Starhawk on Christine O'Donnell 'dabbling' in Witchcraft; finally someone from The Craft speaks up

[Hekate]

More at link.

Hekate

http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/starhawk/2010/09/real_witchcraft_deserves_respect--not_odonnells_dabbling.html

Real witchcraft deserves respect --not O'Donnell's dabbling

Whatever Christine O'Donnell may have dabbled in, it wasn't Witchcraft. As someone who is openly and publicly a Witch myself and the only Witch who is a columnist for On Faith, I find myself in a dilemma. On the one hand, I feel a natural urge to respond to this issue--on the other hand, the fact that we're focusing on O'Donnell's bad date instead of the multiple urgent crises that beset us is a measure of just how low the level of political discourse has sunk. I'd really prefer not to contribute to it. But hey, Sally Quinn asked me, personally--how can I say 'no'?

So let me just say this--had O'Donnell really 'dabbled' in Witchcraft, she might have learned that the Craft, as we call it, or Wicca as some prefer, is a remnant of the pre-Christian indigenous traditions of Europe and the Middle East. Witches do not worship Satan--we consider the Devil to be a purely Christian construct. We see nature as sacred, and human beings as part of nature. Our spirituality does not require belief in things we can't see--but rather an attitude of respect, awe and wonder at the everyday miracles we can see, the great and common mysteries of birth, growth, death and regeneration in the fall of a leaf or the phases of the moon, in the cycles of our lives and the turning of the seasons.

O'Donnell might have learned that Witches see all of life as interconnected, that we are taught to respect other people, to treat one another with compassion, generosity and honor, to protect the earth and to live in balance with nature. We can only imagine how her life, her crusades and her politics might have been shaped by an early encounter with the Goddess, for whom the body is a temple, sexuality is a path of deep and sacred communion, and who tells us "all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals."

Witchcraft deserves the same respect accorded to any other spiritual tradition. And O'Donnell deserves the same respect as any other politician: that we judge them by their record, their abilities and their policies, not by stupid, offhand remarks they made decades ago.

BY STARHAWK | SEPTEMBER 21, 2010; 8:04 PM ET | CATEGORY: POLITICS

[KamaAina]

1. I had your back the other day

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9180797&mesg_id=9180797

Blessed be!

[Hekate]

3. Thanks!

:hi: We had a few of DU's Own speak up, but responses were all over the map, so I thought it couldn't hurt to let Starhawk speak here. She managed to say everything in 4 paragraphs, too!

BB
Hekate

[ClarkUSA]

2. Thank you, Hekate. This is an excellent op-ed.

The Craft bears many philosophical similarities to Buddhism, Asian animism and Taoism.

[Hekate]

14. Margot Adler noted that too in her seminal (feminal?) Drawing Down the Moon

There are few in the movement who deny its eclecticism!

Hekate

[ClarkUSA]

25. How true.

It's universal themes are its most resonant draw to those who are not attracted to dogma.

[Ignis]

33. That's a good point re: the Tao.

Paganism/Wicca is one of the few Western approaches to spirituality that acknowledges a duality in the Universe without pigeon-holing that duality into the following categories:

White / Good / Spirit / Male
Black / Evil / Body / Female

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Uncle Joe]

5. Her more of the same trickle down economic policies; are what scare me.

Those are the same greed based policies; which drove our nation into its' current economic calamity.

I also don't believe she takes the overwhelming scientific evidence of global warming climate change as being a serious threat to humanity.

Thanks for the thread, Hekate.

[SpiralHawk]

6. Starhawk merits a wing wigwag from SpiralHawk

Well said. O'Donnell and her kind have spread so much ignorance and misinformation.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Starhawk is a great writer and it is joyous to hear her words

that is all.

[Norrin Radd]

8. kr

[Ignis]

9. K&R, but it's sad to see that DU supports anti-Wiccan bigotry.

It's not surprising anymore, but it's still sad.

[Hekate]

10. Kind of the minstrel-show variety of bigotry disguised as wit or humor. Mostly it's ignorance though

The ignorant can be taught if their minds can be opened. Those who think they're witty, not so much.

