It's not that Americans won't do migrant work. It's that they won't do migrant compensation.

[rocktivity]

It's very nice seeing Steve Colbert testifying on behalf of the migrant workers. But I feel that there's a 500-pound gorilla in the room: the real reason why Americans do not "take" migrant jobs is because they know how badly they would be paid and treated. Americans certainly would take those jobs if they provided worthwhile wages and decent work conditions, wouldn't they?

:shrug:
rocktivity

[Deep13]

1. The big farms need workers with no rights. nt

[Xenotime]

31. exactly. That way is somebody gets hurt, they can just cast them aside.

[spin]

52. In other words a slave class. (n/t)

[Brickbat]

2. Exactly. It's like the lie in "Roger and Me" that Americans don't want to make shoes.

No, Americans don't want to make shoes for crap wages that guard the disgusting amount of profits companies now feel they have to make and that are demanded by an elite group of shareholders. THAT's what Americans don't want to do.

And for that, Americans are punished by seeing their wages fall anyway, and being told that they MUST! BUY! those very shoes that are now made by people making crap wages, overseas.

[uncommon]

4. Americans work for companies that shit all over the world every day.

This argument really doesn't wash for me. We are hardly a nation of people who choose based on ideals. DUers, maybe. The population at large, not so much.

Working outside doing manual labor SUCKS. It's thankless work which garners no respect, it's hot and physically difficult, and if someone can work at Wal-Mart making the same or more money, they will do that 10 times out of 10.

[Brickbat]

6. See my response below.

[madmom]

14. So then those who do it for the sheer enjoyment of working the land means what? My

neighbor works a tremendously large "garden". It's just him and his wife, they are both senior citizens. His "garden" is about the size of a city block. His plants and cares for this all manually every year and gives the stuff away. He doesn't have too, he enjoys it. So I think there would be plenty of people who would rather work outside than in, granted not everyone, but still enough that if wages and conditions were better they would do it in a heart beat.

[uncommon]

25. I didn't say no one would do it -

my point is that I think there is some truth in the oft repeated "fact" that most Americans have no interest in toiling in the fields.

[madmom]

29. Um, it kinda looks like you did.....

"if someone can work at Wal-Mart making the same or more money, they will do that 10 times out of 10."

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. Question is, if the pay for working in the fields was 50% better than the

min wage job at Walmart, would people still choose Walmart?

It isn't just the work. It's the combination of the work, the low pay, the effort expected, the rewards accrued - and with equal pay (though I doubt it really is - is the any chance of advancement picking beans?) then working in a place where you don't risk pesticide poisoning, where you are in air conditioning in the heat of the summer, is an immeasurably better job than working the fields.

You want Americans to pick crops? Then make that job offer something to balance the air-conditioned big box store.

The fact is, you get LESS for your labor picking crops than working for minimum wage at Walmart.

[JVS]

33. There is a big difference between gardening and being hired to work a farm.

[madmom]

38. Well if you read my post it is not really a "garden" and I know the

difference. This guy has more than what a person would call a garden, it's huge and he still does it and gives stuff away, for the love of working the dirt.

[Hannah Bell]

41. there's a big difference in working your own garden under conditions of your own choosing,

at your own pace, with breaks whenever you feel like it, when you're retired, & working under someone else.

i'm sure you know that.

[madmom]

44. Isn't it the same as any other job? That's why it's called work, you take a break at break time, go

to lunch at lunch time. I have never worked a job where I could do whatever I felt like whenever I felt like it.

[Hannah Bell]

45. in a sense the same as every job, but the backbreaking labor & exposure to toxic chemical & bio-

hazards makes it more so.

let's just say your elderly neighbors couldn't cut it.

