Dad 'just snapped' before boy's death

[zazen]

Source: Raleigh News & Observer

DURHAM -- A devoted father who built a career helping the sick and the injured is accused of killing his 4-year-old son and trying to smother his other two children before attempting to take his own life.

Joseph A. Mitchell, 46, an out-of-work emergency medical technician, remained under guard at Duke Hospital late Wednesday, where investigators said he was being treated for self-inflicted stab wounds. On his release, police say, he will be charged with first-degree murder in the death of his youngest child, Blake Mitchell, and two counts of attempted murder. . . .

Mitchell and his wife had struggled to hold onto the $430,000 home they bought in 2001. Except for odd jobs, Joseph Mitchell had been out of work for more than a year. Neighbors said his wife sold Avon. . .

"If they had just reached out, we could have helped them," she said. "I guess he had so much pride he couldn't bow down and ask for help. That's the only thing I can see going wrong. ... We are just sick. We are devastated." A paper trail of court proceedings documents the couple's financial troubles.

Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/09/23/697865/dad-accused-in-death-of-son-just.html

---

This is just so sad.

The hiatus in financially distraught men going berzerk on their families was too brief.

Or, perhaps it's been ongoing and it's become too commonplace for the national media to report on it.

Is there some self-destructive sociobiological impulse that leads certain men to destroy their progeny if they can't provide for them? It's a crime that just makes no sense to me.

[ensho]

1. could be they consider their children as their own personal 'property'

so if they are going to kill themselves they don't want anyone else to have their 'property'.

there must be a psych term for this.

[nolabear]

20. The psych term for this

is "reaching a conclusion without facts."

Unfortunately people will do that, and others will take the ball and run with it, and a couple of posts down the road it's assumed to be truth.

[Tunkamerica]

42. by all accounts this guy was a good dad till this happened.

[CoffeeCat]

2. The middle and upper-middle classes are stressed...

...out the max, in general.

I'm in the 'burbs--and there are so many people with 400k houses who are hanging on
by their fingernails. Living paycheck to paycheck and maxing out credit cards was
all fun and games five years ago. Bush urged us all to go shopping, and it was
just the way of life. Everyone assumed housing values would continue to surge
and that jobs would always be there and promotions and more money were just
around the corner.

It's all been blown to hell.

I have spoken at length with a friend who leads a financial seminar that teaches
people how to manage money and get out of debt. Remember, this is in the affluent
burbs. The seminar maxed out this session and I've been told about couples who are
in tears, stressed and living paycheck to paycheck. These are people in 400k homes
who drive up in their BMWs and Lexus convertibles. On the outside, all is well.
Inside the walls of that seminar--it's agony. My friend said that she has go to jogging
after the seminar because of the pain, tears and fears that are shared.

It's as if the banks, the credit-card companies and are politicians who allowed all of these
lax regulations pass into law--walked our society to the end of the plank and then ran
away. Yes, people need to take personal responsibility for their spending choices and how
they use credit cards--or how much money they spend on a home. However, our institutions
used to be prudent. But that changed when they wanted to make billions more, off of our
recklessness. It's just so sad.

The people who attend that seminar represent those who are not in denial. They're asking
for help and willing to change. There are tens of thousands out there who are hiding.
They're too scared and too ashamed to admit what has happened to them. BTW, I'm in the
Midwest--in a state that has one of the lowest unemployment rates. This is not Detroit.
If we're in crisis mode here, there is no doubt that it is similar--and worse--across
the nation.

In my opinion, if the economy and the unemployment situation doesn't improve quickly--our
current situation is just the beginning. So many are barely hanging on and they will
begin to drop off. That means houses abandoned, bankruptcies and much, much less consumer
spending.

I taught the same seminar five years ago, and we had 6 couples. This time, there are 47.

[Alcibiades]

6. The irony is that Durham has been spared

We've been less impacted by the housing bubble and job problem than most communities. Individual results may vary, but macroeconomic conditions here have been better than in many places. We have made lists of "the best cities to weather the recession:"

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/109518/20-cities-surviving-the-recession
http://www.ehow.com/list_5849987_places-live-during-recession.html

and, recently, one of the best places to buy investment property

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/business/durham-tops-list-of-best-markets-for-real-estate-investors

Part of the reason for the latter, as the comments section of the article above shows, is that many transplants are steered by their agents to places like Cary and Apex, places that have "low crime" and "good schools." As a consequence, we avoided much of the bubble.