Hekate

[Ignis]

28. At least some action was finally taken against this bigotry.

I had forwarded a link to this thread to a few Pagan/Wiccan friends before it went south. After I received a few complaints, I tried to explain that the (now deleted) sub-thread did not reflect the view of the vast majority of DUers--but it was a tough sell, given that it's a moderated forum.

Perhaps we'll get a few new Pagan DUers out of this. :hi: You know who you are! ;)

[Love Bug]

24. Religion in general doesn't get a lot of respect on DU

Glad to hear from Starhawk on this.

[Ignis]

31. That's true, but the difference is in the application of justice.

Try posting about the "funny hats" worn by Jews during the "ridiculous" rituals practiced in their "made-up" religion, and the post wouldn't last five minutes.

And that's precisely as it should be: Bigotry has no place on the Left.

But we've seen several "free thinkers" make many derogatory comments against Wicca and/or the practitioners thereof over the past week, and they've been left to stand.

That, to me, is troubling. :dilemma:

[Love Bug]

32. Oh, I agree. There's a lot of ignorance here about non-mainstream religions

[demigoddess]

56. people in general have given up reading books or are too young

to have read many books. So they believe anything they hear on the news programs. Whose newscasters, not journalists, are woeful ignorant of so much. I can't stand to listen to them. except for keith. I ran into a guy a while back who saw my thing on the car that said Goddess bless and he thought I was against Jesus, I told him I had no problem with Jesus, just his interpreters. Would have loved to give him a long lecture on Witchcraft.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. For example?

[Ignis]

35. For example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9189411&mesg_id=9189506

It's a little hard to read in its current state.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Are you sure you're not confusing heresy to bigotry?

A lot of fundamentalists are known to make that mistake.

[Ignis]

37. Nah, heresy's peachy in my book. I was a heretic for years, myself.

But those of us with the will to crack open a dictionary understand that there's a profound difference between heresy and bigotry.

Here's an example of heresy (if one were Catholic):
"I don't believe that Transubstantiation substantively transforms the Eucharist into the body of Rabbi Yeshua ben Yosef of Nazareth."

Here's an example of bigotry (paraphrased from DU posts I've read):
"Wiccans are just a bunch of crazy, abused, black-clad women who've made up a religion out of whole cloth to make themselves feel better about their place as second-class citizens."

---

And thanks for the ever-so-subtle implication that I'm a "fundamentalist." :rofl: Do you have any support for that not-quite-a-claim, or is this just another salvo in your jihad against non-mainstream religions?

I mean, do you actually understand what "fundamentalism" means, or is that simply a bogey-man of a word you've dragged out in the service of (yet another) personal attack? What dogma are you not-quite-accusing me of holding as sacrosanct? What book am I taking as the literal word of the Divine? What theology do I claim is the only True Way? What dialogue am I refusing to have with other members of similar faiths?

:shrug:

Or hey, prove me wrong! Attack the rituals, beliefs, and practitioners of Judaism with the same vigor and bile you focus on Wicca. It's all rubbish in your book, right?

[dbt]

38. Don't feed him. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. heresy against wicca, not christianity.

Here are some examples of heresy as applied to witchcraft:

"women who were executed as witches during the Salem witch trials and in earlier periods were not "wiccans," but Christians. Wicca did not exist before the 20th century. They were executed as witches under the much older, original definition of the term- evil women who cast spells and consort with the devil. Of course they were not actual witches (under that older definition, modern practitioners of wicca who call themselves witches are another matter entirely) because there is no such thing. There are no spells or the devil, they were christians and were often victims of persecutions for other reasons then the destruction of a new age religion which would not exist for hundreds of years. The salem witch trials, was likely a land grab."

and another example:

"I dabbled into witchcraft -- I never joined a coven. But I did, I did. ... I dabbled into witchcraft. I hung around people who were doing these things. I'm not making this stuff up. I know what they told me they do. . . . One of my first dates with a witch was on a Satanic altar, and I didn't know it. I mean, there's little blood there and stuff like that. ... We went to a movie and then had a midnight picnic on a Satanic altar."

