"Honor Killing," my ass. You cowards have NO honor. You are NOT men.

[Redstone]

Big brave MEN you are, that you'll gang up and kill a TEENAGE GIRL. You fucking worms, you worthless pieces of shit.

Tell you what: Come on around to my neighborhood. We'll show you how MEN act.

As they say in Brooklyn, I got your honor right here. Hanging.

Redstone

[William769]

1. agreed!

[napi21]

2. I agree with you, but our attitude is pure western thinking.

This honor killing thing is a religious and cultural thing with quite a few cultures, especially in the ME and in some oriental countries. We don't agree with it, but those who believe in those things feel just as strongly against the cultural beliefs and actions of the West.

[karlrschneider]

3. That's true. We exhibit our honor with bombs dropped from high altitude.

I know it's not an analogy, just pointing out we don't own the honor franchise.

[hootinholler]

30. Since when are high altitudinous bombings honorable?

I *know* you know better Karl. The douche bags who ordered that shit aren't Men either, they're, well, DOUCHE BAGS!

-Hoot

[karlrschneider]

61. I guess I didn't think I needed the

:sarcasm: smilie...

[Malikshah]

4. Or a few decades ago....hanging men from trees

or in Jamaica, hunting gays and lesbians with sticks and machetes in hand.

Yup-- we've got the market on honor and civility.

[smirkymonkey]

68. Here's a question....

What other culture MURDERS THEIR OWN CHILDREN due to their idiotic, outdated, barbaric religious practices?

thinking, thinking, thinking....

[Malikshah]

79. Lots do-- in a variety of ways.

You're focusing on this particular victim's age-- woman older than her have been killed for the same sick reason.

No one culture has a monopoly on cruelty

What *I'm* thinking about is how a person can castigate an entire "culture" so easily...

Oh, I got it-- lack of thinking.

[Redstone]

85. Exactly WHERE did I "castigate an entire culture?" And if I did, what culture would

that be? The culture that stones young women to death?

I'll castigate THAT culture all night long, and if you have an objection to me doing so, I'd like to hear it.

Redstone

[Malikshah]

95. Here

What other culture MURDERS THEIR OWN CHILDREN due to their idiotic, outdated, barbaric religious practices thinking thinking thinking

Bigotry is an evil thing-- to castigate but one culture for cruelty--- to focus on one and ignore the points I raised

You see, it's all about reasoning.

Because I brought up other examples, it is assumed by some that other cultures get a pass.

No-- that's sloppy, simplistic thinking, reasoning, logic.

I'll argue for eternity the sheer callousness of someone who will condemn but one "culture" (ill-defined and generalized word BTW) while giving others a pass. Any such cruelty and barbarity as was shown to this poor victim is condemned, but to ignore the other cruelties by focusing on but one (and when doing so--to do so in such a hamfisted fashion)...

Yup-- get a grip and look to one's own soul.

[Redstone]

105. Uh, that's YOUR post, not mine. I don't think I want to talk to you anymore.

Redstone

[smirkymonkey]

133. All cultures are cruel and violent, however what I am specifically

talking about is the practice of murdering one's OWN CHILDREN for something as ridiculously arbitrary as 'dishonoring' the family.

[Catherine Vincent]

121. This country did not long ago....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till">In remembrance of Emmett Till


:(

[smirkymonkey]

132. A tragic episode, but not exactly the same thing as murdering

your OWN children for "dishonoring" the family.

[Redstone]

6. What if that girl was YOUR daughter? Would you be so dismissive of the value of her life?

There's NO fucking excuse. Just none. Fuck any "culture" that would condone that.

Big, bad, brave MEN killing a TEENAGE GIRL for "honor." Spare me your "cultural sensitivity," please.

And your casual dismissal of the value of that girl's life by saying "well, we don't agree with it, but they do" is disgusting.

Murder of an innocent is NEVER justifiable.

Redstone

[alarimer]

8. I am with you there

There have to be some standards for basic civility. I think those standards start with equality of the sexes (or at least not treating women like chattel). I don't care if that is a Western idea or not. I think respecting another's culture only goes so far. Human rights trump everything else.

[Redstone]

12. That's what astonished me about that post, was the casual dismissal of the worth of

a human life: "Well, it's just a cultural thing, so it's OK that they murdered that girl."

Good God, I thought DUers were better than that.

Redstone

[Iris]

18. me, too, Redstone.

But we can always count on people like you who really ARE better! I appreciate the passion of your original post.

:hug:

[question everything]

52. Read more here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x916005

[azurnoir]

9. Her family were the ones that killed her

that is what honor killing is, it was also done in Korea to girls that were involved with American soldiers.And as they have now been arrested apparently the culture does not approve that much. I suspected as much.

[napi21]

11. Look at it this way. WE use the death penaltym even on retarded

"criminals". I don't agree with that either, but it sure seems to be accepted by a lot of Americans.

Your agrument is the very same as the reasoning the fundies use against abortion too. "You're killing an innocent child!"


I suspect the stoneing thing originated way back in the early days of history. Haven't you read about the bible stories of woment being stoned for committing adultery? The cultures in the countries who still do that have very strong religious beliefs that were never changed from those days thousands of years ago.

[Redstone]

15. The fact that WE do something wrong makes it OK for THEM to do something wrong?

I thought we all learned about "two wrongs not making a right" when we were REAL young.

I guess we didn't.

Redstone

[napi21]

19. No, I mean that people of all cultures USED to do the same things the

people who did the stoneing did. The western culture CHANGED with the ages, THEY did not!

Again, I don't agree with it, but I understand why they do.

I don't know why the western culture changed. What made us change from women wearing long dresses with high necklines to mini skirts and bra tops? O honestly don't know. I do know the people who still believe in this ancient practice (among others) consider us evil sinners and they don'pt want any of our culture to corrupt theirs.

[WildEyedLiberal]

29. I honestly don't give a fig about their "ancient practices" or "culture"

Are we going to make excuses for slavery or human sacrifices next because most ancient societies practiced those "traditions"?

The UN codified the basic rights of every human being in 1948 and any "culture" that doesn't abide by them is a culture that needs to change right now, or else incur the ostracization of every other civilized country in the world. There should be NO tolerance for barbarous inhumanity in the name of "culture" - ever. Maybe the idea of international human rights is a "Western" concept, but you know, sometimes the West comes up with a good idea or two. By the way, I think the idea of universal human rights originated with the Enlightenment.

[Redstone]

37. "Sometimes the West comes up with a good idea or two." Boy, is it nice to hear someone who

will say that without getting all apologetic.