[Tunkamerica]

43. but did you see the guy's house?

it's huge. and with no job he wasn't going to keep it for long.

[MattBaggins]

61. I was going to be snarky and ask if this house was on a cul-du-sac

I looked at the Google map. Guess what this house was at the end of?

[elehhhhna]

95. 400K house on EMT wages? sheesh.

[laureloak]

10. OMG, WTF! Why didn't Mr. Stress kill himself and not the kid.

There is no excuse for hurting kids.

[Dappleganger]

35. Great post--quite revealing yet not surprising.

House of cards comes tumbling down.

[FirstLight]

76. +1000

well said...denial and fear are going to be the downfall of many folks...it is still happening and not looking better for miost. no matter if they said the 'recession ended in 2009'...we all know better.

thanks for pointing this out,
a whole psychological thing is happening here on a collective level, and the wakeup is harder for some than others...

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. I'm trying to understand why we think these people can AFFORD this life style?

An EMT and an Avon sales person buying a $400,000 house is just crazy, IMO.

[Jim__]

3. There is something called "Family Annihilators".

I don't know if it's actually a recognized form of pathology. One short excerpt:

The article describes how financial problems, loss of a job, etc, are precipitants, but what these murderers have in common is that the financial ruin reveals the Ponzi scheme of their life. He didn't just lose his job; he lost his job and he had debts his wife didn't know about. Or that he was really embezzling the money. Or he lost his job as a bartender so he can no longer pretend he's a bar owner. That's why these men don't murder coworkers, whom they may blame or be jealous of; they murder the people they were trying to deceive.

If you do a google on "family annihilator", you'll get lots of hits.

[valerief]

19. Interesting concept. nt

[ensho]

24. interesting - comes down to ego?

nt

[Dappleganger]

32. We had an incident locally...

where a guy took his own life. He had a huge riverfront home, lots of nice cars, etc. He ran some kind of financial hedge fund geared towards law enforcement. Anyway, it turns out it was all a big Ponzi scheme and the IRS started to go after him. He drove to a local park and shot himself. Of course every one of his friends and family members were shocked, they had no idea whatsoever that it was all a scheme. I can't imagine what his wife and kids are going through right now.

[Dappleganger]

34. Dug up the article

http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-06-25/story/sec-launches-investigation-federal-employees-benefits-group

"Jacksonville investment adviser Wayne McLeod ran a Ponzi scheme that raised at least $34 million from federal employees across the nation, authorities said.

The Securities and Exchange Commission said McLeod used the millions to finance his lavish lifestyle, which included a $1 million home on Julington Creek, three condominiums in Amelia Island worth $900,000 and a 38-foot boat named “Top Dawg.”

McLeod, 48, killed himself Tuesday in a Mandarin park, four days after telling investors the fund was closed and no more money would be paid out."

[Tunkamerica]

44. yeah there's no proof of any of that and he lost his job over a year ago

the real strain seems to be the mortgage of his giant house with no income.

[Alcibiades]

4. This is tragic

I am familiar with the neighborhood. Many of the folks there are from the northeast, as the Mitchells are: you can sell a modest home up north and get a McMansion there with no mortgage or a fairly small one, but probably not one with payments you can afford if you're unemployed and your wife is selling Avon.

Part of the problem is that, for years, we had a housing industry geared to selling houses like this:



to folks who make a middle-class income. A $430k house on an EMT's salary? Really? Their bank should be sued for malpractice.

Depression had to have played a role in this. I despair for the child that died, and the two that saw their dad kill him and try to kill them. No matter what the problem, you need to get help: killing your kids and yourself is not any sort of solution.

[Uben]

5. The guy was anEMT. His wife sold Avon.

How did they get a $430K home? A better question, How did he plan to pay for it? No wonder they had financial problems! I think they should sue the lending instution that loaned the money. This is what happens when banks are not required to qualify people for loans. If your house payment is more than 25% of your take home pay, don't buy it, you can't afford it.

[Alcibiades]

7. An unemployed EMT

My guess is that they had a huge downpayment. I think the article said they owed $145k on the home. Probably any bank would have made that loan in 2001.

