"Destructive anger"

[Sapphocrat]

It was requested by several DUers that I give this post its own thread, so here it is.

Mods, I understand that you may see this as calling out another DUer, or continuing an ongoing discussion in a new thread, but I promise you, that is not my purpose here. I am addressing an overall, ongoing theme of the past few days; i.e., is experiencing relief or even joy at the death of one's oppressor a reasonable reaction, or is it despicable behavior, constituting "destructive anger"? When I wrote it, I was indeed moved to do so by the turn of a phrase by a single poster, but my intended audience was (and is), truly, everyone (DUer or not) who would attempt to shame us out of our deepest, most genuine feelings of relief and gratitude that the most powerful figurehead of oppression against gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, and the transgendered since the Inquisition is no more. (To that end, I have edited a single line so there is no mistake that I am addressing the broadest possible audience.)

Thank you in advance, mods, for letting this post stand.

- - -

"Destructive anger" is shooting two men to death as they sleep in their bed, and saying the only thing you're sorry for is that you didn't inspire more people to emulate you -- since, after all, you're not guilty of a crime, but only of "obeying the laws of the Creator." (1)

"Destructive anger" is killing three people and injuring 150 more by bombing abortion clinics, lesbian bars, and the Olympics, because Jesus would condone "militant action in defense of the innocent." (2)

"Destructive anger" is murdering at least 11 people, most of them gay, because "According to the Bible, homosexuals must die because they will never enter the kingdom of God." (3)

Where do you think people get such ideas? Who do you think "inspires" them?

Preachers who teach that satanism, Nazism, and homosexuality all go together? (4)

Preachers who teach that "God hates fags," and that God is killing U.S. soldiers in Iraq because America tolerates homosexuals (oh, and by the way, "Thank God for IEDs!")? (5)

Preachers who teach that killing abortion providers is "justifiable homicide," and that "sodomy is a graver sin than murder"? (6)

Preachers who teach that gays, lesbians, abortionists and other "sinners" were personally responsible for 9/11? Or that AIDS is not God's punishment for homosexuals, but "for the society that tolerates homosexuals"? Or who warns that "If we do not act now, homosexuals will own America"? (7)

"Pro-family," "pro-life" organizations (8) that continue to perpetuate the ravings of a universally-discredited psychologist (9) who advocates castration for all gay men? And tattooing, forced quarantine, and banishment to Molokai for all AIDS patients? And who once opined: "'Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals"?

Religious leaders who call gay people "objectively disordered" and "intrinsically evil"? (10)

Preachers, syndicated columnists, and TV and radio commentators who insist that there is no such thing as a "hate crime," and that it is in fact the Christians who are being persecuted... by "the gays"? (11) That "homosexual activists" are doing to "people of faith" the very same thing "Hitler began to build against the Jews"? (12)

The day Ellen DeGeneres brainwashes millions of gay people to into believing that heterosexuals are an immoral, degenerate, biologically-inferior subspecies whose very existence is a threat to the salvation of our souls -- and when heterosexuals start losing their jobs, their homes, their civil rights, and their lives because of it -- then you can lecture me about "destructive anger."

Nobody killed Jerry Falwell. But Jerry Falwell killed millions of us -- without spilling a single drop of blood on his own hands. His legacy is not one of faith, but of "destructive anger" and death -- and it is a legacy which will last long after my bones, and yours, and the bones of your grandchildren, have turned to dust.

Until you understand that, you will never understand why many of us were relieved upon awakening two mornings ago to discover a world we were no longer forced to share with the one man responsible for coalescing such a diverse group of hysterical haters into a vast, indomitable force, for giving them an unassailable excuse for hating us, and for inspiring so many to dominate us, persecute us, beat us, murder us, drive us out of our homes, and attempt to legislate us out of existence.

Until you understand that, you understand nothing about "destructive anger."


1) Benjamin Williams
2) Eric Rudolph
3) "Railway Killer" Angel Maturino Resendiz
4) Pat Robertson
5) Fred Phelps
6) Fr. David Trosch
7) Jerry Falwell
8) Family Research Council, American Family Association, Focus on the Family, Concerned Women for America, NARTH, Claremont Institute, Colorado for Family Values, Traditional Values Coalition, and many others
9) Dr. Paul Cameron
10) Pope Benedict XVI
11) Far too many to list
12) Rev. Lou Sheldon

[LostinVA]

1. Good post, Sapph!

[racaulk]

2. Thank you!

So glad you start your reply as a new OP, it deserves it. I'm gladly recommending this thread. :)

[Donnachaidh]

3. K&R -- To the Moon!

Thank you!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[la la]

4. kick to # 5 !!! n/t

[Phredicles]

5. Recommendation #5 (or maybe #6)

:applause:

[TomInTib]

6. I am just sorry that he died quickly.

I had long hoped that he would suffer the most prolonged and painful Death known to Man.

KnR

[BrklynLiberal]

51. EXACTLY how I felt!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=892742&mesg_id=896268

[Guaranteed]

88. Wow, getting ballsy with numbers, aren't we?

Oil up that slippery slope, baby. Mob rule. Who's next?

[ninkasi]

7. K&R

I truly only felt relief at his death. He has caused too much damage to too many people to pretend otherwise. He was a loathsome man, and for me to feel anything other than gratitude that someone responsible for so much hatred and intolerance would be hypocrisy.

[Sapphocrat]

33. You make a big point a lot of people don't get, ninkasi.

That to "feel anything other than gratitude ... would be hypocrisy." Not that we can feel anything but what we feel, but you make an excellent point. An awful lot of people seem to think we have a choice in the way we feel; the hypocrisy is in pretending we don't feel the way we really do. It's dishonest.

I would guess that people who freak out the most about those of us who admit to our relief and gratitude feel the very same thing -- and perhaps even more -- and attempting to shut down any honest expression about our very real feelings is an attempt to help mask their own.

Which, if you think about it, is just like homophobia: The biggest homophobes are often the ones most terrified of being gay themselves.

Irony abounds. :)

[mitchtv]

38. I don't know about that

the emotion I felt the strongest was sheer Joy
Too many wanted to call it hate- nothing like it; pure unadulterated Joy

[Sapphocrat]

39. You're right.

Amazing how "joy" gets translated into "hate," isn't it?

[nam78_two]

8. K&R.nt

[Madspirit]

9. k&r Wonderful Post!...n/t

[Swamp Rat]

10. K and R!!

:kick:

[Sapphocrat]

34. Ooo! I got a Swamp Rat Special!

And one of my favorites, too! :)

[Duncan Grant]

11. Your post is among "DU's finest hours", imho.

This is a great post, Sapph. I appreciate it more than you know. :applause:

[Sapphocrat]

35. I think I know. :)

I am privileged for your inspiration, and honored by your friendship. :hug:

[Madspirit]

12. Kick

...already recommended!
Lee

[Marie26]

13. Destructive anger works both ways.

I totally understand why Falwell is so hated & think people should be able to express their opinion about him. But, at a certain point, anger at those who are evil can also be "destructive anger" as well. Falwell's dead & gone now; he can't hurt people anymore. What's the use in hating him now? Hate & anger can eat people up inside, can hurt the person who feels it much more than the intended target. Maybe that anger can best be constructively channeled into stopping these kinds of organizations.

[Beam Me Up]

14. What's a matter, Marie? Can't handle other peoples justifiable rage?

Yeah, at a certain point "anger at those who are evil can also be 'destructive anger'." But, we aren't anywhere NEAR that point now, are we? Nowhere near. So what is your point? You think people expressing their outrage is becoming "destructive anger"? Do you really believe that?

[Marie26]

18. Depends

I've tried to stay out the Falwell rage/finger-wagging threads. People have a total right to express their anger, or their desire for forgiveness. It's just a larger point - this goes for Falwell, or Bush, or any polarizing figure. I think anger & hate can be destructive, even if it's aimed at someone who deserves it. Does hating Bush hurt him? No. Does it hurt you? Maybe. Sometimes, anger builds up so that it's aimed at other targets instead, or swallowed into bitterness & rage. There's PLENTY of that on DU. Half the time I think people flame other liberals because we feel so powerless against the real object of our anger. Falwell was a bad guy, but in some ways he was mostly a symptom of an underlying hatred & intolerance in this country. That hatred didn't die with him, unfortunately. It will only end when we're able to address the underlying hatred & fear that gives people like Falwell so much power. And to do that, we have to channel that anger & outrage into action, not just hatred. Sorry if you're offended or think I'm being self-righteous. Probably I am, and it's not an ideal that I can accomplish most of the time, but I still think it's an ideal worth striving for - answering hatred with love, fear with courage; being the opposite of what they are. Here, I'll be even more pretentious and add a quote:

"Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you." — Friedrich Nietzsche

"I have learned through bitter experience the one supreme lesson to conserve my anger, and as heat conserved is transmuted into energy, even so our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power which can move the world." — Gandhi

[Duncan Grant]

20. You have no idea what that quote by Gandhi means, do you?

Do me a favor. Tell me what you think this means:

"I have learned through bitter experience the one supreme lesson to conserve my anger, and as heat conserved is transmuted into energy, even so our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power which can move the world." — Gandhi

[undergroundpanther]

24. Conserving anger

Has made the Dem's in the house and senate too passive to fight bush when the problem was not so entrenched.
Sometimes starting brushfires in the minds of the restless and wounded is the right thing to do,for through use of anger applied skillfully with fire do people get enough of a sense of outrage to be motivated to save themselves from fascists when thier government fails to.

[Marie26]

27. .

Conserve anger, channel it, focus it like a lightning bolt in order to inspire change. Ghandi was incredibly angry at all the injustices he saw, and he learned to focus that anger in order to fuel his mission. That's "good" anger. "Bad" anger is anger that embitters, depresses, & causes one to become what one despises. The line between the two is nowhere near as clear as we'd like to think.

[Duncan Grant]

104. Does Gandhi make a distinction between "good" and "bad" anger?

This concept about "good" anger and "bad" anger is important.

Personally, I don't think I have the same concerns as others about "bad" anger regarding Falwell's life or death. I'm not seeing any evidence that supports an argument that DUers are becoming what they despise because of their "bad" anger (i.e. becoming Falwell). Granted, I see the world with my own personal set of lenses but I think Sapphocrat's words in response to "destructive anger" are much more to the point.

You mentioned in post #13: But, at a certain point, anger at those who are evil can also be "destructive anger" as well. Falwell's dead & gone now; he can't hurt people anymore. What's the use in hating him now?

What's the use in hating him now? Let's not equate "hating" and "anger". I don't "hate" him any more or any less now than I did when he was alive but -- I'm still angered by him and his legacy. As a gay activist, I've always found him to be objectionable and I've used my anger to bring attention to the injustices associated with Falwell's ideology. For me, this is the ongoing experience of Gandhi's "our anger controlled can be transmuted into a power which can move the world". I just don't happen to believe that this makes me embittered, depressed or in any danger of becoming what I despise (your definition of "bad" anger in post #27).

Just because some here make declarations that people like me are "hate-spewing-grave-dancers" doesn't make it so. This "bad" anger argument is very, very subjective.

I'm glad you and I agree about the meaning of Gandhi's words but my personal interpretation doesn't include a distinction between good or bad anger.

[foreigncorrespondent]

15. You have absolutely no idea, do you?

It was never Falwell himself who went out and physically hurt people now was it? It was his minions. You know the fools with such little brains in side their heads they believe anything Falwell said, and do anything he told them to do.

So when someone like Falwell says something as stupid as: “It’s one thing to say, `We have rights to jobs...we have rights to be left alone in out little corner of the world to do our thing.’ It’s an entirely different thing to say, well, `We’re not only going to go into the schools and we’re going to take your children and your grandchildren and turn them into homosexuals.’ Now that’s wrong.” then you need to realize that that there are idiots out there who will take him at his word and go out and physically hurt/kill people because of who those people happen to love.