Thank you for saying it.

Redstone

[Madspirit]

42. Thank-you

I said much the same thing earlier on a similar thread. I hate cultural relativism. ...and I hate excuses for barbaric and horrific acts of violence perpetrated against MOSTLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN. I quit being culturally sensitive when I first heard about female genital mutilation...or was it foot binding. Cultures start whining about other people needing to be "sensitive" when they want to commit an act of barbarism against one of their own, once again, USUALLY women and children.

...and I wish the rest of the world would put the same pressure on US about the death penalty, another act I consider barbaric. HOWEVER, at least it is reserved, in theory, for those guilty of horrific acts against their fellows. This misogynistic crap is just reserved for women who LOOK UP...want their rights, don't want to be shrouded, whatever...

I don't give a shit about your culture if you are torturing, maiming, brutalizing and killing your own citizens.
Lee

[alarimer]

111. Our actions in Iraq have not helped though

I agree with you about basic human rights. I don't think we can impose them with the barrel of a gun, which is apparently what we are trying to do, now that we have run out of any other excuses for invading that country.

As bad as Hussein was, women had it better than they do now certainly. Of course that's a lot like saying Mussolini made the trains run on time.

[leftynyc]

147. Extremely well said

There can be no understanding or excuses for barbaric behavior. I don't care how entrenched it is in a "civilization". Any society that doesn't give their women basic human rights is not worth saving. Cultural relatism is lazy, sophmoric thinking.

[DS1]

195. Damn right

Damn frickin right

[Redstone]

36. Yeah, there are still troglodytes around. I guess we'll always have throwbacks.

Thanks for explaining your post. I appreciate it.

Redstone

[Warren DeMontague]

39. So?

If a practice is fucked up barbaric, it's fucked up barbaric.

If anything, this is more reason why religious nutjobs should generally be kept far away from the reins of power.

[JI7]

125. women wear mini skirts and bra tops in the middle east

and other areas which are mostly muslim. yeah, people might look if it's a conservative area. but in most of those cases women aren't stoned to death for it.

Saudi Arabia and Iran may be the exception. in Iraq it didn't use to be like this before Bush allowed his fundie women hating friends to take over.

[Malikshah]

98. No but to condemn a "culture" for it while giving others a pass is

the ultimate in hypocrisy.


Jeez, I thought DU folk ... nah, too easy.

[smirkymonkey]

134. Why is it that people can never seem to stay ON TOPIC.

The subject happens to be honor killings, yet we have everything here from lynchings, to war, to capital punishment.

Why don't we just not discuss injustice anymore since bad things happen everywhere all the time so it makes it all ok? :sarcasm:

Sheesh!

Thanks for trying, Redstone :hi:

[Redstone]

138. Why, thank you, sm. I hope people read your post and understand it.

Redstone

[provis99]

112. so we should only execute smart people?

[Madspirit]

25. Right On Redstone!!...n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

28. AMEN

Being liberal used to mean standing up for human rights, not making excuses for any bloodthirsty murderous misogynist "cultural traditions" - whether ours or other people's.

[Redstone]

46. Being a liberal STILL means that, at least to me. Thanks for the post.

Redstone

[WildEyedLiberal]

56. Glad to k&r your thread, Redstone...

I appreciate REAL men who respect and honor women.

[GoneOffShore]

149. That's what it means to me as a liberal as well.

I'm not sure why some people here are not getting that.

I've never really got that part of "cultural traditions": "Oh, it's our tradition that we sacrifice a virgin every spring."

[karlrschneider]

67. I don't think Napi was defending their actions, just pointing out it's culturally normal

in some places. It's despicable to me too but I'm not absolutely certain my (or your) opinion is 100 percent "right" for "them."

They would condemn me for eating a ham sandwich. Outrage, like most everything, is relative.

[Redstone]

78. A ham sandwich equals a dead PIG. Is that equal to a dead HUMAN? A teenage GIRL?

Sorry, Karl, that's a fucking broken equation right there. Dead pig does NOT equal dead human in my book.

Redstone

[smirkymonkey]

135. Try saying that to a condemned Muslim woman's face.

:grr:

[woo me with science]

142. What a fucking moronic, absolutely brain dead statement to make.

You're not "absolutely sure" that our stance against picking up rocks and bashing them against a defenseless teenage girl's head until she dies screaming "is 100 percent right for them."

Wow. I'm sure all the young girls over there are really glad there are such deep thinkers in America pontificating on their culture like this. What a boon to liberalism, that beautiful mind of yours. I know you will keep thinking on that one, since you're "not absolutely sure" yet.

[treestar]

178. Therein lies the very issue

If she was my daughter, she'd be American.

If you were brought up in that culture, though, how do you know you would have the nerve to buck that culture entirely under the same circumstances?

[treestar]

179. If she was my daughter, she'd be American

Are you sure you would be able to go against your entire culture in the same circumstances? If she was your daughter in that culture, your relationship with her would be vastly different.

[TygrBright]

23. The fact that they feel strongly about it doesn't make it good or right or decent.

There is no moral or ethical justification for such evil.

adamantly,
Bright

[Matariki]

24. Expecting basic human rights for EVERYONE is not cultural hegemony.

I HATE that argument. Why is that the argument only when it comes to the women in a culture? Bullshit.

[Marie26]

128. Strange that.

The "cultural relativists" do seem to spring up almost exclusively on the topic of women's rights. It's really hard for me to imagine progressives making the same argument w/a straight face on any other issue. "But apartheid is part of South African culture, why should the UN impose its own values?" "Persecuting Jews was a part of European culture." It's ridiculous. Human rights are a universal value.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

129. Yup, any culture that treated a racial minority the way some cultures treat

women, would be subjected to UN sanctions, as South Africa was.

[The Magistrate]

148. An Excellent Point, Ms. Marie

There are odd features over-all regarding the 'cultural relativist' stance in this question, beyond the most important one which you have pointed out.

One is that, while proclaiming no culturally conditioned view is to be priviledged over any other, the line pursued in apologetics on matters like is actually a claim that the culture in which a thing like this occurs is to be priviledged over the culture of the person who criticizes it. That is what the admonition not to criticize an action like this because it violates your own standards amounts to: a demand that one table his or her own standards and accept those of someone else in responding to an act like this.

[geek tragedy]

33. Those who believe in honor killings are backwards

barbarians and savages, and are not part of the civilized world.

