965

[jayfish]

153. No one said Vista was super awesome.

They just said you can install any OS you want on a PC.

[defendandprotect]

155. The average person claimed insufficient help from Microsoft to rid them of VISTA ...

[jayfish]

158. See #157 -NT

[defendandprotect]

160. See #155 -- N/T

[EOTE]

135. Well, I am a computer expert.

I support about 500 people for the FDA, so I'm quite sure my knowledge of computers trumps yours by magnitudes of order. You are quite wrong about this. You are bringing wrong to a whole new level.

[EOTE]

137. And another thing.

I got a really good chuckle being talked down to by someone who doesn't know the difference between a company and an operating system. Do you also run into Jiffy Lubes yelling "I may be no automotive expert, but your car needs a new flux capacitor!" Do you realize how incredibly arrogant and ignorant that comes off as?

[defendandprotect]

144. Do you realize that personal attacks aren't debate ... and don't actually answer questions...

Jiffy Lube?

[EOTE]

145. You realize that speaking out of your ass isn't debate either, right? NT

[EOTE]

146. I don't seem to recall you asking many questions.

You seemed to be making many statements though. Statements which weren't true. If you have a problem with me pointing out that the statements you were making were untrue, perhaps you shouldn't make them on a discussion board?

[defendandprotect]

151. Many people had problems trying to UNINSTALL Vista --

this website is one of many reviewing the problems --

Not everyone is or wants to require a "professional" to use their

own personal computer.

And many felt they were getting insufficient help from Microsoft to

rid themselves of Vista.

Underlying message is Vista was a dog -- and still is.

http://pcanswers.techradar.com/node/965

[jayfish]

152. Who in the heck "uninstalls" an OS. -NT-

[defendandprotect]

154. Obviously, those who wanted nothing to do with VISTA .... the many who got stuck with it--!!

[jayfish]

157. You should stop talking about computers. -NT-

[EOTE]

156. You don't need to uninstall Vista. So maybe that's their problem.

All you do is install XP per the instructions that are included... wait for it... in the XP instruction book. You boot from the CD and follow the prompts. It certainly doesn't require any special computer knowledge to do.

I never said anything about Vista being or not being a dog. I used it until I became a Windows 7 beta tester and everything worked flawlessly for me. One thing that many people did not understand about Vista is that it was not meant for legacy systems. Microsoft did a poor job working with hardware manufacturers and when it came out, many of them had very poorly written drivers for their old hardware. This is somewhat Microsoft's fault, but I'd say the bulk of the blame lies with hardware manufacturers who sat on their ass waiting for drivers to write themselves. If you had even a remotely recent computer at the time, Vista would run perfectly smoothly.

However, the argument of Vista being a reason not to buy PCs is even more ridiculous now that Windows 7 has been out for more than a year (I've had it for almost 2). Windows 7 even works damned well with older hardware. It's easier to use, more feature packed and more intuitive than XP is, it's damned stable and fast and is a pleasure to use. Almost any new PC today comes with some version of Windows 7 on it.

[defendandprotect]

159. Evidently Microsoft did not offer sufficient help for average user to get rid of VISTA ...

read the comments --

[EOTE]

164. What is the average user?

Does the average user have your knowledge of computers? I, as well as others on this thread, have shown you how easy it is to replace Vista with XP. Microsoft did nothing to prevent people from downgrading to XP. If they experienced problems doing it, they weren't looking in the right place for answers. I implore you to find me a comment from a person who spoke with Microsoft and was told that once they had Vista on their computer, they could never go back to XP again. I've read the comments you've posted and there's nothing of the sort listed there.

[defendandprotect]

169. Certainly not a "professional" such as you --

and certainly NOT me --

As my son notes, I treat my computer like a shrub!

But most people don't do as badly as me -- or as well as you --

READ the comments --

[EOTE]

170. Once again, I HAVE read the comments.

It's the standard boilerplate crap that had been going around from Vista's day one. UAC, poor drivers, blah blah blah. Still haven't found anyone who says that they couldn't install XP on their computer once Vista was installed. Even if I did, random netizens who can't follow simple instructions is hardly substantial criticism of an operating system. I'm sure if I googled "OSX complaints", I'd have no problems finding lots of people pissing on OSX. If you're going to lambaste an operating system, it would help if you knew at least a little bit about computers rather than basing your opinion solely upon the screeds of idiots on the internet.