Now, just because Falwell is gone, doesn't mean his minions are gone now too, does it? For every Falwell there is thousands of idiots waiting to jump to the head of the table.

So if you want to view destructive anger, then don't sit around on your computer reading a forum to find posts you want to disagree with. Go out, hang with some gays and lesbians. You hang with them long enough, you are guaranteed to see first hand what destructive anger really is.

On edit: typo

[LostinVA]

46. As I said in a post this week: Hitler never dropped a canister of Zyklon-B

That doesn't make him any less responsible for the deaths of those in the camps.

Telling victims how they should feel about the death of their oppressor is appalling, and one which I am shocked to see from certain posters on here whom I know are advocates for women's rights, etc.

[foreigncorrespondent]

134. I agree with you, woman!

While I am torn by some of what I have seen said (torn because I understand the pain behind it, but feel we are lowering ourselves to Falwell's level by doing it. But that really is just me.) I must mention that I am just so disgusted that those who have been against the very real feelings expressed by a lot of queers since the "Almighty's" death feel they have the right to use their hatred to wards us to defend an assholes death. It doesn't make sense to me, and really shows the maturity of those who oppose our feelings.

I hope that makes sense. I am rather ill right now, and not thinking very clearly.

[Bluerthanblue]

63. I hate to bring this up- or get in

the middle of this mess but it IS important to remember that despicable crimes against individuals based on their sexual orientation existed before falwell- Not to mention that other high level figures also spoke hatred- and continue to speak hatred- that hatred is as you point out -often fuel for actions against others.

And the bigotry that has existed is absolutely wrong.

In the years falwell was preaching his hate .. there was also progress being made. I don't believe falwell to be singlehandedly responsible for all the harm done. He stirred up and encouraged negative destructive energy that was waiting to be ignited- But he wasn't alone- and it isn't going to end now that he is dead. This doesn't in any way excuse what he did. But it doesn't make working to end this prejudice and oppression a worthless pursuit either-


I don't believe anyone here has said the prejudice and mistreatment of the GLBT community is "good" or acceptable, or something to 'just get over'-

I would never say that- And I would stand in opposition to anyone who would.

I haven't seen anyone on DU state that falwell's destructive campaign against Gays was anything other than WRONG.

No one is defending HIM- or his ideology- I cannot for the life of me see evidence of "all the love for jerry"- ???

No one is advocating for any Anti-Gay action/mindset/stand.

If I'm ignorant of one, please educate me. I want to learn and grow- i don't care how stupid i appear, i'd rather feel embarrassed for a few minutes, than to harbor harmful misconceptions.

thanks-
blu

edited to fix run-away bold

[Sapphocrat]

109. For your consideration.

Yes, "despicable crimes against individuals based on their sexual orientation existed before Falwell," et al., and they will occur long after. But that sad truth does not diminish the impact of Falwell, his followers, or the countless carbon copies who took his place.

Yes: "In the years falwell was preaching his hate .. there was also progress being made." On a side note, that progress was not in spite of Falwell, but because of him. I'll give the man credit for mobilizing and galvanizing the gay community in a way no one ever had before.

But both movements -- Falwell's and ours -- were in their infancy; it is no coincidence that Falwell's concerted efforts against us began almost immediately after Stonewall (and Roe v. Wade), and it's no secret that our early efforts in the post-Stonewall era were in direct response to his. But he had the money, the reach, and the numbers we didn't (and never will), and he won.

Falwell's first openly public effort can be pinpointed to the establishment of Liberty Univerity in 1971, although you can be certain he was planning his ambush on American politics long before that (one doesn't establish a college on a sudden whim, you know).

And what is the significance of Liberty University? Falwell was always quite open about its purpose: The school was established to groom young Christians to enter politics, the media, and other areas of power and influence, in order to destroy secularism, smash the wall of separation between church and state, and reshape America into the "Christian nation" it never was.

This was his plan long before he formed the Moral Majority, and long before there was any such thing as the American Family Association, the Traditional Values Coalition, the Promise Keepers, or any of the rest -- and there is no question that every one of these subsequent organizations took a page right out of Falwell's playbook, and, what's more, every one has been affiliated with Falwell in some way -- yes, including Operation Rescue and the Moonies, two of many organizations Falwell publicly lambasted, but with which he privately exchanged money and resources. Every hardcore, anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-liberal RW organization whose name you recognize today is in some real and immeasurable way connected to Jerry Falwell, and can trace its roots back to his.

Before Falwell, people like Falwell were contained, and considered part of the fringe. Are you old enough to remember a time before anyone other than the evangelicals themselves knew what a "born-again" was? Back then, all we knew was the phrase "Jesus freak." Falwell brought the "Jesus freaks" out of the shadows and into the mainstream. His efforts have stopped just short -- so far -- to make them the mainstream.

Is there any question of the RRR's role in putting Reagan in the White House? And is there any question that Reagan's reign dealt a death blow to -- or at least severely curtailed -- the then-still-burgeoning gay-rights movement? (Actually, Reagan did deal a death blow to gay men, by refusing to so much as utter the word "AIDS," let alone do anything about it, until well into his second term. That's not irrelevant at all; by example, Reagan sent the clear message that the very lives of gay people were not worthy of acknowledgment, much less saving.)

You have Falwell to thank for mobilizing the conservative Christian vote and turning it into a bloc so powerful no administration since has been able to ignore it.

And so, Falwell won, and he is still winning; every time another state writes discrimination into its constitution, you have Falwell to thank for teaching his ideological descendants how to whip conservative Christians into a frenzy over the "gay threat" (although threat to what, I do not know) and get them to the polls.

No, Falwell was not "singlehandedly responsible for all the harm done," but he was singlehandedly responsible for starting the the ball (or the runaway train) rolling. He was the single most important, powerful, influential, and unfortunately successful uniter of anti-progressives in the 20th century, and that was no accident: Falwell began a deliberate, focused effort to commandeer U.S. politics and mold the nation into the theocracy that was his ideal, and the energy of that effort exploded, and continues today.

Why, then, is it so difficult to understand holding Falwell himself personally responsible for the damage inflicted on gay Americans since? I suspect both age and one's sphere of interest have much to do with it; if you weren't around to watch the movement form and grow, if you have little interest in following this particular money trail, and if you know Jerry Falwell only as this irrelevant old man whose worst crime was saying a lot of stupid, offensive things, you may not understand how anyone could ever see him as anything but an object of ridicule -- and now, perhaps, pity.

Certainly, Falwell became irrelevant and ridiculous -- and moribund -- and he had no one but himself to blame for that. But I assure you, at one time, he was -- to gay people, women, and anyone who treasured democracy and personal freedom -- the most dangerous man in America.

I understand how silly it might seem now that anybody ever thought of Anita Bryant in much the same way -- and while the measurable success of her efforts, thank God, was limited primarily to Florida's Dade County, she was considered just as dangerous as Falwell -- perhaps moreso, since, believe it or not, her celebrity had a much higher profile than his at the time. That, of course, would change, and quickly.

So, no, Falwell wasn't alone. But he led the charge. Singlehandedly. He is the granddaddy of every piece of anti-gay legislation passed in your lifetime.

As for the rest of your post: No one is saying you are condoning anti-gay hatred by condemning the sense of relief many of us feel at Falwell's death. But there seems to be a deliberate refusal to allow us to feel what we feel, and to express it. Why? Gay people didn't pick up torches and pitchforks, storm Falwell's house, and murder him in his sleep. What is it we're doing that is harmful to anyone else? Does our honesty embarrass you (the collective "you") because we're making you "look bad" for failing to don the sackcloth and feign sorrow, because that's what liberals are supposed to do? Are we supposed to just STFU, and thus lie by omission about our true feelings?

Or do you want to understand why we feel the way we do -- and work to prevent anyone else from ever feeling that way again?

[Madspirit]

17. Falwell may be dead

...but his hateful and murdering legacy lives on. Gays and lesbians are angry for a reason. ...and that anger should not be dismissed.
Lee

[Bluebear]

21. 'Falwell's dead & gone now; he can't hurt people anymore.' - Hello, LEGACY

What this man has sown is so deeply entrenched in the soil of American politics now it would take decades to exorcise it. Sorry, no gracious "toodle-oo, Jerry" from me.

[Marie26]

26. That's fine

I wouldn't expect it. People reap what they sow. But I think the hatred was sown in American soil way before Falwell came along; he just used it to grow his own profitable little crop of fundies. Maybe Falwell was a legacy too. I've got no problem w/people expressing their opinion about Falwell; IMO he was a bigoted, intolerant demagogue. But the level of vitriol in general gets a little disturbing sometimes & it makes me wonder - when does "righteous anger" become "destructive anger"? Where is the line between the two? The fundies think that they have righteous anger, as they do the most destructive things. We can have righteous anger over the horrible things that an enemy has done, but can that anger become destructive? I don't think the line is clear at all; and I just want to post in order to pose that broader question.

[BrklynLiberal]

53. Exactly. HIS hate and destruction live on after him. Sadly, the seeds he planted

are still growing.
Only righteous anger, and the action inspired by it, can stop his growing vine of hate and destruction from taking over the country like a REALLY evil form of Kudzu.

[EFerrari]

64. Exactly. n/t

[underseasurveyor]

29. I do not 'hate' falwell

Do not confuse (my) anger with hate. Plus there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with anger. Nothing!

[LostinVA]

45. EXACTLY -- great post

[DearAbby]

16. As long as I breathe

the legacy of this 'man' will be the evil he preached. They will not get a chance to deify this filth.

There is justified anger, and it can be channeled to do very constructive things.

[Nikki Stone1]

19. Amen....and k & r

:kick:

[Kurovski]

22. Good research. K&R.

Thank you, Sapphocrat.

[Sapphocrat]

36. Thanks, Kuro. But I'll let you in on a sad little secret...

I didn't have to research anything other than the exact wording of a few quotes. I'm not bragging, but lamenting, that I knew before typing the first word exactly who and what I was going to cite. That's how much I've heard this stuff over the years. *sigh*

[undergroundpanther]

23. Beau-ti-Ful Post KIck

A four paws up on the OP! And a Kick and recommend!

[SeattleGirl]

25. Well said, Sapphocrat.

:applause:

[underseasurveyor]

28. AfreakingMen

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
K&R!

[frogcycle]

30. wow

you did a good job with the 'walk a mile in my shoes" message.

I despise everything you list, and was aware of it before reading your post, but I admit I don't live with it daily. One can be sympathetic but still clueless.

Many years ago I thought I was reasonably "enlightened" as to accepting - welcoming - desegregation until I was chatting one day with a Black coworker and he let slip in a conversation that when he was a kid he was not allowed to attend the movie theater I had just mentioned... Suddenly it was personal. He went on to tell some of what it was like as a kid to be told you were not allowed in the white folks theaters, bathrooms, could not even drink from their water fountains - had to have your own. We did not get into any discussion of violence - just segregation. But it was eye opening.

Thank you for your post. I despised the bloated one not just for his hatred of Gays and Lesbians but for his overall bigotry against all who were not his minions. Now I despise him more for his leadership in that particular area. I had not thought of his actually having fomented hate and "hate crimes by proxy." I guess I forgot that there were people who listened and actually did anything but laugh at his insanity.

[Sapphocrat]

37. I learned that lesson myself, very recently...

...that is, I learned I wasn't so enlightened about racism as I thought I was. I was sure that by this stage of my life, I could spot even the most subtle racism -- until a black friend of mine pointed out what I wasn't seeing. I was, and am still, deeply ashamed of my own benign ignorance -- and horrified by the realization that ignorance is never benign.