Anyhoo, to move forward:

"Wiccans are just a bunch of crazy, abused, black-clad women who've made up a religion out of whole cloth to make themselves feel better about their place as second-class citizens."

Well, it was made up whole cloth. In the twentieth century. But then again, all religions are made up whole cloth is one century or another.

That bit about "crazy" and "abused" probably would be a good example of bigotry. Where did you see that? Certainly not in the deleted subthread.

[Hekate]

42. There is no such thing in Wicca. There is no Pope to tell you there is only one path to truth.

I'm sorry to see such ignorance on display here, when all you have to do is open your mind and read. I would suggest simply reading my post #15 through -- if nothing else, maybe you'd stop conflating Pagans with New Agers, when the only thing they have in common is the 20th century.

Wicca is no threat to you or anyone else. No Wiccan or Pagan will ever, ever disturb your Sunday morning peace by shoving "Wiccan Watchtower" at you when you open the door. They won't try to convert you or your children. They will never threaten you with Hell-fire in a casual conversation. They really don't care if you are a Southern Baptist or an Atheist as long as you leave them alone. They have no interest in sacrificing your pet cat (or anything else) on an altar in the woods.

I know a retired County Sheriff who worships the Old Norse Gods, and was "out" enough about it that he was the go-to guy in his department for questions about whether one group or another was a new Manson Family cult or just the local Pagans having a potluck. He was also 6'4" so nobody felt like messing with him. Wiccans tend to be better educated than the average American, and unlike 40% of the rest of the country, are *not* Creationists. They are in all occupations.

Wiccans and Pagans are well represented in the armed forces, and Wiccans have finally won enough recognition so that the fallen can have a Pentacle represented on their headstones. In addition, this year the Air Force Academy set aside an outdoor worship area for Wiccans, Pagans, Druids and other practitioners of Earth-based spirituality. Both the headstone image and the Academy decision were important steps forward in religious freedom for our military. (For the Academy info, here's a link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/01/air-force-academy-gives-p_n_444800.html )

They're just people. :shrug:

If you truly despise all religions and think they have no worthwhile place in human society Pron, what do you gain by entering threads such as these to mock and denigrate? All that you do is make yourself look ignorant and bigoted, which is sad, because in other areas you are neither. Instead, why not just let other people handle the topic? Hide the threads.

Hekate

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. What makes you think I despise religions?

"what do you gain by entering threads such as these to mock and denigrate?"

Who's mocking and denigrating? You say that wiccans will never disturb my sunday mornings, or converting my children, etc. But here you are, playing the martyr.

[Ignis]

48. "But here you are, playing the martyr."

How so?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Claiming bigotry when there is none.

Claiming you're despised when you ain't.

[Hekate]

52. Abundant evidence in this thread and over time. I'm no one's martyr; I'm a scholar of religions

>> Who's mocking and denigrating? You say that wiccans will never disturb my sunday mornings, or converting my children, etc. But here you are, playing the martyr. >>

If you feel my words are disturbing your peace, my point is made. Avoid such threads in the future.

Occasionally I try to educate in response to ignorance, on the supposition that since this is an open forum, others might learn something even if the mind of the person I'm responding to is closed.

But I'm done. I've done my bit and you and I have no need to belabor the point. It's more productive to converse with those whose minds are open, because they and I can both learn something from the exchange. (And no, you are not on ignore, though you might want to put my name on your own ig list. Please.)

Hekate

[Ignis]

51. Thanks for taking the time to write a level-headed response.

You're braver than I. :thumbsup:

[Hekate]

53. You're welcome. Sometimes the latent teacher in me takes over....

As I said in my post #52 to HFPS, "Occasionally I try to educate in response to ignorance, on the supposition that since this is an open forum, others might learn something even if the mind of the person I'm responding to is closed."

But I'm done with him; he can go annoy someone else, and I can go have a real conversation with someone who cares for the exchange.

Thanks for your contributions.

Hekate

[Ignis]

46. No interest in taking the challenge to prove me wrong? Oh well.

Thanks for trying to use another posters' words against me, but I can only answer for my own writings.
And you know that. :hi:

Well, it was made up whole cloth. In the twentieth century. But then again, all religions are made up whole cloth is one century or another.