[madmom]

49. I'm not saying it isn't back breaking labor as well as being exposed to all kinds of things. I was

merely commenting on the fact that in post #4 it was said that..."Working outside doing manual labor SUCKS. It's thankless work which garners no respect, it's hot and physically difficult, and if someone can work at Wal-Mart making the same or more money, they will do that 10 times out of 10." I was just pointing out that, that was not necessarily true and it is not, some people would much rather work outside and in some cases actually enjoy it.

[Hannah Bell]

58. doing manual labor outside for *someone else* under their rules at low wages, yes, sucks

worse than working somewhere like walmart for the same wage. it's a lot harder & more dangerous. if i had the choice between doing stoop labor or tree-planting or working at walmart for the same wage, i'd choose walmart. i think most people would. it's easier physically.

[madmom]

60. Jeesh, just forget it, I'm not arguing, the point is not EVERYONE would!

[JVS]

55. I read your post, and if they were working for a boss that took all the food and gave them enough...

to buy 5% of it back, and this is only when working them like mules, they couldn't and wouldn't do it.

[madmom]

57. Look I have NOTHING against migrant workers. I know they have it rough. My post

was merely correcting a statement someone else had made prior to mine. See post #49. I don't know why people are misreading my posts, but they are and I have explained my intentions.

[dkf]

16. What happens if there are no more Walmart jobs?

Do Americans prefer no income at all to doing manual labor and should we provide for them because they don't want to do these types of jobs?

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. not wanting to work for crap wages is hardly a choice based on ideals.

It's based on "can I pay the rent like this"?

[uncommon]

3. "Decent working conditions" is the issue - not so much the pay.

Americans do all sorts of work for shit pay every day - it's not okay, but we do it. But the conditions of farm work are terrible. And frankly I don't see a way to make picking vegetables a more comfortable task. All the breaks in the world won't make the sun cooler, or bending up and down all day feel good.

[Brickbat]

5. Look at it like other physical labor.

Mining, construction, railroading...many of them have difficult to terrible working conditions, but higher compensation does definitely ease the pain. Good health care can also make it easier to get up at 4 a.m., sling drywall and breathe gypsum for 12 hours, and then come home and go to bed.

[closeupready]

10. My grandfather worked the land until he was physically unable, not because he needed the money.

He enjoyed it.

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but how can someone explain those who do farm work eagerly when they don't need the money?

[txaslftist]

18. During the last Great Depression my grandmother

picked peas on her honeymoon to help pay for the trip.

Once upon a time I was poor, and I had a full time job plus I threw the paper at night, because I had a baby at home who wouldn't have understood not having food because I didn't like the "working conditions". I ran on 4 hours of sleep a day, but I got it done.

No, working in hard conditions isn't "comfortable". The Mexicans do it here because they can make in a day what it takes them a week to make in Mexico (because we destroyed their economy, but that's another story).

And if you had to do it to feed your family or keep a roof over your head, you would do it.

Americans don't work menial jobs because they don't have to. As the economy changes, that may change, too.

I like to think most Americans I know could lower themselves to do the work they don't want. And frankly, if you are too good to pick beans or apples, you aren't worth much of a damn anyway.

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. if you are too good to pick beans or apples, you aren't worth much of a damn anyway.

Hear hear.

[JVS]

30. It would be unwise to perform strenuous labor for a wage that does not ensure good medical care.

Maybe for short stints when you need some money quick, but if you've made a career out of it at some point you're going to get injured and then between the loss of income while recovering and the medical expenses your're fucked. Not unlike Jurgis Rudkus realized in the meat packing yards. At some point in your 30s you'd hit the point where you're as strong as you're going to be, and that will leave you with still 30 odd years of trying to hack it with decreasing strength.

[txaslftist]

53. ... unless you need to eat.

Then wise doesn't come into it.

[JVS]

54. If you hope to eat past the age of 55, it's still unwise.

Only short stints. Any long-term engagement in this activity is a trap.

[old mark]

7. They want to get as close to slavery as they can...nt

[sinkingfeeling]

8. I was raised on a 140-acre farm in Ohio. Farm work is hard and dangerous. People on family

farms also earn less than minimum wage and usually have no health insurance.