The most painful thing -- besides, of course, finally being able to feel the depth of my friend's pain -- was the revelation that any failure to recognize racism is perpetuating racism. A few months ago, I would have flame-broiled anyone who accused me of perpetuating racism -- but now I see my own contribution, and I can't forgive myself for being so blind to it all my life.

The catalyst -- the thing that hurt my friend -- wasn't violent at all, or even overt. It was quite innocent on the part of the offender, an off-the-cuff remark, really, that didn't make an impression on me at all -- but the impact on my friend was deep.

I do feel very fortunate to have a friend who was willing to explain it all to me in a way I could get it, without pulling any punches. The honesty of our discussions made me realize how much black people and white people hedge with one another -- we all like to think we've transcended the color barrier and can discuss anything, but we really don't. Not openly. We're so careful with one another when it comes to talking about our differences, we never really talk about anything. Part of that must be due to fear of offending one another, but I suspect most of the reason goes much deeper, to an almost hardwired distrust between black and white people (which is something else we almost never cross color lines to discuss).

Anyway... Thanks for the kind words, frog. Knowing that I could give you a bit of a different perspective, as my aforementioned friend did for me, fulfills my purpose in writing it.

Oh, and for what my opinion is worth, I think you're pretty enlightened already. :)

[spoony]

31. The only thing more pathetic than all the hatred

is the steady stream of defensive threads decrying any attempt at even the tiniest speck of civility. Obviously some part of you knows that wishing suffering and death upon others (if not you in particular, many are, just read that little gem in this thread) is unhealthy and/or immoral and so you have to vigorously rationalize it.

[Sapphocrat]

32. What never ceases to amaze me...

...is the number of different ways there are to demand that queers just shut up and get over it.

I'm tired of people who think they have the right to tell us how we should feel, and to what degree we should feel it. We've heard all the variations, you know -- and now we can add to the list: We're wrong to acknowledge our genuine relief that Jerry Falwell is finally out of our lives, although the damage he wrought never will be.

Oh, sorry, you didn't say "wrong," did you? You said "pathetic."

There are only two things that are really pathetic: The first is telling others that their feelings are wrong, and should be suppressed. As if we gay folks haven't heard that all our lives; it always comes back to telling us that our feelings are wrong, and should be suppressed. Funny how that works.

The second is the notion some people have that it is their mission to impose certain standards of behavior on everyone else. Funny how that works: Jerry Falwell thought it was his mission to impose certain standards of behavior on everyone else.

Here's a little tip: Jerry Falwell wasn't my dad. And neither are you.

Next: Stop implying I've said things I haven't. In what way have I "(decried) any attempt at even the tiniest speck of civility"? Where -- in this or any other thread in all the years I've been on DU -- have I ever wished "suffering and death" on anyone? The "if not you" does not cut it, buster; it's an attempt to plant doubt in the mind of the reader about all queers, and it's a cheap shot.

And slipping in the words "unhealthy and/or immoral"-- Wait a minute, did you actually use the word immoral? Assuming you even read my OP (and I am not at all convinced you did), you just finished reading about violence against queers provoked by decades of "Christian" hate speech -- and yet you have the audacity to cast a moral judgment on my words, which harm no one? My God... Have you no sense of irony?

Next: Considering that the OP was my first foray into the Falwell Wars, versus the number of your posts on this issue over the past few days -- and considering the vehemence with which you admonish everyone you oppose -- I know I'm not the one apparently compelled to "vigorously rationalize" my position at every opportunity, and browbeat everyone into thinking as I do.

Project much?

Finally: Your temerity in trying to psychoanalyze me -- or even "some small part" of me -- is appallingly condescending and offensive. You know nothing about me, except that my post struck a nerve with you, and you don't like it one bit.

By the way, in case you can't recognize civility when you do see it, I am being quite civil with you -- more generously so than you may deserve. If you want to read it any other way -- and I expect you will -- that's your problem, not mine. I was through, long ago, with letting anybody else's hangups become my problem.

[hfojvt]

40. mission to impose certain standard of behavior on everyone else

To some degree that is the Christian mission, to some degree that is the progressive mission.

Progressive seek to impose tolerance and non-bigotry on others, don't we?

In some of the posts on this topic, I have noticed a rejection of all standards, a sort of 'FU, I will say or do what I want no matter what anybody thinks.'

That sounds like a dissolute attitude to me, and we part company there. I will stubbornly argue most of my opinions, but I will never argue based on the unshakeable premise that my opinion is my opinion and I will have it no matter how illogical, irrational, or hate-filled it is.

You don't do that in your OP, instead you argue that the hate is rational, but you ascribe many super-powers to Falwell. He is responsible, somehow, for the actions of others, and for the speeches of Pat Robertson and the Pope and Fred Phelps, who he publicly abjured. Somehow he speaks and idiots are instantly brainwashed. What a powerful orator he must have been. He's like the Thomas Edison of homophobia. Before he started his ministry and the Moral Majority in the 1930s, there was no such thing as homophobia.

Yes he did encourage the hate and the bigotry, and he did campaign for Republicans, but you act like he was a Johnny Appleseed who planted an entire grove of hate that grew into a great forest. I think he only managed to grow a couple of branches on a knarly old thornapple of hate that was already a pretty big tree. But, we, at least seemed to have learned his message - "it is a good and proper thing to hate some people based on what they say".

[frogcycle]

44. You don't give falwell enough credit

You are correct, of course, that he did not create Fred Phelps from scratch, did not turn legions of enlightened, peace-loving kind souls into lynch mobs.

But do you deny that MLK, Stokely Carmichael, Malcolm X were influential? Do you deny that some guy named Jesus who roamed around the Mideast preaching tolerance and forgiveness was influential?

Charismatic people throughout history (and charisma is not necessarily admirable personality traits - it is whatever attracts followers) have managed to sow the seeds of philosophies, attitudes, movements, whatever you wish to call them, that grow, spread, and live on long after they are gone. If it is fair to credit Dr. King with having had far-reaching and long-lasting influence, then it is fair to credit Falwell with the same.

There are those today who see Dr. King as a heroic figure, and there are those who see Falwell as one. There remain those who feel they were victimized by Dr. King who see him as the guy who started all this "uppity n___" stuff. Sure, there was racism before that, and sure, there were "uppity n___" long before that, but boy, MLK sure did make it a whole lot worse. And indeed he did, "worse" being in the eye of the beholder. So of course those victimized by Falwell's hate see him as the "godfather of gay-bashing." Arguing that he did not create it from nothingness is pointless.

I was not particularly pleased with the outspoken celebration of the guy's demise, largely because of the backlash it would create. After all, he was 73 years old, way overweight, and realistically was due to drop at any moment. So the celebration as if it was some sort of manna from heaven was overdone. I was also not particularly enthusiastic about the Iraqis celebrating Sh's execution either. Too much like "Ding Dong, the witch is dead." I think the OP does a good job of shedding some light on some of the reasons for what those of us not in the line of fire might consider "over the top" reactions. It is pointless to quibble over the "degree of difficulty" of each of the points and try to stake out a different position and argue it ad infinitum. Everything is perception. The perception is what it is. A lot of people saw falwell as the Capo di tutti capi of those who seek to oppress and dehumanize them. And he encouraged that. So let people vent and then hope that creep Dobson doesn't grab his mantle and ratchet up the rhetoric. I suspect he will.

[Sapphocrat]

47. Here you go.

To some degree that is the Christian mission, to some degree that is the progressive mission.

It's not my place to make any assumptions about what the "Christian mission" is.

As for the "progressive mission," the only standard of behavior I want to impose is that no one be allowed to coerce anyone else into living as they live. Beyond that, I don't give a flip what anyone thinks, says, or does, as long as it does not interfere with anyone else's life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness.

Progressive seek to impose tolerance and non-bigotry on others, don't we?

And there's something wrong with that... how?

We impose laws on others, too -- and AFAIC, there are only two types of laws: Good laws that prevent people from doing harm to one another (from murder to speed limits to blocking access to a fire hydrant), and bad laws that unnecessarily restrict freedoms that cause no harm to anyone else (against, e.g., recreational marijuana use, gambling, and of course, marriage equality).

You don't have to agree whether anything in the latter group is right or wrong. What matters is that I don't want anyone stopping me from smoking a joint, dropping a few bucks in the slots, or getting married because they have a problem with those things. Now, I could ruin my own life by doing any of the above -- but it's my life to ruin, and no one else's to run.

In some of the posts on this topic, I have noticed a rejection of all standards, a sort of 'FU, I will say or do what I want no matter what anybody thinks.'

"Say or do," no -- nobody's doing anything except talking. I haven't seen any gay gangs getting ready to go picket Falwell's funeral or something.

"Say" -- you bet your buttons I'll express my honest opinion, freely -- and without trying to stop anyone else from expressing his or hers.

That sounds like a dissolute attitude to me, and we part company there. I will stubbornly argue most of my opinions, but I will never argue based on the unshakeable premise that my opinion is my opinion and I will have it no matter how illogical, irrational, or hate-filled it is.

My opinion is subject to change on many things. On this, however, it is extremely unlikely to change -- unless, perhaps, I hit my head and suffer complete amnesia -- because, on this subject, I speak from personal experience, and a lifetime of it.

You ascribe many super-powers to Falwell. He is responsible, somehow, for the actions of others, and for the speeches of Pat Robertson and the Pope and Fred Phelps, who he publicly abjured. Somehow he speaks and idiots are instantly brainwashed. What a powerful orator he must have been. He's like the Thomas Edison of homophobia. Before he started his ministry and the Moral Majority in the 1930s, there was no such thing as homophobia.

You've got it backwards. In truth, he was the one who ascribed "super-powers" to me. Did you catch that part about queers causing 9/11? Ever hear how the "feminist agenda" is all about encouraging women to "leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians"? And, while we're at it, how about that Pat Robertson (Falwell's frequent partner in crime) warning that God was going to send killer tornadoes, earthquakes, and maybe even a meteor to Florida because the city of Orlando allowed gay-pride flags to be flown along its streets?

Wow, I sure wish I knew how to tap into all these amazing powers I have! :eyes:

Seriously, if you can't see that Falwell was the figurehead and the primary impetus of the modern anti-gay movement, well, I can't explain it to you any more clearly. And you already know there are plenty of idiots hopelessly brainwashed into doing anything their leaders tell them to (Vote for the marriage ban! Support Bush no matter what! Kill Iraqis!), or perceive as being instructed to do (kill queers in the name of Jesus, keep your women down, whatever). If there weren't brainwashed idiots like that in the world, Falwell wouldn't have been able to feed, clothe, or house his ample self in style off the backs of millions of tragically gullible suckers who dutifully sent him their hard-earned cash every time he whined for it.

As a matter of fact, without legions of such brainwashed idiots, there would be no Freepers. You know this.

And you can't possibly believe I think that the rise of the current Radical Religious Right was an overnight phenomenon. For one thing, I watched it happen -- it took about 30 years to get to where it is right now. For another, you know the zeitgeist runs in cycles -- and some cycles, like the Dark Ages, last centuries. And then we have an Age of Enlightenment for a while. But somebody, somewhere, always acts as the catalyst -- and nobody pulled together so many disparate groups and turned the RRR into the massive political force it became in our modern age as did Jerry Falwell.

The RRR appears to be waning, but it will return. It may not happen in my lifetime, or I may find myself in a Gay Gitmo ten years from now.

So, come on, don't try to make it out as if I'm saying Falwell waved a magic wand or something. Geez.