[Uben]

8. I know there could be unmentioned circumstances.....

...and I agree it may have been affordable if that was the case. But, maintenance costs, electic bills, taxes, and insurance on a large home can still cost a lot. I imagine they were living on the margin even before he was unemployed, unless his wife was selling truckloads of Avon!

[Alcibiades]

21. His father-in-law lives with them

He has probably been helping, too. Still, it's not impossible to sell a home here, though I did have a neighbor who had to take a year to do it, and they took a real bath on it, what with all the improvements they had made that they did not recoup. But that was a 200k house: I cannot imagine that all these 300k+ homes in Hardscrabble Plantation have that many buyers nowadays.

[jayfish]

25. including the word "hardscrabble" in the name of a development of $300k+ homes...

is a bit ironic. ...don't ya think?

[Alcibiades]

36. I've often thought that, too

It's actually lovely country, forested land on gentle hills interspersed with horse, tobacco, dairy & miscellaneous farms. The family that lived there and gave it its name was one of the richest in Orange County: according to the development website, they called it that because it was "harder living than in Hillsborough." Almost all of the people who live there I know, and in a similar development in north Durham, are transplants who sold modest homes in the northeast who bought these mcmansions with the proceeds. The fact that some of them apparently bought homes beyond their means gives "Hardscrabble Plantation" a bit more irony than it, an admittedly already ironic name (how can a plantation be hardscrabble?), would have otherwise.

The reality is that, though some rural folks here probably had it hard, this place has always been wealthier than the folks in "Tobacco Road." It's tobacco country, but the rich part.

[elehhhhna]

97. Yep, my friends in near Chicago bought for 240, and have 8K in taxes on top!

She's been out of work for 2 years, he makes about 70K, and they're hurting. If they had a car payment they'd be up the creek.

[elehhhhna]

96. so if they unloaded it for 350K, they'd have had enough to

come down here to TX, bought a nice home for 150, free & clear, and had 200 in startover money.

That house could have saved them.

[valerief]

18. My thoughts exactly. nt

[Dappleganger]

27. I wondered that too.

Our house cost much less than half of that. But being out of work for a year, the only way they could hang on to it was to have massive savings or a very slow moving mortgage company.

For some reason it seems like middle class folks have a harder time of handling going broke that poor people (it's still hard but the middle class people "snap" more frequently than anyone else).

[HughBeaumont]

31. I don't know, but that loan officer and underwriter need to be kicked in their asses.

SOOOOO glad I got a home that has a very realistic chance of being paid for within the next 15 years. Yeah, I'll stay in that rather than get the balsawood McStatusSymbol.

[elehhhhna]

98. they are. all the mort. people I know (most making 150K+ at ther peak)

are out of work or "underemployed" at 40K, and losing everything,

[Ex Lurker]

48. That jumped out at me too. Not that an EMT doesn't deserve that kind of salary, but

they don't make it.

[Blue_Tires]

78. Doesn't really surprise me

as the real estate bubble kept growing, lenders were fighting to offer easy credit with low monthly payments to just about anyone with a fulltime job and a pulse...There were a lot more extreme examples than this that came to light after the bubble burst.

[bullwinkle428]

87. Banks giving out mortgages to people that weren't in the position

to pay them had to be the biggest contributing factor in the housing bubble. Of course, these bastards will never have to pay for the damage they've caused...

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. I have that same question

It's crazy.

[WingDinger]

9. Noone gives a fuck, till they can cluck their tongues at the dead, for not accepting THEIR ultragene

ultragenerosity.

[Matariki]

14. Yeah, I noticed that.

The comment from the neighbor was kind of ugly. Sure they would have helped - if only he had 'bowed down' and asked. :eyes:

[JanMichael]

16. That comment was from a relative that the family had visited

not too long ago. The relative also mentioned that s/he did not know he was out of work--

[Matariki]

17. Oh.

The OP makes it look like the neighbor said it.

[FirstLight]

11. your last sentence...

needs to be looked at and really studied, i fear for the families of the vets coming home too. but there is definately something freaky going on socially...there are stories of families with issues and financial woes and suicides and such seemingly happening weekly (daily?) but it happens to end up in the small news cycles, not natiotal because we don't want to think about the fact that an entire generation/demographic of people are not dealing well with extended unemployment and loss of their ability to provide...

long before 2008, i saw hints of this in my ex husband, he was abusive and it only got worse when he spiraled into joblessness...something does snap in a man i think when his ability to be the provider and alpha male is damaged...