I applaud your philosophical consistency. Yet in application, you appear to focus your criticism on Wicca over other religions--e.g., Judaism, Islam--and the practitioners thereof.

Why is that? :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. "You prefer to focus your criticisms on Wicca over other religions."

Not true. I focus on historical fallacies. When Christians make false claims about history, like the idea that the world is 6,000 years old, I call that out too.

[Codeine]

41. I think all religion is as stupid as heck.

I don't make exceptions for New Age/Pagan nonsense any more than I do for Christianity or Islam.

[Ignis]

44. That's fair. But let's not fall into the ad hominem trap.

For example, some brilliant scientists were/are religious. I wouldn't dare call them stupid simply because they held to a particular belief.

Also, I think you're using a broad brush when you lump in New Agers with Pagans. The underlying philosophies--especially regarding mind-body dualism, respect for empirical data, and social consciousness--are very different. But YMMV. :hi:

[NeedleCast]

11. Real witchcraft deserves respect

Heheheh...yeah, I respect adults who call themselves Starhawk.

[underseasurveyor]

12. I Just gots ta know.

What then must you think of the likes of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Little Wolf, or Low-Dog?

Can I surmise that you wouldn't have any respect for these guys either because they have 'funny names?'

[boppers]

13. aka Miriam Simos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starhawk

[Ignis]

30. ^^^ For those who don't know Starhawk...

She's been a strong voice for the very natural intersection of politics, feminism, environmentalism, peace/justice activism, and earth-based spirituality for several decades.

I particularly recommend her books Dreaming the Dark and Truth or Dare to those who are interested in learning more about the non-religious aspects of the list above.

Here are some of her writings on activism--mostly first-hand accounts:
http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/activism-writings.html

[Hekate]

15. While I was crafting this reply an entire subthread was deleted. Well, too good to waste, imo!

On the eclecticism and recent vintage of modern Wicca and Neopaganism:

Most 21st century Wiccans and Pagans are well aware of their short recent history, but all have a desire for a much deeper connection with the natural world than that provided by the prevailing Western cultural bias toward mind-body dualism that can be traced as far back as Plato. The medieval Roman Catholic Church had a short list of Greek philosophers it considered "virtuous pagans" whose contributions to their own developing worldview outweighed their pre-Christian paganism, and Plato was on it.

Deeply embedded in this Platonic worldview was the identification of mind and spirit with intelligence and the masculine. Conversely, the material world, especially the Earth, was identified with lack of intelligence and all things female including birth. Sacred was male; profane was female.

Theirs was not the whole story, of course. As long as people grew their own food and slaughtered their own animals, they were connected to the natural world. But the dominant religion fought against that feeling-connection with all its power: through Eve, women were the cause of men having to suffer in this world; and women deserved to suffer in childbirth because of it, as well as be forever subservient to men. Women were stained with blood (menses, childbirth) and dirt (being identified with the Earth itself); only men (a few) could ever attain the spiritual heights that would take them away from this terrible Earth.

Our culture has changed a lot since then, but the Industrial Revolution has divorced us even more from Nature. The vast majority of those who live in the Western cultural sphere now have little connection to the Earth and the seasons and the cycle of birth-death-rebirth that defines all living creatures. The power-elite find it easy to be completely disconnected from any contemplation of the consequences of their actions on the Earth or other people. Mind-games. Anyone far down the chain of worldly power can also escape via electronic media.... Everything in the mind,which has been desacralized too.

Wiccans and Neopagans are aware of how much of what they are doing is a process of invention. That doesn't make it false; it's simply what people do: change ritual over time so it fits needs better. The Roman Catholic Church itself did not spring fully formed from the head of St Peter, but evolved over millennia.

Seeing that the world is sick because of the actions of humanity, modern Wiccans choose to try to live in harmony with it and heal it. Seeing that the Earth was once revered as a goddess, modern Wiccans reach back to those times and find there is truth in that. Seeing that other religious systems have wisdom to offer, modern Wiccans -- now that they are unlikely to be mobbed and burned at the stake for heresy -- choose what will fit their own developing worldview. That does not make what they do either risible or false. It's what people do -- even an institution as venerable as the Roman Catholic Church.