[stray cat]

9. Would you do it for minimum wage?

[rocktivity]

13. No, because it requires more than minimum effort.

So why should a non-American do it for LESS than minimum wage--simply BECAUSE he's non-American?

:shrug:
rocktivity

[stray cat]

11. We need to double or triple the price of groceries and ensure a livable wage to workers

if we really care about decency we need to be willing to pay the prices that come with it and even campaign for those prices

the two go hand in hand - you can't have livable wages and cheap product

[HughBeaumont]

17. Will the CEOs make the same amount?

Dollars to low wages, they WILL.

[txaslftist]

19. If you double the price of food, what will they eat?

Those workers of yours?

[Hello_Kitty]

23. I don't think prices would go up as much as people think

The cheap labor lobby loves to push horror stories about $30 heads of lettuce but if the price went up that high people would stop buying it and they'd be forced to lower the price. Furthermore, it's funny how it rarely works the other way, with businesses passing the savings of labor costs onto customers.

[KittyWampus]

42. No, if it wasn't profitable enough for the agricultural giant to grow lettuce they'd just stop

They would not just lower the price.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. "If you take away our slaves, we'll stop growing lettuce!"

"We swear!"

[leveymg]

12. The prevailing wage in Sonoma, CA for ag workers is $13/hr

The prevailing wage in Sonoma, CA for ag workers is $13/hr

If you want a job in agriculture, there's work and it's not bad pay. But, it's backbreaking, and not many Americans can do it or want to. There's a reason for that. Here's the site, and here's the wage data: doleta.gov - http://icert.doleta.gov/index.cfm?event=ehRegister.PWSe...

Search Criteria
State/Territory:

california
Data Series and Source:

7/2010 – 6/2011
Collection Type:

All Industries
Area based on:

County/Township
Area Code:

42220
Area Title:

SANTA ROSA-PETALUMA, CA
Search Results
OES/SOC Title:

Agricultural Workers, All Other
OES/SOC Code:

45-2099
GeoLevel:

1
Wage Level 1 $12.92 Hour $26,874 Year
Wage Level 2 $14.21 Hour $29,557 Year
Wage Level 3 $15.49 Hour $32,219 Year
Wage Level 4 $16.78 Hour $34,902 Year
Code 45-2099.99
Title Agricultural Workers, All Other
Description All agricultural workers not listed separately.
O*Net JobZone No Zone Set
Education & Training Code No Code Set

[JVS]

15. Those numbers are ridiculous.

Wage Level 1 $12.92 Hour $26,874 Year
Wage Level 2 $14.21 Hour $29,557 Year
Wage Level 3 $15.49 Hour $32,219 Year
Wage Level 4 $16.78 Hour $34,902 Year

Since when do agricultural workers do 52 weeks of 40 hours?

[rocktivity]

22. Yes--realistically, those yearly salaries should be halved.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[Gormy Cuss]

24. In CA most can work year round, however I agree that those annualized numbers are ridiculous

as is stating their wages as hourly rates when most migrants are pickers paid by the piece or box. Also, Santa Rosa-Petaluma is a relatively high wage area compared to the Central Valley.
One other note: that includes both documented and undocumented employees. The ones who are legal residents or citizens probably earn more and they're not working for the cheapskates who expect people to work the hot fields all day without breaks or bathrooms.

[leveymg]

27. That's the guaranteed H-2A Temporary Ag Worker wage. It's contract work. US Citzs can also apply

Most of the contracts last 4-12 weeks, and you can apply for another gig before it runs out. On-site housing is supplied, although a lot of people prefer to stay in cheap, local motels.

It's pretty rough and grueling, but if you can hack it, one can save up a pretty nice bankroll.