[smirkymonkey]

44. The "It's their culture arugument" is just as pathetic as the

practice itself. Murdering a helpless woman for ANY reason is barbaric and evil. Fuck their culture.

[eridani]

62. It's the universal pre-Enlightenment human norm

Not specific to any particular culture.

[Bread and Circus]

109. Bunch of goddam animals, killing a girl like that. Fucking depraved

No society or culture can tolerate the killing of children like that. No society should condone the killing of women like that. They're wrong, it's that simple. Just because they really really believe it's right, doesn't make it right. It's really really wrong.

Anyone that lives in a free country (well, mostly free)like America should thank their lucky stars, the Constitution, and the people who serve in uniform (as well as our legal system) that we don't tolerate and will never tolerate outright bloodlusted murder like that.

Sometimes, you have to draw a line in the sand.

I understand what they do and maybe why they might do it, but it's barbaric behavior nonetheless.

I fucking hate religious and even cultural fundamentalism like this and I hope to god (God)it ends someday and those that practice it are driven to change or driven from the face of the earth.

A society can be measured how it treats women and children imo.

[Redstone]

116. Good post, but how can you say that you "understand what they do?" They KILLED

a teenaged girl. How can you "UNDERSTAND" that?

I'd like to know.

Redstone

[treestar]

180. But what can we do about it?

Or, what should we do about it?

Maybe we should support the war after all?

Maybe they aren't a threat to our way of life, but should we threaten theirs?

We need to attack Saudi Arabia, too. They do this stuff. There was a horrible case in Nigeria a few years ago, too. They were going to stone a woman for adultery.

[amandabeech]

186. We don't have the wherewithal to attack anybody anymore.

But we can sure condemn it here and abroad and we can make sure that it does't happen here.

[treestar]

190. True, and I could even see a coalition going in on it

The case in Nigeria made me so sick I would have supported that.

Part of it could be our foreign policy, too, another one of those residual unfortunate effects. Women in the Muslim world were making progress, just like women in the Western world - especially in Turkey, and pre 1979 Iran, I believe.

If we didn't meddle so much, the Muslim world might not have dug its heels in so deep to defend their culture, which inevitably will involve going backwards towards its roots. We have that even without that - with the late Jerry Falwell and his ilk feeling "persecuted" because our culture's older attitudes towards women are falling off - so it would be so much worse when your culture really is threatened by the moving in of another, and the natural thing to do is to emphasize it all the more, in its past incarnations.

[shimmergal]

189. At least we can say loudly on the world stage

that it is IMMORAL and the killers deserve punishment.

God/Allah/*&$#@ knows the Islamic fundamentalists yell about our culture being immoral because of harmless things like bikinis and co-education. We can certainly yell back--to hell with cultural relativism when human life is involved.

And we can also add, in any media that's likely to reach them, some thoughts about how insecure in his own masculinity a man must be who tries to maintain his "honor" this way. Always hit below the belt if you want to have an impact.

[treestar]

191. We used to do that a lot more

Before we let the fundies have so much power. We would even have given asylum to any woman who could escape such a situation.

We used to be a leader in human rights issues, until Ashcroft and Gonzalez and Bushco came along and started turning us into Just Another Country.

[murloc]

120. There is right and wrong

Those that murder children are wrong. I don't give a damn if its their tradition.

[Maru Kitteh]

127. Well fuck 'em. An issue of Cosmo and a cucumber tomato salad

doesn't make me feel superior just as I promise NOT TO STONE anyone wearing a Hajab or kill anybody who wants me to take my shoes off in the entranceway.

[GeorgeGist]

131. Two religions ...

makes both wrongs right! :freak: :nuke:

[Brigid]

137. So that makes it right?

I think not. :grr:

[mcg]

141. It's still totally wrong,

I don't care how much they believe in it.

[cooolandrew]

146. I don't feel it's culturally insensitive to calll this inhumane, BUT our presence has...

.. brought about lawlessness to Iraq. We bombed infrastructure drained them of trade for 10 yeats. ANY nation not following the rule of law will go this way, this highlights the need for congress to practice justice. Their actions in this incident are inexcusable, but show exactly why we form government and laws to stop this, The government must be maintianed. Clearly theirs is dysfunctional and if America isn't careful chaos is only a heartbeat away. You only have to see the anarchy of civil war in cold mountain to see it could happen there and did happen unfortunately happen in America.

[bicentennial_baby]

154. Cultural relativism is bullshit....

If you claim to stand for human rights, all humans' rights, then cultural relativism is BS. I understand the argument when it's an adult making an informed choice (such as certain arranged marriages and such, even though I can't imagine that for myself), but when it comes to basic human rights, such as the right to exist, and I see a video of 12 or more adult men stoning a teenager to death, cultural relativism goes right out the window. They can take their religion and culture, and shove it. She deserved to live. Fuck them.

[mudesi]

175. Moral relativism, anyone?

This has nothing to do with "agreeing" or what we "believe".

They are wrong, period.

[JerseygirlCT]

184. You know what? Bull. Too bad. Time to get the hell over it.

There's absolutely nothing acceptable about these. Excusing them as "cultural" doesn't fly.

They're murder. And no matter how pretty the cultural package these men and their accomplices wish to wrap the murder in won't change a thing.

I have no patience for any expectation of cultural understanding when women's and children's lives are at stake.

This goes beyond culture, and right to the heart of right and wrong.

[amandabeech]

185. What is your opinion on what we should when killings happen here.

I believe that this did happen in the Detroit area, but I'm not positive.

Also, are you female?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

7. I guess you all never heard of the concept of "two wrongs not making a right"

This doesn't have a fucking thing to do with the horrible things we've done, and for you guys to try to use that as an excuse for this barbaric murder is disgusting.

We've done hideous, unforgivable things to the people of Iraq. So, that gives THOSE FOUR COWARDS a free pass to murder a young girl?

Nice thinking, there.

Redstone

[azurnoir]

13. Were did I excuse the murder

I did not, what we've done is not an excuse, in fact if you read my post my fear is that this would be used to excuse what we were doing and what our government is planning to do.

[Redstone]

16. I replied to your post by mistake. My comment was supposed to be addressed to the

people who dismiss this as "just a cultural thing," ESPECIALLY while at the same time condemning the bad actions of our own culture.

Do I need to say it again? I guess I do: The fact that WE do things that are morally wrong does NOT forgive OTHERS for soing things that are morally wrong.

Why the hell is that so hard for some people to understand?