:scared:

[jayfish]

13. "Your Last Sentence..."

was bullshit. There I fixed it for you.

[FirstLight]

57. ???

i was commenting on this:

Is there some self-destructive sociobiological impulse that leads certain men to destroy their progeny if they can't provide for them? It's a crime that just makes no sense to me.

why is that bullshit? i think it is very true...

[jayfish]

64. Is there some self-destructive sociobiological impulse that leads...

certain women to destroy their progeny if they want to shack up with some douchbag? In other words; what does this have to do with gender?

[FirstLight]

74. either way

i don't see this as gender bashing...it's wrong no matter what. MY thing is that we do need to look at the social and economic issues that make these things happen more often now...

There *are* instances in other animals where the male kills off progeny (usually about competition survival stuff), even females do too (when threatened especially)...there is a hard wire somewhere in our mammal brains that tells us to off them. We humans are just supposed to be 'higher order' and know better...humans have conscience, that's the difference. but somewhere there is a trigger that makes this happen, it's biology too...

[mopinko]

12. i think that the behavior of killing offspring is part of our

animal nature. yes, i know a lot of people don't do it. but the responsibility of raising offspring until they are ready to pass on that dna is something that we adapted a complicated social structure to accomplish. it can go wrong in a lot of ways, especially now days with no tribe to back us up.
women do it, too. especially newborn infants that they know they can't raise.

[AlbertCat]

38. More proof that heterosexuals should not be allowed to raise children.

[mopinko]

40. what does being hetero have to do with it?

and do you really think that gays don't have the same capacity? come on now.

we are all dangerous animals. the thin veneer of civilization is just a tissue, easily torn down and discarded. especially at the edge of survival.

[Tunkamerica]

47. i think albert's being facetious.

[madmom]

15. I can't imagine any home being worth that, honestly, if you have

to work constantly and can't enjoy the fruits of your labor why have it? I'm sure his family would have enjoyed a much smaller, simpler house with him and their brother around, than the mc-mansion and the struggles and stress it caused the family.:cry:

[Alcibiades]

22. That's certainly true

That part of the triangle--the area that straddles the Durham/Orange County line north of I-85, is lovely, with lots of horse farms and a number of other developments that are much more modest than Hardscrabble Plantation. Their home was one of the largest and most expensive in one of the most expensive (other than Treyburn) neighborhoods in the area.

You can get a very nice house within miles of their neighborhood for about 200k.

[marions ghost]

33. Right, but

they saw it as a safe investment at the time, I'm sure.

These McMansions were overbuilt, over-hyped, and oversold. I don't really blame the people who bought them for not seeing into the future. The current economic nightmare is an unimaginable event for many middle class people. Truly unimaginable. People don't understand the perils of capitalism run amok, capitalism that does not have any conscience or regulation. These are the consequences.

[madmom]

39. I am not by any means blaming anyone, but I really do not understand the mentality of

someone who will go out and buy something they have to work so hard to keep and maintain. Why not buy something a little smaller a little cheaper, so you can at least have some down time to enjoy it. Working 24/7 does nothing but make things worse. I guess I have just never been that materialistic.

[Alcibiades]

49. The value of these homes did go up and up

Up until 2007. Had they sold then, they would have made a tidy profit, but they had no reason to sell then, because he still had his job. The local paper said they didn't know why he left--they were not laying off EMTs here, then or now.

But you are absolutely right. It would seem that they could have used the money that they put down as a downpayment to buy a house outright. I live five miles from his house, and you can get a more modest, but still very nice, four bedroom home in a good neighborhood with a good school for about $200k. Hindsight is 20/20, though, and we also don't know if he struggled with depression or other issues.

A tragedy.

[marions ghost]

58. Seems obvious

that he was mentally deranged. I wonder if he ever tried to get help. There is more to this story than meets the eye.

[snooper2]

80. He left his job in 2002

"Joseph Mitchell was a Durham County emergency medical technician from 2000 to 2002. Emergency Medical Services Director Mike Smith said he did not know why he had left the department."

[Alcibiades]

90. Thanks, I had misread it

For some reason I had been under the impression he had only been out of work for two years. Eight is a much longer gap.