If you want this work, get more info through the USDOL/ETA web site. All the contracts are listed and application is made through the local SESA (State jobs office). Go to: http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/taw.htm

[Blue Meany]

20. Why do immigrants do it? Here's one reason...

For about 10 years I had Mexican neighbor who was an illegal alien and was doing the kind low-pay jobs that others didn't want to do. But despite these low wages, he was making mortgage payments on a 40-acre ranch in Mexico, where he was going to live when it was paid off. I've heard of Salvadoran workers who were supporting families at a very good lifestyle back home, despite what was low pay and poor living and working conditions here.

The problem for American workers we don't have a low-cost home to go to. OTOH, I went to work in Hong Kong for a few years and saved the money to buy a house here.

[dkf]

28. +1000.

It is our housing costs that make wages unlivable.

[leveymg]

32. That is correct. Two of the reasons so many working Americans can't make it are bloated housing

and health care costs. The real estate bubble blow-out brought prices down somewhat, but to achieve parity with most other western countries they need to fall another 25%, and we need a national health system or a 50% drop in private insurance premiums.

Those two industries are politically powerful, and are making the rest of the American economy unlivable, unsustainable and uncompetitive.

[Greyhound]

36. And every effort since the great robbery has been bent toward propping up those false valuations.

They have to because if they let them fall to true market values (what they could actually sell for), the "banks" that use those valuations to meet reserve requirements would become insolvent and the scam falls apart.

[shireen]

21. maybe the problem is that it's seasonal work

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't 'migrant worker' imply seasonal worker?
For a few months per year, varies from state to state, it's hard back-breaking work. They don't get paid to work for the rest of the time when it's winter or the plants are growing to maturity. It may even be non-guaranteed work if crops fail. That's not practical for Americans who need full-time jobs.

If that's the case, making them 'legal' will give those migrant workers more leverage to exercise their rights, work reasonable hours, and get paid a fair wage.

Anyhow, big farms are generally unsustainable. Unless we change our food production methods, we're in for a big problem with diminishing resources, increasing fuel costs, and an increasing population. But that's a different problem.

[leveymg]

34. Most migrant workers work year-round. They move from place-to-place.

That's what makes them "migrants", not their immigration status.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. and they make no money while they are on the road, and have to

pay for motels (12 to a room) meals, gas, with no money coming in, using up what they earned at their last job. If they're lucky, the next job is within a day or two's drive. Having a family and no fixed address is not inexpensive.

[veganlush]

26. but everyone would whine

...when they shop for produce and have to pay more for it at the checkout line..buying local from the farmer's market is the answer much of the time..

[customerserviceguy]

35. Someday

all farm work will be done by machines. Illegal immigration pushes that day farther into the future.

[Nikki Stone1]

37. Some might in this economy.

I wouldn't rule out Americans so fast. But in general, your point in the OP is well taken.

[littlewolf]

39. that is it ...

the working conditions there isn't much you can do about except safety issues .... ( I am a farm boy ...) hot field work is hot field work ....
not much to do about it .... the pay issue is what it is about ....

[krispos42]

40. You mean Americans have a sense of pride and inheirent self-worth?

Still?


Shit. Somebody call the Heritage Foundation, the CEI, and the USCC and tell them Reaganomics is STILL not fully implemented! :grr:

[treestar]

51. Not if they could get better ones, though

But that's why they should give visas, make them legal. Then there is no reason to prefer them, so to speak.

Immigrants have always done the hard jobs, or the ones on the bottom rung and then moved up.

[MellowDem]

56. Exactly...

and Colbert completely misses that point. His position, whether he realizes it or not, is to have an underclass of people to be exploited so we can have cheap food. As if that is the only way to pick food from the land. Ever think of raising the prices?

[Canuckistanian]

59. And you're saying... what?

That "Americans" won't take jobs that are beneath them, EVER?

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, if "real Americans" started taking these jobs.... wouldn't there be changes.... like maybe (I don't know) HIGHER WAGES for work DONE in America?