Redstone

[WinkyDink]

10. They are cowardly murderers.

[uppityperson]

14. recommend greatly.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iris]

20. Did he also record it using his cell phone? n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Madspirit]

57. Please

Please do not compare a severely disturbed boy to OJ. They knew since the time he was tiny that Cho needed help. He fell through the cracks because no one gives a big shit about the mentally ill. My shrink said she has absolutely NO doubt that if he had help that would NEVER have happened. Don't just ignore the mentally ill until we shoot up a school!!

OJ Simpson is just a murdering misogynist.
Lee

[WildEyedLiberal]

31. He'll also probably end up in jail because his crime isn't considered acceptable here.

Meanwhile, these four evil fucks who killed that girl will get a slap on the wrist, if anything, because it's considered acceptable to murder women and girls who bring "dishonor" on their "family."

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. I'm sorry, I would disagree with them being "very decent people".

I guess I'm NOT a complete cultural relativist- or maybe I'm just an individual relativist. Obviously, this woman who got killed didn't subscribe completely to the cultural values she was killed over, so why is it okay that she was still subject to them?

I think that the folks who are so "repulsed" by sexuality, or liquor, or secularism, that they have to KILL OTHER PEOPLE over it.. are ASSHOLES. Pure and simple. They're assholes over here if they bomb an abortion clinic, and they're assholes over there if they feel the "need" to participate in an "honor killing". I don't buy the idea of culture as non-transcendable monolith. People are individuals and individuals have free will.

These shitheads don't get a free pass. Do I want to impose my values on the rest of the world? Yes, I do- and my values amount to:

"Leave other people fucking alone. If you don't like sex, don't have sex. If you don't like abortion or birth control, don't get an abortion or use birth control. Don't like consenting adult porn, gay marriage, liquor, end-of-life choice for the terminally ill or recreational drug use? Don't participate in them. BUT LEAVE OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES AND CHOICES OUT OF YOUR OWN PERSONAL FUCKING HEAD-TRIP."

And yeah, that's MY head trip. And I unapologetically think these pinheads would be better off if they would live by it.

[Redstone]

47. No. There ARE moral absolutes. Murder is ALWAYS wrong.

Redstone

[WildEyedLiberal]

48. Yes, it DOES preclude them from being decent people.

I have no idea how you can sit there with a straight face and say that raping and murdering women does not preclude one from being a nice, decent person. And this is supposed to be a "progressive" message board... my god.

I DO NOT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THEIR MISOGYNISTIC, BRUTAL, BARBARIC CULTURE. I don't give a SHIT what "excuse" a bunch of violent, evil MEN come up with to torture, rape, and murder women and children - it is NOT acceptable. And you know what, if thats my "Western" bias speaking, then I can say without hesitation that my "Western" values are ethically, morally, and rationally superior to theirs. Without doubt or hesitation.

So they don't like alcohol? Who gives a shit? They don't have to like alcohol or drink it or be exactly like us. But they DO have to stop murdering and maiming women and children. That's not "cultural" - that is BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Do you believe in the concept of universal human rights? Because if you do then you CANNOT allow exceptions for bullshit backwards evil "cultures" like this.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WildEyedLiberal]

71. Back it up, buddy. Show me where ONE DUer has defended Abu Ghraib

Here's a cluestick for you, pal: we DO "show the same level of hatred when our own government does the same thing." Or I guess you missed all the outrage when the Abu Ghraib torture came out?

Your excuse for the misogny and barbarism of these "cultures" is weak and sexist. How is what we do "100 times worse" than raping and killing women and children? Because the victims of the crimes in Abu Ghraib were predominanatly men?

Oh that's right, I forgot that crimes are "100 times worse" when committed against men than women. Silly me.

But please, go on defending evil acts of torture against women. Tell me I need to "understand" why they could possibly be compelled to stone a teenage girl to death. She probably asked for it, didn't she? Maybe I should labor to "understand" that in some "cultures" women are less than human. Maybe I should show some "respect" for those cultures.

What a load of misogynistic horseshit.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WildEyedLiberal]

73. The OP is about the brutal murder of a woman.

This THREAD is ABOUT "honor killing" of WOMEN.

But I'm just an overreacting, hysterical, shrill woman to you, right? Because obviously you don't consider crimes against women worth worrying about.

Thanks for showing your true colors.

[Withywindle]

153. Isn't it funny how...

whenever somebody starts a thread about violence against women (whether "over there" or "over here"), you ALWAYS get people popping up so desperate to change the subject?

[WildEyedLiberal]

168. Yup....

It's not "really" an abuse of human rights if the victims are "just" women.

:puke:

[Marrah_G]

74. I cannot believe someone on this board would justify this crap

Actually defending the stoning of women. Implying that is can be a good an honorable thing. I think you are on the wrong message board, because here we actually believe in the rights of women to breathe and have a pulse.

[WildEyedLiberal]

75. Read his reply to me

I'm "overly sensitive" for caring about a woman being stoned to death.

Utterly, completely disgusting.

[Marrah_G]

76. This crap has been happening for a very long time

I don't care if anyone here thinks "it's all just propaganda that they are showing it now. The fact is that they ARE showing it. FINALLY people are talking. FINALLY the world is beginning to see how horribly women in some of these communities are being treated.

I don't care WHY people are hearing about, I just care that finally they are hearing it.

[Posteritatis]

77. Don't forget the asinine way it was done

Apparently American or Canadian people aren't allowed to criticise crap like honour killings because our government has dirty hands.

Yep, that makes sense. I'm not allowed to find something these guys did to be despicable, because a bunch of other people who aren't me do similar things!

I guess that means we all waive our right to complain about anything, ever.

(I love the parallels, incidentally. Both attitudes seem to be coming out of this sense of "you're tainted by association with this other person whose actions you weren't involved in.")

[Marrah_G]

80. I gave a shit about this before 911 and I still care now

It's disgusting that a poster DEFENDING people who would stone a woman to death for the crime of trying to llive her life is still here. Not only defending.... but saying they are probably good people.

Where the hell are the moderators.

This is like saying we ought to legalize the hanging of gays, because after all those good fundies would only be doing what they think the righteous thing is.

[Redstone]

99. Well, if you dislike us so much, why are you still here? Maybe you'd be happier somewhere else?

Redstone

[smirkymonkey]

51. WTF???

"These monsters could be the nicest, most decent human beings out there, they were just doing their duty. Just as when an American male soldier rapes an Iraqi girl, she will be banished and maybe even killed, for she has brought shame to her family. Sick, twisted to us, but not to them. It still does not preclude those individuals being very decent people in daily life."