As for the New Age movement: one of the key ways it differs from Neopaganism/Wicca is their feelings about mind-body dualism. New Agers are by and large still trying to get away from this world -- they are spirits traveling in bodies for awhile, but the bodies aren't really real, etc etc.

Wiccans and other Neopagans are right here and right now, and plan to be reborn in bodies that are as much who they are as their spirits are. Wiccans do ritual as the embodiment of what they believe, rituals vary by person and group, and are a creative act. Starhawk is one who lives her belief that a person should be fully engaged in what is going on in the world.

Some recommended reading for anyone who wants to go further:

• "Living in the Lap of the Goddess: The Feminist Spirituality Movement in America" by Cynthia Eller. A beautiful, scholarly, and dispassionate book by a non-practitioner.
• "Magical Religion and Modern Witchcraft" edited by James R. Lewis. Also scholarly, but hardly dispassionate: these essays are written mostly from the inside. For those who wonder what "ethics" could mean to those whose Rede is "If it harms none, do what you will," I particularly recommend Part IV: Ethics.
• "Ritual: Perspectives and Dimensions" by Catherine Bell is not about Wicca or Neopaganism, but is a well-rounded study of the place of ritual in society and how people create them for both sacred and secular uses. This may prove helpful to those who are not aware that humans are always inventing ritual, even those that seem unchanging were once created and have been changed over time.

Hekate

[Ignis]

26. That was definitely too good to waste.

Thanks for making the distinction clear between those who practice Earth-based religions and New Agers. Those two groups are far too often conflated on DU.

:thumbsup:

[boppers]

16. I see her point, but this is like a Baptist repudiating the Pope as "unchristian"

There are many magical traditions, loosely grouped together, that get confused by outsiders.

Some explicitly involve deities/forces that Christians refer to as "Satanic", other do not... I'm guessing the confusion is over the Horned God/Baphomet (many names, many traditions, but a similar theme):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_God

[Hekate]

20. Starhawk does not now and never has claimed to speak for all of NeoPaganism...

Nor does she disrespect those on an ethical path, whatever they call themselves.

As you state, there are many paths.

But since the idiot Repub claimed she had "dabbled in witchcraft" and had "a picnic on a Satanic altar... sprinkled with blood," I for one am very glad Starhawk spoke up to correct some of the more egregious superstitious prejudices the idiot Repub was playing off of.

Hekate

[boppers]

21. I would have asked her if she ate Cakes of Light.

:P

There is good to be found in all things, and in this, we have re-opened public dialog and discussion to smash myths and misconceptions.

[Ignis]

29. !

:spray:

Here's hoping she scarfed down a bunch of very traditional ones. :thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

17. Level of political discourse is disgusting...but it did provide this opportunity for your post -- !!

Thank you --

Always find it interesting to hear of the old traditions --

And would be nice to hear more sometime!

[InvisibleTouch]

18. I "dabbled" in witchcraft myself at one point...

...when I was 13 or so, meaning that I read some books with great interest, but ultimately found it too ritualized and confining for my tastes. But as I'm a big advocate of "taking what resonates with you and leaving the rest," I came away with a high regard for Wicca as a concept and a religion. Can't fault a worldview that recognizes the sacred, conscious nature of the Earth and all our fellow beings!

[AnnieBW]

19. Actually, Selena Fox spoke out the other day

Also Ivo Dominguez, who lives in Delaware and would be O'Donnell's constituent.

[G_j]

22. thank you, Star

nicely done!

[Hepburn]

23. Wow...makes me proud to be Wiccan. I am printing this article. n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

27. Thoughtful response.

K & R

[G_j]

39. kick

[WCGreen]

45. Here Here....

She just talked about it to show off... That is all she did... Bullshit then, bullshit now...

[Ignis]

50. Thanks for the support.

:fistbump:

[Rex]

47. Well I thought when she mentioned Satan and Witchcraft together

she was not 'practicing' as much as playing a role in some cheezy teen movie.

[Ignis]

49. A mention of polyhedral dice would have been a trifecta.

;)

[Codeine]

57. Blackleaf! NOOO! nt