[Alcibiades]

50. They were also rather aggressively pitched

Everyone--the developers, the builders, the appraisers, the agents--made more money off the deal selling people "the most home you can afford." This particular home would be one of the larger ones in an already posh development. We were spared much of the bubble, though: the situation is much worse in parts of Wake County, and of course Chapel Hill.

[MattBaggins]

66. I blame the people that bought them.

I am no financial expert but I had enough sense to buy my house based on the tried and true concept of three years income, what percentage of my monthly take home pay I would be giving to the bank, and compared buying vs renting for my area. The hordes of people with 50K and less incomes purchasing 500K homes were stupid and should have known better.

[sendero]

93. I blame...

.. the buyers AND the lenders. But I blame the lenders the most, it is THEIR JOB to qualify buyers and they did a damn good job of it.

UNTIL it became in their financial interest to make loans that could not be repaid because they made money anyway.

[Xithras]

23. Most primate species kill their young from time to time.

Humans generally don't like to attribute our behavior to "genetics", but we ARE primates, and infanticide has been documented in all but one species of primate (the Bonobo). Reasons vary, but lack of resources is one of them.

Is it possible that there is still some "trigger" in the human brain that sets off this behavior? Sure. It's entirely plausible. Proving it is the hard part. And even if you did prove it, would that really change anything? Would we let child killers walk free simply because we were able to prove an evolutionary foundation to the behavior? Probably not.

[Dappleganger]

29. I dunno.

Do any primates chase away their older offspring so they can fend for themselves? that seems to make more sense (or just up and leave them).

[Xithras]

37. Evolution isn't about compassion.

Generally, when a primate engages in infanticide, it's for the benefit of the social group or of other offspring. It's a method of conserving resources.

Of course, it's more likely that there's another trigger in humans. There is a long and tragic recorded history of humans killing their children to spare them from future suffering. There are thousands of reported cases during the Holocaust, the African famines, the American westward settlement, and various Asian famines, where parents smothered or otherwise killed their children. When the parent(s) became convinced that the childs death was inevitable, they simply tried to find the most peaceful way for their child to die. If you give a parent the choice between watching their child slowly starve to death, as their body eats itself, or smothering the child quietly with a pillow before it suffers, I think you'd be shocked at the number of parents who would choose the pillow.

If these people are truly convinced that their lives are over, they might actually be convincing themselves that these actions are "merciful".

[zazen]

45. I agree--with the distorted thinking of psychotic depression

a parent really could think they were being merciful.

Of course, as you say, there are more cold, rational (in the anthropological sense) reasons cultures engage in infanticide. In this case, this was an intact family with more resources historically than ancient kings and with established familial attachments, so your theory about the other trigger in humans makes a lot of sense.

The Nazis threw living children into the ovens during the Holocaust. Any parent in that case would smother their child first, if their child literally had no other way out.

As other people have said, it's a matter of getting to parents first and disrupting the downward mental spiral before they equate their current situation, as bad as it may be, with the true horrors that we have seen in human history.

[pipi_k]

86. I agree....and....

as someone who has suffered from some pretty severe depressions in the past, I will also add that a person in that much pain also thinks other beloved family members may be suffering the same way...

I've had much the same thoughts myself in the past, but fortunately, never acted on them.

Not logical, by any means, but then, it's hard to be logical in that state.

[seabeyond]

62. evolution, the new cult like religion that will explain every poor behavior.

except it totally ignores evolving.

[Hello_Kitty]

67. And nature always gets it right, until the amateur biologist needs glasses. eom

[Xithras]

79. Many people confuse the words "evolving" with "improving"

Evolution is biological adaptation, whether good or bad, that permits the survival of a species in its current environment. It's entirely possible for a monkey to evolve into an amoeba, if time and conditions permit. There is no distinction between "good behavior" and "bad behavior", or "good evolution" and "bad evolution", only "evolution that permits the species to survive in changing environments". It's all about reproductive fitness. Morality has no role.

[elehhhhna]

100. it's worse than that. some ate their children.

think Cambodia, etc.

[elehhhhna]

99. i suspect Bonobos are simply smart enough to not get caught

[marions ghost]

26. Hardscrabble Plantation

living up to its name... So many people are in the same hardscrabble mess around the country.

It doesn't excuse the crime, but I do understand...

[deutsey]

28. Photo of the dad and his son

So fricking sad...