I'm sorry, but cowards who committ these acts against another human being are NOT the "nicest, most decent human beings out there" nor are they "very decent people in their daily lives" - What a fucking disconnect. Decent Human beings do not do such things to other human beings. Period! That's like saying evil, murdering Mafioso's are kind, spiritual people because they respect their mothers and go to church on Sundays. What a load of crap.

Face, you don't think these people are evil at all. In fact, I'll bet on some level, you quite admire them.

[Madspirit]

58. Fucking WRONG

Nope...there are some absolutes. You don't get to murder, rape, torture, etc....
Lee

[WildEyedLiberal]

60. Apparently this is a controversial notion at DU!

WTF rabbit hole did I fall down?

:crazy:

[Madspirit]

65. Yup

Cultural relativists make me SICK.
Lee

[Iris]

69. "If we lived in their culture we would see it entirely different."

How do you know? I bet not EVERYONE in their culture sees things differently than we do. In fact, I'll bet that girl's mother, grandmother, and sister might not agree with that culture at all, but what power do they have when the consequences for dissent are so severe?

[Madspirit]

82. Exactly Iris...n/t

[Redstone]

40. Excuse me? CNN "catapulted" that story PLENTY. Where were you?

Redstone

[WinkyDink]

63. 1. She suffered major burns, but lived; 2. The Iraqi murder was CULTURAL, not an aberration.

[Marie26]

21. You're really going

to stir up the "cultural relativists" with this one. Thanks for speaking up for this girl, & for the thousands of women who are killed because of this practice.

[Redstone]

53. "Cultural relativists" are cordially invited to kiss my ass as well. Murder is murder, and fuck a

whole bunch of "cultural relativism" if that's just an excuse for murder, or torture, or genital mutilation of young girls.

There ARE moral absolutes in this world, no matter your "culture" or religion, or whatever fucking excuse you want to use.

Redstone

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

81. So, ignorance equals excusing murder? No, I CANNOT "put myself in their place."

Fuck, no. You can apologize for them all you want to, but how would you feel if it were your daughter or your sister who was so brutally murdered, for being a woman?

I know you won't be honest in your answer, because you have a "cultural relativist" position to defend, but when you go to sleep tonight, dream of your sister or daughter being stoned to death. Then tell me that it's OK for her to die because "it's their culture."

People with opinions like yours disgust me. You rationalize murder. How the fuck can you sleep at night?

Redstone

[karlrschneider]

83. More than a few DUers would agree with the proposition, so roundly denounced by

the RW (demonizing Ron Paul in the process) that interference by the USA is somewhat responsible for our current dilemma. If you accept the premise, in principle, you can't condemn their cultural practices in the selfsame breath without being hypocritical.

As disgusting as we might find what they've done, we can butt out or butt in. We just can't have it both ways.

edit for small typo

[Redstone]

86. Balls, Karl. Murder is murder, and you know it. It's NEVER justifiable.

Redstone

[karlrschneider]

92. A sizable percentage of Americans call abortion Murder.

And of course quite a few think state-sponsored executions are too. I don't think abortion is murder and I suspect you don't either. Many if not most in the M.E. don't think what was done to that girl was, either. I guess we could put a stop to their nonsense if we just invaded their country. Oh, wait, we did that already...

[Redstone]

94. Yes, we did, didn't we? But that does NOT excuse them, and I know you feel the same,

if you just take a moment to think...a teenage girl, STONED TO DEATH, that young girl is DEAD, for "being impure."

What if that girl was our daughter? Would you think that "It's their culture" would make you feel any better, if it were your daughter who died?

Redstone

[Matariki]

166. Thanks Redstone.

What you said. 100% yes.

[Madspirit]

26. k&r...n/t

[I Have A Dream]

27. Thank you for this thread, Redstone. n/t

[firefox_fan]

32. Not hanging. Stoning.

[Odin2005]

34. Come on you cultural relativist bastards, defend this babaric crap, I DARE YOU!!!

Nothing makes me see red more then an intelligent, educated individual defending barbaric acts like honor killings and female genital mutilation in the name of "respecting other peoples' cultures." If defending UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS is "Western Cultural Imperialism" then I am a supporter of "Western Cultural Imperialism" and damn proud of it.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Nope. Intolerant, repressed, religon-brainwashed shitheads who fear free sexual expression

are assholes no matter what sort of hat they wear.

[WildEyedLiberal]

54. The FACT is

In the "West" you would be sent to PRISON for doing to an ANIMAL what men routinely do to women and children in these "other cultures."

I will proudly be an apologist for the West. Human and women's rights have a long way to go in America and Europe no doubt but as a woman I thank god every damn day I was born in the United States and not Iran or Pakistan or Sudan or wherever the hell else men consider it not only acceptable but necessary to mutilate women's genitals, throw acid on their faces for not wearing a veil, and rape and stone them if they have extra-marital sex - even if they are RAPED.

[Odin2005]

59. Exactly

I am also an "Apologist for the West" and proud of it.

[leftynyc]

150. Agree from the bottom of my shoes

This woman is glad, no make that grateful, that I was born in the West.

[amandabeech]

187. I'm with you 100%.

I don't like a lot of what's happened here recently, by God, I do not want to live in any of the places you've named.

My roommate is from Turkey. In all but a few neighborhoods in the largest cities, women cannot live on their own. They must live in the same house as a male relative. If they don't, they are considered a whore and subject to all kinds of abuse. That's Turkey, supposedly a western country. No wonder there are problems with Turkey joining the EU.

This kind of nonsense is the reason why she's here. She has very little freedom there.

[Redstone]

55. All righty, then! Thanks for the passion and honesty. We need more of that around here.

Redstone

[karlrschneider]

89. How do you feel about male genital mutilation?

Those filthy Jews do that...

:eyes:

[Redstone]

101. Karl, I'm trying to be a friend to you, so please listen to me: that's not a road we need

to go down, especially because it has NOTHING to do with this discussion.

Please? Asking as a friend?

Redstone

[karlrschneider]

167. Just got home from a trip. My comment was meant as reductio ad absurdum.

I was hoping you'd see that.

[leftynyc]

151. Do you REALLY want to go down that road?

I mean REALLY?

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Amen!!

[glitch]

43. The same should be said to the big tough men in the bush administration.

Only it wouldn't be for one teenage girl, it would be for 655,000 best estimate men, women and children.

Edit: murderers cut from the same cloth; arrogant, ignorant patriarchy and self-righteous fundamentalism.