[ShamelessHussy]

79. Made on a Mac

http://dvia.com/bm1

it's a work in progress, but enough is there to get the idea, or you can see the public beta for more info...
http://dvia.com/buttonMaker
(the first link is a preview of the next edition - functionally the same but the UI is getting an overhaul + a few new features e.g. code generation)

not to say it couldn't be done on any computer, but as someone who makes their living on computers, I prefer Macs (though i run all 3 major OS on it Mac, Win, Linux - at the same time) and i am not surprised at these results.

:hi:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

82. Cool, maybe they can fix my iBook now

Worst piece of shit I ever owned,

[Stargazer09]

84. Love my Macs

Hate my PCs.

Of course, this is a hot button topic, and I see that the Mac-bashers are out in force. If you don't like Apple, then don't buy a Mac.

Can't we all just get along? I won't tell you which computer to buy, and you won't tell me which one I should buy.

Should be simple enough for anyone.

[Berserker]

86. iPhone vs Android

apple closed source
Android open source
Which do you like?
I like installing any app I want vs apple telling me what app is ok for me. FUCK APPLE
Fuck apple computers also

[Stargazer09]

97. To each their own

I love my iPhone, too. :D

[ChazII]

88. Thanks for your common sense

on this topic. You're right it should be simple enough for anyone.

[Stargazer09]

99. Obviously it's not that simple

Just for saying that I prefer to buy Apple products, someone slams Apple. I'm not forcing my preferences on anyone, but that doesn't seem to matter.

If people can't agree on something this simple, it's no wonder that people think that they can control my reproductive choices. It's not as much as a leap as you might think.

:cry:


Edited to change my wording.

[alfredo]

89. I think Apple has learned how to design machines that encourage an emotional attachment.

They keep re writing the book on industrial design.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. Best customer service of any company I have ever done business with

I am continually amazed by what a great job they do.

[Initech]

93. Certainly true. I will never speak ill of Apple's customer service.

[KansasVoter]

132. Try their support for a corporate setting. Horrible!

I guess that is why they are not really in the corporate world. Maybe 12%.

[Initech]

92. I paid $1600 for my Mac. I paid less than $1000 for my Toshiba. Guess which I like better?

The Toshiba.

[JCMach1]

94. I prefer my UBUNTU 10.4 on any used laptop or desktop especially old Thinkpads

:)

I can even wear my OS on my wrist with a Pendrive install on wristband USB.

[smalll]

95. I don't know who to despise more in this thread --

the overpaid Apple fanboys (and fangirls) --

or the geeked-out self-PC-building Ubuntu and/or Kwa Zulu and/or Linus users.

[Javaman]

106. Why am I surprised that this thread, as most pc v mac threads, devolved into a

who would win in a fight? Jesus or Superman? type thread.

I use both. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Both are tools.

If you swear your allegiance at the altar of technology, I feel sorry for you.

[guitar man]

127. I recently got my first mac

It's a 2003 model g4 fw800 powermac that was given to me by a friend who was upgrading. It was the last g4 made before they upgraded to the g5. Dual 1.42ghz processors and 2gb of ram. All I have to say is, if this 7 year old box is indicative of what mac makes, they are doing it right. It kicks the ass right off of any pc I have had. I've got a 2 year old windows box that can't hold a candle to it. When it comes to doing audio production in the studio especially the mac is the winner hands down.

[KansasVoter]

129. It is like a cult. I have supported both and Macs have many issues. But the cult.....

status and high price make people think they are better.

[Awsi Dooger]

134. I associate PCs with Republicans and their need to showcase food like Glenn Beck and candy

A parody of an argument, or a satisfying meal, scary it exists. I tried to sample this thread but every time an anti-Apple bash showed up I intentionally did the poster a favor by ignoring his user name. It might have been a bad day.

I remember the UCLA cheerleader with the swell blue sweater. Her best letters were the U and the A. With Apple I can't identify the best of anything. Even the manuals are wonderfully packaged. Buying a used Mac is a delight since it's assured the previous owner took care to retain all the wrappings, and dust where needed.

My Apple Stock needs a lovely cruise, a world tour, partially comped and seldom minus a crunchy salad.

[jayfish]

149. Most ridiculous post of the day.

PC users have been hounded by Apple cultists for years. Now that they vociferously defend themselves they are equated with Glenn Beck? Gimme an f'ing break.

[mod mom]

142. Love our Macs & wouldn't trade them for all the PCs in the world.

Of course there is a lot of Apple envy here. Those with the loudest attack are usually the most envious. ;)

[HuckleB]

161. How did Dell get a 77?

I know it's anecdotal, but everyone I know who has tried Dell has ended up despising the company.

[Norrin Radd]

166. I love my tabula and abacus:

[stlsaxman]

168. Mac/Apple- turn it on and go... done.