Yes he did encourage the hate and the bigotry, and he did campaign for Republicans, but you act like he was a Johnny Appleseed who planted an entire grove of hate that grew into a great forest. I think he only managed to grow a couple of branches on a knarly old thornapple of hate that was already a pretty big tree. But, we, at least seemed to have learned his message - "it is a good and proper thing to hate some people based on what they say".

He was indeed a "Johnny Appleseed who planted an entire grove of hate that grew into a great forest." You forget that there were apple trees before Johnny Appleseed, too -- but there were many, many more apple trees in his wake.

As for any lessons of hate, that's not what I learned from Falwell. What I learned from Falwell was to be watchful, to be diligent, and to never allow myself to lapse into complacency again. It's a hard lesson, that is ongoing.

I never had the desire, the time, or the energy to waste sitting around hating him. My desire, time, and energy are focused on fighting everything he stands for, so that not even one more person has to endure so much as a verbal assault, much less get his head bashed in and be left to die lashed to a fencepost. I can't begin to describe to you how deeply gay-bashing, and racism, and every other injustice pains me. There will always be blind hate in the world -- but I need to try to stop it from destroying even one more life, no matter whose it is. I need to. It is my duty -- not as a gay person, or a woman, or an American -- but as a human being.

To me, that feels a lot more like love than hate.

[Jed Dilligan]

59. I think you're wrong about what "progressive" means

Your take on "progressive" seems to be borrowed from right-wing alarmists. "Impose tolerance and non-bigotry on others." I've never met a true progressive who wants to do that.

Progressives want health care, education, workers' protections, environmental justice, and a fair share in general for everyone, bigots and non-bigots alike. We want a political and economic structure in which the human flaws that will never go away are not as destructive as they are under laissez-faire, competitive and oppositional capitalism.

If you want to change people's thoughts and feelings, politics is the wrong place to be. Make movies. Write novels. Paint. Those things change thoughts and feelings. Any attempt to change them through policy will result in an enormous backlash. The "political correctness" movement in academia is, in my opinion, one of the great facilitators of Bushism.

Falwell's message was not "It is a good and proper thing to hate some people based on what they say." His message was "America should be a Christian theocracy in which corporations have a free hand and difference can be violently suppressed." And I will never, ever, concede that a person who says that is not worthy of our, and your, hatred.

[bpeale]

141. OMG!! this was the most satisfying post i have read in a long time

BRAVO!!!

[philosophie_en_rose]

62. Wow. A psychic.

You know exactly how everyone feels. How nice.

Thank you for being an example of civility on these boards. May we all learn a lesson about civility from you, so that we can understand how pathetic we are for not being as civil as you are. Because pointing out other people's pathetic immoral minds is so civil. And civil people who would never fuss about things always change injustice. Isn't that what this country is about?


:sarcasm:

[GeorgeGist]

41. If Satan was real ...

I would believe religion to be Satan's diabolic scheme to lose my soul. But alas, Satan is nothing more than misguided egos.

[dddem]

42. something has always bothered me about these ' leaders of faith'

I believe in God, and I believe in the message Jesus taught, so naturally, it has always confused me that if we believe that God is all powerful, and all knowing, and we believe that God created us all, how can we believe that God created anything that is less than perfect? How can we, as Christians, condemn what God created?
I wish one of these "leaders' could explain that to me.

[Straight Shooter]

100. I think there's some sort of scripture about "broken vessels" or "unworthy vessels."

Something to the effect that God created those vessels for the ultimate purpose of discarding them. It was a very twisted rationale of God's intent, and I'm hazy on the details, but I think if you'll do some research you'll find the verse I'm talking about.

Also remember that supposedly Satan manages to turn many of us into agents of evil, homosexuality being one of the methods by which evil is expressed. Oooohhh, scary. :eyes:

There are excuses for each irrational behavior of mankind. Maybe it was Paschal who said, "Men never do evil so cheerfully and completely as when they do it from religious conviction." :shrug:

[terrya]

43. Excellent. post. Highly recommended.

And thank you.

:thumbsup:

[vssmith]

48. Dennis James Kennedy, pastor of Coral Ridge

Dr. Kennedy is another Christian soldier

[yardwork]

49. This thread speaks to an ongoing issue, both here at DU and in the world at large

First, I think that many of the threads and posts critical of DUers' reaction to Falwell's passing were written by trolls or disruptors. Some of them were very easy to hit home runs off of and I found my anger turning to mirth over the past few days. Most of the posts by the etiquette police and concern trolls were unintentionally hilarious, and many of the responses from DUers were intentionally hilarious and highly supportive. I appreciate it very much.

HOWEVER, the point of your thread today is highly relevant and valid. While I believe that most DUers and many people in general are tolerant of queer people, some people's tolerance only extends so far. They're ok with us as long as we're quiet and don't ask for much. As soon as we start "demanding" genuine respect, real equal rights, and the recognition of our selves as actual people we start getting called "the gay mafia" and other epithets. Now, this is definitely a minority of DUers, but there are a few here that believe this, and they do create a somewhat unwelcome atmosphere for queer people.

Nobody agrees with Fred Phelps, but that doesn't mean that they saw anything wrong with the snickers ad either - and it's really tiresome of us gay folks to be complaining about it, ok? Why can't we just lighten up. :sarcasm:

Similarly, not many people on DU would come right out and say that they agreed with what Falwell said about gay people, but some people don't want us saying anything disrespectful about the good Christian gentleman, got that?

I mean, equal rights are one thing and a noble cause and all, but it's not ok to be RUDE. I mean, it's not like anybody died here or anything (convenient amnesia for Matthew Shepherd and the millions of others...).

Yes, it's maddening - and it leads some queer folks to say things in anger that we might not have otherwise said. Being marginalized has that effect on people. Makes us angry.

Again, I don't believe that this is the opinion of the majority of DUers. I don't think that it is the opinion of the administrators. The leaders of DU (and I include in that definition many highly respected posters) have made it clear that this is meant to be a tolerant and welcoming home to all progressives. That doesn't mean that we don't point out the occasional bad apple, though.

[sniffa]

52. outstanding post

:applause:

thank you.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

76. Where do I call anyone names in my post?

In your post, you call me "paranoid," suggest that I'm using "right wing tactics" and "politics of division." I'm also "alienating those who are on side." I've embraced "destructive anger" and I'm "calling others names and dismissing them." I am "emotionally attached to anger" and "strikout at others to justify feelings."

Please cite an example of my calling anyone a name.

It seems to me that you are calling me a lot of names, without any justification.

[Morereason]

84. Name calling and getting personal in posts

This is what I was referring to.
"First, I think that many of the threads and posts critical of DUers' reaction to Falwell's passing were written by trolls or disruptors. "

You were right that I was taking things myself a little personally and got caught up in it. We are all at risk with anger. I have removed the comments that were too directed. Afterwards I saw that you had put them in another post so maybe it would have been better to have left them.

Anyway, I am sorry I got personal. I am absolutely sure you are a decent person, as are the others posting here. But I still disagree with what is going on and believe we are only hurting ourselves.

[yardwork]

87. You are making huge gneralizations

According to you, everyone is either in one camp (dancing on Falwell's grave in an uncontrolled orgy of destructive anger) or another (calm dispassionate sorrow at his passing).

Take another look. Very very few posters have expressed anything like delight at Falwell's passing. A lot of us didn't comment on it AT ALL until a bunch of annoying posters attacked (a number of which were tombstoned, indicating that there were, indeed, "trolls or disruptors" as I noted).

Many of us understand perfectly the context of the anger being felt. If you are really "on our side" you will take the time to understand why we feel as we do.

[Guaranteed]

85. I'm not gay, but I understand marginalization.

Despite the marginalization, you have to rise above it. What do you think is the effect of responding to Falwell's death in this manner? More marginalization. And it doesn't help anything.

[BrklynLiberal]

50. Fantastic. Worthy of publication in magazines and newspapers around the country.

:wow: :thumbsup: :headbang: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Jade Fox]

54. The Right has an agenda.....

to re-define the Left's legitimate anger at creeps like Fallwell as "hate". It is a specific effort on the part of the Right to destroy the idea of liberal compassion. It is a tactic designed to get us to either let them define the lives of their leaders, or shut up.

We can't win this game, cuz the game is rigged. We can only point out, as you have, who has the real destructive anger, and who are the real victims.

Appropriate anger is not destructive, it is healthy.

[StefanX]

55. Right on, Sapph!

"Destructive anger" indeed.

[lonestarnot]

56. I share the anger here.

[nadine_mn]

57. There was been so much name-calling and generalization

Obviously I just joined DU so my opinion matters little but I have to address a point I think has been missed:
(1) there has been a group of posters who slam other DUers for being happy that Falwell is dead
(2) there are posters (like myself) who agree that everyone has a right to their feelings & opinions, but who PERSONALLY cannot bring themselves to cheer death of any kind

I have no use for the first type of posters - telling people that they don't have a right to their feelings and viscious insults I just ignore

But what I have seen in some posts and threads (not all - just some and that is what I am referencing to) is an overgeneralization towards the 2nd group of posters in the form of:

1. stating that we are mourning his death when all we are saying is that we aren't HAPPY, we can be glad his type of hatred is gone, but not happy someone has died.
2. calling us names - trolls, freepers, etc those are the tame ones
3. saying that because we aren't dancing on his grave we have no idea what its like to be a victim of his persecution and hatred and that if we aren't happy Falwell is dead, that deep down we hate gays. Telling posters that until they experience first-hand the effect Falwells hate had, they have no right to say anything. I respectfully agree to disagree - go ahead and dance, piss, shit whatever on his grave, just don't expect me to. Does this mean I condone Falwell? hell no, just means I think the world is better place w/out him and the best way FOR ME to respond to his death is do whatever I can to counter his message

I do not think I am better than anyone, I just deal with things differently, and I respect those DUers who feel sorry for Falwell's family, because they did lose someone who was a part of their life - good or bad. I respect those DUers who are glad he is dead. But don't accuse me of not getting it. I know what hatred is - as a child my dad abused me horribly - he would lock me in a closet for days, threw me down a flight of stairs because I tried to stop him from burning my mom. But what hurt me more was that he wasn't pissed at me - he was pissed at my mom, and I was just another way to hurt her, just like when he killed her dog. His indifference to me hurt me more....and I know there are thousands of other people who have experienced similar or worse abuse. I am not trying to compare pain - but just say that you bet I hated my dad - for years it consumed me. I wished him dead (at the age of 3 I tried to stab him with knife), I wished him pain. And then I realized that even though he was no longer physically in my life he was still controlling it - he still had power over me, he was still influencing my relationships, my emotions etc. That's when I was pissed at myself for letting anger and hatred get the best of me. And from that day my mission has been to make right what he did wrong - I am a vicitm advocate, I have worked with hundreds of abused women, children, and elders.

I am not saying that those who say they hate Falwell or are glad he is dead are consumed with hatred for him like I was for my dad. I understand that for some, they took his death as a way to vent all that crud out. I am just trying to explain why I, personally, can't hate or wish anyone dead anymore...not because I don't get it, not because I hate gays, not because I think I am superior to anyone, ... I am just tired of hate in MY life. I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

What has hurt me the most reading these posts has been seeing posters turn hatred and nastiness towards each other - and in that way Falwell is still spreading his message of hate.

No one opinion is right - instead we have a right to our opinions.

[Madspirit]

72. I Am Sorry

I was also an abused child. I am so sorry all that abuse happened in your life. I can understand why you would just want to distance yourself from anger.

I, personally, am one of the ones happy to dance on the fascist's grave but I understand where you are coming from and that it is how you stay sane with all your pain. I respect that. Just as I don't think non-gays and non-minorities can really understand our pain, I think people who were not horribly abused as children, as you and I were, can really understand THAT pain and why we have to do the things that we do, to stay sane.