[question everything]

49. Or give the women another "choice"

From

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=174367

Palestinians in Gaza and Israeli internal-security experts who studied the background of her case say Riyashi's husband had discovered that she was having an affair with a senior Hamas commander. Among conservative Palestinians, as in other parts of the Islamic world, an adulterous woman is often punished with death. Riyashi was given a second option: she could become a martyr (suicide bomber)

A disturbing number of women captured and interrogated by Israel recount stories similar to that of Riyashi, of feeling compelled to carry out an attack to restore her family's honor. In one notorious case, Wafa Samir al-Biss, a 22-year-old burn victim from Gaza, went routinely to an Israeli hospital where she received free medical treatment as a humanitarian gesture. Militants convinced her and her family that since she was disfigured she would never get married and that she was better off becoming a martyr. A surveillance camera at Erez checkpoint captured al-Biss's anguish and desperation when her suicide belt failed to go off. Later, crying, she told journalists, "Maybe I have been used" by the recruiters. Al-Biss intended to blow up the very doctors and nurses who had been treating her burns.

[bamacrat]

50. Honor killings? Almost an oxymoron.

Well at least the moron part. I mean this is stupid and these are the people we should be stopping not masked men who play on jungle gyms. I thought honor killings were a thing of the middle ages, just shows how far advanced we (the west) has become. No PERSON kills another PERSON for loving someone. Hope the fundies over here dont use this excuse when killing gays. ala Matthew Shepard.

[Reterr]

64. Agree with the sentiment against the "honor" crap, but its perfectly fine without the fake machismo

If I am reading your post right, you plan to what? Beat them up if they show up in your neighbourhood :shrug:? Are you implying you would castrate them or something of that nature? Am I reading that wrong? Now there is a real civilised solution. Isn't this the sort of thing we have courts and a justice system instead of mass lynchings for?


Why is there so much of this on the internet with men-this desire to let everyone know what big tough guys you are? It really reads like a bad Hollywood script. Its like those awful "Vigilante" movies from the seventies. So many posts on here are just dripping with this fake, icky internet testosterone.


I would think the solution would be setting up a legal system that would eradicate the possibility of such crimes, emancipating potential victims, giving aid to already affected people. This whole "I am a big guy and I would beat you up for being such bastards" is really silly.
Don't people get over this in grade school?

I always feel like posts like this are less about grief for the victim and more just a desire for a good fight. The poor girl here is barely even mentioned and seems like a prop. Again that may not be how you actually think, but the post sure reads like that.

[Madspirit]

90. I'm a Woman, a feminist and a lesbian

...and Redstone is actually one of the most sensitive men on this site. I kind of like seeing his dander up in defense of a woman, thank-you very much. He is also sincere and is NOT using this woman as a prop. Maybe you should get to know folks before you decide that you have them pegged.

I wish everyone got equally outraged.
Lee

[Reterr]

100. Thanks for the condescension

But a) I was talking about the post not Redstone as a person and so your whole "getting to know him" thing doesn't apply.
I framed my reply in a post-specific rather than person-specific manner, precisely so that it wouldn't be a personal attack. This is a public messageboard- I am not sure how someone can expect that it would never happen that some stranger reading their message would not misread it. Not everyone "knows" everyone here and therefore if you use a tone that some people don't consider very liberal, they are not going to just know that you are actually a very "sensitive man".


b)As for me I have been reading DU for 3 years and while this is not a personal attack, I can say that I have never agreed with this username's tone and many times opinion. So in my case, I am soewhat familiar with his posts and my opinion happens to be different from yours. Outrage is always good, but biased outrage, in my opinon, isn't.

[Madspirit]

104. I liked his response

I thought it was cool and good and progressive but whatever.
Lee

[Madspirit]

107. ...and gee

Sorry I thought you were replying to the OP...just because you were replying to the OP.
Wacky me.
Lee

[Redstone]

115. So, biased outrage in regard to women being murdered doesn't please you?

I'm sorry that I come across that way, and sorry that it offends you.

Redstone

[Redstone]

108. And you'd be perfectly wrong for interpreting my OP that way.

Just so you know.

Redstone

[Redstone]

143. Feel free to read post #140, if you'd care t take the time to.

Redstone

[Redstone]

84. OK, "cultural relativist" apologists, answere me this:

1) Is every human life worth exactly as much as any other human life? Or not?

2) Is any FEMALE human life worth less than any other, or worth nothing at all, "because that's their culture?"

Seems to me that if the consensus on DU is that the answer to question 1 is "no," and the answer to question 2 is "yes," then DU is not the place I thought it was, and I'll have to give serious consideration to whether it's a place where I want to be.

What say you, DUers? Do we make apologies for misogynistic murderers "because it's their culture," or do we stand for the most basic of human rights: The right to not get murdered because you happen to be female?

Redstone

[karlrschneider]

87. The answer to your #1 is unequivocally NO.

I know you disagree but I would wager big odds you would have little difficulty assigning relative "worth" if the choice were between someone you love and a stranger if it came down to a mortal choice.

Most all of us find what happened to that girl far beyond horrendous because we view it through our own cultural prism.
I think they're idiots because they won't eat pork - they think *I* am a HEATHEN because I do. Who is right?
Who gets to make that decision? You? Abdulla Somebody in Iraq or Iran or Singapore? Me? All this crap IS
relative. Your passionate desire to relegate it to black and white doesn't change that.

Hell, we (most of us) bitch about the fact that much of our current difficulty is precisely BECAUSE of our past attempts to co-opt the culture and religion of much of the world. Call me crazy, but I can't see how micromanaging the affairs of middle eastern countries is going to make things better. I'm pissed about what happened to that girl but I'm even more pissed about losing 3,409 troops in this misadventure.

[murloc]

124. Killing a child isnt comparable to eating a ham sandwich

Fact is, we are right, they are wrong on this.

[karlrschneider]

165. No it isn't. But not all people agree with you and me on this point.

What's right or wrong might be an immutable truth but I'm not in a position to say whose interpretation is the correct one.

[mudesi]

177. I'll make it easy for you

Those who are against stoning an innocent teenaged girl to death are right. Is that good enough?

Moral relativism is not valid.

[Posteritatis]

88. Colonialist! (j/k; n/t)

[Redstone]

93. No joking / kidding on this one, please. A young girl has been murdered, and there's no joking

or kidding about that, at least not in my opinion.

Human lives are not a joke to me.