[Dappleganger]

30. Dammit

I hate where we are in this country today. :(

[zazen]

41. oh, what a beautiful little boy! very, very sad n/t

[lightningandsnow]

46. All the posters on this thread saying the father "just snapped" from financial stress make me sick.

He killed a defenseless child.

Many, many people are struggling in this financial crisis. The vast majority do not kill, maim, or abuse their children. If this had been a "welfare mom", rather than a middle-class father who had fallen on hard times, DUers would not be nearly so sympathetic.

"Devoted parents" do not murder their children while knowing full well what they are doing.

[zazen]

51. the Raleigh N&O title used the term "just snapped"

You might link to their article and express your opinion there too.

I frankly don't understand why they rescued him from killing himself so the State can then kill him. So I'm definitely not operating from a surplus of compassion.

Trying to understand what leads someone to do this isn't justifying it--it's raising questions that might prevent another such tragedy.

For example, people spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to prevent and/or change/deter batterers. Doesn't mean they condone it.

[Alcibiades]

52. It's inexcusable

I do think it's quite likely he was suffering from some sort of situational depression. That's an attempt at an explanation, not an excuse: there can be no excuse, but we are apt to look for an explanation when there's something so puzzling as this.

[X_Digger]

54. It's also guilt aversion..

.. after all, if those closest to him noticed something going on, but didn't want to get involved, it's in their own best interest to say that he must've "snapped"- otherwise, they'd share in the culpability (morally if not legally.)

[Alcibiades]

69. There's a certain amount of anomie in that type of neighborhood

Huge 1-acre lots might mean folks would spend a lot of time outside, but they don't, because it's the south, and it's really hot. The yardwork is done by contractors, and neighbors are at a maximum distance. It's not within walking distance of anything, other than your neighbors' houses, which you've probably never been in. By definition, you assume everything is OK, because, if everything were not OK, how could your neighbors stay in their expensive houses? Plus, the majority of people are transplants from somewhere else. Still, there's the pool and all the other common areas, but when people ask how you're doing, do you really want to say "I lost my job, am behind on my mortgage, and am feeling increasingly desperate, lonely and isolated?" No, you have your pride, so you smile and say you're fine. You push it all down into a hard black ball of stress that eats at your soul.

The thing is people really are nice here. My neighborhood is only a few miles away, but very different: nonetheless, I doubt his neighbors are much different from mine, and I've had almost nothing but positive experiences. I doubt very much the neighbors would notice anything, because he probably didn't want anyone to notice anything.

[zazen]

53. PS: this was moved by mods from LBN to general discussion

so, it's not clear that this is TITLE of the Raleigh N&O piece and not the OP title, which I cannot edit at this point.

If that were the OP thread topic intentionally, it would be in bad taste, indeed. But I was required to use it under the terms of Late Breaking News.

[superduperfarleft]

55. "while knowing full well what they are doing"

Don't you think that part may be important?

[seabeyond]

60. when the chemical in the brain has been shifted for whatever reason... explanation is hard

and black and white does not work.

you should know.

[lightningandsnow]

73. There is no evidence that this man was suffering from psychosis.

Or any mental illness, for that matter.

The stresses of life, as shitty as they may be, are not an excuse for murder.

[seabeyond]

81. and there is no evidence that there wasnt. the fact that the person appeared to be a good parent

until this moment suggests there was, more so than suggest just a bad day.

[lightningandsnow]

84. Many abusive parents appear to be "good parents".

I'm not saying this man was abusive before this incident, but appearances can be deceiving.

[seabeyond]

85. of course lightening... anything can be anything... we are reading a very small story

about a very huge event.

we. don't. know.

all things given, this was totally out of the norm behavior.

a 50-60 yr old woman took a gun to family in her home today. killed four. injured more. everyone went with snapped, and her health. men.... NO EXCUSE. well, no excuse, but maybe reasons.

my mom killed herself at 59. 58 years of normal. 58 years of being a good, kind, responsible, nurturing, loving woman. her last year, the chemical got fucked up with her thru depression. circumstances. events. actually about 6 months. we watched, we tried and she killed herself. that moment she did that was not ALL she was. that moment, regardless of consequences, was simply a MOMENT in ALL of her life.

it happens.

and it is happening more. maybe, we ought to think about why it is happening more and more.