Hugs to you and may your pain lessen.
Lee

[Bluerthanblue]

89. you said

what i have failed miserably to say

beautifully.

thank you-
for your well spoken, peacful words and for taking the time and the risk to post here.

Far too many people understand abuse, the effects of hatred, and sorrow.

I wish life were so different for us all.
but as a sweet voice sings:
"If wishes were changes We'd all live in roses And there wouldn't be children Who cried in their sleep"

:hug:
blu

[Guaranteed]

91. Hey, if you're not with the mob, obviously you're against the mob. nt

[Puglover]

136. By "mob" I assume you are referring

to the "pearl clutching" holier than thou finger waggers that have insisted some DUers don't have a right to their feelings. Because I have yet to see any of the folks that are happy that Falwell has gone to hell scold anyone for feeling differently. Only one side is on the attack here. Or haven't you noticed?

[EstimatedProphet]

132. I for one agree with you

For a lot of the same reasons too. I tried to say on Wednesday what you just said, but you said it much better than I was able to.

[Triana]

58. K & R to the Moon and the Stars!!! (n/t)

[Jed Dilligan]

60. Thank you, Sapphocrat

As someone who is frequently talked-down to by "Father Knows Best" "moderate" "Democrats," who are always quick to argue that my most desperate concerns are mere symptoms of political immaturity, I feel a lot of empathy for you right now.

The people who want to suppress your feelings are more similar to Falwell than you are, in that they want to impose control. They seem to be clinging to the last shreds of an old order, the "universal standards" that we inherited from a Christian-dominated, openly racist, sexist, and homophobic society.

The more such people are shocked, chagrinned, horrified, and dismayed, the better, I say.

[Sapphocrat]

112. And thank _you_, Jed.

I've read many (perhaps all) your posts on the subject, and while I've been able to restrain myself from saying a word about the issue until now, I have rec'd every one of your OPs. Every one is a keeper, and should be required reading.

"Father Knows Best" "moderate" "Democrats" = Best. Description. Ever.

That's all I can figure it is, too. Well, unless somebody can come up with a real reason for the attempted suppression, other than "Nice people don't do that!"

[Jed Dilligan]

133. I owe "Father Knows Best" to Moochy

via PM. Just to give props.

:hug:

[philosophie_en_rose]

61. Thank you for this thread.

Your post is thoughtful and kind. Thanks.

The ignorance in some threads equating criticism of Falwell to being the same as Falwell is ridiculous and insulting.

[EFerrari]

65. kick kick kick

[caseycoon]

66. EXACTLY!

Excellent post Sapphocrat.
Dying didn't suddenly make this hatemonger a decent man, and he is undeserving of any respect all!
:yourock:

[Forkboy]

67. I love threads that are so easy to K&R

:)

[mnhtnbb]

68. I was sad when Molly Ivins died and we lost a marvelous voice

of truth and humor. Why can't I be glad when someone as evil and malicious as Jerry Falwell dies?

I refuse to be made to feel guilty over expressing my emotions.

Nice post, Sapphocrat.

[DoctorStrangelove]

70. Anger in America

I agree that there is much to be angry about re: Falwell. But I wonder about the new role of anger in America. As anthropologist Peter Wood observes, Americans seem to be expressing anger more than ever before. I wonder why.

[Morereason]

71. The threads in this forum are perfect examples of destructive anger

Now it has turned into anger against those who really are with you. Now people are projecting their anger against percieved "villans" within their own community. Even building up a philosophy that there are "trolls" and "right wingers" here out to get them.
We are on your side folks.

[Madspirit]

74. If You Don't Get Our Anger

...and you use phrases...incredibly condescending and judgmental phrases...like "destructive anger"...which is just your own personal Pollyanna judgment...NO...you are not on my side.

Why did you even bother to post in this thread? I am not saying, just btw, that you had no right to. I am asking why you bother...if the anger "gets" to you? You are trying to tell us how to feel and how to behave. Stop it. It won't work and you will make no allies with US...the angry ones, nor will you change our minds.

Do you just enjoy posting pointlessness? I'm 53. I don't need to be taught anything by you. People like Falwell have fucked my life over...in GIGANTIC WAYS...and you just don't get that.
Lee

[Morereason]

75. Misplaced anger

I posted because it is apparent that the anger is turning toward others within your own camp. Nobody (at least I did not) said that you should not be angry. My point in my OP was that we should be "Civil", and not let the anger become destructive, which some of it was.
I have not posted exactly which posts and have not been personal.

I don't see this site as a "venting site". It is a discussion thread. That means alternative opinions are not only acceptable, they are expected. Why not welcome it. We are on a discussion board.

[yardwork]

77. Your attacks on my post are extremely personal. See your post #69

[Madspirit]

78. Never

I never said you couldn't have that opinion. Not ever. I said if that is your opinion, you have put yourself in the ..."not my ally" camp. There are consequences but no one told you you cannot have your opinion...and we can make our judgments of you based on it.

My shrink said there is nothing destructive about our anger at Falwell and I certainly will listen to her...with all those fancy degrees in actual real psychology...over you... Thank-you very much.
Lee

[Madspirit]

80. PS

In fact, my shrink said there would be something wrong with us if we weren't PISSED AS HELL.
Get over it.
I'm sure there is an Up With People meeting somewhere that you are missing.
Lee

[Bluerthanblue]

83. i hope you

are being facetious with this report of what your shrink is saying-

If not, I hope you think long and hard about your shrink's advice.

My shrink encourages me to find out exactly what i'm feeling, to discuss how those feelings effect me, and ultimately those around me, and how i would choose to feel if i could choose.

Your shrink should NEVER tell you that only certain FEELINGS are 'right' or 'wrong'-

Can you show me where people here have shown "all the love for Dead Jerry"?
I'm not asking this sarcastically- I'm wanting to see what you are so angry about at people here- I haven't seen any 'love' posts- but I'll be the first to admit I miss alot of obvious things. :silly:

thanks,
blu

[Madspirit]

92. My Shrink

My shrink as no fucking problem with anger. None. I never said she doesn't help me in other ways but she sure as shit doesn't tell me not to feel anger and in certain cases she says it's appropriate.

Also, WE have been expressing anger at Jerry Falwell. Others have been wasting a lot of space and time telling US how we are SUPPOSED TO FEEL AND BEHAVE. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on. NO ONE GETS TO TELL ME HOW I AM SUPPOSED TO FEEL.
Lee

[Bluerthanblue]

101. you

said that your shrink said there would be something wrong with you if you 'weren't pissed as hell'-

That remark is kind of important to me- because i've dealt with this on a very personal level-

When this situation came up in my own life, I thought i was supposed to feel 'anger' 'relief' 'good'- and i didn't-
Even those who were close to me, people who were well aware of the history had 'expectations' of what was supposed to be the 'response'-

So once again, there was something 'wrong' with ME- it was yet again evidence of being 'bad', having encouraged what was done, and deserving what happened.

No one should tell you how to feel Lee- They might not understand, they may ask you to help them understand, but there IS no 'right and wrong' to feelings. It is what we do with those feelings that can step over boundries into other people's 'comfort-zones. And when that happens there might be some discomfort for everyone. It doesn't make anyone 'right' or 'wrong'-

Your pain is very real, very deep and very valid- I ask you please not to forget that many people have been badly victimized in a variety of ways in this world. And many still struggle with the scars and continued wounding that happens as survivors-

I wish we could see our connectedness as fast as we seem to see that which divides us-

I'm sorry if my words have wounded you in any way. My intent isn't to cause anyone pain.
I mean that.

peace,
blu

[Bluerthanblue]

125. .

...?...

[Chovexani]

82. I have a question for you

I'm not trying to be snarky, either. Were you here during the 2004 election season? The aftermath of that election was a very, very difficult time for the GLBT folk on DU because there was a very obnoxious and vocal element who turned us into scapegoats, blaming us uppity queers for getting the Falwell crowd to the polls by demanding civil rights. Not all of those posters were trolls and RWers, either...some were long-time DUers (I'd go so far to say that most of them weren't trolls). Many of these same people are members of the pearl-clutching brigade in the Falwell threads. This is not an isolated thing, and GLBT DUers have a long memory. Not everyone here is "really with" us...in fact that element seems to be growing, which is why I don't come here as much as I used to.

I've come to believe that no one is "on my side" until their actions prove it. When you behave in a paternalistic manner and dismiss our feelings without even attempting to show empathy or understand the root of those feelings, you are not anything except blinded by privilege.

I'm tired of this Straight Man's Burden shit, personally.

[Morereason]

90. Yes I was here, lurking then

I remember a little, but my memory is not always the best. I totally understand the GLBT folk not caring for this man, as I do all the others (myself included) who very much did not like him. I don't mean to get your dander, but I don't think I paid a lot of attention to those posts because: A. The ones who were making the most noise were not representive of DU. B. There seemed to be a little oversensitivity and some of the same kind of heavy handed arguing going on.
I have in the past avoided these posts, but it was hard to do that with this event (Falwell).

I understand how you feel. I also understand how *I* feel. I could not stand the man, he was against everything I believe in. So don't think I do not understand.

Believe it or not my OP had *nothing* to do with anyone's sexual orientation.

[Chovexani]

98. That's cool

I was just pointing it out because some people don't know the context of a lot of the issues being brought up in this thread. There's been a history of otherwise good liberals telling GLBT folk to stop being so uppity...some people don't realize that supporting human rights for everyone is about more than voting against bigoted referendums. (I've seen a lot of the same sorts of dynamics at work around race issues on DU too.)

I'm not ashamed for gravedancing (as a Pagan I have a different worldview than most folks, and I don't share this society's hangups about death), I despised him because he was directly responsible for a lot of bad crap in my life.

I appreciate your post even if I don't share your point of view (though I think there's probably more commonality there than it looks like).

[Madspirit]

93. Whoohoohoo!

Another heroic post! Thank-you!
Lee

[Duncan Grant]

108. Bullshit. Prove that assertion or take it back.

Your generalizations:

"The threads in this forum are perfect examples of destructive anger" as well as, "Now it has turned into anger against those who really are with you" are assertions that simply aren't true.

I find your discourse to be overtly disruptive. There's no place for generalizations such as yours in a thread with this subject matter.

[Jamastiene]

130. I would never doubt that there are trolls here at times,

especially at high tension times like the death of a preacher known for his outlandish accusations against gay people. That wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but there are right wingers who come here from time to time just to disrupt and stir up trouble between us. It has happened before, so it is a reasonable prediction that it has happened again and will happen again. I don't honestly see how anything that has been said has been directed against real DU'ers at all.

[Chovexani]

73. What a beautifully eloquent post

Thank you for speaking for so many of us. :applause:

[StarryNite]

79. Well said

:yourock:

[Guaranteed]

81. You're rejoicing in death, and, of course,

it's wrong. It doesn't matter what Falwell did.

Even if Falwell had himself pointed a gun at your head, but was shot by a police officer before he could do any damage, there would be no reason for "rejoicing." People don't "rejoice" in the death of someone they are defending themselves against.

Our GI's in WWII didn't "rejoice" in defending themselves and our country against those who attacked us. They didn't feel proud for killing people. They DID feel RELIEF when the war was over, but it wasn't relief in death. It was relief that no more lives would be LOST.

But this doesn't even rise to that level in the minds of most. It's not direct defense of self from immediate danger. This was a guy who was exercising his free speech rights. While the things he said are deserving of moral condemnation, moral condemnation should not and does not include, rightfully, a death sentence.

It doesn't matter how many positive responses or recommendations a post like this gets. This mentality is pure wingnuttery, in response to wingnuttery. It remains flatly wrong, no matter how many people get together to give themselves solace in its wrongness.