Redstone

[Posteritatis]

97. True, though those who'd defend the murderers are jokes to *me*.. (n/t)

[rasputin1952]

91. Many of the people in that region seem to hold grudges for

centuries. I would be remiss if I didn't say that I think the whole notion of 'honor killings', 'female circumcision' and a host of other practices are archaic, and used more for an excuse to kill and spread terror than anything else. Just my opinion, but I'm starting to study the cultures of the ME in more depth, (I've had a cursory knowledge from World History and Philosophy in college). Since I've never been to the area, and have had little contact w/people from the area, I can only go by what I've read and heard.

But I do know people, and people who have power enjoy using it. In many ME cultures, the male has the final say, and they cover their decisions w/religion. While I find this appalling, and most likely would not have fallen into the, "I'm in their country, so I'll abide by their rules" syndrome in an instance like this, I do feel that education is the key to ending such atrocious acts.

But that takes too long. I'm not advocating a "Conquistador Remedy" as per what happened to the Inca, I do know that we could be more pro-active in protecting people that face such horrors.

This is sad, and far more prevalent than we know...:(

[malaise]

96. Sickening

I refused to watch it.

[slowry]

102. why now?

this isn't new. this isn't isolated to the M.E.

you could find a billion things to be outraged about. this is just propaganda

[WildEyedLiberal]

106. "It's not new" - so no big deal, huh

A 17 year old girl was brutally beaten to death for **GASP** being seen with a man. No big deal, though - happens all the time.

How is your callous dismissal of this girl's murder as "propaganda" any less offensive than rightwingers dismissing the Abu Ghraib revelations as leftist propaganda? You either care about human rights - ALL human rights, not just human rights that politically benefit you - or you don't. It's that simple.

[Redstone]

110. Why now? Because it happned NOW. Next question? Do you have anything to contribute

to the discsussion, or are you just here to throw in trollish questions?

Redstone

[otherlander]

113. What if you knew her?

[slowry]

117. What if you knew the tens of thousands who die of cancer,

or AIDs, or in car accidents, or in microwaves, or in garbage bags, etc. every day? My point is that this is true, fucked up, and wrong, but the fact that the MSM is pushing it 100x harder than the crimes of the people in fucking charge of the United States of America, makes me want to fucking puke. Just like the focus on the gassing of the Kurds, the crocodile tears * shed made me want to fucking ralph.

Timing is everything, and this is fucking propaganda.

Enjoy the 2min hate.

[Catherine Vincent]

122. This is terribly sad.

I think a lot of this exposure has to do with the cell video of it.

[smirkymonkey]

136. Compare it to the "epidemic" of child molestation going on in

the Church. It's been going on for Centuries, but only in the last few decades has it received any press - some say too much - and the faithful are calling it "propaganda". Yet, what it does is finally bring an age old problem out into the open and the victims don't have to suffer alone and in silence any longer.

The perpetrators are shamed before the world, as they should be, and the code of silence is broken. There are support groups in place and people keep their eyes open for potential situations where abuse might occur. All in all, children are safer and molesters are getting what's coming to them.

Maybe this will start happening in the Middle East - as the issue of "Honor" killings is brought before the world in all it's horror and exposed for the disgusting, barbaric practice it is, maybe some things will start to change for women in those countries. Maybe things will become more open. Maybe change IS what they need.

And before any of the Cultural relativists jump all over my ass, I would like to offer a pre-emptive "Fuck Off".

[Redstone]

103. Why do I keep seeing the word "catapult" in this thread and all over DU tonight?

Do we have a new rightwing attempt at establishing a meme going on here?

Hey, guys: It'll work as well as "screwn." So save yourselves the trouble.

Redstone

[The Magistrate]

155. The Reason You See It, Sir

Is because there are a small number of people who view anyone outraged by this murder as dupes of propaganda aimed at making people in this country eager to attack someone in the Middle East: 'catapult' was a term employed by administration media managers for getting out their message, and so it is employed in attempt to suggest rightist origin for the story, and even rightist sentiments in those who respond to it with anger, without openly calling them rightists and dupes of rightists.

People like this are concerned with human rights, and the rights of women particularly, only when it seems politically convenient to them. Violations of human rights are to be denounced only when they can be proclaimed to have been committed by a prefered target of theirs, such as a Western power or its military forces, and when violations of and outrages against human rights are committed by anyone else, they are to be ignored, hushed up, over looked, explained away, trivialized, shown to be nothing compared to what the 'real' violators do. People who do this are a very large part of the reason many of the people of our country do not take any of the criticisms leftists level at it at all seriously, because they read this highly selective and extraordinarily convenient combination of outrage at one and apologetics for another as indicating hypocrisy, and a basic frivolousness about serious matters. They figure that if leftists meant what they say about denouncing violations of human rights by the United States, they would denounce violations of human rights by anyone who commits them, anywhere in the world.

[Redstone]

157. Thank you, Mr M. That explained it quite clearly.

Redstone

[The Magistrate]

158. My Pleasure, Sir

As you may have detected, it is something that gets right up my left nostril....

[leftynyc]

170. Eloquent and right on the button, as always

You are a credit to this board.

[The Magistrate]

171. Thank You, Ma'am

Your kind words are a pleasure.

[Madspirit]

176. Right On Magistrate!

You said it PERFECTLY. Absolutely perfectly.
Lee

[The Magistrate]

193. Thank You, Ma'am

This is something it seems to me important for us on the left to get squared away on once and for all....

[otherlander]

114. Amen.

K&R
:applause:

[Redstone]

119. thsi is Thanks, m'dear. I have to go to bed now, but I appreciate the K&R. This a subject

I am passionate about (because I do love women and hate to see them be abused, much less murdered).

Some of the excuses for murder I've seen here are despicable enough that they test my faith in DU.

Redstone

[soothsayer]

118. just came back from shakespeare's gory Titus Andronicus

which kind of had that theme in it. things haven't changed a lot.

[reyd reid reed]

123. Murder is murder

and there's nothing even remotely honorable about it. And the authorities just stood by and allowed it to happen without intervening? What the hell do they mean "Provincial officials don't think much could have been done to stop the honor killing"? If no one even tried, then how can they possibly believe this?

This breaks my heart. She was a lovely young woman and no one deserves to die like that. No one, no matter what.

[Az_lefty]

126. their honor is right up there with the bush crime family...

:applause:

[JCMach1]

130. Ask whay they showed this on TV and you will come to some different conclusions?

CNN has stooped to snuff films and the demonization of the other... :(

pure propaganda

[Redstone]

144. Uh-huh. A MSM outlet tries to expose a despicable practice, and it's just PROPAGANDA?

Propaganda is information presented to promote a specific point of view.