[lightningandsnow]

89. I'm so sorry about your mom.

[seabeyond]

91. ya

me too. i think... if we could have just gotten her beyond that pain, that is all, then it would all be different.

when you watch, and you see, there is no rational in their thinking. none. nothing will make sense.

it doesnt excuse, but it is a reason. it isnt ok, and it is sad. but it is sad for the person that does it, too, in my book. they dont do it out of hate and ugly or narcissism, they do it, because their mind isnt working right, at the time.

i dont know anything about this man, but it makes me sad, not so much angry.

[elehhhhna]

101. oh honey --

thinking y'all could have gotten her beyond that pain is like feeling guilty that you couldn't have loved a diabetic into balanced blood sugar.

You don't deserve the guilt.

XO,
Elena

[slackmaster]

63. More very young children are killed by their own mothers than by men

It's usually written off as "post-partum depression".

[seabeyond]

65. not true.

30 percent were murdered by their mothers while 31 percent were killed by their fathers.

http://www.slate.com/id/2063086/

if you want to argue other things, sure. but just throwing stuff out there doesnt work. i think it is all sad. i think this situation is horrible. his life before with kids means something. if it is said the man was a good father and he did this... the reason wasnt rational thinking.

for me, that is sad

post partum depression isnt "written off" as if it does not exist. it does. it is a reality. that, too, is sad.

the is such a lack of empathy on du. i can feel so bad for the child that was murdered. and know the wrong. but i can see that there is equally a wrong for this father, too.

[slackmaster]

70. Whether or not my statement is true depends on where you set the age range of the children

Citing an article the puts the maximum age at 5 constitutes a goalpost move.

[seabeyond]

72. first one i grabbed. at the least, i googled to check facts. do you have a link that shows

otherwise?

[slackmaster]

77. "General Characteristics of Filicide"

Filicide is associated with various victim and perpetrator characteristics. The first year of life appears to represent a critical period, with the risk greatest on the first day of life.14–19 Neonaticides are almost always committed by mothers,20 as are homicides during the first week of life.21–23 While mothers are overrepresented in cases of infanticide,24 filicides that occur after the first week of life are often committed by the father or stepfather, with fathers being the most frequent perpetrators of filicide in later childhood.

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/35/1/74

Given that my previous post didn't specify an age range, it's really a nit. I read somewhere that there are only two crimes that women commit as often as men - Shoplifting, and murdering children.

[seabeyond]

82. women commit as often as men

30/31.... pretty much says as often. but that isnt what your post said. if you knew it was "as often" why not just type that instead of more....

[Tunkamerica]

92. because he/she wasn't quoting one specific slate article?

if he/she is wrong then that's one thing but criticizing the wording based on the first article you googled that agreed with you ... not much better.

[seabeyond]

94. actually poster first made the statement women murder children more.

then later said read an article where fathers and mothers murder the same.

that would appear that the info he had was that they murder the same. yet poster initially decided to claim mothers murdered more.

i picked the first article in google. you want to argue. you google. not important enough to waste my time. i was merely curious if poster was correct. i had no idea

[Roon]

56. I knew a federal police officer who took his own life

after having a heart attack and going on disability. He didn't hurt anyone else cept for emotionally though.

I just don't get it, I have had high paying jobs and I have lost them. I just adjust my lifestyle and move on.I guess it's totally different when kids are involved though.

[MattBaggins]

59. This wouldn't have happened if not for the NINV loans of this past decade

Why in the hell did he take a 430,000 home as an EMT? Why in the hell did the banks give it to him?

There is no excuse for this. He had options to deal with this and is a sorry excuse for thinking he should take his families lives over this.

[Alcibiades]

71. Probably because he had a huge downpayment

The article mentioned that there were something like $125,000 in liens, which would mean they put down more than 50%. He had a job at the time. This would have seemed like a good risk to any bank at the time.

[marions ghost]

75. Do you understand

mental illness? Nobody "thinks" they should take their families lives in these situations...it's not a rational act. The "excuse" is illness. But of course he will be paying for the rest of his life. I wonder if he felt he had any "options" for getting medical help himself?

[librechik]

68. EMTs the most poorly paid of professionals

my local Emergency service wants to hire at 9.80 an hour! Are they serious? That's who i want to be responsible for my life, someone barely above minimum wage!

[AspenRose]

83. EMT is a stressful job as well

pretty high suicide rates - any 1st responder :-(

[Odin2005]

88. Damn, just damn!

:(