[Madspirit]

94. Screw that

What patronizing bullshit. If you don't like it, don't read the threads. There is a handy ignore button.

Are you a woman? Are you a minority? Are you gay? If not, your opinion on this means less than nothing.
Lee

[Guaranteed]

118. No, I'm a fucking liberal. I've taken my licks.

Don't try to pull that shit on me.

[Duncan Grant]

107. You're the only person using the words "rejoice" or "rejoicing" in this thread.

I'm rather surprised to see you post this, BullGooseLoony.

If you'll double check Sapphocrat's post, I think you'll find she said relieved. Interestingly enough, you choose the word RELIEF to make your point as well. So, who's rejoicing here?

Now that we all understand that no one is rejoicing; I'd say your post is nothing but a projection. Furthermore, it's a revealing example of subjective judgment.

Your emphatic wingnuttery is the by-product of your own feverish little mind. Own it because it's yours - NOT ours.

[DemSoccerMom]

113. I respectfully disagree

with your viewpoint that it is wrong for the GLBT community to "rejoice" in the death of this man (and I use that term loosely). Your assertion that "People don't 'rejoice' in the death of someone they are defending themselves against" is both inaccurate and quite frankly, a bit naive.

When I was 15-years-old, a drunk driver struck a car I was a passenger in, killing my best friend (she was 16) and leaving me in a coma for a month and a half with a severe traumatic brain injury (TBI). The driver who had a BAC of more than 3 times the legal limit received jail time and was out in 5 years with "good behavior." I for one have always said that I would not hesitate to harm (read: kill) this individual if I were to run into him in a dark alley somewhere. To this day (almost 15 years later), I harbor uncontrollable resentment for this man. I would have no qualms dancing on this guy's grave.

To say that the GLBT community doesn't have a right to their feelings is, at best, un-American. EVERYONE has a right to their feelings, no matter what those feelings may be. For example, YOU (apparently) feel that Falwell's death should not be welcome news to those he persecuted. No one is saying that you don't have a right to those feelings. I may disagree w/ your feelings, but I would never presume to tell you that you have no RIGHT to those same feelings.

Just my 2 cents . . .

[Guaranteed]

119. It seems to me that you're saying the same thing to me that

I'm saying to the people on this thread. You're saying I'm wrong. I'm saying they're wrong. What's the difference?

[Sapphocrat]

121. Well, for starters...

DemSoccerMom "respectfully disagree(d) with your viewpoint," while you're running around screaming that everybody is "flatly" wrong, wrong, WRONG!

For another, you find personal insults -- such as "wingnuttery" -- necessary.

I could point out many other differences, but, frankly, I'd rather try to have a two-way conversation with a block of cement.

[DemSoccerMom]

123. Thank you. n/t

[Jamastiene]

131. One major difference between your example and what you are

saying is that we didn't kill Falwell. He died on his own without any action on our part. Feeling relieved is not the same thing as rejoicing, which is what you keep referring to.

Your post indicates that you seem to think we somehow killed him.

"Our GI's in WWII didn't "rejoice" in defending themselves and our country against those who attacked us. They didn't feel proud for killing people. They DID feel RELIEF when the war was over, but it wasn't relief in death. It was relief that no more lives would be LOST."

If anything, your example explains what many of us are feeling now that he can no longer blame gay people for everything from 9/11 to tornadoes any more. We are relieved that he can no longer do that, not rejoicing. If anything, the example you used is a contradiction to what you are accusing the OP of doing.

[Guaranteed]

145. The attempted reply that there is no "rejoicing" going on here

is disingenuous. I didn't say that the OP used that word, but "rejoicing" I believe is a very polite description of the behavior seen on this board after Falwell died.

[uppityperson]

86. I am glad the he is no longer alive and able to spew his nasty crap

Glad that his personal self influence is dead. The world is a better place having him dead. I hate him for what he did, what he encouraged and supported. I am glad he is dead. I will not sink to the depths he did, will not misplace my anger into desecrating his dead body. My anger, my hatred, those are fine. What I chose to do with it determines much of who I am.

[Madspirit]

96. I've

I've NEVER touched a dead body, let alone desecrated one. Ewwww. : P
Hi Uppity.
Lee

[uppityperson]

102. Hi Madspirit

Some deaths make the world a more humane place. This was one.

[tomreedtoon]

95. You see why George Lucas was right?

Lucas stole most of his ideas from other people (Jack Kirby, primarily) but he got this one exceptionally right. Anger and hatred lead to the Dark Side.

It's not bad enough that this glee at Falwell's death makes progressive causes look no better than Klansmen cheering around their latest bloody victim. It's that this "victory" makes people think that God is on their side - the exact same belief that Falwell had when he believed New Orleans was destroyed because God hates gays.

And the next time the right wing wins - say, when Pat Robertson gloats over the destruction of Disney World and says it's because of medical coverage for gay partners - he'll throw in the reason that so many cheered the death of Falwell.

Don't you people realize that this is the same thing that had Northern Ireland fighting all this time? Childish "I'll get you back" nursing of grudges?

Oh, yes. I do understand your anger. I just don't like it, I think it's counterproductive and I think you're wrong in justifying its continuance.

[Madspirit]

97. Take your Pollyanna

Take your Pollyanna crap and put it where there is no sun. ...and Disney World is going nowhere.

What a crock of crap.

Are you a woman? Are you a minority? Are you gay? If not, your opinion on this means less than nothing to me.

...and I don't give a flying fuck what Right Wingers think of me or our site and neither does Skinner.

...and George Lucas jumped the shark when he changed things.
Lee

[tomreedtoon]

126. Thank you for defining your character...Falwell's.

You've decided to be as big a jerk as Falwell. Of course, it's different for you because "I'm on the right side." Correct? Could another name for that be...chauvinism?

And unless I'm wrong, you say that if a person is straight or sexless, male and white, he is worthless. Lemme see...what would that be called? Could it be...BIGOTRY?

You have just proved my point. Unless you're willing to be a better person than the ones you fight, unless you behave and live by what my Klingon friends would call "honor," you're no better than your enemy.

[Madspirit]

128. Vacuous

We vented about a monster you vacuous, without compassion or depth, Pollyanna, homophobic creepy person. (...and I've been a Trekkie since Trek began.)

I'm no better than them? You are so full of crap it's not even funny.

Tell me...when was the last time I ever beat a straight man to a bloody pulp, tied him with barbed wire to a fence and let him bleed out over several hours. WHEN?

Let me know when I've done the following and btw...go to hell.

Matthew Shepard
On October 6, 1998, 21-year-old college student Matthew Shepard was tied to a fence in Laramie, Wyoming, pistol-whipped, then left for dead in the freezing night. He died six days later.

Brandon Teena
Born Teena Brandon and raised as a girl, he was living as a man known as Brandon Teena in Falls City, Nebraska, when he was murdered at age 21. In December of 1993, two men who discovered his gender raped him. His attackers later shot and killed him after learning Brandon had reported the rape and was to help police in the investigation.

Danny Overstreet
On September 22, 2000, a man looking to "waste some faggots" entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia and opened fire, killing Danny Overstreet, and injuring 6 others.

JR Warren
On the fourth of July, 2000, JR Warren, 26, who was black and gay, was beaten to death by three men in West Virginia, then run over by a car to make it look like a hit and run.

PFC Barry Winchell
Pfc. Barry Winchell, 21, was beaten to death by fellow servicemembers while sleeping in his cot on July 5, 1999 at Fort Campbell, Ky. His Army colleagues thought (correctly) that he was gay, so they killed him.

Billy Jack Gaither
Billy Jack Gaither, 39, of Sylacauga, Alabama was bludgeoned to death by two men on Feb. 19, 1999, then set on fire with automobile tires because he was gay.

Bill Clayton
On May 8, 1995, Bill Clayton, 17, committed suicide after having been brutally assaulted for being bisexual.

Tyra Hunter
On August 7, 1995, Tyra Hunter died after DC fire department emergency medical technicians called her epithets, backed away, and refused to render treatment on discovering that she was a transgendered woman.


(Courtesy of OUT magazine.)

Through 1994

ALABAMA
James Primus, 35- murdered, set on fire in his car, 21 June 1993

ARIZONA
Joseph Charles Holleran- beaten, assaulted, 24 October 1992, died May 1994
Duane Linsley- shot, 16 January 1994
Robert Haines- shot execution-style, 4 April 1994
Michael Despain, 24- burned, 6 June 1994
Thomas Frazee, 28- shot, 12 December 1994

ARKANSAS
Chris Miller, 23- stabbed and beaten, 30 July 1993
Ronnie Hugh Smith, 58- bludgeoned, found 25 February 1994

CALIFORNIA
John Garfield- shot, 30 May 1992
Cameron(Tina) Tanner- fall 1992
Mauricio Bassa- murdered, 22 May 1993
Keith Michael Ogden, 31- beaten, 7 July 1993
John Duncan O'Friel, 46- beaten, 8 July 1993
Father Ronald Maupin- multiple stab wounds, August 1993
James Graves- bludgeoned, 22 December 1993
Tony Ray- shot, 24 March 1994
Tommy Wenger, 24- multiple stab wounds, dismembered, 28 March 1994
Therman Brown, 50- gunshot wounds, 4 July 1994
Jon Simmons- gunshot to the head, 17 October 1994

COLORADO
James Holman, 36- multiple stab wounds, 13 February 1992
David Stewart- stabbed, 2 June 1992
Benjamin Zesch, 61- multiple stab wounds, 16 July 1992
*Robert Ferrell, 57- multiple stab wounds 15 September 1992
*Anthony carr, 33- stabbed, 26 December 1992
Randy Gonzales, 26- multiple stab wounds, 22 January 1993
Steven R. Heyman, 47- bludgeoned, 2 November 1993
*Bruce Hutchinson, 31- raped, bludgeoned 8 May 1994
*Poul Anderson, 54- gunshot to the head, found 23 May 1994

CONNECTICUT
James Maile, 25- bludgeoned, 10 December 1993

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Metro Area)

Sanford "Sam" Swift, 31- puncture wound to the head, 11 June 1992
Jack Cowles, 74- stabbed and bludgeoned, 21 December 1992
Kenneth Love, 42- head caved in, 21 December 1992
Ana Maria Rosales, 24- shot in the face, 7 January 1993
Alan Haskell, 30- strangled, 3 February 1993
Ricky Godbolt, 33- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993
Rogers Donahue, 25- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993
Eric Moore, 22- shot at point-blank range, body hung from a hook, 3 January 1993
Charles Logan, 47- multiple gunshot wounds, 8 January 1994
Paul McClure, 47- strangled, 5 February 1994
Frank W. White, 56- multiple gunshot wounds, 18 March 1994
*David A. Jarman, 38- strangled, 4 April 1994
Andrew Rowe, 53- multiple stab wounds, found 9 May 1994
Marvin Greenwell, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 10 May 1994
Stuart Jerome Moses, 33- multiple gunshot wounds, 17 May 1994
Shelton Thigpen, 74- strangled, found 23 June 1994

FLORIDA
James Flaherty, 52- stabbed, bludgeoned, and strangled, 14 February 1993
Michael Cooper,- multiple gunshot wounds, 11 March 1993
Craig Duncan, 20s- stabbed, March 1994
*Albert Alcie Morris, 37- bludgeoned and shot, 19 May 1994
*Walter Jammell Hinton, 43- murdered, 20 November 1994
*John Hardy Roberts, 59- murdered, 15 March 1994

GEORGIA
*Unidentified male transvestite, shot, December 1992
Elizabeth Kelle Davidson, 25- shot, 14 January 1993
Milton Bradley, 72- strangled and beaten, 5 May 1994
*Unidentified gay man- killed by serial killer Gary Ray Bowles, May 1994