The point of view promoted by CNN is that people shouldn't murder young women.

You got a problem with that? If you do, I'm REALLY glad that I don't know you.

Redstone

[bicentennial_baby]

156. I thought the video showing was inappropriate, but

less inappropriate than the act itself.

It doesn't color my opinion towards the Middle East, it's added to my mental index of upsetting things I've seen, but I see that stuff all over the world. And there's no excuse for ANY of it, no matter where it occurs.

[Redstone]

159. Well, I'm not so sure about that myself, BB. Maybe if people actualy SEE it happen, they might

get a bit more outraged, because it's not just abstract to them anymore?

At least I'd hope that showing the video would arouse some compassion. If it doesn't, then I'll agree that it's inappropriate for them to show it.

I just don't know.

Redstone

[LeftishBrit]

deleted (dupe)

[LeftishBrit]

139. This is sickening

And no, it can't be justified on the basis of 'culture'. All cultures sometimes practice things that are bad, and against human rights. But when they do, it is wrong. Murdering women is wrong. Not controversial, I hope.

When the USA and UK practice illegal war or condone torture, that is also evil. One abuse doesn't justify another.

This is not a justification for invading any country. It may be a justification for joining and supporting Amnesty International, which campaigns against all human rights abuses, including this sort.

http://www.amnesty.org

There are also relevant women's rights groups, including this one of Kurdish and non-Kurdish women specifically campaining against honour killings:

http://www.kwrw.org/kwahk/

[Straight Shooter]

162. Finally. I read through almost the entire thread and find where we can take positive action.

Thank you.

Expressing outrage at such an abomination against the human spirit is healthy, but to actually do something positive in the aftermath helps to channel the outrage more constructively.

[Redstone]

140. By the way, everyone: When I said "see how real men act," I meant this:

In my neighborhood, you'll see REAL men talking with their wives (not just telling them what to do or not to do), working together with their wive in the yeard and around the house, going places with their weives, and in general treating their wives as equals, not as servants or property.

You'll also see REAL men paying attention to their daughters, and doing everything they can to help their daughters be successful in life and to grow up with a healthy does of self-respect.

You'll see these same REAL men treat all their female relatives with the same respect.

And if a woman in their life screws up or just does something that one of these REAL men doesn't like, well, he might get mad ad her.

Might even yell at her.

But a REAL man desn't MURDER a teenage girl (or any woman) because she's "disobedient."

Redstone

[Reterr]

160. Cool

I agree with you-I just never know what people mean when they say things like "REAL men act this way". My apologies for misunderstanding it, but in my very uncivilised neck of the woods, people who refer to themselves as "REAL men" usually get drunk and beat up people as a solution for everything and thats not an uncommon in the south overall.


And unfortunately on DU (as well as on most of the internetZ) its not unusual to see ass-rapings and castrations etc. being recommended for various people who have committed horrific crimes. I don't get that and never will. However horrific a crime is what exactly is solved by descending to the level of the criminal and suggesting more brutality and violence as the solution?

Again apologies for misreading you but its gonna happen on the net if you don't make some things more clear now and then :shrug:.

[Redstone]

163. Thank you for that post. I understand what you say about "real men." That said,

I'd not hesitate for one second to act as executioner for those four men (after they'd been duly tried and convicted, of course).

Far as I'm concerned, a real man NEVER lays a hand on a woman. Ever.

Redstone

[Reterr]

181. "real man NEVER lays a hand on a woman"

Totally agree :toast:.

[Truthiness Inspector]

145. K & R

This kind of behavior is never acceptable. Ever.

[bicentennial_baby]

152. I saw the video on CNN...I wish I hadn't...

Why are men so afraid of women's free will? Why are they so enraged by a woman's choice as to murder her brutally? This I will never know, but damn, I always watch my back... x(

:hug:

[nam78_two]

161. If you want to do something about it

check out this web-site:

http://www.stophonourkillings.com/index.php

I have been involved in some letter writing campaigns involving NOW and Amnesty International but to be honest I have no idea how much good they do and I get alerts from these people, but again I have no idea how much good they do. I dropped out of one I was involved with in grad. school because I wasn't sure what was being accomplished. I think you need to be on the ground to actually effect any change.

There are many women's rights issues that don't get the attention they deserve :-/. NOW as been starting up some campaigns since 2000 to address "honor" killings but I don't think its a very beefy movement yet. If anyone had more information on stuff to do, charities and groups involved it would be great if they post it.

[Redstone]

164. I'll check it out, thank you.

Redstone

[BlueIris]

169. You tell 'em, Redstone.

:-)

[Withywindle]

172. Kicking again, Redstone. Thanks for this.

I've gotta say, of all the responses on this thread that incensed me, the worst was being asked to "put myself in their place." Meaning the killers.

Uh, no. What about putting ourselves in HER place? That's where compassion starts, with empathizing with the VICTIM. Not those poor, poor men being looked down on by us meanie Westerners who don't grok their beautiful ancient "culture" and why the brutal murder of women is an important "tradition" that we shouldn't judge.

That's a big root of misogyny right there - men who are so horrified by the very thought of having to empathize with a woman, of imagining themselves a potential victim of a hate crime, that they'll make excuses for the most vicious, savage, loathesome acts to avoid having to do so.

[WildEyedLiberal]

192. Bingo

Spot on.

[BlooInBloo]

173. (cut to Godfather scene with Sonny and brother-in-law on the NY street)

[leftchick]

174. it is the same in any number of Arab countries

which happen to be our "allies". Why the fucking outrage for Iraq?

[amandabeech]

188. This is about the girl, not Iraq.

The thing was caught on a cell phone. We are visual animals--that's why TV is so popular all over the world.

People were damned upset when the video of the Saudi princess getting stoned to death for loving the wrong guy (IIRC) came out. There was even a TV movie. That movie and that incident got a lot of people's attention, and many people, including me, lost a lot of respect for that culture, which seems to include the entire Middle East and much of North Africa.

[JVS]

182. I think what they did was wrong, but I doubt they'd give a shit about what we think is wrong.

In fact I think they'd consider the idea of considering what a bunch of "Western degenerates" or some such have to say about their behavior because we don't behave in a manner that is even remotely respectable to them.

[Madspirit]

183. I don't respect them

They would be right. I don't respect Bush; I don't respect these tyrants.
Lee

[JI7]

194. they should get their penis cut off and be left to die in pain

disgusting shithead fuckers.