ILLINOIS
Robert Harris- bludgeoned, 2 February 1993
Dennis Johnson- throat slit, 31 October 1993
Unidentified gay man, 70s- beaten, December 1993
Unidentified transvestite- multiple stab wounds, 18 December 1993
Unidentified male prostitute- multiple stab wounds, 31 December 1993
William Lemke- multiple stab wounds, 9 April 1994
Unidentified gay man- multiple stab wounds, 22 April 1994

INDIANA
Leta Dains- stabbed, 8 November 1992
Pamela Agee- stabbed, 8 November 1992
*Unidentified gay man, 22- murdered, 31 May 1993
*Unidentified gay man, 50- gunshot wound, June 1994

KANSAS
Unidentified gay man, 20s- bludgeoned, found 29 October 1994

KENTUCKY
Jack Gilman- shot in the head, 9 May 1993

LOUISIANA
Unidentified gay man, 51- beaten, 24 April 1993
Joe Balogg, 22- straight man stabbed by five men shouting antigay epithets, 12 November 1993

MARYLAND
Joey H. Jordan, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 6 July 1992
Marvin Johnson, 29- multiple stab wounds, 2 January 1994

MASSACHUSETTS
Thomas Carey, 39- gunshot wounds, 14 May 1993

MICHIGAN
Susan Pittman, 56- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992
Christine Puckett, 39- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992
Bruce Andrews, 28- multiple stab wounds, October 1992
Jeffrey Dansby- stabbed, March 1993
David Converse, 51- stabbed, 16 July 1994
Gary Rocus, 41- beaten and strangled, November 1994
MINNESOTA

Howard Liebhaber, 34- beaten and stabbed, 25 October 1992
Terry Oliver, 27- beaten and strangled, found 29 January 1993
Duane Swalve, 23- beaten and strangled, 29 April 1993
Craig Green, 34- beaten, 26 May 1993
Johnnie Williams, 48- beaten and strangled, 15 July 1994
Steven Fox, 25- bludgeoned, neck broken, 20 July 1994

MISSISSIPPI
Robert Walters, 34- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994
Joseph Shoemake, 24- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994
Stanley King, 24- shot, 15 December 1994

MISSOURI
William Childs, 27- beaten, stabbed, throat slit, 22 April 1993
Craig Johnson, 23- gunshot wound to the head, 27 June 1993

NEBRASKA
Brandon Teena, 21- execution-style shooting, 31 December 1993

NEVADA
William Metz- multiple stab wounds, 8 July 1994
Anton Walker, 54- bludgeoned, induced heart attack, August 1994

NEW JERSEY
James Septimphelter- strangeled, 5 March 1994
Harold Draper, 29- multiple stab wounds, 30 May 1992
*Thomas Mulcahey, 57- dismembered, 13 July 1992

NEW YORK
Julio Prado, 39- multiple stab wounds, 11 January 1992
Jesus Santiago, 24- beaten, 2 February 1992
Bernie Walsh, 28- bludgeoned and stabbed, 12 April 1992
Marsha P. Johnson (Malcom Michaels, Jr.), 46- drowned, 6 July 1992
Victor Bones, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 27 July 1992
Vanathan Pleasant, III, 21- multiple gunshot wounds to the head, 19 July 1992
Brian Burke, 36- bludgeoned, found 25 October 1992
David Schwartz, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 9 November 1992
Salvatore Caggiano, 50s- strangled and burned, 26 December 1992
Stephan "Stephanie" Chapman, 20- gunshot wound to the head, December 1992
Lawrence Andrews, 44- strangled and stabbed, 11 March 1993
George "Joe" Ortiz, 40- multiple stab wounds, bludgeoned, 27 March 1993
Roosevelt "Terry" Lewis, 30s- strangled and burned, found 3 April 1993
Charles Lee- multiple stab wounds, 17 April 1993
*Anthony Marrero, 44- stabbed and dismembered, 16 May 1993
Milton Setzer, 60- throat slit, 29 June 1993
Eric Price, 25- throat slit, 29 June 1993
Dwight Greene, 44- bludgeoned, 8 July 1993
James Seward, 42- multiple stab wounds, 28 July 1993
*Michael Sakara, 56- dismembered, 31 July 1993
Jimmy Hawkins, 50- multiple stab wounds, found 15 August 1993
Mervin Wallace, mid 50s- strangled, found 30 September 1993
Jeannie Fenmore, 48- gunshot wound to the head, 23 December 1993
Pauline Campbell, 34- multiple stab wounds, 23 February 1994
Bernard Friedman, 56- multiple stab wounds, 20 April 1994
John Stella, 33- gunshot wounds, 1 May 1994
Javier Munsuri, 40- gunshot wound to the head, found 28 May 1994
Richard Whitesell, 32- multiple stab wounds, 13 June 1994
Martin Parian, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 13 July 1994
Nelson Rawlins, 48- stabbed, found 30 July 1994
*Benjamin Rosario, 45- dismembered, 3 August 1994
Robert Kase, 44- 16 October 1994

NORTH CAROLINA
Carlos Stoner, 33- stabbed and beaten, 27 May 1992
Gerald Taylor, 66- multiple stab wounds, 20 July 1992
James Buchanan, 52- gunshot wound to the head, burned, 2 October 1994
Jerry Lee Dowdy, 50- bludgeoned, 2 October 1994



OHIO
Unidentified gay man- gunshot wounds, 13 October 1992
George S.- bludgeoned, mutilated, 10 January 1993
Eric Farrow (a.k.a. Ashley-Ann Summers)- gunshot wounds, found 20 November 1993

OKLAHOMA
Unidentified gay man, shot, March 1993

OREGON
Hattie Mae Cohens, 25- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992
Brian Mock, 45- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992

PENNSYLVANIA
Robert Hagan- throat slashed, found 9 August 1993
Paul Steekman, 47- beaten, 3 April 1994
Robert Harris- strangled, 5 October 1994

RHODE ISLAND
Roger Oliver, 23- beaten, near-decapitation 2 May 1994

SOUTH CAROLINA
Andre Jones, 33- bludgeoned, run over by car, 23 July 1994

TENNESSEE
Unidentified gay man- bludgeoned, 21 July 1994

TEXAS
Jose Rubio- multiple stab wounds, 1 July 1992
*Leopoldo "Paul" Quintanilla, 29- multiple stab wounds, throat and genitals cut, 23 June 1993
Nicholas West, 23- multiple gunshot wounds, 30 November 1993
*Larry Leggett- multiple stab wounds, 25 January 1994
*Joe Trevino, strangled and bludgeoned, 3 March 1994
Michael Benishek- bludgeoned and throat slit, January 1994
Tommy Musick, 48- multiple gunshot wounds, Feubruary 1994
John Anthony Burwell, 26- multiple gunshot wounds, 2 April 1994
Michael Burzinski, 29- gunshot wound to the head, 30 July 1994
Larry David Allen- multiple stab wounds, 18 August 1994

UTAH
Doug Koehler, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 15 August 1993

VIRGINIA
*Unidentified gay man, 27- strangled, 28 June 1993
*Unidentified gay man, 24- strangled, 3 September 1993
Gary Watts, 34- multiple gunshot wounds, 10 June 1994
*Henry Weatherford Jr., 50- shot, 13 June 1994
*Garland LeRoy Taylor, 24- strangled, 17 September 1994
Harold Coon- beaten and stabbed, 17 December 1994

WASHINGTON
Bradley Wantdler- multiple stab wounds, 20 June 1993

WYOMING
Roger Melner, 60s- bludgeoned, fall 1994


* Murder committed or suspected to have been committed by an antigay serial killer.


_Principal_Source_: New York City Anti-Violence Project report, 1994

[Duncan Grant]

114. "You People?" -- wtf?

A few questions if you don't mind:

It's not bad enough that this glee at Falwell's death makes progressive causes look no better than Klansmen cheering around their latest bloody victim.

Specifically, who are you comparing to a Klansman? I find this to be a contemptible use of hyperbole.

It's that this "victory" makes people think that God is on their side-...

Who thinks God is on their side now that Falwell is dead? Didn't you just make that up?

And the next time the right wing wins - say, when Pat Robertson gloats over the destruction of Disney World...

I was going to ask about Pat Robertson but who fucking cares how he rationalizes the 'destruction' of Disney World? :eyes:

Don't you people realize that this is the same thing that had Northern Ireland fighting all this time?

YOU PEOPLE -- The Northern Ireland thing (sigh). The Klan AND now, Northern Ireland?! You people?! What in the world are you trying to say? :wtf:

...I think you're wrong in justifying its continuance.

Based upon your post, I'd say we have a lot of work ahead of us. Why is the OP justifying anything? Isn't Sapphocrat simply offering a another perspective on "destructive anger"? And as far as you not liking it? Tough shit. I just don't like your frivolous use of the Klan, Northern Ireland or Pat Robertson either. :freak:

[Sapphocrat]

117. The Gay KKK.

Specifically, who are you comparing to a Klansman? I find this to be a contemptible use of hyperbole.

Contemptible, hyperbolic, and ever so unoriginal. Aren't you just floored by the similarity between comparing us to bloodthirsty Klansmen and Lou Sheldon's and Pat Robertson's comparisons of gays with Nazis? (Gee, come to think of it, I even referred to those very comparisons in the OP! Do you suppose that - gasp! - one or two people haven't actually read the OP?)

You know, I was just reading something published after I posted my OP, that said-- just a sec... Ah yes, here it is:

Falwell became a household name in the late 1970s with attacks on homosexuality that were often crude and dehumanizing. At a rally in Miami in 1977, just days before a referendum on a recently approved local ordinance to outlaw bias against gays, Falwell told the crowd that "so-called gay folks would just as soon kill you as look at you."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/18/AR2007051801392.html

Sounds to me like the "killer-gay" memes of Falwell and his ilk are so insidious and pervasive that some "liberals" don't even realize they're echoing them.

[Duncan Grant]

124. It looks like "you people" have made Falwell the latest bloody victim of progressive causes.

Speaking of bloody victims -- nice find with the "so-called gay folks would just as soon kill you as look at you" Falwell quote.
Heavens to Betsy! I'm shocked.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duncan Grant]

137. A deleted subthread. Bummer. I was looking forward to that response. (nt)

[Madspirit]

99. ...and LASTLY...This IS War

Nobody ever says boo about all the anger and rage about the war or about Bush. Falwell was an enemy of gays and he waged war against us.

Frakking Pollyanna thought control police concern trolls....blech.
Lee

[vickitulsa]

120. Nothing is more insulting that someone saying something like, "We're on your side,"

even if they really believe that, when they are (clearly to many) NOT on your side!

Just reading this entire thread was difficult because the very people who keep preaching their "morally superior" bullcaca about how we're wrong for rejoicing in the sorry end of a terrible human being and telling us that our outrage and anger demean us or lower the level of discourse from what they like to say is "civility" are the ones who keep generating more anger in us with their smug, lecturing comments!

I'm sure they would have appropriately arrogant "reasons" (excuses) to offer for their lecturing us, such as, "We're doing it for your own good," or "This hurts me more than it hurts you."

The trite, paternalistic sayings on which the likes of Falwell rely as they spread their hate. Or creative new turns of a phrase such as the very titling of his movement as that of "The Moral Majority." (Maybe he should have tried, "The High and Mighty Moral Majority" for more impact?)

Those who prattle out another old saw, "Don't speak ill of the dead," are forgetting that taking this cautionary advice literally and too far would mean we should only say kind things about Adolph Hitler!

Proclaiming onesself to be morally superior is treacherous ground, imo, no matter who does it. I know I try never to take it wrong when someone calls me on sounding preachy -- about anything -- or coming off like a know-it-all. Like most people of conscience and good intent, I re-examine my opinions and my behavior that is based on them with some regularity.

But because I inadvertently picked up as a child some of that know-it-all attitude from my asshole of a dad (who was wickedly abusive and flawed in some very deep ways, but very intelligent too), other people have at times brought it to my attention when I've stepped over that sometimes-fuzzy line. And I'm glad they did, and still do.

But as I work to correct my own character flaws, it's interesting how I've discovered I'm more keenly aware of it when someone else does the same thing I am trying to eliminate from my behavioral repertoire!

Those folks who keep telling us we're "just wrong" or somehow debasing ourselves or are destined to screw up the entire human race with our anger are ones who very often project onto others what they themselves are doing -- but they don't see it.

Some of them have taken the time to try to express their condemnation of us in calm and quiet tones, as though they will convince us with their sincerity or their intellect that we should change how we feel and behave. Sometimes those who do this fall into the trap of merely showing how completely they are buying their own BS; but others probably benefit from such efforts because they are at least trying to examine (dare I say even re-examine?) the issues and their own opinions.

So discussion can be a good thing between the camps, but it's still insulting when others feel they have a corner market on the truth and on how all humans "should" behave, and a mission to dispense their wisdom and guidance to those of us who fall short in their eyes.

Telling me you're "on my side," fellow DUers, does not mean you are on my side in fact. Saying such a thing can be merely a tactic to disarm another and render him or her more vulnerable to subtle coercion. The difference lies in the claimant's motivation, and that can be very hard for a listener to determine.

Most shrinks I know believe it's healthy to "own" one's anger and to find ways not only to express it but to deal with it in a non-dysfunctional form that enhances growth without "stuffing" one's emotions.

Anger on the whole as a larger issue is a very complex and tricky subject, of course. I think we all know this.

As MadSpirit notes, I, too, have seen no threads on DU in the almost-two years I've been here that were initiated for the sole purpose of decrying the anger over the war or other heinous acts and directly at this criminal administration, Bu$hCo, which is expressed on this board daily, voluminously, and in high decibels.

I have, however, seen some posts, infrequently, where some DUers -- even those who may express their feelings toward the pretzeldent and his cohorts in such terms -- comment on the level of this anger in this particular place. New members or visitors might especially report such an observation.

But then this board, according to its founder(s), was created for people who needed to vent or at least express that justified anger and also to discuss ways to deal with it, as we discuss all issues. Then we all work together to change things for the better.

Telling us that our anger if uncontrolled can be bad for us sounds like something you'd say to a 12-year-old. (No offense to the children -- it's appropriate then because they might not have learned that yet and need to know it.)

If those who talk to us adults that way think they're going to win us over or even "educate" us using such a tactic, they should look in the mirror and see if they really think that's going to work!

Then while they're gazing at their own reflections, maybe they should also ask themselves if they really ought to be trying to tell others how to feel and how to live....


Tolerance and serenity and forgiveness are great things. I hope those who preach it to me will be tolerant and serene and forgiving while I express my righteous anger! :D

And stop tell me you're on my side! I have to determine that for myself -- that's how it works, ya know? Your actions are the criteria on which such an assessment is made.

(Sorry, Lee, I ended up addressing the judgmental ones instead of you as this rant-of-sorts developed. I think you could tell that, but I just wanted to clarify in case there was any confusion caused by my lazy writing. :-) :pals:)

[JFN1]

103. Excellent post

But I think this is incorrect:

...the one man responsible for coalescing such a diverse group of hysterical haters into a vast, indomitable force, for giving them an unassailable excuse for hating us...

I don't - I can't - see these sorry excuses for human beings as an "indomitable" force. They are weak - weak in the mind, weak in the heart, weak in their humanity. They are strong, true - but only in the way a room full of panicked people are strong.

And they are FAR from indomitable.

[Sapphocrat]

110. Keep telling me that. Seriously.

I could use the shot of optimism. :)

It's just hard for me to imagine any comparable method of uniting the Left (a.k.a. "herding cats") as efficiently as the literal Fear-O'-God has united the Right. (But I'll continue to keep my eyes open for one!)

[JFN1]

115. Don't despair

We don't need to organize the Left against hate - that is what being on the Left is all about - being against hatred and discrimination and corruption and molestation and fear mongering and, well, you get the point.

When you despair, you give them victory, and for what? For hating loudly? For organizing their hatred? If we claim them victorious in this, they'll just move their hatred onto someone else. We must, therefore, continue to oppose them, their message, and their method.

A favorite author of mine once wrote: "Evil is essentially stupid and cannibalistic, though I admit, this does not make it any less dangerous. However, such a prominent fact does provide important insight into its inevitable defeat"

[pokercat999]

105. Your list is why the RW doesn't want hate crime laws. eom

[Sapphocrat]

111. No question about that.

Their "best" argument is that hate-crime legislation is really just a left-wing conspiracy to muzzle their hate free speech.

[calteacherguy]

106. I'm glad there is one less hate-mongering leader in the world.

Unfortunately, there will be others to take his place. The only way we can win is by the power of our ideas.

[BoneDaddy]

143. no worries

DU is working on creating more.

[Hekate]

116. 60th R. Last night even Bill Moyers let Fallwell's own words hang him

Bill Moyers ran a clip of Falwell spewing his pious hatred before giving his own commentary, a gentle-voiced and devastating summary of the truth of Falwell's career.

Reading through this thread was exhausting, as it brought up so many of my own feelings about the so-called Moral Majority and the fomenters of the "culture wars." Moyers also pointed out on another occasion that it was the Right Wing who declared that there was a culture war, that they declared it and fought it -- and that they have won. In other words, progressives, liberals, and Democrats did NOT declare "war" on anyone.

Back in 1992 it hit me hard that Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and the rest of their ilk wished me dead. Me and most of my women friends.

I'm not gay -- just moderately cheerful, if you can take a joke in this gloomy thread -- but I am a feminist. And pro-choice. And a Pagan. And have spent years of my life actively working for affirmative action.

Here's Robertson in a 1992 fundraising letter for the Xian Coalition:
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." ("Presumably on the same day," Ellen Goodman commented drily.)

And then there was the odious duo of Robertson and Falwell speaking on Sept. 13, 2001 about the causes of 9-11, a statement so shocking I could scarcely believe I was seeing it even after it was later quoted in a column in the LA Times:
"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way—-all of them who have tried to secularize America-—I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen."

"God will not be mocked"? Please, allow me to "mock" their god. I don't believe in a god so heinous, but apparently they do. This cruel god they keep referring to seems awfully akin to the one that motivated the 9-11 hijackers.

The kind of hatred spewed by Falwell and Friends has consequences -- they inspired and encouraged acts of hatred and violence. Clinic bombings. Torture of gays. Oppression of women and children. Quite the legacy.

My husband's sole comment when I told him Falwell was dead: "Now he can shake hands with Satan." Pretty strong stuff for a Buddhist.

Thanks for the powerful post, Sapph.

Hekate

[Sapphocrat]

122. Moyers had a great op/ed out the other day...

...I wish I could find it now.

But that's exactly right: The Wrong Wing declared the "culture war" (while the fabled "War on Christmas" appears to be a more recent invention).

Back in 1992 it hit me hard that Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and the rest of their ilk wished me dead. Me and most of my women friends.

Ditto whoever it was doing the demonizing and carrying out the stake-burning in 1662 -- and 1442, and...

And I wish history books were capable of imparting reflection as well as knowledge, so that experiences like yours and mine didn't have to serve as reminders to everyone else that Santayana was right.

Thanks for the kind words, Hekate. And I have a feeling your husband's karma won't suffer. ;)

[provis99]

127. well Falwell never attacked me or my type (WASP hetero) personally, but I still hated the bastard

Hating him because you were a direct victim is one thing; gays, feminists, pagans, Jews, Muslims, blacks, all should hate him. I'm none of those, yet I still hated him: because of his attitudes towards gays, feminists, pagans, Jews, Muslims, blacks. Plenty of people hated Falwell beyond those he directly attacked.

[Warren DeMontague]

135. Jerry Falwell blamed the still smoldering bodies of 9-11 on "pagans, gays, the ACLU and secularists"

That one statement ALONE qualifies him for no friendlier epitaph than "Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, schmuck" in my book.

Excellent OP. It's worth noting that many of these overwrought, hand-wringing expressions of "concern" over "our" response to Falwell's death have been identical to similar crap we heard peddled after the 2004 election, before the 2006 election.. you know, the (fill in the blank: gays, pro choicers, atheists, etc.) are "alienating the values voter" and "losing us elections". :eyes:

It's a giant load of bullshit.

Rock On.

[LWolf]

138. Relief is not anger,

and all anger is destructive when given free reign.

Anger is a reaction, and a reality for people. Anger can also be a tool of denial, distraction, and a weapon.

While I haven't commented on Falwell's demise, I don't count it as a loss. I'm not grieving, although I can feels some empathy for the people who cared about him. That's the funny thing about empathy; it's not selective.

I don't see displays of glee, celebration, etc. on the death of an enemy as "relief." I see it as giving ourselves permission to hate, behind the veiling cloak of "anger" or "relief."

In my book, hate is never something we should give ourselves permission to indulge in. Hate is the most destructive force on the face of the earth, and it destroys the hater as well as the hatee. There is nothing about hate that makes the world a better place.

Anger at Falwell and his fans for the harm they've caused? Legitimate, as long as it's not a cloak for hate.

Relief that his reign of hate is over? Legitimate, but premature. As long as hate is legitimized at any level by our culture, someone will step forward to fill that vacuum.

What is more powerful than the anger, fear, and hate that drives our culture? What is more powerful than destruction?

Empathy. Empathy is a force that makes the world a better place for everyone. It's a conscious choice, to allow empathy in, and deny entrance to hate. It's an act of creation.

We can choose to defend our right to rage, to hate, to hang on to all of the ill Falwell brought to the world, or we can choose to let it go. We can choose the lower path, or the higher.

Personally, I choose to acknowledge my anger, and then to let it go. I choose to use empathy to help heal past wounds; to carry empathy with me as I move forward.

Each of us chooses every day.

[greyghost]

139. Truly great post. K&R n/t

[JackBeck]

140. I've read this thread over and over since you've posted it.

And I can't find anything to add. Your OP and responses have been spot on.

You are an inspiration.

[BoneDaddy]

142. You miss the point entirely

At least from my point of view. Legitimate criticism of Falwell and what he had fostered were always up for fair game and ceaselessly calling him and people like him on their irrational nonsense is fair game for me.

I can even handle "destructive anger", it was the immature blood orgy that turned me off. Falwell won. He won by passing on his hate to you. He didn't die as you are carrying him around in you at this very moment. It would have been more fitting to give him no power, and move on instead of nurturing his hate in you and giving it expression.

Before that I thought liberals were "better" as people. Now I am not so sure. It seems that anyone who felt "victimized" by Falwell or his words believed they had every right to their bloodlust. It was disturbing.

I don't care that Falwell is dead but I do care that a large percentage of the people I find political affiliation behaved in such an ugly way. I expect that from the Freepers, not from liberals.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

146. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6534529

[truedelphi]

144. Gawd You are angry!

And Gawd I am angry too.

Every time I win an argument with a co-worker of mine (whose brain is under the philospohical thumb of her right wing minister), I am told I am angry!

As far as Iraq goes - She dismisses the situation with a wave of her hand - GW was given mis-leading information.

She dismisses the attack on our rights with another wave of her hand -we MUST support GW during these times of trouble.

Looking for a common thread we can agree upon, she suggests corruption.
But who does she see as corrupt?! The Muslims and the gays!
ANd Gawd I get angry at the thought control that this one segment of society has - the right wing Christioan hate-mongers.